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"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 07:34 PM
I have a negative view of the USA but would love to go and live/work there
I have a negative view of the USA and would not go and live/work there
I have a postive view of the USA

This poll is for non-United States Citizens only, so anyone from the rest of America can vote. I suppose the vote is open to People from United States commonwealths. I hope I did the poll options correctly otherwise it will not be in the form of a poll.

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 07:38 PM
I have both a positive and negative view of the US, I guess I could and would work and live there, but not for the rest of my life and not in just any part. I love NY, love Chicago, love Boston, I could live in those cities. LA, Texas? No thanks.

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 07:45 PM
please excuse the first 3 lines of my thread. its the first poll i ever posted and i did not intend that text to be there.

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Iím not against American culture, just American policy
See all the Americans on this board that rubbish the country Iíd shoot the fuckin lot

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 08:00 PM
ok, i know youre out there. when my wife and i waited for countless days in immigration lines in New York we met zillions of people who didnt like the USA and Americans but were trying like hell to get green cards. come on, show yourselves...

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 08:11 PM
Well I love America and most Americans

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 08:14 PM
Merci Merci DD - Just having a little fun!

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 08:17 PM
lol DD don't own up to reading my posts (there would be a wink here but I don't do winks)

Martian Willow
May 9th, 2004, 08:40 PM
...I always enjoy the irony when Americans claim the only reason people are negative about America is because they are jealous...thus displaying precisely the kind of small minded arrogance people are accusing Americans of in the first place...I don't have a problem with America but it's a long way from the top of my list of countries I'd like to live or work in... :)

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 08:53 PM
can i get that in writing Willow? I dont claim Americans are jealous. But America is by far the country where people from other nations most want to go to fulfill their dreams. That or the UK, Canda or France I suppose. I am sure you are well in the minority.

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 08:54 PM
I meant to say i dont claim that people from other nations are jealous of Americans, not 'Americans are jealous'.

strike86
May 9th, 2004, 08:56 PM
I like Americans and I like Bush. I know quite a few Brits that are like me.

saki
May 9th, 2004, 08:57 PM
can i get that in writing Willow? I dont claim Americans are jealous. But America is by far the country where people from other nations most want to go to fulfill their dreams. That or the UK, Canda or France I suppose. I am sure you are well in the minority.:lol: :lol: I'm sorry, but you're being ridiculous here. Plenty of people *gasp* rather like the countries they currently live in. The reason why people like to emigrate to the U.S. is because it's the only first world country that welcomes immigrants. Europe is, on the whole, much too densely populated to take in vast numbers of immigrants. Quality of life is, in many people's opinion, much nicer in Europe.

Edited to add - I also agree with Willow's point that this "people are just jealous of us" attitude exhibited by Americans doesn't for some reason make Americans better liked.

It's not that I don't like Americans - my boyfriend of 1.5 years is an American ex-pat - but the idea that the U.S.A. is the paradise that all people aspire to is just rubbish. I happen to really like Europe in terms of culture, lifestyle and politics. I don't find the lack of history in the U.S. appealing, I don't like the "screw the planet, I'll drive everywhere" lifestyle and I most emphatically don't like U.S. politics right now. That's not to say that I'm rabidly anti-American, but it's not somewhere I would want to live at least not until it's politics are less driven by the Christian right and it develops a foreign policy that isn't completely guided by self-interest. Individual Americans are often :cool: and especially my lovely boyfriend, but I've no desire to live or work in the U.S.

Mateo Mathieu
May 9th, 2004, 08:57 PM
I only like one thing about USA is Hollywood, that's all. Yes, I'm a movie buff and as well as interested in acting.

Martian Willow
May 9th, 2004, 09:00 PM
I meant to say i dont claim that people from other nations are jealous of Americans, not 'Americans are jealous'.

...but you're not American...?...I'm saying Americans often claim other people only slag of America(ns) because the other people are jealous...which is a perfect example of the narrow minded arrogance they are often being slagged off for... :)

Josh
May 9th, 2004, 09:02 PM
I prefer Europe to live in because there's a certain "joie de vivre" you won't find in America. Probably because history is much more physically present in the shape of medieval cities, ruins from Antiquity or Renaissance art work. No doubt I could live in the US (preferably the East Coast) but I would feel somewhat "disconnected".

Martian Willow
May 9th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Bill Barrat has a simple dream
He calls it his Plan B
Where there are buildings in the sky
And the air is sugar free
And everyone's very friendly
Well, Plan B arrived on a holiday
He took a cab to the shopping malls
Bought and ate till he could do neither any more
Then found love on Channel 44
La la la la la
He wants to go to magic America
La la la la la
He'd like to live in magic America
With all those magic people
Bill Barrat sent his postcards home
To everyone he'd ever known
They went
"Fifty-nine cents gets you a good square meal
From the people who care how you feel"
La la la la la
He wants to go to magic America
La la la la la
He'd like to live in magic America
With all those magic people.

:)

*JR*
May 9th, 2004, 09:03 PM
I like Americans and I like Bush. I know quite a few Brits that are like me.
OMG, BAN THIS PERSON IMMEDIATELY! :devil:

strike86
May 9th, 2004, 09:05 PM
OMG, BAN THIS PERSON IMMEDIATELY! :devil:
I am not the only person from outside America with this view theres bound to be a few others.

P.S Are you a Yank?

saki
May 9th, 2004, 09:06 PM
I prefer Europe to live in because there's a certain "joie de vivre" you won't find in America. Probably because history is much more physically present in the shape of medieval cities, ruins from Antiquity or Renaissance art work. No doubt I could live in the US (preferably the East Coast) but I would feel somewhat "disconnected".
I tried to explain this to my American relatives but they just didn't get it. I think the physical presence of history is possibly something that you just don't get the appeal of if you haven't grown up with it around you. When I'm in the U.S. I feel as though everything is just too new and shiny and therefore somehow temporary. It genuinely unnerves me, but the Americans I've talked to think it's a trivial concern.

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 09:07 PM
strike86 I agree with you, I also like Bush

*JR*
May 9th, 2004, 09:07 PM
I am not the only person from outside America with this view theres bound to be a few others.

P.S Are you a Yank?
Well, um, er.... OK I admit, Lord have mercy on me! :lol:

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 09:08 PM
:lol: :lol: I'm sorry, but you're being ridiculous here. Plenty of people *gasp* rather like the countries they currently live in. The reason why people like to emigrate to the U.S. is because it's the only first world country that welcomes immigrants. Europe is, on the whole, much tLet me oo densely populated to take in vast numbers of immigrants. Quality of life is, in many people's opinion, much nicer in Europe.

Let me rephrase that Saki. Of course plenty of people love their country of origin. Of course. My best friend lived in the States for years but still loves his home country of Canada. I dont hold it against him. But for Europeans the United States is the country they have their eyes on for study, for travel, etc etc. Students in france dream about coming to the USA. They fall in love with New York and San Francisco and other cities, like the way we love London and Paris. Im not saying the USA is better than anywhere else. Its just the First choice destination for soooooooooooo many people if they could live there, they would, at least for a semester or a year. To deny that is ridiculous. It is a primary focus for entrepeneurs, for immigrants, for art, movies, etc etc. People are clammering to get in. Why do you have trouble accepting that fact? And ive met plenty of people who dont like America at all, but want to work here and send their money home or worse. You got plenty of people that hate America and what it stands for on the whole, butd love to go and work there spitting in the soup the entire time.

saki
May 9th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Let me rephrase that Saki. Of course plenty of people love their country of origin. Of course. My best friend lived in the States for years but still loves his home country of Canada. I dont hold it against him. But for Europeans the United States is the country they have their eyes on for study, for travel, etc etc. Students in france dream about coming to the USA. They fall in love with New York and San Francisco and other cities, like the way we love London and Paris. Im not saying the USA is better than anywhere else. Its just the First choice destination for soooooooooooo many people if they could live there, they would, at least for a semester or a year. To deny that is ridiculous. It is a primary focus for entrepeneurs, for immigrants, for art, movies, etc etc. People are clammering to get in. Why do you have trouble accepting that fact? And ive met plenty of people who dont like America at all, but want to work here and send their money home or worse. You got plenty of people that hate America and what it stands for on the whole, butd love to go and work there spitting in the soup the entire time.
I have trouble accepting your "fact" because it's not true. The vast majority of Europeans haven't applied for Green Cards. Until you give me a source that shows that the majority of Europeans have tried to emigrate, I don't see why I should accept your assertion.

Josh
May 9th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Let me rephrase that Saki. Of course plenty of people love their country of origin. Of course. My best friend lived in the States for years but still loves his home country of Canada. I dont hold it against him. But for Europeans the United States is the country they have their eyes on for study, for travel, etc etc. Students in france dream about coming to the USA. They fall in love with New York and San Francisco and other cities, like the way we love London and Paris. Im not saying the USA is better than anywhere else. Its just the First choice destination for soooooooooooo many people if they could live there, they would, at least for a semester or a year. To deny that is ridiculous. It is a primary focus for entrepeneurs, for immigrants, for art, movies, etc etc. People are clammering to get in. Why do you have trouble accepting that fact? And ive met plenty of people who dont like America at all, but want to work here and send their money home or worse. You got plenty of people that hate America and what it stands for on the whole, butd love to go and work there spitting in the soup the entire time.

There are certainly European students who want to go to the States but the vast majority of them would rather study in another European country. Countries like France, UK, Italy, Spain and Germany are all very popular destinations.

alwayshingis
May 9th, 2004, 09:16 PM
I am a British native, but I moved to LA this year and am going to college here. I am considered a "crazy-ass-liberal" here by some people, but for the most part most of the people I know are not big conservatives (which is mostly due to the fact that i am around a bunch of 19-22 year olds and am in an urban center) but from what I can see, you don't encounter rabid Americans unless you go to the center of the country. There are anti-Bush protests here EVERYDAY. The overwhelming opinion I get from people here is - "I wish I could be patriotic and love my country, but the government has made loving America synonymous with loving war, and that's just sad"

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 09:18 PM
I think that if there's one non-European country where Europeans would like to live, it's Australia.

Colin B
May 9th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Sorry to fuck up your poll, Paul but:


OTHER: - (No offence intended but) I am, by and large, ambivalent to America and it's society and have no current desire to go and live there.


;)

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 09:21 PM
There are more Europeans wishing to live in the USA than, there are Americans wishing to live in Europe

Martian Willow
May 9th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Sorry to fuck up your poll, Paul but:


OTHER: - (No offence intended but) I am, by and large, ambivalent to America and it's society and have no current desire to go and live there.


;)

...that's pretty much what I said...perhaps we're not such a minority after all... :)

Martian Willow
May 9th, 2004, 09:23 PM
There are more Europeans wishing to live in the USA than, there are Americans wishing to live in Europe

...there are more Europeans wishing to live in the USA than there are Americans who know what or where Europe is... :)

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 09:25 PM
There are more Europeans wishing to live in the USA than, there are Americans wishing to live in Europe

and you base this on...?

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 09:30 PM
It's based on the number of people wishing to relocate

Dava
May 9th, 2004, 09:31 PM
You know its something I would like to do for a couple of years, and then maybe go back home if got bored of it, or it was to much for me. I do have a negative view of america but really its only politically, I mean I have a lot of ameircan friends and they seem nice enough ;). My real life best friend is also American.

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 09:32 PM
I wasnt saying that all europeans are applying for green cards. It is just the choice spot for people who WANT to work and study abroad and the choice spot for businesses wanting to market their products etc etc. Not that EVERYONE WANTS TO LIVE IN AMERICA CAUSE WE ARE THE BEST and everyone is applying for greencards. But if they were giving out redemption tickets granting rights to people and their decendants for american citizenship, it would cause the same type of stampede as Anna Kournikova giving out free $#&*$^s.

Europe is great! I have lived more than 2 years in europe since coming here. I agree europe is charming and i also agree with josh that there is a certain joie de vivre. As far as quality of life i also agree for the most part. you can eat and live well on about the same amount of money. You Get 5 weeks vaca in france, i dont know about other nations. Also you can travel around europe in comfort in hours. Both me and my wife make 25% less here and in some cases its 50% less. you get more vaca time but less money to spend on vaca so its a trade off with the States. oh yeah, Girls are much prettier in the US especially California Girls!

strike86
May 9th, 2004, 09:35 PM
I wasnt saying that all europeans are applying for green cards. It is just the choice spot for people who WANT to work and study abroad and the choice spot for businesses wanting to market their products etc etc. Not that EVERYONE WANTS TO LIVE IN AMERICA CAUSE WE ARE THE BEST and everyone is applying for greencards. But if they were giving out redemption tickets granting rights to people and their decendants for american citizenship, it would cause the same type of stampede as Anna Kournikova giving out free $#&*$^s.

Europe is great! I have lived more than 2 years in europe since coming here. I agree europe is charming and i also agree with josh that there is a certain joie de vivre. As far as quality of life i also agree for the most part. you can eat and live well on about the same amount of money. You Get 5 weeks vaca in france, i dont know about other nations. Also you can travel around europe in comfort in hours. Both me and my wife make 25% less here and in some cases its 50% less. you get more vaca time but less money to spend on vaca so its a trade off with the States. oh yeah, Girls are much prettier in the US especially California Girls!

What do you mean by Europe the continent or countries in the EU?

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 09:36 PM
There are certainly European students who want to go to the States but the vast majority of them would rather study in another European country. Countries like France, UK, Italy, Spain and Germany are all very popular destinations.

Because its less expensive, ie, no plane tickets, too far away etc etc.

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 09:37 PM
Look, see if everyone on the planet had a vote there would be an overall majority of people wishing to live in the USA, Europe would be like 4th or 5th on everyones ballot, thats considering it was a ballot and not a show of hands

Josh
May 9th, 2004, 09:42 PM
I wasnt saying that all europeans are applying for green cards. It is just the choice spot for people who WANT to work and study abroad and the choice spot for businesses wanting to market their products etc etc. Not that EVERYONE WANTS TO LIVE IN AMERICA CAUSE WE ARE THE BEST and everyone is applying for greencards. But if they were giving out redemption tickets granting rights to people and their decendants for american citizenship, it would cause the same type of stampede as Anna Kournikova giving out free $#&*$^s.

Europe is great! I have lived more than 2 years in europe since coming here. I agree europe is charming and i also agree with josh that there is a certain joie de vivre. As far as quality of life i also agree for the most part. you can eat and live well on about the same amount of money. You Get 5 weeks vaca in france, i dont know about other nations. Also you can travel around europe in comfort in hours. Both me and my wife make 25% less here and in some cases its 50% less. you get more vaca time but less money to spend on vaca so its a trade off with the States. oh yeah, Girls are much prettier in the US especially California Girls!

The fact that you earn less here is mostly because of taxes. But in return everyone gets excellent health care, not just those who can pay it.

