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Volcana
May 9th, 2004, 04:37 AM
Words from an American

“We have become a zealous, arrogant and deeply racist country. Not the traditional black-white racism of our respective youth but one that has elevated ‘American’ to a race that is above all others.”

The above quote appears in the following article
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4900136/, ostensibly from a 'professional ... at senior levels in the American government'. Professional meaning as distinct form a political appointee. It's an unnamed source, so it's suspect.

My question is, is that how non-Americans view the United States?

To, me this is important. I want to see the targeting of civilians as a form of warfare ended. The United States can't do that by itself. And the rest of the world can't do it without us. We won't wind up working together if that's what you believe we are. I understand that I'm only giving two choices in a world where 90% of it is a grey area in the middle. That's deliberate.

I would like to restrict this poll to non-Americans. In practice, I doubt that wil happen because I expect a lot of Americans to vote, and to vote that we're not racist. Howeverm I still ask that Americans refrain from voting. We nned to see how our brothers and sisters view us.

To those of you who are tired of 'liberal whining, etc, etc.' Tell me how we're going to win the War on Terror without help from the rest of the world.

You call it liberal.
I call it pragmatic.

PointBlank
May 9th, 2004, 04:40 AM
wheres Poll?

PointBlank
May 9th, 2004, 04:40 AM
Yay 100%

This is not all Americans .. but alot

azza
May 9th, 2004, 04:50 AM
Yes all 99.8% of them this exclues Mandy and DD :) :kiss:

njguido11
May 9th, 2004, 05:00 AM
i really think im about done with this website. Its sickening how much hatred their is for americans and everyone making these statements are just plain ignorant.

~ The Leopard ~
May 9th, 2004, 05:03 AM
The way the poll is actually worded I probably should have voted yes. But I don't think this is really about racism, which seems to be what Volcana is getting at from the first post, so I voted "no". I don't think Americans are especially racist.

All groups of warriors in history have been trained to dehumanize the enemy, not necessarily on racial grounds. I think that modern American soldiers are probably less like this than most in history, or in the current world

The point is, nations such as America should not adopt that ethos at all. They need to adopt the most humane possible approach to warfare (including the treatment of prisoners) both because that is good in itself and because it means that America can get at least some moral high ground. It is difficult to motivate people to fight without resorting to this kind of dehumanisation, but it just has to be done.

Not that we (meaning America and its allies, one of which is my own country) should have launched this particular war in the first place. But that is another story. Some of America's military actions really are justified, and they must not be tainted in this way.

Volcana
May 9th, 2004, 05:45 AM
The way the poll is actually worded I probably should have voted yes. But I don't think this is really about racism, which seems to be what Volcana is getting at from the first post, so I voted "no". I don't think Americans are especially racist.
Thanks Leop. The article defined 'racist' in that particular way. As if 'Americans' were a race. It's not the normal usage, but it was very surprising to me to hear an American use that construction. A 'racism' that transcends 'race', as it were.

Volcana
May 9th, 2004, 05:50 AM
i really think im about done with this website. Its sickening how much hatred their is for americans and everyone making these statements are just plain ignorant.
If you polled all the people around youand asked if you were 'purple', and they voted 85% yes, yet you had never, ever though of yourself as a purple person, would you conclude they were all assholes? Or would you at least consider that maybe you had more purple in you than you thought?

I had a boss who used to say, "when you run into the 17th asshole of the day, it's time to look in the mirror."

By and large, the people on this website don't hate America or Americans.

ys
May 9th, 2004, 05:54 AM
Yes, many of them think that they are better than everybody else.. But.. Looking at how dominant and influential this country is in the modern world I would think that they might have a case.. As well as I would attribute a serious share of other people disliking America to jealousy about that influence, wealth and power.

Nobody's perfect.

BigB08822
May 9th, 2004, 06:14 AM
You only hear about the Americans who have this mentality because it is what makes good news. I know that "most" Americans are not like this! I do not think I am better than anyone else just because I am from America. Its just not true. National pride is one thing, but "zealous, arrogant" is just not true for MOST Americans.

Wigglytuff
May 9th, 2004, 07:09 AM
in my exprience as an non american living in america, its not that most middle of the road americans are "Arrognant" its that they are proudly ignorant. allowing themselves to believe everything they see in the news, ignore commonsense and rational, in favor of some wierd poorly formulated idea of the "american way/dream".

are all americans like this?
no.

katrientje
May 9th, 2004, 08:01 AM
I can't say it's true for all of the american people, that wouldn't be fair, but their president certainly fits the category and I am afraid he's changing world's history in a very very bad way as we speak

X-Lurker
May 9th, 2004, 10:13 AM
I probably should've voted "Yes" but I went with "No" because of the word "zealous". That implies to me a radicalism that is in marked excess to that of others, and I don't think that's the case when it comes to American "nationalism".