I think both (Western; sorry to my new fellow Europeans from the east and central ;)) Europe and North America (USA & Canada) are popular places for foreigners to migrate to, whether it is for studies or work. I see a lot of people asking for asylum in Europe, mainly from Africa, Eastern Europe and the Middle East while North America mostly get South Americans and Asians. So really, both must have a certain appeal around the world.

About the US being the first choice for businesses...I doubt it. In recent years most companies, both American and European eye the new fast-growing markets in Asia cause that's where the growth potential is. And you would be surprised how much of a stampede would be if the EU started to hand out visa and passports. ;)

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 09:42 PM
What do you mean by Europe the continent or countries in the EU?

strike - ask Josh, i was just adding to what he said that Europe has a certain joie de vie. i only know france. havent traveled anywhere else in Europe but france since like 12 years. i only know france. Nothing beats new york for me, but i love to fish, and the beach, nightclubs, restaurants, baseball, things you cant do in france. at least paris. ive already vowed not to fish in the seine but ill probably break that vow. But France is still great too. i love it here.

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 09:45 PM
right josh - now we ship the stuff to Asia, they do the manual labor and sell it back to us when its finished. i didnt mean american maufacturing, more the American market. We have a lot of buying power.

Josh
May 9th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Because its less expensive, ie, no plane tickets, too far away etc etc.

Of all the people I know not one has expressed their wish to study in the States. Certainly the reasons you mentioned are valid but most Europeans would rather discover another European country. I understand that you think otherwise because of the past immigration wave to the US and the fact that the image of the American Dream is still very much kept alive among Americans.

Colin B
May 9th, 2004, 09:49 PM
Look, see if everyone on the planet had a vote there would be an overall majority of people wishing to live in the USA, Europe would be like 4th or 5th on everyones ballot, thats considering it was a ballot and not a show of handsI totally disagree. I think most people would vote to live in a place they imagine is more 'ideal' than where they live now.
Many British people already choose to live in the Dordogne (France), The Algarve (Portugal), Andalucia (Spain) and yes, Florida (USA). Many, given the choice, also move to Cornwall and The Lake District (UK).

We all have our 'utopias'; many of us find them but they're NOT all in America!

;)

Josh
May 9th, 2004, 09:50 PM
right josh - now we ship the stuff to Asia, they do the manual labor and sell it back to us when its finished. i didnt mean american maufacturing, more the American market. We have a lot of buying power.

I didn't just mean manufacturing, fact is that certain Asian economies are growing at incredible speeds and they offer potential gigantic markets (just think of China) so it is important to be present there to create possibilities to conquer those markets.

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 09:52 PM
Josh - i get your point. I meet a lot of international attorneys. they all want American law degrees. Of course European cities are perfect too. i didnt mean to say America was the only place to go. And again you are inciteful, cause i also had to apply 4 separate time for a green card for my one and only wife... making it seem like everyone is trying to enter NYC. Ciao

Josh
May 9th, 2004, 09:53 PM
strike - ask Josh, i was just adding to what he said that Europe has a certain joie de vie. i only know france. havent traveled anywhere else in Europe but france since like 12 years. i only know france. Nothing beats new york for me, but i love to fish, and the beach, nightclubs, restaurants, baseball, things you cant do in france. at least paris. ive already vowed not to fish in the seine but ill probably break that vow. But France is still great too. i love it here.

OMG have you even gone outside of your home in Paris? :tape:
You're the first person ever to say that you can't go to a restaurant in France. :o And they have some of the best beaches around and I can't believe you haven't found a nightclub yet in Paris.

saki
May 9th, 2004, 09:54 PM
The fact that you earn less here is mostly because of taxes. But in return everyone gets excellent health care, not just those who can pay it.

I think both (Western; sorry to my new fellow Europeans from the east and central ;)) Europe and North America (USA & Canada) are popular places for foreigners to migrate to, whether it is for studies or work. I see a lot of people asking for asylum in Europe, mainly from Africa, Eastern Europe and the Middle East while North America mostly get South Americans and Asians. So really, both must have a certain appeal around the world.

About the US being the first choice for businesses...I doubt it. In recent years most companies, both American and European eye the new fast-growing markets in Asia cause that's where the growth potential is. And you would be surprised how much of a stampede would be if the EU started to hand out visa and passports. ;)
:worship: I agree. Still waiting for some evidence other than "I say so" for thinking that the U.S. would be the top destination if free passports were being handed out. Aslyum applications certainly don't bear out what Paul is saying, but rather what Josh is saying - that Europe is the #1 destination for countries with historical links to Europe.

arn
May 9th, 2004, 09:54 PM
I never really considered working in the states, and I would never want to live there for the rest of my life. Like Tine already said, Australia is much more appealing, so are other countries in Europe.
I'm interested in knowing the numbers if Europeans asking for a green card in the states. Probably more people from the Balkan, Russia,... are asking for a green card then countries like France, Italy,.... because even though you can make more money in the states, the social security system is way better in Europe.

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 09:59 PM
Colin B - Im not talking about a load of old coffin dodgers

What I find amazing is that so many people from America seem to have formed an opinion on a country they have never been to, especially the ones from America who havne't left their bedroms within the last 3-4 years since they purchased a computer

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 09:59 PM
It's based on the number of people wishing to relocate

care to post a link? It's not because you THINK everyone wants to move the US that it's an actual fact. Yes, I wouldn't mind living in the US for a while, not because it's my dream country, just because of the experience of living in another country. If I could choose between all the countries in the world, Australia seems the most appealing, but like Josh said, I think I'd miss the history too much, the old quant little squares, the fact that towns and villages have a real 'centre' where people gather, sit down to have a drink and chat. I'd miss the food culture we have, going to a restaurant and spending the entire evening there, enjoying the food, the wine and the company.

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 10:02 PM
What I find amazing is that so many people from America seem to have formed an opinion on a country they have never been to, especially the ones from America who havne't left their bedroms within the last 3-4 years since they purchased a computer

:lol: I think a lot more Europeans have travelled to the US than vice versa. I know many Americans who've never left the US.

Giuliano
May 9th, 2004, 10:02 PM
I've never been to the States so I don't know if I would "love" to live there, but I've never been particularly attracted to it (them?). Of course, I would like to go there on a vacation but I feel good in Europe. So many cultures and so much history in such a little area. I don't think I would give that up.

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 10:03 PM
gentenaire - If could post a link I would but I don't know how to but take my word for it , buts its a well known fact that when surveyed 89% of the European population wished to relocate to the USA for a better way of life and a secure future

Tompier
May 9th, 2004, 10:04 PM
I think that if there's one non-European country where Europeans would like to live, it's Australia.

:yeah: you are right

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 10:05 PM
gentenaire - thats a valid point you make, why would Americans wish to leave American? It's far superior to Europe

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 10:06 PM
gentenaire - If could post a link I would but I don't know how to but take my word for it , buts its a well known fact that when surveyed 89% of the European population wished to relocate to the USA for a better way of life and a secure future

Take your word for it? Against what I see with my own eyes? LMAO!

Giuliano
May 9th, 2004, 10:06 PM
gentenaire - If could post a link I would but I don't know how to but take my word for it , buts its a well known fact that when surveyed 89% of the European population wished to relocate to the USA for a better way of life and a secure future
89%? Come on now. Which part of the population was surveyed? The young generations, I suppose?

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 10:08 PM
gentenaire - thats a valid point you make, why would Americans wish to leave American? It's far superior to Europe


Have you ever been to Europe? Do us all a favour and stay in the US, okay?

Colin B
May 9th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Colin B - Im not talking about a load of old coffin dodgersNeither am I!

There are many British people, with many years ahead in their careers who actually commute from (for instance) Barcelona. It takes them about as long to fly into Docklands (central London airport) as it does to drive in from Surrey, although most will commute on a Monday to Thursday basis.
And with many people working from home nowadays, ther isn't always a need to commute.

:)

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 10:11 PM
89%? Come on now. Which part of the population was surveyed? The young generations, I suppose?

no one, he made it up! He's like the politicians of the far right party here, inventing stats and figures to prove their point, unable to back up their claims with any real references or links. Sad thing about the far right party is that by the time it's established that what they said is false, it's too late. People heard in the live interview that "___are responsible for ___% of ___" and they presume it's true. It's a clever but dangerous tactic.

arn
May 9th, 2004, 10:11 PM
gentenaire - If could post a link I would but I don't know how to but take my word for it , buts its a well known fact that when surveyed 89% of the European population wished to relocate to the USA for a better way of life and a secure future
89%, that's certainly not true, I know close to nobody wanting to relocate to the USA. I'm sure this is a very old stat, from the period the american dream was still alive.
Even that secure future you talk about in the stated is bs, I'm sure the poverty rate in Europe is lower as in the states.

Martian Willow
May 9th, 2004, 10:11 PM
:tape: :lol:

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 10:13 PM
I'm sure this is a very old stat, from the period the american dream was still alive.

from the 18th century, maybe ;)

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 10:14 PM
This thread is so symptomatic of this message board. Itís full of people commenting on subjects they know nothing about. Why donít you all leave your bedrooms and go out for a while, try and make some friends, better still go visit the USA, see what itís like for yourself, instead of having a vivid imagination of what you think itís like. Next thing youíll be telling all how to solve the problems in the Middle East.

Giuliano
May 9th, 2004, 10:15 PM
no one, he made it up! He's like the politicians of the far right party here, inventing stats and figures to prove their point, unable to back up their claims with any real references or links. Sad thing about the far right party is that by the time it's established that what they said is false, it's too late. People heard in the live interview that "___are responsible for ___% of ___" and they presume it's true. It's a clever but dangerous tactic.
Ah, I wanted to see what he was going to come up with. I'm not that gullible. ;) Like arn, I don't know anybody who wants to move to the States. Not because they "hate" America, but it just never crosses their mind.

Colin B
May 9th, 2004, 10:15 PM
care to post a link? It's not because you THINK everyone wants to move the US that it's an actual fact. Yes, I wouldn't mind living in the US for a while, not because it's my dream country, just because of the experience of living in another country. If I could choose between all the countries in the world, Australia seems the most appealing, but like Josh said, I think I'd miss the history too much, the old quant little squares, the fact that towns and villages have a real 'centre' where people gather, sit down to have a drink and chat. I'd miss the food culture we have, going to a restaurant and spending the entire evening there, enjoying the food, the wine and the company.Tine :wavey: - Add to that the likelihood of not getting shot at*!



:lol:

* sorry but if s/he's going to be provocative - so can I!

;)

decemberlove
May 9th, 2004, 10:17 PM
gentenaire - thats a valid point you make, why would Americans wish to leave American? It's far superior to Europe
i know plenty of americans who would love to live in europe for a while . or atleast visit

some americans [the educated ones atleast] have a desire to experience the world . europe has so much culture . history . beautiful architecture . america is a YOUNG country . it just doesnt offer the experience that europe does

*JR*
May 9th, 2004, 10:18 PM
The following enlightening conversation was picked up by Barnie Cam, as Barney the First Dog taped the president and his chief of staff...

Mr. President, I have some rather troubling news for you -- it seems that a shifting of the poles is inevitable. We may have to rethink our environmental slash and burn policy in case the world turns upside down under your leadership.

For chrissake, Andy -- we know the Greens have no impact on the election, and the Dems have about as much concern for the environment as I do... No way will I change policy and risk alienating my big contributors.

Excuse me Mr. President. I didn't say that the POLLS were shifting, I said that the POLES were shifting. Some electromagnetic imbalance or something that will make north, south and south, north. I don't quite understand it...

Well, as a southerner, I'm doing well in the north, so what difference will it make? The world's eating out of my hands right now, Andy. But maybe it'll light a fire under Canada to support us better, and get Mexico to chill a bit -- heh heh heh... Hey, what about them Poles -- how can we pressure them to send some more troops to Iraq? Our kids need a break there...

They've sent 2,500 troops already. And with one casualty, their polls show the majority of citizens oppose Poland's presence in Iraq. I doubt we can get any more...

How can one casualty polarize a country, Andy? Don't they know this is a noble fight against evil? Tell 'em to stop the body count.

I didn't come to talk about Poland, Mr. President...

...Anyway, all this proves that we need to decrease our reliance on electricity and magnets, and get that oil out of Iraq before the polls -- I mean the POLES, close. Seems I'm gonna have to put on my Santa suit and drop in to Baghdad again at Christmas. Which pole does Santa take off from if the poles shift, Andy?

Good question, Mr. President -- I'll get to work on that right away...

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 10:18 PM
This thread is so symptomatic of this message board. Itís full of people commenting on subjects they know nothing about. .

True. I mean, what do Europeans know about how Europeans think? Surely that's something Americans know better, right?

upperkut
May 9th, 2004, 10:24 PM
Paul, your thread has become a US x Europe bash fest... if the old saying "home is where the heart is" is true, then I reckon that most people would be unhappy anywhere if not followed by their relative or loved ones... don't believe me? just ask the millions of poor immigrants that crowd the streets of New York, LA, London and Paris, working hard for low wages, usually undocumented and alone if they are happy with their lives... you might even say that they have a choice to go back to their own countries, but considering the widespread poverty and sometimes violence, do they really? what i am trying to say is that everyplace has its perks and hurdles, to ask which place is better is personal and subjective..

emptyhead
May 9th, 2004, 10:25 PM
lol gentenaire Im not making anything up how dare you

JollyRoger, could you please post your own ideas and thoughts. Look I know we'll laugh at what you say but, we'll let on we're really interested in what you have to say.

Fact: More planes leave for Destination USA, than destination Europe, just check out the stats at all the airports. meaning that more people are going to the USA.

Veritas
May 9th, 2004, 10:26 PM
I love America, Americans and New York in general, so yeah, I guess I wouldn't mind living and working in the States ;)

strike86
May 9th, 2004, 10:29 PM
I love America, Americans and New York in general, so yeah, I guess I wouldn't mind living and working in the States ;)

I feel the same as well.

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Fact: More planes leave for Destination USA, than destination Europe, just check out the stats at all the airports. meaning that more people are going to the USA.

All the planes that head for the USA also go back. So if those figures are true (which they could be, the USA is a big country after all), it means that more people are leaving the US than that there are people leaving Europe ;)
Basically, this stat means NOTHING!

Colin B
May 9th, 2004, 10:30 PM
Fact: More planes leave for Destination USA, than destination Europe, just check out the stats at all the airports. meaning that more people are going to the USA.OMG - They must be full of "forn terrsts n' enmies o' freedm!!!!!!"


:scared: :scared:

harloo
May 9th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Everyone knows they want to come and live in America. Many people risk their lives to get here because their is opportunity. I have negative views of some things in this country, but what person can say they are proud of everything that happens in their home land?

I would not want to live in any other country. I have visited a few countries, and while I did enjoy my time there I prefer to live in the USof A.:D

Colin B
May 9th, 2004, 10:36 PM
OMG - They must be full of "forn terrsts n' enmies o' freedm!!!!!!"