...And nationalism is what I think you're getting at here. I think nationalism is (almost always) a stupid and dangerous thing. Americans are nationalistic, but so are people around the world. I actually think America is NOT one of the most nationalistic countries on earth; I don't think it holds a candle to many countries where nationality and race are interchangeable. There is a very strong strain of anti-nationalism in the U.S. (exhibit one: Volcana :)), which isn't the case in most places.

...And yes people "hate" America, but only because it's #1; people hate America like Americans hate New York.

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 12:34 PM
I've made many American friends via the internet (and before that, youth exchanges), they're not zealous, arrogant and racist at all. I've found Americans to be very open, extremely nice, and very easy to get along with.

However.....that is NOT the message you're sending out to the world. I've come to make a difference between the Americans I know and Americans 'in general', how I see them from how the US is portraying itself:

1. God Bless America! (and f*** everyone else). Every time I hear that sentence, I shudder. What makes America so much better that America should be the 'blessed' place and not the rest of the world?
2. We're the greatest country on earth. By saying that, you make people focus on all the bad things. You don't expect others to say, "yeah, you're the greatest", do you? Of course people will counter that statement by pointing out all the bad things about America.
American nationalism comes across as gloating. And when you stick out your tongue at others, "nana, we won!", then you can hardly call the negative feelings other have towards you as unfounded. All that flag waving, singing the national anthem at every turn, that pledge of allegiance thingie in schools, you can hardly call that humble, can you? What I've noticed is that to many Americans these things are so normal, that they presume it's like that everywhere else in the world. I remember the reaction of an American to the question of a Belgian journalist about the American flag in his garden, "well, I have an American flag in my garden, just like you surely have a Belgian flag in your garden." Erh, no, we don't. We don't have little Belgian flags waving on the roof of our cars, we don't have Belgian flags in our front yard. We hardly know our national anthem, the word Belgium and God are never uttered in the same sentence. When we first visited the US, we wanted to go to church on Sunday. We entered a church, the first things we heard was people singing "America America", we left right away. To the outside world, Amercian nationalism is considered very extreme and arrogant. Judging by the reaction of Americans I know, they don't see it as arrogant at all, because it's because it's become so normal. So in a sense, Americans don't mean to be arrogant, but they do come across as such. Part of the reason is probably that it's not balanced by a healthy dosis of self-humour and self-criticism. People don't mind Australian or British nationalism as much, because they're able to laugh at themselves. E.g. the difference between the reaction of the American relay swimming team after they won gold at the olympics vs. the Australian skater who unexpectedly won gold. That's what the world sees.
We're being bombarded with American movies that portray the Americans as the goodies who're going to save the world and other nationalities as baddies. Just think of the number of films in which the Brits are stereotyped as stuck-up aristrocrats who have no life, who never laugh, until a free-spirited American comes along and changes all that :rolleyes: Then there's one film where it's the other way around (Love Actually) and I hear all these people cry that the film is Anti-American.

3. the foreign policies of the US. International laws seem to apply to everyone except for the US. The US is lecturing the world about allowing free trade, yet as soon as the steel industry isn't going too well, the US turns out to be just as protectionist as the rest. We all make mistakes, confessing to making them is the hardest bit of all, but oh so important. Because the US refuses to admit to past mistakes, we're not convinced the same mistakes won't be made again. I realise that in the American press, amongst American people, there is a lot of criticism and those issues are being adressed, what's officially relayed to the world is always without criticism, always firm, "we're right, you were wrong."

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 12:49 PM
It is pathetic to ask if America is racist. Sure there are racist elements, there are also so many people that are not at all racist. As far as arrogance, I think given some of the insults that are thrown at us, it pricks our egos and then our arrogant tendencies come out. What is also pathetic is that with all the criticsm dished out against us, we are the country to which so many foreigners seek to come to make a living and life for their children. So if you hate us so much why you coming? Also, i have spoken to so many immigrants to America and they always say they love it here. So many people have lived the American dream from your countries of origin, manage to find homes, jobs and frequently send money home so their relatives kind eat, read, have tvs, etc. Why dont you people who think were racist, arrogant, homophobic, etc. come and see that the United States for yourselves. It is soooo large and varied and has so many different types of communities and lifestyles that to generalize us as racist stupid arrogant etc., is really just plain dumb. Its a great place with arguably the kindest people around. Its not the best place in the world to live, but id venture to say that you get something for everyone, mountains, hills, plains, oceans, deserts rivers, tropical environments. check it out!

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 01:03 PM
Gentenaire - I also find American nationalism too much. We have a lot of nationalistic tendencies and maybe we always have. America is very unique and the way it was created instills a lot of pride in us. Also you tell me how a country can be the worlds leading military power, fight wars such as WWII, and other wars (be them with or without merit) lose tremendous casualties in wars, and sustain a large defending or fighting force without having nationalistic and/or religious dogma. It just isnt possible to do. For all the arrogance you see, you dont see the average american. who as far as i can tell is just like the average frenchman - wants a beer at end of the day and watch sports on tv. It is silly to generalize about US!

gentenaire
May 9th, 2004, 01:27 PM
For all the arrogance you see, you dont see the average american. who as far as i can tell is just like the average frenchman - wants a beer at end of the day and watch sports on tv. It is silly to generalize about US!

I can easily believe that. No, the average American is not what the world sees. Whose fault is that?

tfannis
May 9th, 2004, 01:32 PM
I can't vote on this poll...it's not as simple as yes or no.

Yes, Americans come across very arrogant. Their President is horrible and the fact he still gets 50% of the American votes is very worrying. When I see the flags, hear they sing their anthem, listen to what its authorities have to say I shiver. It's supposed to be a free country but when I see the reactions on Janet's boob, when I hear the opinions on abortus, gay people and even evolution theories I laugh out loud....soooo incredible conservative, religous and well, imo, pathetic. Death penalty still allowed!! And that's supposed to be a civilized country?? Its politics outside the US are even worse....Bush and his gouvernment are one of the worst things that happened to the world the last century.
On the other hand, however,...50 % of the Americans don't vote for Bush and 50% of such a big country...that's a lot of people...Funny thing is I had this conversation with my dad yesterday....We came across a pub with an American flag hanging above its window and my father really got angry and said he would like to paint a swastica on that flag. I told him that's a very racist thing to do...it would be wrong to generalize all Americans..I'm sure many of them are as upset about Bush and co as I am...Here in Belgium the racist party is gaining votes every year and is becoming the third biggest....but that doen't make us all racists...So I can't vote on this poll, but the image I have (the last couple of years) of America isn't great to say the least.

Dava
May 9th, 2004, 02:27 PM
Yeah but mostly your politicians, I dont think every single American person is arrogent, my best friend is American. Her sense of nationalism is a bit weird considering shes hasent lived there for so long, but still I guess its har background. But still they bitch about how certain things over here arent as good.

Volcana
May 9th, 2004, 03:15 PM
It is pathetic to ask if America is racist. Sure there are racist elements, there are also so many people that are not at all racist.
I'm not sure from your post you're using 'racist' the same way as the quote did.

Volcana
May 9th, 2004, 03:31 PM
* Chechen president assassinated

Technique - Bomb in superstructure of stadium
Location stadium, occupied for celebration
Dead 32 Dead (at least) including President Akhmad Kadyrov
Wounded 46 Wounded (at least)

* Karachi mosque attack kills 15
Technique - Suicide bomb, personal harness
Location Mosque, during prayers
Dead 15 (at least)
Wounded 125 (at least)


If we can't find some way to work together with mutual respect, how are we going to stop things like this?

I could just as easily have listed Americans calling in missing strikes on whole city blocks to get two guys with a mortar, or the Israelis taking out innocent bystanders while assassinating Hamas leaders, or the rebels in the Sudan forcing people into the desert to die. Or a Palestinian suicdie bomber taking out a Tel Aviv supermarket, World Trade plane attack or the poison gas attack in the subway in Tokyo.

It's all killing the innocent to achieve your political ends.

For those of you who say 'everybody does it', well I oppose it when EVERYBODY does it. There's a reason why this against the rules of warfare. it's because it leads to Total War. Wipe out everybody on the other side to the last man, woman and child.

The United States HAS to be involved in this fight. We're the only ones with enough money and resources to fight it. But the rest of the world is a necessary component. The necessary KNOWLEDGE is held in each individual country around the world.

Maybe it just that with the internet, I have access to media sources around the world, but it seemes to me that more and more people are realizing that targeting civilians is an effective military counter to convention arms and armies.

Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City because he wanted to make a political point. He knew innocent people would die. But making a strike against a vastly more powerful force was more important to him.

If you have any imagination at all, you can see that this way lies chaos.

We have to identify the things that stop us from working effectively together.

tfannis
May 9th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Well one of those things that stop us from working effectively together is the President of the US (and his conservative republican buddies). Anti-americanism is bigger than ever in Europe and the increase of the last couple of years is his fault (in fact, it's not only his fault, it's also the fault of the far more dangerous creeps, telling their doll Bush what to say - Cheney, Wolfowitz,...). I hope the elections in the US this year will help us a step forward in bringing back together the United nations, but the alternative for Bush, John Kerry, still has to gain mine (and I suppose many other's) confidence.
Whenever a new and good leader arises in the US, I'm sure our view on Americans in total wil change too.