:scared: :scared:
Sorry everyone - poor taste! (but somebody's asking fot it ;) )!



:rolleyes:



Lashings of apologies



:o

Giuliano
May 9th, 2004, 10:37 PM
Everyone knows they want to come and live in America. Many people risk their lives to get here because their is opportunity. I have negative views of some things in this country, but what person can say they are proud of everything that happens in their home land?

I would not want to live in any other country. I have visited a few countries, and while I did enjoy my time there I prefer to live in the USof A.:D
No, not everyone. Many people but not everyone.

arn
May 9th, 2004, 10:38 PM
lol gentenaire Im not making anything up how dare you

JollyRoger, could you please post your own ideas and thoughts. Look I know we'll laugh at what you say but, we'll let on we're really interested in what you have to say.

Fact: More planes leave for Destination USA, than destination Europe, just check out the stats at all the airports. meaning that more people are going to the USA.
Planes also fly back more, so people are leaving the USA more as they leave europe :tape: (logic, don't you love it? :drool: )

arn
May 9th, 2004, 10:40 PM
All the planes that head for the USA also go back. So if those figures are true (which they could be, the USA is a big country after all), it means that more people are leaving the US than that there are people leaving Europe ;)
Basically, this stat means NOTHING!
damn, you beat me to it ;)

arn
May 9th, 2004, 10:55 PM
Some stats :)

http://www.whyy.org/immigrants/images/factfiles3.gif



This chart shows the number of immigrants admitted nationally in 1996 for each of the "top ten" countries (of birth) that year:

Countries Number Admitted All countries 915, 900 1. Mexico 163, 572 2. Philippines 55, 876 3. India 44, 859 4. Vietnam 42, 067 5. China 41, 728 6. Dominican Republic 39, 604 7. Cuba 26, 466 8. Ukraine 21, 079 9. Russia 19, 668 10. Jamaica 19, 089 http://www.whyy.org/immigrants/images/factfiles4.gif

saki
May 9th, 2004, 10:55 PM
True. I mean, what do Europeans know about how Europeans think? Surely that's something Americans know better, right?
:worship: Apparently, our American friends know that we hate our countries and are trying to get out. Amazingly, they even know this without any evidence or cite at all. Americans are so clever that everything they say is true and they don't need to prove it. Right, I'm moving to the U.S. - it would make my PhD so much easier if all my assertions were 100% accurate with no supporting evidence. :rolleyes:

strike86
May 9th, 2004, 11:00 PM
I agree Saki.

flyingmachine
May 9th, 2004, 11:07 PM
sorry paul, but it's not gonna happen. if you were an american like volcana asking for negativity you'd get it in droves. although your survey makes much more sense and doesn't exhibit the bias that say...a less intelligent survey would exhibit...the fact is, most people won't admit to liking america or wanting to live there. especially on this board where the vast majority of the posters are young college students who have yet to really live and learn.

True there many people want to be American but I'm not one of them.

call it the peer pressure syndrome. know how i know? i get quite a few good rep points for speaking my mind about america-bashing from non-americans. but you won't find them posting their ideas because a lot of people just can't handle confrontation. it's easier to stay quiet and not rock the boat. like i said...most are young and have not gotten to the point in their lives where they affect any change. so...as unbiased and fair as your poll is, be prepared for disappointment. it's not your fault. you must consider the source from whence you poll.

I'm always speaking my mind it's that mean I'm minority. :confused:

btw...for an american who's living across the waters? you're doing a damned good job. :)
Well no-one's perfect.

OUT!
May 9th, 2004, 11:08 PM
I studied in the US for one year at Northwestern University in Evanston. Total culture shock and felt isolated. That said, I made great American friends and cliches aside, the Americans were so more open and friendly than the Brits. I also travelled around the US after college finished and loved the diversity and variety in the US. Truly beautiful scenery as well.

Didn't really come across much arrogance at all. The only exception was one student who said something lame like " I Hope you still don't refer to us as the colonies becuase we could nuke you to smitherines." :rolleyes: Didn't like the racial segregation either. I have a fairly negative view of the current US Administration but likewise, Blair ain't on my Christmas list either. However, ultimately I prefer where I live in Europe. What's annoying is that some US posters cannot comprehend that ppl actually prefer living in their own countries. Well guess what? We do! I eventually want to live in Germany, perhaps TEFL. Love that country.

saki
May 9th, 2004, 11:13 PM
the fact is, most people won't admit to liking america or wanting to live there. especially on this board where the vast majority of the posters are young college students who have yet to really live and learn.

I find this extremely offensive. As I've already said in this thread, I like many Americans (and love one in particular very dearly), but I don't want to live in America for various well thoughtout reasons. I've also visited the U.S. six times because of having American relatives and so I do have some idea of what it's like. I don't like a) the lack of history b) the lifestyle and c) the politics at the moment. It's not a case of not admitting my secret desire to be American, it's that I don't want to be American. The suggestion that you've made here is essentially that everyone who doesn't want to live in the U.S. doesn't know their own mind. Frankly, I resent the idea that you know me better than I know myself simply by virtue of being American.

OUT!
May 9th, 2004, 11:20 PM
It's not a case of not admitting my secret desire to be American, it's that I don't want to be American. :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Deimos
May 9th, 2004, 11:35 PM
Allow me to add a wrinkle to this debate, which seems to have devolved into a Europe vs US thing.

I happen to know a lot of people from developing countries who, if given a choice, would overwhelmingly prefer to go to the US over any country in Europe. These people sometimes slept outside the US embassy gates waiting to apply for visas - no such queues for any European country. The reason? The perception that, starting from very little, a person could become someone in the US.

I admire that aspect of America; having lived in the US for a while, it is by far the most attractive thing. I don't know how it compares to Europe in this aspect, though I plan to go there in a few months.

I think the whole "Americans are arrogant" thing is one of the most overblown things I've ever heard. A lot of them don't know much about other countries, yes. But on the whole I've found them very friendly and respectful of a person's (intellectual) merit.

A lot of what people call "arrogance" is pride in a great country. I see people from other countries being very proud, almost jingoistic, about their nations. Why is it that when Americans behave in anything close to this fashion, they are seen as rubbing their success in other people's faces?

flyingmachine
May 9th, 2004, 11:40 PM
Well I like many things American such as films. music, clothes, the great outdoors, their free spirit and I like to visit America one day. However, I have no desire to be an American. I'm where I lived now depsite there are many problems in my country. There are also many things America that I don't like too. Such as same areas of the America culture i.e. reglion, guns, the politics, especailly Bush :mad: their obession with race, lack of history, lack of social secuity some areas of their lifestyle etc. I love Europe especailly Britain. I except my roots (Chinese) but also where I belong (Britain) as my home and my soul. I don't mind visit American as a tourist but live in America and to an American NO WAY.

arn
May 9th, 2004, 11:45 PM
Allow me to add a wrinkle to this debate, which seems to have devolved into a Europe vs US thing.

I happen to know a lot of people from developing countries who, if given a choice, would overwhelmingly prefer to go to the US over any country in Europe. These people sometimes slept outside the US embassy gates waiting to apply for visas - no such queues for any European country. The reason? The perception that, starting from very little, a person could become someone in the US.

I admire that aspect of America; having lived in the US for a while, it is by far the most attractive thing. I don't know how it compares to Europe in this aspect, though I plan to go there in a few months.

I think the whole "Americans are arrogant" thing is one of the most overblown things I've ever heard. A lot of them don't know much about other countries, yes. But on the whole I've found them very friendly and respectful of a person's (intellectual) merit.

A lot of what people call "arrogance" is pride in a great country. I see people from other countries being very proud, almost jingoistic, about their nations. Why is it that when Americans behave in anything close to this fashion, they are seen as rubbing their success in other people's faces?
It is certainly true for people from developing countries the American dream is still alive (kept alive), but I'm most positive that dream HARDLY exists anymore in Europe while lots of American still believe the whole world still thinks that way.

Josh
May 9th, 2004, 11:48 PM
The fact that people sleep at the gates of the American embassy might also have something to do with the fact that for the past decades there has been an immigration stop in Europe so the people who migrate to Europe come here through illegal means unfortunately.

OUT!
May 9th, 2004, 11:48 PM
The perception that, starting from very little, a person could become someone in the US.
There's also that perception about Western Europe in developing countries. Illegal immigration to Western Europe from people of the developing world is a big problem and policymakers have yet to address this adequately. The whole American Dream thing might say more about the power of cultural influences, US media images and ideology than the actual reality once people get there. Second and third generation immigrants are more likely to reap the benefits imo.

OUT!
May 9th, 2004, 11:53 PM
LOL others kinda beat me to the point.

Deimos
May 9th, 2004, 11:55 PM
It is certainly true for people from developing countries the American dream is still alive (kept alive), but I'm most positive that dream HARDLY exists anymore in Europe while lots of American still believe the whole world still thinks that way.

On the contrary: I think many Americans know that a lot of people from developing countries would choose to come to the US, but not as many feel that Europeans would choose to live in the US. It's a question of to what degree you're improving your life. Moving to the US from Europe might not be such a huge improvement; on the other hand, emigrating to the US from a developing country would likely greatly improve your quality of life.

Most Americans I know don't think that all Europeans would like to live in the US, or be American. Definitely people from other less fortunate parts of the world, but not Europeans.

flyingmachine
May 9th, 2004, 11:56 PM
Allow me to add a wrinkle to this debate, which seems to have devolved into a Europe vs US thing.

I happen to know a lot of people from developing countries who, if given a choice, would overwhelmingly prefer to go to the US over any country in Europe. These people sometimes slept outside the US embassy gates waiting to apply for visas - no such queues for any European country. The reason? The perception that, starting from very little, a person could become someone in the US.

I admire that aspect of America; having lived in the US for a while, it is by far the most attractive thing. I don't know how it compares to Europe in this aspect, though I plan to go there in a few months.

I think the whole "Americans are arrogant" thing is one of the most overblown things I've ever heard. A lot of them don't know much about other countries, yes. But on the whole I've found them very friendly and respectful of a person's (intellectual) merit.

A lot of what people call "arrogance" is pride in a great country. I see people from other countries being very proud, almost jingoistic, about their nations. Why is it that when Americans behave in anything close to this fashion, they are seen as rubbing their success in other people's faces?

I don't mind about Americans but what I don't like is the attitude they are best in world beacaue God is thrust upon 'em. :mad: The black and white thing which truely make me mad. The worse thing is if other countires doing it only change in their own country but when America is doing it because it a super power it affect everyone and not everyone likes that. This is why so many people feel arrogant about America.

Deimos
May 10th, 2004, 12:04 AM
I don't mind about Americans but what I don't like is the attitude they are best in world beacaue God is thrust upon 'em. :mad: The black and white thing which truely make me mad. The worse thing is if other countires doing it only change in their own country but when America is doing it because it a super power it affect everyone and not everyone likes that. This is why so many people feel arrogant about America.

Well - I think the God-given superiority isn't a sentiment most Americans feel. Bush probably does, but he's not the most cosmopolitan person. Americans just feel pride that their country leads the world in so many areas; I think a lot of people are too hasty to see arrogance in Americans as a whole, just because their current leader is imbecilic.

And race - I completely agree with you, it's an obsession in the US. But US history is responsible for that, and it was only a few decades ago that segregation still existed. It takes time for things like that to become non-issues. I agree that it's very annoying, though...

Josh
May 10th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Well - I think the God-given superiority isn't a sentiment most Americans feel. Bush probably does, but he's not the most cosmopolitan person. Americans just feel pride that their country leads the world in so many areas; I think a lot of people are too hasty to see arrogance in Americans as a whole, just because their current leader is imbecilic.

I agree, some people tend to generalise. (Notice how I used "some" ;))

saki
May 10th, 2004, 12:10 AM
I think the whole "Americans are arrogant" thing is one of the most overblown things I've ever heard. A lot of them don't know much about other countries, yes. But on the whole I've found them very friendly and respectful of a person's (intellectual) merit.

A lot of what people call "arrogance" is pride in a great country. I see people from other countries being very proud, almost jingoistic, about their nations. Why is it that when Americans behave in anything close to this fashion, they are seen as rubbing their success in other people's faces?
I agree that many Americans are friendly and respectful. But you only have to read through this thread to see that there is more than a grain of truth in the "Americans are arrogant" line of thought. Not one single European in this thread has said that everyone secretly desires to be European - on the contrary, we've been saying that we like Europe and see good reasons to stay here but that we accept that Americans feel the same way about America. On the other hand, there have been at least three Americans who've not only said that they prefer to live in the U.S. (which is absolutely fine with me and all the other Europeans in this thread) but that everyone else also secretly wants to live in the U.S. It is going past pride in one's country when one declares that one knows exactly what everyone else in the world want and that is to live in your country: it's arrogance.

Again, I'd like to repeat that by no means every American is arrogant, but it's a small but vocal minority that does the image of the U.S. far more harm than good.

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 12:22 AM
I happen to know a lot of people from developing countries who, if given a choice, would overwhelmingly prefer to go to the US over any country in Europe. These people sometimes slept outside the US embassy gates waiting to apply for visas - no such queues for any European country.Strange then, that one of the biggest issues in the forthcoming election is on our immigration 'problem'.

:rolleyes:

I think the whole "Americans are arrogant" thing is one of the most overblown things I've ever heard.
Then I suggest you go back and read this thread from the beginning!

:lol:

arn
May 10th, 2004, 12:25 AM
On the contrary: I think many Americans know that a lot of people from developing countries would choose to come to the US, but not as many feel that Europeans would choose to live in the US. It's a question of to what degree you're improving your life. Moving to the US from Europe might not be such a huge improvement; on the other hand, emigrating to the US from a developing country would likely greatly improve your quality of life.

Most Americans I know don't think that all Europeans would like to live in the US, or be American. Definitely people from other less fortunate parts of the world, but not Europeans.
I don't agree with the bold part, I really don't see the improvement in going to the states. The USA has it good points, but Europe aswell, as both have also negative things. This is what I mean with (some/lots) americans still believing in the american dream and thinking the USA is better.

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 12:34 AM
Everyone knows they want to come and live in America. OK, harloo, tell me why I would want to come and live in your country.

I'll start the ball rolling:

Education for my children? - Ever heard of Oxford and Cambridge Universities, establishments which can name US Presidents and their offspring amongst their alumni.

Better health service? - possibly, provided we can afford to pay for it.

Better law and order? - Yeah right!

Better diet? - pffffff!

Climate? - hmmm, maybe in California and/or Aspen but I can soon be on a beach in the Med or skiing down an Alp

Culture? - :tape:

I absolutely have nothing against America or it's citizens (although I think the country's foreign policy has always, with a few exceptions, 'sucked'). It's a fine country with much to offer but I really am (despite what you've always been taught) as happy where I am as you are.


:)



I would not want to live in any other country. We agree on something - me niether!





:D

OUT!
May 10th, 2004, 12:41 AM
Colin B you're wasting your time, harloo is convinced that we're all scrambling at the gates to live in the vastly superior US, lol.

OUT!
May 10th, 2004, 01:26 AM
Climate? - hmmm, maybe in California and/or Aspen but I can soon be on a beach in the Med or skiing down an Alp
True Europe has fine climes too, but California is lovely. Then again, I really like the look of some parts of Australia as well.

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 01:32 AM
True Europe has fine climes too, but California is lovely. Then again, I really like the look of some parts of Australia as well.......................and I'm told New Zealand has a good climate, clean air and excellent skiing!
:D

Deimos
May 10th, 2004, 01:50 AM
Strange then, that one of the biggest issues in the forthcoming election is on our immigration 'problem'.

:rolleyes:

Then I suggest you go back and read this thread from the beginning!

:lol:

No, it's not strange at all. A lot of Europe is particularly resistant to immigration, even countries with such low birth rates that immigrant workers would be a bonus. That's probably why that 'problem' is such an issue in your country. The US has always been a country of immigrants; it's a big difference, obviously.


How are the couple of posters who asserted that everyone wants to live in the US representative of American arrogance in general?

WorldWar24
May 10th, 2004, 02:00 AM
I don't have a great opinion of americans in general, and I will never leave europe to live there, but if I had to choose between the USA and some other non-european country, it'd have to be the USA

However, I do like the idea of buying a huge piece of land in a state like north carolina or virginia, and make it my house for the weekends, across the Atlantic :p real estate is so cheap there. Europe is somewhat crowded :o

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 02:06 AM
No, it's not strange at all. A lot of Europe is particularly resistant to immigration, even countries with such low birth rates that immigrant workers would be a bonus. That's probably why that 'problem' is such an issue in your country. The US has always been a country of immigrants; it's a big difference, obviously.Your assertion was that no one is attempting to gain citizenship of any European country. In fact, we have (in the UK alone) a vast back-log of people attempting to gain UK citizenship and have been welcoming immigrants to these shores for hundreds of years, even from Caribbean countries, just off America's shores.


How are the couple of posters who asserted that everyone wants to live in the US representative of American arrogance in general?I like to think we have a pretty broad cross-section of society, politically speaking, from many countries on this board. All are entitled to their views of course, but some more capable of objectivity than others.


;)

WorldWar24
May 10th, 2004, 02:08 AM
Didn't really come across much arrogance at all. The only exception was one student who said something lame like " I Hope you still don't refer to us as the colonies becuase we could nuke you to smitherines." :rolleyes:

LOL :haha:

That's VINTAGE "there is no way like the american way hehe :drive:" :o

~ The Leopard ~
May 10th, 2004, 02:12 AM
I like the US and would happily live there for a year or three.

Hey, saki, if you find the US too "new" in its feel you'd really be alienated in Australia. Pour moi, I do enjoy the feeling of layers of history all around me when I'm in major European cities, but can't quite imagine what it must be like to really need that to be happy. I can understand that it must be so, I just find it difficult to imagine what it is like. :)

OTOH, I need sunshine, wide open spaces not too far away, etc. I'd probably be happiest in California (not necessarily LA) if I had to live in the US, though I can imagine being happy for a period of a few years almost anywhere in the US, Canada, Europe, or lots of other places.

Ari
May 10th, 2004, 05:20 AM
"Education for my children? - Ever heard of Oxford and Cambridge Universities, establishments which can name US Presidents and their offspring amongst their alumni."-Colin B-
According to a recent article in a magazine called The Economist, Oxford and Cambridge rate 6 and 7 internationally. The colleges that rated the highest for endowments were Yale, Harvard, and Stanford. In fact Oxford is having such a hard time rasing money from British citizens they are employing Americans for help.

alexusjonesfan
May 10th, 2004, 06:16 AM
Oh I hate to interrupt this lovely debate about who's 1st world part of the world is better but I think many people here are missing the point. Most immigrants couldn't care less about the history, culture, or variety of cuisine available in their country of immigration. Migration between developed countries represents a very small fraction of the total world immigration picture. Practical things like living standards, job opportunities, perceived quality of education make the real decisions with the vast majority of immigrants.

My extended family is scattered over the world, and it mostly has to do with arbitrary things. Some people came to the US, Canada or the UK to get a degree and never went back, others got jobs in Europe, Africa, East Asia and had to move etc.. We ourselves, moved to Canada instead of New Zealand or Australia primarily because Canada was where my parents were offered a job first. All three would've been great places to live either way. Other friends of my parents emigrated at the same time to places like Vanuatu, Fiji etc. because that's where they got good jobs. One of my best friends' family moved to the Philippines a few years ago from Canada (after having immigrated here from the Middle East) because the father got made manager of a large bank in Manila. The mother (with a graduate degree) can't find a job there because there are few professional positions for foreign women there but it's ok 'cause the dad makes much more there than he did in Canada. A lot of my classmates have immigrated here with their families because of the education. A degree in Canada is much cheaper to acquire than in the US or the UK and a western education will open many doors for them. It's all driven by opportunity. I could think whatever I want of the US government, but if I'm in a 3rd world country looking to move up, it all goes out the window. We spent ten years in a country that wouldn't allow us to own property, didn't let us practice our religion and would be sure to deport us once we stopped being of use to it, but hell the standard of living was high and the money was good ;)

And the 'opportunity' presented by the West is overrated. People who haven't moved here with a job in hand or in a profession which transfers easily, have often paid dearly for it. We know medical doctors with years of experience working in a doughnut shop because there aren't enough residency placements for them, putting their whole future in limbo. In the end, my uncle with a bachelor's degree who got made chairman of his firm in Lagos, Nigeria is much better off than my uncle with a Ph.D. who was at one point on welfare in Richmond, Virginia.

To hell with what I think of you, am I going to make money here or not?

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 08:43 AM
OMG have you even gone outside of your home in Paris? :tape:
You're the first person ever to say that you can't go to a restaurant in France. :o And they have some of the best beaches around and I can't believe you haven't found a nightclub yet in Paris.

jOSH - I appreciate your sarcasm josh. Yes I do occasionally get a pass to leave the house, but only when my wife is feeling really kind. She suffers from a mild form of separation disorder. Shes working on it. I have two small children too and anyone who has children 2 years old or so knows there aint much going on cept watching those kids. Ive only been in France 2 years. Back when i was a student i did more traveling. I dont think i said that i dont go out at all. Occasionally me and my wife go to restaruants. I also meant there are no beaches in Paris but the beaches and fishing are kick ass in New York. In france you gotta be rich to go to the beach or travel far. the nicest beaches are far away and everything is expensive. IN New york, all you gotta do is get on the subway and chazam, you got the beach, amusement parks, professional baseball, all right on the beach. IN some parts you can even surf; And Im married with children - do you think i shoudl be going to nightclubs by myself? You may have something there.

~ The Leopard ~
May 10th, 2004, 08:49 AM
But when you do finally get to the beach in France (lots of) the girls are topless. That's a big advantage over the US. :lick:

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 09:20 AM
Let me refocus something here. My point was not to say that America is the best nor that everyone wants to come here. The point was more for those people who want to go to abroad for a stay, America is 'a' prime destination. I also was saying in my poll choices perhaps unclearly, that the choice would be temporary - not to leave your country and never come back - I was suggesting just a year or 2 or 3 to live and work and see the United States.

And this thread proves one thing - that most people who have negative views of the USA still would want to go and at least visit. I know people whose dislike for a place would make them never want to go there. I would not want to visit Iran, North Korea and other countries and would never buy a product that came from there etc etc. Yet people can dispise USA and find Americans Arrogant, but they still buy American movies, where Nikes, and so on and so forth. Their dislike of America or American arrogance or what have you is not enough to make them never want to come. Somehow America is seen as both subhuman and superhuman. We are alledly racist evil capitalists, but at the same time are supposed to be the saviors of the word, free of racism and inequalities. People love to hate us and hate to love us. No other country evokes such emotions. Do people focus their outrage at problems in France where educated north Africans cant find jobs? It is a huge problem but you dont hear about it. NOpe its the American Evils you here about and that pisses people off.

*JR*
May 10th, 2004, 09:25 AM
I like the US and would happily live there for a year or three.

Crocodile Dundee 3? :p

i-girl
May 10th, 2004, 09:32 AM
I like the US, but I'm not sure I could be happy living there long term. people are too different than what I'm used to:). a few years though, going to Uni there or something, that could be great!

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 09:36 AM
I feel the same way about Israel. I am not sure I qualify cause i was raised purely agnostic... But id love to come and visit and stay for a year or longer maybe. But it is pretty hot there, right? I prefer a more temperate climate.

*JR*
May 10th, 2004, 09:39 AM
I like the US, but I'm not sure I could be happy living there long term. people are too different than what I'm used to:). a few years though, going to Uni there or something, that could be great!
You could stay with Bri and have a Coalition Government under one roof! :lol:

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 09:40 AM
According to a recent article in a magazine called The Economist, Oxford and Cambridge rate 6 and 7 internationally. The colleges that rated the highest for endowments were Yale, Harvard, and Stanford. In fact Oxford is having such a hard time rasing money from British citizens they are employing Americans for help.
6th or 7th, internationally you say? Not bad for a tiny speck of a country that many non-europeans would have difficulty pointing to on a map. ;)

And of course they employ Americans! They are prestigious, internationally renowned universities (as you yourself said), I'm sure they employ academics from all over the world. Plenty of foreign students clammering at the door too!

As for wealth, from next year, be able to name their price, so get in whilst you can!

:)

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 09:56 AM
I also meant there are no beaches in Paris but the beaches and fishing are kick ass in New York. In france you gotta be rich to go to the beach or travel far. the nicest beaches are far away and everything is expensive. IN New york, all you gotta do is get on the subway and chazam, you got the beach, amusement parks, professional baseball, all right on the beach. IN some parts you can even surf; And Im married with children - do you think i shoudl be going to nightclubs by myself? You may have something there.
Hang on Paul. Is New York 'The USA'? Is Paris 'France'?

France has a huge coastline. If you want to live near a beach, move to Saint Tropez, although I'm sure Paris is closer to a beach than, say, Wichita?

:)

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 10:16 AM
Hang on Paul. Is New York 'The USA'? Is Paris 'France'?

France has a huge coastline. If you want to live near a beach, move to Saint Tropez, although I'm sure Paris is closer to a beach than, say, Wichita?

:)


Colan B - I was not saying that NY is the USA and Paris is France. i was expressing my personal preference for NY and especially brooklyn. I love the ocean and also living near a huge incredible major city - perhaps the greatest in the world in so many ways. NY is my personal choice. sure you can live at the beach plenty of places...but to be right in the city and so close to beaches is perfect 'FOR ME!'. Saint Tropez????? That is for very wealthy people. NY york has got plenyt of poor mans' beaches and an entertainment and nightlife that is to say the least Excellent.

Unfortunately i might add for so many people, Paris is france. It is hard to find jobs outside of paris for many many people. I mean lets be realistic. It might be nice to live in say the pyrenťes. but they aint no jobs around there. what is cool about the states is you got somethign for everyone. i venture to say no country has such a varied climate, deserts, and bush country like Austrailia, tropics, temperate environments, mountains, skiing, etc etc. The only thing they dont have i think is rainforests - but then again puerto rico has basically a rainforest, and its a commonwealth - as close to a state as you can come without committing fully. They got a nice deal going there.

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 10:54 AM
gentenaire - If could post a link I would but I don't know how to but take my word for it , buts its a well known fact that when surveyed 89% of the European population wished to relocate to the USA for a better way of life and a secure future:lol: No thanks

*edit* I found the 2003 study instead of the 2001.

A study of the United nations in 2003 showed the following:

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/pdf/presskit/HDR03_PKE_HDI.pdf

Human development index

The HDI measures a country's avhievements in terms of life expectancy, educational attainment and adjusted real income

HDI Rank

High human development


1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Sweden
4 Australia
5 Netherlands
6 Belgium
7 United states
8 Canada
9 Japan
10 Switzerland

I don't know why my future would be more secure in the US :wavey: And if I were to move outside Europe, Australia would be my first choice, not because of this rank, just because the nature, the climate and the mentality would suit me :)

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 11:00 AM
hello........ I am trying to say whether or not people would like to come and stay awhile....not go there and live permanently. Lots of those countries dont have or accept many immigrants by the way. it is much easier to run a country when the popluation is homogenous ie, most everyone in finland norway sweden iceland japan, were born there.......they dont have the challenge the US, creating harmony in such a melting pot.

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 11:02 AM
hello........ I am trying to say whether or not people would like to come and stay awhile....not go there and live permanently. Lots of those countries dont have or accept many immigrants by the way. it is much easier to run a country when the popluation is homogenous ie, most everyone in finland norway sweden iceland japan, were born there.......they dont have the challenge the US, creating harmony in such a melting pot.I was not talking to you, I was talking to emptyheaded emptyhead who claimed what I've quoted.

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 11:03 AM
Colan B - I was not saying that NY is the USA and Paris is France. i was expressing my personal preference for NY and especially brooklyn. I love the ocean and also living near a huge incredible major city - perhaps the greatest in the world in so many ways. NY is my personal choice. sure you can live at the beach plenty of places...but to be right in the city and so close to beaches is perfect 'FOR ME!'. Saint Tropez????? That is for very wealthy people. NY york has got plenyt of poor mans' beaches and an entertainment and nightlife that is to say the least Excellent.Paul, you would love Barcelona! It's much less violent than NY too!

;)

Unfortunately i might add for so many people, Paris is france. It is hard to find jobs outside of paris for many many people. I mean lets be realistic. It might be nice to live in say the pyrenťes. but they aint no jobs around there. what is cool about the states is you got somethign for everyone. i venture to say no country has such a varied climate, deserts, and bush country like Austrailia, tropics, temperate environments, mountains, skiing, etc etc. The only thing they dont have i think is rainforests - but then again puerto rico has basically a rainforest, and its a commonwealth - as close to a state as you can come without committing fully. They got a nice deal going there.No one doubts that The USA can be "all things to all men" and yes, many people would love to visit the country. But the world is a big old spot, Paul and you can take in the whole wealth of human experience (good and bad) without ever setting foot there!

Of my contemporaries (the ones with whom I grew up), many have left these shores and are now living abroad. Sadly, I have lost track of some of them but of the remainder, two have set up home/family in Canada, three (plus my neice) are living in Spain, one took his family to New Zealand (although his eldest boy has returned) and several took the 'hippy trail' to India and beyond and just stopped off along the way - I know one is a diving instructor in Malaysia and another runs a trecking company from Katmandu.