Black Mamba.
May 9th, 2004, 05:54 PM
Most people in the USA could care less what people in other countries think. It's just how it is.

Andy T
May 9th, 2004, 06:11 PM
Not all Americans but obviously those in power are and by extension those who put them there (who are either these things or just plain bloody stupid).

Fortunately history from ancient Egypt to the 20th century tells us that every empire implodes upon itself eventually.

njguido11
May 9th, 2004, 06:22 PM
NEW POLL. Is the rest of the world that jealous of americans lives that they have to continuosly bash are nation. THe generalizations made about a few americans is absolutely ridiculous. Im sure there are arrogant people in every country throughout the world. To even ask a question like that just shows me your arrogance and ignorance.

Black Mamba.
May 9th, 2004, 06:26 PM
NEW POLL. Is the rest of the world that jealous of americans lives that they have to continuosly bash are nation. THe generalizations made about a few americans is absolutely ridiculous. Im sure there are arrogant people in every country throughout the world. To even ask a question like that just shows me your arrogance and ignorance.


As the most powerful nation on earth we are held to a totally different standard. I know it's not fair, but that's just how it is.

upperkut
May 9th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Volcana, as with every situation there are at least two points of view and the truth usually lies in between... that's why your poll is misguided or at least worded improperly... man is not a homogenuous being and every man's society has its better and its more difficult elements, and usually those harder to understand elements are the ones that define that society to an outsider... to this day, what most people know or remember about certains tribal societies of papua New Guinea is the widespread practice of cannibalism or beheading, even though that practice was common only during warring times... that's why hanging flags in cars or naming national sports champions "world champions" or having little towns everywhere claim titles such as "world's best or biggest or capital" and so on, strikes foreigners as a little bit odd and certainly unique, but that does not define America as being arrogant per se... it's only national pride. When proud becomes so obsessive to the point of belittleing other people's accomplishments, that's when you become arrogant.

The United States is a very young country with a large ethnic melting pot of cultures and people... Nationalism is a sure way to keep this melange united and under control... what few people seem to remember too, is that the first English white settlers to America , the so called pilgrims, were in fact a religiously persecuted, extremely conservative and puritan sector of the old English society... Their presence, influence and beliefs are still felt today and seen in things like the Ivy League and the primordial conservative views of the heartland...

ptkten
May 9th, 2004, 07:16 PM
I agree with a lot of the sentiments in here. The average American is not a bad person, and certainly is not "racist" but they are very proud of the fact that the United States is the most powerful country in the world. When an administration like the Bush administration is in power, it can kind of brainwash Americans into thinking certain countries are bad such as when many people began to dislike France just because of statements from some conservative talk show hosts and politicians. That being said, the majority of Americans respect other cultures and understand that we can not go at it alone in the world, and need to work together with other people and other countries even though our governments may have some differences in opinions.

And those who constantly criticize American people as all being rude and arrogant, probably haven't been to the U.S. or met an American anyway (i.e. Azza :rolleyes: ).

"Sluggy"
May 9th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Not all Americans but obviously those in power are and by extension those who put them there (who are either these things or just plain bloody stupid).

Fortunately history from ancient Egypt to the 20th century tells us that every empire implodes upon itself eventually.


So you are saying that it is fortunate that the United States will implode? Ridiculous. Whos supposed to save the world the next time some country tries to take over the world. i wouldnt want to see the day when the US implodes, but you obviously would!!!!!!!!!!! SORRY AINT GONNA HAPPEN EVER!!!! We have suffered through depressions, war, practically civil war in the 60s. We are not ever going to implode. That is such a joke. There are very few americans whod like to see that open. Rome imploded for reasons that dont exist in the US. Other empires overextended themselves with colonies. the US and its territories are extremely cohesive. sure, you have elements of society that have rioted etc. but your dream of American implosion is so far from a reality, and its just not gonna happen. But let me guess, if it happens you are going to go there and help them fix the system the right way?

tfannis
May 9th, 2004, 08:46 PM
Most people in the USA could care less what people in other countries think. It's just how it is.
Indeed....we get more than once the impression that many Amercians think they're alone on this world. Or that many Americans think the US is an example for the rest of the world and that all other countries are poor, uneducated and uncivilized. Pretty sad :(

Mateo Mathieu
May 9th, 2004, 08:55 PM
It's a tricky question, I mean, I can't vote both. I'd vote for both then.

Colin B
May 9th, 2004, 09:07 PM
Words from an American

“We have become a zealous, arrogant and deeply racist country. Not the traditional black-white racism of our respective youth but one that has elevated ‘American’ to a race that is above all others.”
This is NOT racism; it is XENOPHOBIA or fear/dislike of foreigners.