I do know one person who settled in The US but she still has a flat in London and a retreat (also) in Katmandu. She runs a company which imports objets d'art and assorted mystic paraphernalia from Nepal/Tibet into the UK and US. She is the only person I know to have settled in America.
However, I do count amongst my close friends, four Americans. One lives in Scotland, two in England and one in Germany.

As I said before, the world is a big place and lots of people move about and despite what you have been told and difficult as it may seem to grasp, they're not all clammering for 'Green Cards'.


:)

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 11:15 AM
again? clammering for greencards? you are distorting what i said. of course not all brits, french, etc are clammering for green cards.

And the violence in New York is a myth. I never had one problem in New York with violence. And since Guiliani it is much safer anyway. However in paris i was attacked by a guy with a knife and in Nantes, france my brother was attacked by a guy with nightstick and received several stiches. Dont believe everythign you see on tv. Ive noticed in france at least, the media loves to show the negative, dangerous, inequitqble sides of American life. Not realistic at all.

Kart
May 10th, 2004, 11:20 AM
None of the poll options accurately represent my view of USA. The last one is closest but I have no great feelings that 50% of Americans are stupid.

I quite like the USA but, having visited, I could never live there.

Brαm
May 10th, 2004, 11:32 AM
High human development
1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Sweden
4 Australia
5 Netherlands
6 Belgium
7 United States

:D

This is a really interesting thread :yeah: I've goodrepped the people I agree with ;)

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 11:37 AM
Is it not true of those countries mentioned very few have the type of challenge to provide quality lives for people of such varying backgrounds. Iceland....Sweden....norway..........sure you can creat utopias there, but in a cosmoplitan like the US?????????????????????

Brαm
May 10th, 2004, 11:38 AM
Is it not true of those countries mentioned very few have the type of challenge to provide quality lives for people of such varying backgrounds. Iceland....Sweden....norway..........sure you can creat utopias there, but in a cosmoplitan like the US?????????????????????
What are you trying to say?

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 11:45 AM
What are you trying to say?

I was trying to say that the US would rank higher and be a more desirable place to come for a 1 year stay or longer if it was like one of those countries i mentioned and did not have the challenge of providing health care, unemployment etc etc benefits to such a broad range of peoples. It is easier to be a 'nice country' and take care of everyone when you live way up in the north country and everyone makes about the same income. i think you got my point. its like when you take in a stray animal - you are also taking on all its problems, flees, ticks, social problems etc. Point being, the more hetergenous the society, the more immigrants you have, the tougher it is to provide for everyone. I dont have articles to back up that assertion, i just believe and have been told it.

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 11:52 AM
...and I forgot to mention my second eldest daughter who has spent the last few months travelling and doing voluntary work in Mexico and Guatamala. She now plans to travel through South America but currently has no plans to travel any further north than Mexico. :eek:

She has met travellers from all over the world, including many Americans and has no 'beef' with The USA. Despite harbouring no anti-american feelings, she has no desire, at this time, to visit the country.

:)

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 11:57 AM
whats the difference if tons of people have no desire to come to the United States. Its still probably the 1st choice place for people to go - And also the 1st choice for people who dont even like the States very much. My colleague says the first choices for most people who want to see another country are USA, Australia and Canada, in no particular order.

Brαm
May 10th, 2004, 11:59 AM
My colleague says the first choices for most people who want to see another country are USA, Australia and Canada, in no particular order.

Your colleagues.

And what do the statistics say? :scratch:

arn
May 10th, 2004, 12:03 PM
If I want to see another country (just visiting/holiday) the states would not be my first choice allthough I'm sure I will visit it one day in my life. I like to see totally diferent cultures, other ways of living, so before going to the states I'm more interested in South-America, Asia, Afrika,... and later the states.

saki
May 10th, 2004, 12:12 PM
"Education for my children? - Ever heard of Oxford and Cambridge Universities, establishments which can name US Presidents and their offspring amongst their alumni."-Colin B-
According to a recent article in a magazine called The Economist, Oxford and Cambridge rate 6 and 7 internationally. The colleges that rated the highest for endowments were Yale, Harvard, and Stanford. In fact Oxford is having such a hard time rasing money from British citizens they are employing Americans for help.
As an Oxford graduate, I'm going to take issue with this. Yes, Oxford isn't doing well financially at the moment, but universities aren't supposed to be judged on their profit but on their academic merit. The reason why American Ivy League universities are better off is because they charge the earth for their courses. Britain (and Europe generally) has had an ideal whereby the most intelligent students get into the best universities regardless of money. In the U.S. being not completely dumb and having lots of money will get you into one of the top universities, in Britain you have to earn your place on academic merit. If that makes Oxford and Cambridge worse universities, that's fine with us. If you look at the research rankings of universities, you'll see a different story.

OUT!
May 10th, 2004, 12:17 PM
I think I'm joining the saki fan club :)

saki
May 10th, 2004, 12:20 PM
Hey, saki, if you find the US too "new" in its feel you'd really be alienated in Australia. Pour moi, I do enjoy the feeling of layers of history all around me when I'm in major European cities, but can't quite imagine what it must be like to really need that to be happy. I can understand that it must be so, I just find it difficult to imagine what it is like. :)


That's entirely fair enough. I do understand that not everyone is going to feel that way. History is something that I tend to take for granted in Europe, it's everywhere, the mix of old and new buildings, the illogically ordered city centres, it's just part of everyday life and it really unnerves me when it's taken away. I probably could cope without it, but I'd miss it terribly. I can also see why someone would prefer open spaces, especially if that's what they'd grown up with. I grew up in East Anglia which is supposed to have the most boring countryside in England - flat greenness - but I think it's beautiful because although it may not have dramatic mountains, on a clear day you can see for miles and the sunrises and sunsets are incredible. What it mostly comes down to is that everyone sees beauty in what they grew up with. I find that quite an inspiring idea which is why the suggestion made several times in this thread that, actually, everyone only wants the U.S.A, rather upsetting.

saki
May 10th, 2004, 12:21 PM
I think I'm joining the saki fan club :)
:wavey: I think you'll have to found it first... but thank you!

Deimos
May 10th, 2004, 12:23 PM
In the U.S. being not completely dumb and having lots of money will get you into one of the top universities, in Britain you have to earn your place on academic merit. If that makes Oxford and Cambridge worse universities, that's fine with us. If you look at the research rankings of universities, you'll see a different story.

That's completely incorrect! In most cases, American universities have need- blind admissions, and a student is guaranteed financial aid at the best schools so long as they are gifted enough to be accepted.

Brαm
May 10th, 2004, 12:24 PM
That's completely incorrect! In most cases, American universities have need- blind admissions, and a student is guaranteed financial aid at the best schools so long as they are gifted enough to be accepted.
And when you're good at basketball, you get in too :D

saki
May 10th, 2004, 12:26 PM
That's completely incorrect! In most cases, American universities have need- blind admissions, and a student is guaranteed financial aid at the best schools so long as they are gifted enough to be accepted.
But admission is done on the SATs, right? I've seen those tests and, forgive me, but they are ridiculously easy. My American boyfriend took them at 13 out of interest and scored highly enough for an Ivy League university... admittedly he's another Oxford graduate but still that doesn't indicate the highest of standards. And, not every student who is accepted gets financial aid if they need it - you have to win a scholarship separately and therefore have to be of a higher standard than the rich kids.

Deimos
May 10th, 2004, 12:28 PM
And when you're good at basketball, you get in too :D

That's funny. I don't recall skill at basketball being helpful for getting into MIT.

Deimos
May 10th, 2004, 12:30 PM
But admission is done on the SATs, right? I've seen those tests and, forgive me, but they are ridiculously easy. My American boyfriend took them at 13 out of interest and scored highly enough for an Ivy League university... admittedly he's another Oxford graduate but still that doesn't indicate the highest of standards. And, not every student who is accepted gets financial aid if they need it - you have to win a scholarship separately and therefore have to be of a higher standard than the rich kids.

I agree, the SATs are terribly easy. But they aren't the only things that go into admission to a top school.

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Is it not true of those countries mentioned very few have the type of challenge to provide quality lives for people of such varying backgrounds. Iceland....Sweden....norway..........sure you can creat utopias there, but in a cosmoplitan like the US?????????????????????
For the record, The Netherlands and Belgium are quite multicultural too :)

And I posted the thread to show Europeans don't need to go to the US for a better life as some in here claimed (not you Paul, others).

rand
May 10th, 2004, 01:20 PM
what a stupid thread :lol:
ah well Paul123 if you really believe what you're saying, good for you :wavey:

emptyhead
May 10th, 2004, 02:00 PM
Look Iíll keep it simple so that some of you donít go off on theorising and stat hunting, itís so simple, so that any European can understand it.
The USA has the best education system
The USA has the best legal system
The USA has the greatest military might (Iím sure many of you are grateful considering what happened in WW1 and WW2)

Now why someone other than a Belgian would want to live in Belgium is beyond me, or why someone other than a Frenchy would wish to live in France is also hard to fathom. I use these as examples, every country in Europe is likewise. But they all aspire to living in the USA, who wouldnít
A recent study by the European union ( not the USA ) showed that when giving the choice between being educated in Europe or the USA; that 8-10 students would prefer to be educated in the USA. Asked would they seek a career in the USA, 84% answered, YES!

rand
May 10th, 2004, 02:03 PM
Look Iíll keep it simple so that some of you donít go off on theorising and stat hunting, itís so simple, so that any European can understand it.
The USA has the best education system
The USA has the best legal system
The USA has the greatest military might (Iím sure many of you are grateful considering what happened in WW1 and WW2)

Now why someone other than a Belgian would want to live in Belgium is beyond me, or why someone other than a Frenchy would wish to live in France is also hard to fathom. I use these as examples, every country in Europe is likewise. But they all aspire to living in the USA, who wouldnít
A recent study by the European union ( not the USA ) showed that when giving the choice between being educated in Europe or the USA; that 8-10 students would prefer to be educated in the USA. Asked would they seek a career in the USA, 84% answered, YES!
:lol:

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 02:09 PM
rand - what are you talking about. it is obvious that the USA is among the first choices for Europeans and other people whod like to spend a year or more abroad....a duhhhhhhhhh. Where is the point for argument? I dont need to see any stastics. I am already convinced. Yes London, Paris, and after that i dont know, amsterdam, rome, etc. Where is the point of argument. Undoubtedly and my point once again, is that you got plenty of people who want to come to the US who dont particularly like the US or Americans. So their disgust and dislike for us is weaker than their desire to come, for whatever reason. It is hypocritical.

Josh
May 10th, 2004, 02:13 PM
rand - what are you talking about. it is obvious that the USA is among the first choices for Europeans and other people whod like to spend a year or more abroad....a duhhhhhhhhh. Where is the point for argument? I dont need to see any stastics. I am already convinced. Yes London, Paris, and after that i dont know, amsterdam, rome, etc. Where is the point of argument. Undoubtedly and my point once again, is that you got plenty of people who want to come to the US who dont particularly like the US or Americans. So their disgust and dislike for us is weaker than their desire to come, for whatever reason. It is hypocritical.

You're not even European and you seem to know very well what every European thinks and wants. Perhaps it's because the idea of the American Dream is very much kept alive in the States even though in many cases it's an illusion. But it might explain why you seem to think that America is still the promised land for Europeans. :lol:

rand
May 10th, 2004, 02:28 PM
I agree with that last post, what I don't agree with is your whole reductionary view on europe....
I understand you like your country and particulatrly your city (if I had to go to the US NY would certainly be my first choice, as over here it's the only city in the US that has the the reputation of having a culture (which I know is reductionary too, but I just want to say that it seems to be an, interesting place....
BUT that doesn't mean things like "Is it not true of those countries mentioned very few have the type of challenge to provide quality lives for people of such varying backgrounds" are true just because you believe in them...for example Belgium, and in particar Brussels is a real melting pot, Paris is too, like most big cities are....I don't think it's so different in the Us than in europe in that regard(don't know for Scandinavia, I never went there.... but then again you can compare with one of the middle-states in the US then.....)
the thing is, most europeans do think a bit in a way that saki expressed in the beginning of the thread I guess....
the main point is, sure probably the US is on top of the list, when you exclude the other european countries(which is quite important, because most europeans I don't think would want to go outside of europe, because we have a good life here:we have wealth, but we also have a social system, in which for example in Belgium the poor don't have to die outside if they don't want to, where anyone can afford college education,that is even people like me whose parents didn't earn more than a thousand dollars per month to raise two kids....now I'm a mathematician,on my way to become master in actuarial sciences, and I get offers every few weeks to go working amongst others for big american companies....we have a good social security which is affordable for EVERYONE, and so on....), this, not because the US are so great, but because they have a loose immigration(well, used to.....), that doesn't mean that we spit on the US either, I really believe it's a great country,BUT some people need to learn a bit of humility (and in that I don't mean you but more people like emptyhead....)

Sam L
May 10th, 2004, 02:30 PM
I really hate some Americans but there's too much good there for me to not like the country. I'd love to go study, live and work there one day.

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 02:31 PM
OK you win. So America is not one of the places that people want to come and see and stay for a while ie 1 year or so... I think America is a promised land for europeans? I know ive said a lot but i didnt say that JosH. I said America is one of the places that people love to go and one of the places theyd love to come for an extended stay. And its certainly a major place for investment worldwide. And that youd have droves of people coming to get the redemption coupon if they were giving away rights to live and work in America. Lots of you want to exaggerate what i say, take it out of context etc. I keep reiterating that despite the worldwide antiamericanism these days, tons of people want to come to the states to study etc., and many inspite of strong strong feelings of animosity to America.

I never said i know what europeans think and want. Never said that.

If you have all th answers then JOsh where is the promised land for Europeans?

Sam L
May 10th, 2004, 02:32 PM
I really hate some Americans but there's too much good there for me to not like the country. I'd love to go study, live and work there one day.
I forgot to say that the ones I hate are the really dumb ones, the bible thumping ones, the racists, homophobes etc.. But I guess there are those type of people all around the world but this seems to be extreme in some parts of America.

rand
May 10th, 2004, 02:34 PM
OK you win. So America is not one of the places that people want to come and see and stay for a while ie 1 year or so... I think America is a promised land for europeans? I know ive said a lot but i didnt say that JosH. I said America is one of the places that people love to go and one of the places theyd love to come for an extended stay. And its certainly a major place for investment worldwide. And that youd have droves of people coming to get the redemption coupon if they were giving away rights to live and work in America. Lots of you want to exaggerate what i say, take it out of context etc. I keep reiterating that despite the worldwide antiamericanism these days, tons of people want to come to the states to study etc., and many inspite of strong strong feelings of animosity to America.

I never said i know what europeans think and want. Never said that.

If you have all th answers then JOsh where is the promised land for Europeans?
Israel?

Josh
May 10th, 2004, 02:37 PM
OK you win. So America is not one of the places that people want to come and see and stay for a while ie 1 year or so... I think America is a promised land for europeans? I know ive said a lot but i didnt say that JosH. I said America is one of the places that people love to go and one of the places theyd love to come for an extended stay. And its certainly a major place for investment worldwide. And that youd have droves of people coming to get the redemption coupon if they were giving away rights to live and work in America. Lots of you want to exaggerate what i say, take it out of context etc. I keep reiterating that despite the worldwide antiamericanism these days, tons of people want to come to the states to study etc., and many inspite of strong strong feelings of animosity to America.

I never said i know what europeans think and want. Never said that.

If you have all th answers then JOsh where is the promised land for Europeans?

Europe :)

Besides the opposite of what you say is also true : lots of Americans want to come to Europe for an extended stay, I only have to look at the number of American students at my university to see that's true. :)

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 02:48 PM
I know josh - you are preaching to the converted. I love europe. i love france. I feel free and you have all kinds of freedoms here that you dont have in the States. I love france. And I may get French citizenship soon if i want it. Americans come to europe in droves to study. And your point is?
My point was and ill say it again....tons of people love to hate US and yet they STILL come and study and live and work. I mean if you hate the US, why come?

rand
May 10th, 2004, 02:54 PM
I know josh - you are preaching to the converted. I love europe. i love france. I feel free and you have all kinds of freedoms here that you dont have in the States. I love france. And I may get French citizenship soon if i want it. Americans come to europe in droves to study. And your point is?
My point was and ill say it again....tons of people love to hate US and yet they STILL come and study and live and work. I mean if you hate the US, why come?
and about that, yes you're right....
I can think about a few reasons
1)to quote Leonard Cohen in his excellent song "democracy" I love the country but I can't stand the scene
2)liking america is different to liking the americans....in Belgium we have this saying "france would be a really great country without the french".....
3)some people are idiots.....

~ The Leopard ~
May 10th, 2004, 02:58 PM
I think I'm joining the saki fan club :)
I'll let you in, but it'll cost you. :hehehe:

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 04:02 PM
Look Iíll keep it simple so that some of you donít go off on theorising and stat hunting, itís so simple, so that any European can understand it.
The USA has the best education system
The USA has the best legal system
The USA has the greatest military might (Iím sure many of you are grateful considering what happened in WW1 and WW2)
Best education system? We don't need a degree at Harvard to succeed in life. Education over here is very good, but how would you know.

Best legal system? what's better in America than over here? Death penalty??

Best military might? Oh well, they sure want to show that to the rest of the world. But I don't think that's a reason for people to come to the US. On the contrary...I'm happy to live in a country where tax money isn't spend on oil-war. And as for WW1 and 2, that's history...back then the American dream was still alive too, but that's history aswell.

What about best social security, nicest culture, least conservative and most tolerant (concerning gay people, abortus, euthanasia), best health care (as in health care for EVERYONE, not only for those who have enough money). Oh and Least obese? :lol:

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 04:12 PM
How insulting to say the American dream is not alive. It is still possible to start out very poor, get an education, get a job, raise a family, and have enough time and money to have vacations and have fun. The American dream is not just getting filthy rich and having lots of servants. Go spit in your own soup thank you, not in USA's.

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 04:18 PM
How insulting to say the American dream is not alive. It is still possible to start out very poor, get an education, get a job, raise a family, and have enough time and money to have vacations and have fun. The American dream is not just getting filthy rich and having lots of servants. Go spit in your own soup thank you, not in USA's.
I meant that the Amercian dream almost doesn't exist in (at least western-) Europe anymore. At the beginning of last century people over here went to the US seeking their dreams, that's over for a while now.

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 04:25 PM
tfannis - thanks for explaining. I see what you mean. Yeah i guess the days of the frontier are over. The doors are not open any longer like they used to be welcoming anyone to come to Ellis Island. I think that even without the war, the US would still be the subject of tremendous and unecessary criticism. People dont get a riled up over other countries. When in doubt Blame it on US.

Brαm
May 10th, 2004, 04:58 PM
The USA has the best legal system

http://www.paramount.com/television/judge-judy/_content/judge-judy-main_a.jpg

"Sluggy"
May 10th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Does anyone else find it fascinating that 7 people in this poll have negative views about the USA but would like to go and live/work there. I cant say there is any place Id like to go that I have a negative view of. What about you????????

If I couldnt live in the States or France, I think id live in the UK, Holland and lastly Canada. Canada would normally be too cold for me but would otherwise possibly be my first choice.

Stijn
May 10th, 2004, 05:04 PM
http://www.paramount.com/television/judge-judy/_content/judge-judy-main_a.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown:

arn
May 10th, 2004, 05:19 PM
You say those people are hypocrits... I guess money makes people hypocrit...

emptyhead
May 10th, 2004, 07:29 PM
The replies in this thread by the European posters is an measure of inadequacy in the European educational system, reading the contrived diatribe spewing forth.

gentenaire
May 10th, 2004, 07:56 PM
The replies in this thread by the European posters is an measure of inadequacy in the European educational system, reading the contrived diatribe spewing forth.

'A' measure, not 'an' measure. Tsk, tsk.

emptyhead
May 10th, 2004, 08:02 PM
gentainaire said - 'A' measure, not 'an' measure. Tsk, tsk.

Just like I stated, if I had been educated in the USA, instead of Europe I'd never had made this error.

gentenaire
May 10th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Where did you attend school?

emptyhead
May 10th, 2004, 08:24 PM
The "Tsk, tsk". that was funny, I really liked that : - )

Ari
May 10th, 2004, 08:28 PM
"6th or 7th, internationally you say? Not bad for a tiny speck of a country that many non-europeans would have difficulty pointing to on a map.

And of course they employ Americans! They are prestigious, internationally renowned universities (as you yourself said), I'm sure they employ academics from all over the world. Plenty of foreign students clammering at the door too!

As for wealth, from next year, be able to name their price, so get in whilst you can!"-Colin B-
I know I am diverging from the topic of discussion but, the tiny speck of country you are referring to is the U.K.? I thought the U.K. was a part of Europe, therefore they are Europeans. So is Cambridge and Oxford the best Europe has to offer?

thalle
May 10th, 2004, 08:44 PM
if this were about Belgium, I wonder what Zdenek would have voted

njguido11
May 10th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Since this war is supposedly all about the OIL. I was just sitting here wondering when im gonna start seeing the benefit from all this oil were getting, since my oil prices are way higher than theyve ever been. How long do u think it will take. I personally cant wait.

saki
May 10th, 2004, 08:56 PM
I know I am diverging from the topic of discussion but, the tiny speck of country you are referring to is the U.K.? I thought the U.K. was a part of Europe, therefore they are Europeans. So is Cambridge and Oxford the best Europe has to offer?
I think it depends on what, in particlar, you're looking at. In my field (neoPlatonism & patristics especially Augustine) I've noticed that by far the most thorough and scholarly work comes from German universities and the Sorbonne (in Paris, obviously) and that the more 'radical' ideas tend to be coming from Oxford/Cambridge and Canada. When it comes to Plato (what I did for my masters), the best recent research has come from Oxford, London & Cornell. Given that I can tell differences in research quality between two fields quite closely related, I think it's going to be very difficult to find a general answer to your question.

gentenaire
May 10th, 2004, 08:59 PM
Why don't you answer my question? I asked where you attended school. And when I asked earlier if you've ever been to Europe, you didn't answer either.


BTW, I do think the US has the best universities, I don't think the US has the best educational system, far from it. My brother was an exchange student in the US, he felt the level in high school was very very low. Also, when my prof saw the works of US students going for a bachelor degree, he mentioned how he wouldn't have given a single one more than 2/20. The level was that low. However, the masters program at most US unis is of a very high level. It's a shame very few actually get a masters degree. And please, get off your high horse. Everyone knows that Oxford and Cambridge are excellent universities.

saki
May 10th, 2004, 09:07 PM
BTW, I do think the US has the best universities, I don't think the US has the best educational system, far from it. My brother was an exchange student in the US, he felt the level in high school was very very low. Also, when my prof saw the works of US students going for a bachelor degree, he mentioned how he wouldn't have given a single one more than 2/20. The level was that low. However, the masters program at most US unis is of a very high level. It's a shame very few actually get a masters degree. And please, get off your high horse. Everyone knows that Oxford and Cambridge are excellent universities.
I think the U.S. and Europe just do things differently. I looked into U.S. graduate schools and found that the masters part of the program would effectively be a repeat of what I'd been doing for my last two years at Oxford. I'm sure that American PhD students come out with a similar level of education to European PhD students, they just do the sort of stuff we do for finals for masters. I would have hated having to do such a spread of subjects for my BA - I just wanted to get down and do my Latin, Greek and philosophy! - but I can see the advantages to it.

WorldWar24
May 10th, 2004, 09:17 PM
As an Oxford graduate, I'm going to take issue with this. Yes, Oxford isn't doing well financially at the moment, but universities aren't supposed to be judged on their profit but on their academic merit. The reason why American Ivy League universities are better off is because they charge the earth for their courses. Britain (and Europe generally) has had an ideal whereby the most intelligent students get into the best universities regardless of money. In the U.S. being not completely dumb and having lots of money will get you into one of the top universities, in Britain you have to earn your place on academic merit. If that makes Oxford and Cambridge worse universities, that's fine with us. If you look at the research rankings of universities, you'll see a different story.

:worship: SIR YES SIR

VERY TRUE

Look at pres Bush - he only got into the uni because his father was who he was.

The LAND OF OPPORTUNITY CRAP is completely false. The USA do not reward the smartest students, they reward those who pay better :lol:

In europe there are private unis too, but the best ones are public = ONLY PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY DESERVE TO BE THERE GET IN
Some time ago I visited a european medicine school website, and I saw this note by a brazilian girl, who was asking on the guestbook how much did she have to pay in order to get into a med school in europe, because "somehow I can't find the price anywhere"!!! WELL DUH :retard:

:haha:

decemberlove
May 10th, 2004, 09:22 PM
even the US goverment knows our education system isnt top notch...

[yes, i know this is from 2001 . but not much has changed since then in our schools . if anything, the situation has gotten "worser" ;) ]

http://www.ed.gov/pubs/stratplan2001-05/goal2.pdf

fifiricci
May 10th, 2004, 09:25 PM
I am not the only person from outside America with this view theres bound to be a few others.

P.S Are you a Yank?
Are you a fascist?

njguido11
May 10th, 2004, 10:15 PM
ur telling me honestly that someone with famous parents from europe and who didnt do great in high school would get denied from european universities.

gentenaire
May 10th, 2004, 10:19 PM
ur telling me honestly that someone with famous parents from europe and who didnt do great in high school would get denied from european universities.

Anyone with a high school diploma can start Uni. The hard part is staying there, is passing the exams, and no amount of money can help you there.

strike86
May 10th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Are you a fascist?

No I am not a facist. I believe in democracy and capitalism.

saki
May 10th, 2004, 10:24 PM
ur telling me honestly that someone with famous parents from europe and who didnt do great in high school would get denied from european universities.
In Britain, yes. The only exception being Prince Charles ;) who definitely didn't deserve his place at Cambridge. Otherwise, I really can't think of anyone with famous parents who got a place they didn't deserve. Even Prince William got the grades he needed for St. Andrews (and all exam papers are anonymously marked).

arn
May 10th, 2004, 10:26 PM
ur telling me honestly that someone with famous parents from europe and who didnt do great in high school would get denied from european universities.
I don't know for th rest of Europe, but in Belgium EVERYBODY with a high school degree can start uni. Even if you needed 12 years to get through it and your results were sh*t. So it does not matter if you have famous/wealthy/poor/... parents, you can give it a try. So we don't have a selection BEFORE you go to unversity. BUT the selection is done during the exams, the exams are VERY dificult here, especialy in the first year. But at least you give it a try :)

Thierry's_Ladee
May 10th, 2004, 10:32 PM
Generally i do have a negative view of the US theres not exactly anything on the news to make me think otherwise in fact the more i hear the lower my opinion gets, I do pose a considerable amonut of this blame for that on Bush. He's a idiot and a war monger.

However USA is the land of oppurtunity and should I get a chance to live/work there for a little while I'd sure as hell take it.

WorldWar24
May 10th, 2004, 10:35 PM
ur telling me honestly that someone with famous parents from europe and who didnt do great in high school would get denied from european universities.

SURE

As long as there are people with better grades :drive: BYEBYE

saki
May 10th, 2004, 10:43 PM
saki, if you've taken offense then that choice is yours. my intent was far from that. i do know that there are many people who love being just where they are. however, the mood/opinion/feeling for america is so colored by distaste (and i'm being mild when i use that word) these days that it is difficult for an american to come on a board like this and not feel it in a most acute way. my comment was indeed flippant, of course, and more indicative of how i feel about anti-americanism in general...and not your case in particular.
I don't think that there's been much anti-Americanism in this thread though. I can understand being frustrasted with anti-Americanism in general but that's no reason to take it out on people who've expressed a preference for their own country but no hatred for yours. The best way to fight anti-Americanism is to show that Americans can be reasonable and appreciate the cultures and traditions of other countries. Your remarks, even if you meant them flippantly, didn't do that. The perception of Americans in general is that they know nothing and care less about other countries and, if you want to fight that perception, telling the rest of the world that they're immature and secretly want to be American just isn't going to help.

strike86
May 10th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Doh :lol:

saki
May 10th, 2004, 10:56 PM
i know that at the end of the day, we each have our opinions. i can live with that.
That's really not what your first post said though. You said explicitly that when we all grew up, we'd have your opinion. Certainly we can have different opinions, but when we're told (as Europeans have been told a few times in this thread) that our opinions are just wrong and secretly we must agree with yours, you're not really living and letting live, are you?

saki
May 10th, 2004, 11:05 PM
saki...tell me, the first portion that is bolded. what about that makes you think that what i want is truth about being an american? does it not occur to you that i might just be speaking of a simple 'i like america'?
:confused: Isn't it obvious that "most people won't admit to liking america or wanting to live there. especially on this board where the vast majority of the posters are young college students who have yet to really live and learn" says that most people like America and want to live there but won't admit it because they're young and stupid? I mean you say exactly that. Fine, if it's not what you meant, but it's still what you said. :confused: :wavey:

BigTennisFan
May 10th, 2004, 11:06 PM
sorry paul, but it's not gonna happen. if you were an american like volcana asking for negativity you'd get it in droves. although your survey makes much more sense and doesn't exhibit the bias that say...a less intelligent survey would exhibit...the fact is, most people won't admit to liking america or wanting to live there. especially on this board where the vast majority of the posters are young college students who have yet to really live and learn.

call it the peer pressure syndrome. know how i know? i get quite a few good rep points for speaking my mind about america-bashing from non-americans. but you won't find them posting their ideas because a lot of people just can't handle confrontation. it's easier to stay quiet and not rock the boat. like i said...most are young and have not gotten to the point in their lives where they affect any change. so...as unbiased and fair as your poll is, be prepared for disappointment. it's not your fault. you must consider the source from whence you poll.

btw...for an american who's living across the waters? you're doing a damned good job. :)
Likewise DD. :wavey:

dudester
May 10th, 2004, 11:08 PM
saki, do you know Kung Fu?