You find it in every country on Earth and a we're ALL a little bit guilty of it.

:o Even me! :o



:rolleyes:

Wigglytuff
May 9th, 2004, 11:51 PM
As the most powerful nation on earth we are held to a totally different standard. I know it's not fair, but that's just how it is.


nope americans arrogant all. never have overly high views of themselves. never. nope not americans.

Black Mamba.
May 10th, 2004, 12:24 AM
nope americans arrogant all. never have overly high views of themselves. never. nope not americans.


Since when have you met every American to say we are all arrogant. Sure our President may be arrogant, but most people aren't.

Volcana
May 11th, 2004, 06:23 AM
And yet, right after 9/11, virtually every country on earth was offering us help. North Korea, Iran, China, even Libya condemned the attack on 9/11. So three years ago, we were not considered so arrogant, or bigoted that we were not worthy of help in our hour of need. Our worst enemies offerred help.

So how can this poll be running 6-to-1 against the USA?

Wigglytuff
May 11th, 2004, 06:32 AM
And yet, right after 9/11, virtually every country on earth was offering us help. North Korea, Iran, China, even Libya condemned the attack on 9/11. So three years ago, we were not considered so arrogant, or bigoted that we were not worthy of help in our hour of need. Our worst enemies offerred help.

So how can this poll be running 6-to-1 against the USA?


you answered your own question.

after 9/11 the us, instead of accepting help and making effort to find out what really happened, turned into well arrogant and bigoted. additionally declaring war on iraq (still no nuclear weapons found) AGAISNT the will of the UN.

its like this: if something bad happens to you, and people offer you help, instead of taking it you point a gun at those trying to help, and cant then turn around and cry "why doesnt anyone like me, why do people say i'm mean?". :wavey: :wavey:

Wigglytuff
May 11th, 2004, 06:35 AM
i wasnt saying you personally i was saying the situation as a whole

Volcana
May 11th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Volcana, as with every situation there are at least two points of view and the truth usually lies in between... that's why your poll is misguided or at least worded improperly...
I took the wording from the quote. We only get some much room for the title, and the quote was the inspiration for the poll. Also, some of this comes from the 'people have short memories' department. Considering just how nastily some Americans treated any country who didn't back invading Iraq, I suppose I shouldn't be especially surprised by the poll results.

It would have taken a statesman we just don't have to say France, Germany, Belgium et al "Based on the reasons we gave you for invading Iraq, it appears in retrospect you were correct to oppose us. However, getting rid of Saddam Hussein is a very pleasant side effect for all concerned. Now, we could use a little help. What do you need from us to give it?"

Instead, try using google.com to seach on 'Axis of Weasel'.

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=Axis+of+Weasel&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images

I like paying taxes as much as the next guy, but is it really necessary to alienate the few countires in the world with enough money to help defray the cost of this? France and Germany paid a lot of the bill for Oil War I the first Gulf War. Treated like friends who disagreed instead of enemies, they might at least have helped defray the cost of the rebuidling effort. Can't say I'm surprised that NATO just politely declined to get involved as well.

Whether you support the war or not, $150 billion dollars and counting, direct from the American taxpayers, is a chunk of change. With an estimated 50-60 billion a year to go.

But I digress.

upperkut - You made some good points.

Kart
May 12th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Obviously I voted no. You can never generalise about a whole nation.

What strikes me from Americans I've met and when I've visited there is that generally you guys seem to be really encouraged from a young age to learn about your history and take pride in your country and its achievements. Lots of playing your anthem and flags all over the place. You post a union jack in your window here and people think you're national front.

That's a stark contrast from what I've experienced growing up here in the UK - albeit as originally a non-Englishman but I'm still a British citizen.

I can see how people not brought up in a similar way can see pride as arrogance (and it can easily become that) and of course, sadly, America is the place that everyone loves to hate.

DutchieGirl
May 12th, 2004, 12:21 AM
All that flag waving, singing the national anthem at every turn, that pledge of allegiance thingie in schools, you can hardly call that humble, can you? What I've noticed is that to many Americans these things are so normal, that they presume it's like that everywhere else in the world. I remember the reaction of an American to the question of a Belgian journalist about the American flag in his garden, "well, I have an American flag in my garden, just like you surely have a Belgian flag in your garden." Erh, no, we don't. We don't have little Belgian flags waving on the roof of our cars, we don't have Belgian flags in our front yard.

Just a little story pertaining to the flags (whethere or not it's true, I don't know, my Dad told me it was on the news here recently). An Aussie woman married an American man and went to live in the US with him. Everyone in their street had American flags out the front of their house. This couple decided to put an American AND an Australian flag out, and the people in the street were really pissed off about the Aussie flag being there. They made her take it down and said that she was breaking the law by having it there! :rolleyes: I mean it's not like they didn't have the American flag as well...so I don't see what the big deal is about having an Aussie flag there, especially as we are allies (which was mentioned to the other people living there, but they didn't care at all). I mean in Melbourne, we have a big Greek and a big Italian population. When it comes to soccer WC and stuff, those people (alot of whom were born here in Oz) go around waving their Greek or Italian flags, and we don't give a rats...

Plus, I saw on the news one day a story about an Aussie (Luke Schenscher) who is playing college ball in the states, and his team made it to the finals. It showed him making a shot and some kids were waving Aussie flags. The annoncer (American) then said "Oh, are those British or Australian flags?" (Now I don't know if there is a British player on his team as well, but I highly doubt it, so I mean come on...that does sound very arrogant that he can't even tell the difference between the flags of the two countries that are the US's biggest allies at the moment (not that I agree with us being a US ally anyway...but that's a whole different topic).

njguido11
May 12th, 2004, 12:23 AM
Obviously I voted no. You can never generalise about a whole nation.

What strikes me from Americans I've met and when I've visited there is that generally you guys seem to be really encouraged from a young age to learn about your history and take pride in your country and its achievements. Lots of playing your anthem and flags all over the place. You post a union jack in your window here and people think you're national front.

That's a stark contrast from what I've experienced growing up here in the UK - albeit as originally a non-Englishman but I'm still a British citizen.

I can see how people not brought up in a similar way can see pride as arrogance (and it can easily become that) and of course, sadly, America is the place that everyone loves to hate.


Where do all of you learn this shit from. yeah they play are anthems at sporting events but thats about it. i dont see nationalisic pride anywhere. after 911 there was flags around alot but thats about it. yeah people run around talking about how great america is, please if anything people here dont appreciate how good they have it. we learn about american history in school. do you not learn about european history?

Kart
May 12th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Where do all of you learn this shit from. yeah they play are anthems at sporting events but thats about it. i dont see nationalisic pride anywhere. after 911 there was flags around alot but thats about it. yeah people run around talking about how great america is, please if anything people here dont appreciate how good they have it. we learn about american history in school. do you not learn about european history?
Well done on learning about American history at school, what a shame you missed out on the class to speak to people politely :rolleyes:.

I dropped history as quickly as I could, something I regret now but at the time it was all about making my grades.

Colin B
May 12th, 2004, 12:36 AM
On the subject of nationalism.

The fact we in Europe are put off by overt displays of nationalism is a legacy of pre-war Germany's ultra-nationalism and the subsequent use of national flags and songs as a symbol of (as Kart said) far-right groups.

:)

Colin B
May 12th, 2004, 12:46 AM
Where do all of you learn this shit from. yeah they play are anthems at sporting events but thats about it. i dont see nationalisic pride anywhere. after 911 there was flags around alot but thats about it. yeah people run around talking about how great america is, please if anything people here dont appreciate how good they have it. we learn about american history in school. do you not learn about european history?
I think some people were a bit upset that following Sept 11, every time you changed television channel, there'd be another bunch of flag waving Americans shouting YOOWESSAYY!!, YOOWESSAYY!! at the world in a very agressive way despite the outpouring of sympathy from around the globe and despite the fact that many families from around the world had lost loved ones that day.

Yes, America was hurting but so where many other nations!

:)

Calvin
May 12th, 2004, 08:06 AM
I had to vote yes on this poll.
I have visited the US (before 9/11) and met nothing but really kind and generous people.
On the other hand, the question raised isn't "are all american individuals arrogant", but "is america as a nation arrogant". Well, if the person you elect to represent your country is G.W.Bush, no one should be surprised that america is perceived as the most arrogant nation of the globe...

(OK, so the majority of americans did not vote for GWB, but thats a whole other story)

"Sluggy"
May 12th, 2004, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=inkyfan]Just a little story pertaining to the flags (whethere or not it's true, I don't know, my Dad told me it was on the news here recently). An Aussie woman married an American man and went to live in the US with him. Everyone in their street had American flags out the front of their house. This couple decided to put an American AND an Australian flag out, and the people in the street were really pissed off about the Aussie flag being there. They made her take it down and said that she was breaking the law by having it there! :rolleyes: I mean it's not like they didn't have the American flag as well...so I don't see what the big deal is about having an Aussie flag there, especially as we are allies (which was mentioned to the other people living there, but they didn't care at all). I mean in Melbourne, we have a big Greek and a big Italian population. When it comes to soccer WC and stuff, those people (alot of whom were born here in Oz) go around waving their Greek or Italian flags, and we don't give a rats...