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 11:13 PM
yet to live and learn = young and unexperienced; immature

Not helping the case ;)

saki
May 10th, 2004, 11:21 PM
saki, do you know Kung Fu?
No. How is that relevant?

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 11:21 PM
Yes, many are young, but that's not the point of this conversation.

"most people won't admit to liking america or wanting to live there. especially on this board where the vast majority of the posters are young college students who have yet to really live and learn"

You're telling us we won't admit we like America and want to live there because we're young and unexperienced.

So just not wanting to live in America isn't an option for a mature person?

Anyway...I agree with everything saki said, no need to repeat it ;)

dudester
May 10th, 2004, 11:22 PM
what about karate?

*JR*
May 10th, 2004, 11:42 PM
No. How is that relevant?
Just What We need, another new troll doing ethnic stereotypes, huh? :rolleyes:

Colin B
May 10th, 2004, 11:43 PM
"6th or 7th, internationally you say? Not bad for a tiny speck of a country that many non-europeans would have difficulty pointing to on a map.

And of course they employ Americans! They are prestigious, internationally renowned universities (as you yourself said), I'm sure they employ academics from all over the world. Plenty of foreign students clammering at the door too!

As for wealth, from next year, be able to name their price, so get in whilst you can!"-Colin B-
I know I am diverging from the topic of discussion but, the tiny speck of country you are referring to is the U.K.? I thought the U.K. was a part of Europe, therefore they are Europeans. So is Cambridge and Oxford the best Europe has to offer?Ari. Hi. :wavey:

Firstly, a little tip - if you press the 'reply' button at the bottom right hand side of each post, the reply box will appear with that post already quoted and you can write your reply after the quote.

Secondly, The UK is part of the European Union but is, as yet, a country in it's own right, just as Belgium, France and Germany are. We are not a 'United States of Europe' yet. As to your question, I must confess I've no idea which universities of the other European countries are. I believe the Sorbonne(sp) in Paris is very good. I'm sure there are many others.

:)

saki
May 10th, 2004, 11:44 PM
Just What We need, another new troll doing ethnic stereotypes, huh? :rolleyes:
Oh, I see! I'm not even Japanese, so that's why I didn't understand! In case any troll needs to know for the future, I'm British. See flag.

tfannis
May 10th, 2004, 11:52 PM
Secondly, The UK is part of the European Union but is, as yet, a country in it's own right, just as Belgium, France and Germany are. We are not a 'United States of Europe' yet. As to your question, I must confess I've no idea which universities of the other European countries are. I believe the Sorbonne(sp) in Paris is very good. I'm sure there are many others.
As far as I know the quality of education in Belgium is very good. The level at the universities of Leuven and Ghent is pretty high, we're envolved in many international projects. But since Belgium actually is a tiny speck of country, nobody knows anything about us, which is something we are used to. We love to be the underdog ;)

dudester
May 11th, 2004, 12:19 AM
Just What We need, another new troll doing ethnic stereotypes, huh? :rolleyes:
Incase you didn't know, one of the greatest Martial Artist in the world is named Saki. i wanted to know if he/she is a fan.

and fuck you too, bitch! don't be bad repping me and cussing me out.

saki
May 11th, 2004, 12:21 AM
Incase you didn't know, one of the greatest Martial Artist in the world is named Saki. i wanted to know if he/she is a fan.


Oh, ok, fair enough. I didn't understand. No, I'm a fan of the writer H.H.Munro who used "saki" as a pen name.

*JR*
May 11th, 2004, 12:23 AM
Incase you didn't know, one of the greatest Martial Artist in the world is named Saki. i wanted to know if he/she is a fan.

and fuck you too, bitch! don't be bad repping me and cussing me out.
Why didn't you just ask the poster directly instead of asking "20 questions" then? I accept your explanation and will undo the bad rep in a few days when the board's computer lets me, but it did appear 2B ethnic stereotyping.

Ari
May 11th, 2004, 12:40 AM
"Ari. Hi.

Firstly, a little tip - if you press the 'reply' button at the bottom right hand side of each post, the reply box will appear with that post already quoted and you can write your reply after the quote."-Colin B-

Yes, I know of the aforementioned information but thank you.

dudester
May 11th, 2004, 12:45 AM
Why didn't you just ask the poster directly instead of asking "20 questions" then? I accept your explanation and will undo the bad rep in a few days when the board's computer lets me, but it did appear 2B ethnic stereotyping.
i asked two questions, so don't exaggerate.

i want an apology. rightnow.

dudester
May 11th, 2004, 12:46 AM
Oh, ok, fair enough. I didn't understand. No, I'm a fan of the writer H.H.Munro who used "saki" as a pen name.
k :)

Crazy Canuck
May 11th, 2004, 02:26 AM
All of my visits to the USA have been largly positive. I don't plan on moving there and working, but if an amazing employment opportunity ever arose I'd definately consider it. Short term I could live there, but I can't see settling down and making a life there because it's not my home... I hope that makes sense ;)

*JR*
May 11th, 2004, 02:35 AM
i asked two questions, so don't exaggerate.

i want an apology. rightnow.
For this error I AM sorry and will "reverse" the bad rep as promised when the computer permits. However, your true character is revealed in your gloating about the Iraq pics in the other thread. (BTW, that'll probably get other Americans killed in one or two, or ten acts of revenge wherever in the world).

Veritas
May 11th, 2004, 05:04 AM
On the neverending Euro vs. US debate, if I had to choose between either places to live and work there, I'd pick America.

That's just my opinion anyway.

But overall, I'd honestly say that Australia is an awesome place to settle in. Sure, the local music and movie industry is mostly docile compared to Hollywood, but that's about the only real gripe I have with living in Melbourne. It's fairly quiet (again, I'm comparing this to the U.S.) and our government is generous, when you start looking at what's been going in Congress, Diet, and other world Houses. OK, there was the whole Tampa issue and we're the only country in the world to have mandatory detention for all people (refugees included) who arrive "on-shore" w/o official approval and the right papers/documents. But we get things like HECS (student loans), medicare, 'reasonable' grants for home buyers, 'reasonable' superannuation, 'reasonable' bank loans, etc.

Also, from what I've read so far, there haven't been as many scandals coming from ALP or the Liberals when they were in power (well, recently anyway). There's been some well-documented cover-ups when it comes to Congress and other governments around the world, but Australia's got a fairly low record on corruption in politics.

And we don't have many large ethnic killings or confrontations, our crime and prison rates (if you want to check resources, ASIC's page is a good place to start) are not much to worry about and I honestly think people in Australia are generally friendlier.

We've had our bad history with the Stolen Generation and White Australia Policy (and asylum seeker issues as well), but they're mostly non-existent today. I don't know enough about racial and violence issues in Europe and the U.S., but I don't think there've been as many soccer/football riots in Australia...

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Take no notice of JollyRoger, thats all that dunderhead does, is bad rep intellligent posters

"Sluggy"
May 11th, 2004, 03:15 PM
i agree australia sounds like a rocking place.

Colin B
May 11th, 2004, 03:30 PM
But overall, I'd honestly say that Australia is an awesome place to settle in. Sure, the local music and movie industry is mostly docile compared to Hollywood, but that's about the only real gripe I have with living in Melbourne.Don't put your film industry down. Any country that can make Priscilla Queen of the Desert, Muriel's Wedding and Mad Max is OK with me!

;)

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 03:36 PM
Who in their right mind would want to go live in Australia

arn
May 11th, 2004, 03:43 PM
Who in their right mind would want to go live in Australia
That country is much more appealing to me as the states :)

"Sluggy"
May 11th, 2004, 03:43 PM
well if i couldnt live in America... Canada is too cold for me. after that my first choice is france, then UK or Holland then probably Australia. I could be a surfer bum, itd be great

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 03:49 PM
Look I'll leave my address, if any of you wish you can come visit me

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 04:04 PM
gentenaire asked - Why don't you answer my question? I asked where you attended school. And when I asked earlier if you've ever been to Europe, you didn't answer either.

I never replied because I thought you didn't really care.

saki - Sometimes she puts intellectual argument before common sense.

saki
May 11th, 2004, 05:09 PM
saki - Sometimes she puts intellectual argument before common sense.
I hope you'll forgive me if I don't take criticism of my personality from someone called "emptyhead" very seriously... Since you've favoured me with your opinion of me, mine of you is that you have neither intellectual arguments nor common sense. Oh, well.

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 05:11 PM
I forgive you

saki
May 11th, 2004, 05:18 PM
I forgive you
Thank God! I really didn't think I'd be able to go on living without the approval of an idiot on a messageboard.

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 05:31 PM
You can always tell the saki's of this world.

You probably read all the right magazines, 'new international', 'world alert', yes you can get magazines for everything nowadays.

O' your full of crap. Youíre the one who lives in a world of fiction, when the facts hit you , you run a mile. You think youíre a hero because you read the right newspaper, and your Oxfam Christmas cards, and your wee Amnesty badge, I bet you even wear it under your lapel.


Love you!

gentenaire
May 11th, 2004, 05:35 PM
I never replied because I thought you didn't really care.

Oh, I don't. It's just that I don't believe you.

gentenaire
May 11th, 2004, 05:39 PM
You can always tell the saki's of this world.

You probably read all the right magazines, 'new international', 'world alert', yes you can get magazines for everything nowadays.

O' your full of crap. Youíre the one who lives in a world of fiction, when the facts hit you , you run a mile. You think youíre a hero because you read the right newspaper, and your Oxfam Christmas cards, and your wee Amnesty badge, I bet you even wear it under your lapel.


Love you!

Sakis, not Saki's, you're full of crap, not your full...

BTW, what facts? You haven't posted a single fact in this thread.

Giuliano
May 11th, 2004, 05:43 PM
especially on this board where the vast majority of the posters are young college students who have yet to really live and learn.

This is what I was meaning to ask. How old are you? I thought you were in your early/mid twenties.

saki
May 11th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Sakis, not Saki's, you're full of crap, not your full...

BTW, what facts? You haven't posted a single fact in this thread.
Dammit, Tine, I keep trying to good rep you but apparently I've got to spread it around a bit more... Oh, well, have some good thoughts instead! :kiss:

Not going to bother replying to the troll anymore, I've got better things to do.

OUT!
May 11th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Thank God! I really didn't think I'd be able to go on living without the approval of an idiot on a messageboard.:haha: :haha: :haha: :rolls:

Cam'ron Giles
May 11th, 2004, 06:54 PM
Bash America and Americans...the boards favourite past time...:rolleyes:

GOD BLESS THE USA...:D

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 07:00 PM
saki said -Thank God! I really didn't think I'd be able to go on living without the approval of an idiot on a messageboard.

Then why respond.

Cam'ron Giles said - Bash America and Americans...the boards favourite past time

For once we have the truth

Cam'ron Giles
May 11th, 2004, 07:05 PM
You know what...I dont agree with alot of the things that happens and in this country and I know the history of this country...But its the kind of place that if you play the hands that you are dealt properly...the sky is the limit...and that is by far more possible here than anywhere else...I always say that "the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world". Let there be some kind of big disaster ANY PLACE in the world and it's our tax dollars that takes care of it...but none of you euros are gonna think about that...:rolleyes:

emptyhead
May 11th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Cue anti Americanism

"Sluggy"
May 11th, 2004, 08:15 PM
I have posted a loooong article from Aish.com about anti-Globalization, anti-Americanism and Anti-Semitism. I didnt really want to focus on the last issue but for lack of better material this is what i found. And I think its true. Im not the most knowledgeable on the last issue and defer to more knowledgeable people like Noga. I think it answers a lot of questions regarding the the new antiamericanism which predates 9/11. i dont plan on taking up this much space in the future but i didnt think it would be fair to edit someones article and take out parts for the one or two people that read some of it. i figured youd bear with me cause the thread is over and done with and i started it...
In france all you hear is antiglobal this antiglobal that, and you can be pretty sure that if the person is saying those things THEY ARE PRETTY DAMN SURE TO HAVE POIGNANT CRITICISM FOR ISRAEL AND THE NEVER ENDING SUPPORT OF HER BY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. So my experience is there is a connection.



Article:
What do international banks, sweatshops, soft drink makers and Israel all have in common? Currently the attention of the anti-globalization movement. The latest explosion of anti-globalization protests at the UN's Summit on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg is yet another chapter in the movement's sordid history regarding its policies on Israel.

The phenomenon of anti-globalization first appeared in Seattle in 1999 at the World Trade organization meeting. It was further developed at the World Bank demonstrations in Washington in April 2000, at the G7 meetings in Genoa and Prague in July 2001, at the Durban World Conference Against Racism in August 2001, anti-war demonstrations in Washington and San Francisco in April 2002, and now in Johannesburg in August-September 2002. The pattern of disrupting international conferences and trade summits is now firmly entrenched.

While globalization, the internationalization of market capitalism, is seen by many as a ray of hope for solving the world's economic problems, it is also blamed for problems plaguing nations and individuals. This new umbrella movement has emerged to oppose "capitalist globalization." It is a broad-based, motley gathering of groups who aim to reduce corporate power and global inequity, and bring about social justice in the world. It is decentralized, multinational, opposed to hierarchy, and by nature chaotic. Among the very few goals shared universally amongst members of the movement is the need for radical reform of the World Trade Organization and IMF. Israel has recently been added to that list, becoming the global "whipping boy" of the leftist movement. This serves to unify the anti-globalization movement despite its obvious complexities and contradictions.

The roots of the flawed shift in leftist thinking toward Israel were amplified at the UN Conference on Racism in Durban in August 2001, which ended only 3 days before the terror attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. This controversial conference shifted the anti-globalization debate, and placed racism and xenophobia at the center of its campaign. The net result was that the conference raised the specter of anti-Semitism as a global force in the international community.


Terms like "genocide", "fascism", "apartheid" and "holocaust" were bandied about at every opportunity to describe Israeli actions and the Jews.

The international groups (NGO's) in attendance were receptive to the information provided claiming that Israel is an apartheid state engaged in oppression of the Palestinians. Included in the discourse was the infamous forgery "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Terms like "genocide", "fascism", "apartheid" and "holocaust" were bandied about at every opportunity to describe Israeli actions and the Jews. Nazi symbols next to stars of David were used in their protests.

The avalanche of anti-Israel sentiment was made particularly credible by the legitimacy of the UN. Most NGO's look towards the UN for moral guidance, leadership and responsible governance. If the United Nations represents the common goal of truth and justice brought forth by all nations that engage in it, then its resolutions should represent truth.