I dont believe that is true...that the law made someone take down an Australian flag. Im sure you have your facts all mixed up. In New Jersey we have a thriving Italian American population. Many put up Italian flags. It never ever causes a stir. I have never ever heard anyone ever criticize it. Perhaps if you put up a North Korean flag, it could cause a stir.......but an Australian flag.....give me a break!

bis2806
May 12th, 2004, 09:41 AM
aussies are american wannabes so that was a lesson taught to the australians :o

"Sluggy"
May 12th, 2004, 09:41 AM
I had to vote yes on this poll.
I have visited the US (before 9/11) and met nothing but really kind and generous people.
On the other hand, the question raised isn't "are all american individuals arrogant", but "is america as a nation arrogant". Well, if the person you elect to represent your country is G.W.Bush, no one should be surprised that america is perceived as the most arrogant nation of the globe...

(OK, so the majority of americans did not vote for GWB, but thats a whole other story)


I dont buy that argument if the people elected an idiot they must be idiots too. Firstly Gore should have one the election. Secondly, your argument is so rarely applied to other countries, just the US. Who was that Italian leader who called germans nazis, wanted women to stay home and raise kids, etc etc. Is it Cubans fault that they have Castro? hows about Musilini? I just think America is the country people love to criticize, where is the outrage regarding other countries that do ridiculous things...

Colin B
May 12th, 2004, 10:04 AM
hmm...i see. so our overt displays of nationalism is uncomfortable for europeans because it reminds them of their own past. i'll try to remember that. :p
Now now, Brianna, you're twisting my words (I thought we had agreed to be mature on nationalism debates).......

:smacked bottom smiley:

...but in a way, yes.

The rise of unsavoury reigimes in Europe's past have usually been accompanied by overly-overt displays of nationalism. It's a theory of mine that post WWII Europeans find it unsettling because of this.

I am NOT saying (and you know it :p ) that America is about to turn into a fascist dictatorship!


:D

Kirt12255
May 12th, 2004, 10:06 AM
:wavey: Politics children...Politics...best not to become involved when we know nothing of them.

Are Americans everything written above, maybe some of them. My classic case would be the show with Paris Hilton (escapes me at the moment) first series has just finished here...prime example....Yes Paris is arrogant...does that make the family she lived with arrogant because they abide by the same laws and share the same President? The fact is everyone is getting angry about something that is hot air. If you are dumb enough to believe newspapers or think Baywatch is the general life-style over there....then you will remain in your'e cocoon.

Many of you who have posted here with your'e countries flag that is non American...are showing your'e arrogance by believeing you have the right to call someone else arrogant....does that mean we should conform to the idea everyone in your'e country is a clone of youreself.

At the end of the day....it's far too easy to beat down on American people...become original and think for youreselves. IMO:wavey:

Giuliano
May 12th, 2004, 10:23 AM
Mitterrand said once : "Nationalism is war".

dudester
May 12th, 2004, 10:28 AM
que?

Monica_Rules
May 12th, 2004, 10:33 AM
I voted yes because i certainly don't think no but not all americans are like this.I hate it when people group whole nations/races/religions together and blame them all!

rand
May 12th, 2004, 10:50 AM
You only hear about the Americans who have this mentality because it is what makes good news. I know that "most" Americans are not like this! I do not think I am better than anyone else just because I am from America. Its just not true. National pride is one thing, but "zealous, arrogant" is just not true for MOST Americans.
No, but when you look at the other threads you often see a "my country is much better in..." things with the americans, it's not "I am better because" but "my country is better"....it doesn't make such a big difference imo....
and no, it's certainly not directed at everyone or even a majority, but it tends to get the impression over the country....

rand
May 12th, 2004, 10:52 AM
I dont buy that argument if the people elected an idiot they must be idiots too. Firstly Gore should have one the election. Secondly, your argument is so rarely applied to other countries, just the US. Who was that Italian leader who called germans nazis, wanted women to stay home and raise kids, etc etc. Is it Cubans fault that they have Castro? hows about Musilini? I just think America is the country people love to criticize, where is the outrage regarding other countries that do ridiculous things...
do you really believe Gore would have made such a big difference? at the time of the election I thought so too...but then I started thinking about the differences between clinton and Bush, and all I could think of is better International PR for Clinton....

rand
May 12th, 2004, 10:53 AM
I know it sounds strange to the lot of you that I think sometimes, and to be honest, I'm still sick about it, though it happened a year ago or so :o

Halardfan
May 12th, 2004, 11:21 AM
I voted No...Im well aware that there is an element in America who fit the given description, "middle American" would be the term I would use...

But I refuse to let this group define entirely what I think of America...while I certianly don't beleive it is the greatest country in the world, or somehow chosen as GW would have us believe, the US of A DOES have its good, even great aspects, and its many good and great people.

In England we have the "Little Englander"...small minded, wildly anti-European, convinced of the notion that England is a whole lot better than everywhere else. I think maybe everywhere has some of that kind of person.

Bill O'Reilly speaks of a cultural war going on in America right now, a vital battle between Conservatives and Liberals, of course he is on the Conservative side ;)...the rest of the world should realise it has common cause with liberal America, think what good a liberal America can do in the world...think also what harm the religiously motivated conservatives are doing.

Halardfan
May 12th, 2004, 11:40 AM
Hmmm...perhaps my views are coloured by seeing altogether too much of Fox News...for them, the war between the 'no-good pinko forces of secular liberal America' and the 'upstanding God-fearing warriors of Christian America' (in their eyes! ;)) is a central, recurring theme. They don't see much room for grey areas. ;)

Colin B
May 12th, 2004, 12:06 PM
arrogant? perhaps. but no more arrogant than the french or the british. we just display ours in a more frontier manner and tend to raise our pinkies less.
Arrogant? Nous? :lol:

But we did (eventually) learn to 'raised our pinkies' with an air of noblesse oblige.


:p

Colin B
May 12th, 2004, 12:37 PM
:lol: indeed! and that same air of noblesse oblige is practiced just as fervently in chiswick as it is in newcastle's west end. ain't life grand? :p
Newcastle has a West End? Splendid!

Do they have a branch of Fortnam and Mason? :confused:


;)

Andy_
May 12th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Volcana, first of all thanks for starting a discussion on a topic like this. And let me start by saying that the fact that this thread was started by a US citizen is worth quite a lot and, in itself, it proves that the statement you quoted is sadly a generalization.

It is true that some US Americans - are convinced that they belong to a better and superior race... and the worst thing is that they're the ones who govern your beautiful country. And since your country has always played an important role on a global scale, they're the ones who can also affect the life of each and every human being on this earth, to a certain extent. Over the last months we've seen the US government, and even more its President Mr. George W. Bush taking a number of actions that proved despicable, to say the least. And what strikes me as most offensive, especially for the same US population that he officially represents (although we may argue for hours on the way he was elected), is the way he can go on day after day denying all sorts of things, pretending he didn't know... and always blaming his mistakes on someone else. The CIA gave him wrong information as to the presence of mass destruction weapons in Iraq, and about the connection between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin laden... The International Red Cross never handed him the report concerning the use of violence and torture with war prisoners, both in Guantanamo and in Iraq... While Rumsfeld has done such a 'superb job' (his own words)... He keeps calling a 'peace-keeping' mission what evidently looks very much like a war, and that has seen an increase in the number of casualties, among US (and allies') soldiers as well as among Iraqi civilians and soldiers, day after day...

But thank God Bush and his government are NOT actually representative of US Americans. US Americans are the nice and helpful people I met there. The ones who would always give me tips and info, wherever I happened to be. The ones who kindly offered to take a pic for me and my friends, for the sake of giving us the chance to be all together in front of the camera. :) Some of the people I've met through this board are from the US. And they're among the most beautiful persons I've met in my life. :worship: US Americans are also those who can do funny things (funny for my Italian/European perception) like hanging a sign on the Golden Gate Bridge that says 'It is forbidden to throw objects AND missiles from the bridge' (:rolleyes: ain't missiles already included in the wider category 'objects'?!) or placing a label on mineral water that states that it's 'fat free' (:rolleyes: how could there be fats in mineral water water?!)... Still... I do like US Americans. :D And I'm especially fond of some of them. :hug: And the US Americans I've gotten in touch with personally, they're absolutely not racists. Opposite, they're open-minded and respectful of differences. I believe these US Americans only need to let their voice be heard a little bit more. And to try and do something to get rid of some of those in charge in their country at the moment :tape:

Words from an American

“We have become a zealous, arrogant and deeply racist country. Not the traditional black-white racism of our respective youth but one that has elevated ‘American’ to a race that is above all others.”

My question is, is that how non-Americans view the United States?

"Sluggy"
May 12th, 2004, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=Andy_]
It is true that some US Americans - are convinced that they belong to a better and superior race...


I think that the term for that is called ethnocentricism, though its more about a culture than it is about the color of skin or your lineage. It is not at all unique to some Americans though. These ideas have been around a long time. It seems to me that small groups of Christian peoples have this self-righteous idea that they are the best, there's is the only true religion and so on and so forth - that their religion is the only true religion, and that they are superior. I believe thats where some of these stereotyped behaviors come from - God is on our side we are the best attitude. If you are interested in learning more about Christian self proclaimed superiority and are interested on how to 'convert, repent, or be eternally damned' i can refer you to a few others on the board who can help you before its tooooo late. :fiery: Of course its only a tiny minority of people that think this way. But they are out there, and I feel they are a threat