However, the UN has become a bastion for anti-Israel resolutions -- in effect sponsoring Palestinian terror. Arab states have a disproportionate voice in setting the agenda at the General Assembly and have frequently used it to push forward anti-Israel resolutions. Israel is the only member state at the U.N. that has been denied a seat on the Security Council, and has yet to be included as a member of a regional group at the U.N. The second largest employer after the PA in the West Bank and Gaza is UNRWA. This UN flagship organization has done nothing to prevent camps becoming centers of terrorist activity. For the lack of appropriate action, the UN is morally culpable.

Durban was the catalyst that legitimized anti-Israel rhetoric (anti-Zionism) on a grand scale. The NGO's and participants became messengers of ideas that were spread across the globe. The ideas disseminated placed Israel as the sole antagonist in the conflict, raising the level of worldwide anti-Israel emotion to terrifying proportions. The anti-globalization movement, who took on Israel-bashing as their cause and mantra, embraced the distortion of facts provided at the UN Conference without question.

The "Take the Capital" anti-globalization demonstration in Washington in April 2002 was supposed to be a protest against the G8. Instead it turned into predominantly a show of solidarity for the Palestinian cause and a mobilization against Israel. Organizers claimed it was the largest showing of solidarity with Palestinians in U.S. history. Protestor "Stanley" perhaps summed up the mood of the marchers best when he was quoted as saying: "We don't approve of suicide bombers killing civilians, but it's the only defense Palestinians have" (as reported by the Washington Post, April 21 2002).


The anti-globalization movement called for a "global intifada" to protest against Israeli "aggression," essentially calling for wholesale murder and maiming of innocent civilians.

In April 2002, movements aligned to the anti-globalization movement called for a "global intifada" to protest against Israeli "aggression," essentially calling for wholesale murder and maiming of innocent civilians. Apparently the slaughter of innocent Jews deemed irrelevant and sympathies should lie with suicide bombers.

The anti-globalization movement blames Israel for creating desperate conditions that led to a violent outbreak of resistance. To blame economics for the Palestinian uprising is misleading. The outbreak of terrorism began during a period of economic optimism amongst Palestinians. A recent study from the independent National Bureau of Economic Research in Cambridge, Massachusetts concludes: "Any connection between poverty, education and terrorism is indirect and probably quite weak." The study demonstrates that violence in the Middle East has increased while economic conditions were improving.

The anti-globalization movement believes that Palestinians have been deprived of "their land," and that giving it back to them will create a peaceful resolution to the conflict. In accordance with the 1993 Oslo Accords, Israel withdrew militarily from Palestinian areas, so that by 1999, 98% of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza were under self-rule. It is a myth that the Palestinians lacked freedom or autonomy and that this has anything to do with the current armed conflict. What is even more chilling is the idea of billionaire Arafat as a peacemaker. Rather than resolve the conflict through negotiation at Camp David, the Palestinian leadership initiated the current "intifada" against Israel, a reign of terror still continuing until this day. The Palestinians have achieved nothing by all these years of hatred, blood and war, but poverty and deprivation.

Anti-globalization activists claim that Zionism is a form of apartheid and a racist ideology enforced on the Palestinian people. Never mind that this has nothing to do with fighting global capitalism. Zionism represents the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. This also happens to be the only type of nationalism ever targeted by the UN as racist. The claim that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, but a legitimate criticism of Israel's policies, is difficult to understand in the context of the anti-globalization movement making no other pronunciations about any other country in the world. Why is Jewish nationalism described as racism -- do Jews not deserve a national homeland? The only satisfactory answer is that anti-Zionism is none other than anti-Semitism on a national scale. Instead of targeting the Jew as individual, now his national homeland bears the brunt of hatred.

Supporting the ideology of suicide bombers who seek, on principle the outcome that most combatants try to avoid in armed conflict -- the killing of innocents -- places the West in great danger. Islamic fundamentalism, which promotes jihad as a legitimate religious protocol, is a serious threat to Western democratic values, and the peaceful values expounded by the anti-globalization movement.

Palestinian society is strangled by the dictatorial rule of Arafat, with extremist elements like Islamic Jihad and Hamas controlling the streets. Palestinians are directly responsible for a significant percentage of the Palestinian death toll as "suspected collaborators" are publicly lynched. If they are fortunate, they'll have their property confiscated by Arafat's corrupt police force, or detained, tortured, or forced at gunpoint to leave the territories. The spontaneous murder without trial of Palestinians by Arafat's cronies is seldom addressed. Confronting the suffering of Palestinians caused by Israel is one thing, but where is the outcry about the suffering inflicted upon them by the Arafat regime?

By supporting the Palestinian cause, morally and economically, anti-globalization activists share some of the blame for the terror attacks perpetrated by the terrorists. In April 2002, so-called "peace activists" were pictured hugging and kissing Yassir Arafat in a gesture of international solidarity, while he was hiding in his Ramallah compound. This after the Pesach bombing in which a Palestinian suicide bomber blew up 26 civilians. None of the activists who went to "support" Arafat visited the families or the victims of the bombings or expressed any sympathy.

The anti-globalization movement has become a receptacle for propaganda. The receptiveness for fabricated stories of massacres (like Jenin massacre that never happened), followed by vitriolic denunciations without any viable proof, is pure bigotry. Such behavior forms part of a global pattern of denial in response to increasingly lethal anti-Semitism. It seems that global social justice holds that you are "guilty until proven innocent."

The anti-globalization movement engages in selective amnesia when it comes to other countries. Social justice for a country like Saudi Arabia involves a punishment of flogging of women, no matter what the crime. The religious intolerance of other Arab nations in the Middle East, or the oppression metered out by African crackpot dictatorships fails to show up on the radar screen of this movement. How about considering the subjugated Cypriots, Tibetans, the refugees in the Balkans, and the litany of displaced peoples currently in Africa? The only institutionalized racism in the region by the state-run media of the Arab world is continually ignored. All of Israel's neighbors ignore its citizens' human rights, democratic values and freedoms. The anti-globalization movement cannot expect global social justice to take place when their spotlight is always on Israel, and they support a terrorist organization whose human rights record is appalling.

Controversial right-wing Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi notes a "strange unanimity" between Islamic terrorism and anti-globalization protestors -- both "enemies of Western civilization." This is overstepping the mark. The association between the Arab world and the anti-globalization movement has its roots in a common opposition to American "domination." Israel and the Jews represent American capitalism. Thus attacking Israel gives the movement a good excuse to vent its anti-Semitic frustrations. Besides the anti-Israel component of the protest movement, its social justice and humanitarian agenda is commendable. Many activist movements have had similar liberal aspirations in the past. Many have fallen spectacularly like the socialist movement, whilst many have had outstanding successes, like the anti-Apartheid movement.

If the anti-globalization movement is to be taken seriously in the future, it needs to stop sympathizing and implicitly supporting terrorists and to remove the Middle East conflict from its agenda. Rather than battle against Israel, they should support it as a staging ground for Western values and democracy in the Middle East.


All we are saying is Give globalisation a chance... - paul123

"Sluggy"
May 11th, 2004, 08:20 PM
I know Im gonna get bad rap if JR reads this for my song title.....

njguido11
May 11th, 2004, 08:44 PM
thank god a few people making sense around here finally

"Sluggy"
May 11th, 2004, 08:53 PM
glory hallalua

Cam'ron Giles
May 11th, 2004, 08:57 PM
The thing that bothers me the most about this thread are the Americans who are afraid to be called nationalist by the euros if they defend their country...Coming to the defense of your country is not to say that you are defending the current "White House" . We defend America and we are branded "nationalist" as if thats a dirty word but they can sing the praises of Europe all day long...:rolleyes: Truth be told...my parents were imigrants here and I thank GOD that they found their way here and raised me to appreciate the things that living here made possible and also to appreciate the history of black people in this country and never take for granted the blood that has been shed to make it possible. I love living here and as long as I dont hang my head with a defeatist attitude...I am fine...Would not want to live ANYPLACE else...Certainly not in Europe...:D

saki
May 11th, 2004, 09:03 PM
The thing that bothers me the most about this thread are the Americans who are afraid to be called nationalist by the euros if they defend their country...Coming to the defense of your country is not to say that you are defending the current "White House" . We defend America and we are branded "nationalist" as if thats a dirty word but they can sing the praises of Europe all day long...:rolleyes: Truth be told...my parents were imigrants here and I thank GOD that they found their way here and raised me to appreciate the things that living here made possible and also to appreciate the history of black people in this country and never take for granted the blood that has been shed to make it possible. I love living here and as long as I dont hang my head with a defeatist attitude...I am fine...Would not want to live ANYPLACE else...Certainly not in Europe...:D
I won't speak for anyone else, but all I was trying to do was explain why Europeans can be just as happy to live in Europe. Of course, you're entitled not to want to live anywhere other than the U.S. - the only people I've taken issue with in this thread are those who've said that all/most Europeans would prefer to live in the U.S. and refused to take our word for it when we say that that's not true. This thread isn't really about people "attacking" the U.S. so much as explaining why we personally wouldn't want to live there. I don't quite understand why that's being taken as an insult. :confused:

"Sluggy"
May 11th, 2004, 09:05 PM
I am not afraid to say i am a total NATIONALIST. I believe in the constitution. I regret that our forefathers raped Africa. But I am proud that a lot of injustices have been changed for the better. I am proud to be American. A lot of people do not feel much national pride. My coworker is half mexican, half German and has always lived in France or New Zealand. She says she has no nationalist sentiment at all or any attachment that could be considered nationalist to those countries or their histories. She enveys that I have those sentiments. so i am not one to hide my nationalist tendencies that come out especially under such harsh criticism from people from other countries.

Cam'ron Giles
May 11th, 2004, 09:07 PM
I am not afraid to say i am a total NATIONALIST. I believe in the constitution. I regret that our forefathers raped Africa. But I am proud that a lot of injustices have been changed for the better. I am proud to be American. A lot of people do not feel much national pride. My coworker is half mexican, half German and has always lived in France or New Zealand. She says she has no nationalist sentiment at all or any attachment that could be considered nationalist to those countries or their histories. She enveys that I have those sentiments. so i am not one to hide my nationalist tendencies that come out especially under such harsh criticism from people from other countries.
:worship:

saki
May 11th, 2004, 09:10 PM
I am not afraid to say i am a total NATIONALIST. I believe in the constitution. I regret that our forefathers raped Africa. But I am proud that a lot of injustices have been changed for the better. I am proud to be American. A lot of people do not feel much national pride. My coworker is half mexican, half German and has always lived in France or New Zealand. She says she has no nationalist sentiment at all or any attachment that could be considered nationalist to those countries or their histories. She enveys that I have those sentiments. so i am not one to hide my nationalist tendencies that come out especially under such harsh criticism from people from other countries.
Oh, come on! What harsh criticism? Find some criticism from people from other countries that you take issue with. All anyone here has said is that the U.S. isn't top of the list of countries they want to live in and given reasons why they prefer other places. I haven't said that you're criticising my country for not wanting to live there, have I? Can't you just accept that some people have different opinions on where they want to live without seeing it as anti-American?

Cam'ron Giles
May 11th, 2004, 09:14 PM
Oh, come on! What harsh criticism? Find some criticism from people from other countries that you take issue with. All anyone here has said is that the U.S. isn't top of the list of countries they want to live in and given reasons why they prefer other places. I haven't said that you're criticising my country for not wanting to live there, have I? Can't you just accept that some people have different opinions on where they want to live without seeing it as anti-American?
Saki: it's not just this thread...Despite what they say...America is bashed daily on this board. Most of these people will SAY that they would rather move to Bagdahd right now than New York...Yeah right...:rolleyes:

*JR*
May 11th, 2004, 09:18 PM
I know Im gonna get bad rap if JR reads this for my song title.....
:lol: Paul, luv ya, man. You're One Of the most thoughtful ppl here, even if we don't Always Agree. If le Placid Parisian wasn't in love with this, this... :rolleyes: Belgian, sacre bleu :p that she's marrying in Sept, I'd fix you up with her! ;)

njguido11
May 11th, 2004, 09:26 PM
I won't speak for anyone else, but all I was trying to do was explain why Europeans can be just as happy to live in Europe. Of course, you're entitled not to want to live anywhere other than the U.S. - the only people I've taken issue with in this thread are those who've said that all/most Europeans would prefer to live in the U.S. and refused to take our word for it when we say that that's not true. This thread isn't really about people "attacking" the U.S. so much as explaining why we personally wouldn't want to live there. I don't quite understand why that's being taken as an insult. :confused:
You are missing the point. he wasnt referring to this particular thread. Everyday on this board you can find anti american comments made. The whole americans are so arrogant and blah blah blah. 2 me all these stupid generalizations about americans just shows all of your ignorance.

Giuliano
May 11th, 2004, 09:29 PM
Everyday on this board, some people have the impression that some Americans are arrogant asses. 1-1

Cam'ron Giles
May 11th, 2004, 09:34 PM
Everyday on this board, some people have the impression that some Americans are arrogant asses. 1-1
Arrogant asses because we love our country? The fact of the matter is America is the only super power and most people resent that...Maybe it's not arrogance on our part but jelousy on yours...it's a very fine line...;)

arn
May 11th, 2004, 09:38 PM
I won't speak for anyone else, but all I was trying to do was explain why Europeans can be just as happy to live in Europe. Of course, you're entitled not to want to live anywhere other than the U.S. - the only people I've taken issue with in this thread are those who've said that all/most Europeans would prefer to live in the U.S. and refused to take our word for it when we say that that's not true. This thread isn't really about people "attacking" the U.S. so much as explaining why we personally wouldn't want to live there. I don't quite understand why that's being taken as an insult. :confused:
Exactly, well said :)

Giuliano
May 11th, 2004, 09:39 PM
Arrogant asses because we love our country? The fact of the matter is America is the only super power and most people resent that...Maybe it's not arrogance on our part but jelousy on yours...it's a very fine line...;)
Really not, I assure you. I have American friends (I'm playing tennis with one tomorrow) and they're some of the nicest people I know. But like Saki, I'm appalled at the fact that some in this thread can't believe that we're just fine in Europe and that our ultimate goal is not to settle down in the States.

Vive la France! <---- arrogance?

Josh
May 11th, 2004, 09:41 PM
http://europa.eu.int/abc/symbols/emblem/images/eu-flag.gif
LONG LIVE EUROPE! :D

^even more arrogant! ;)

Cam'ron Giles
May 11th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Really not, I assure you. I have American friends (I'm playing tennis with one tomorrow) and they're some of the nicest people I know. But like Saki, I'm appalled at the fact that some in this thread can't believe that we're just fine in Europe and that our ultimate goal is not to settle down in the States.

Vive la France! <---- arrogance?
I could care less where you want to live...that did not come from me...You should love France...I am sure it's a wonderful country...but so is mine...:wavey: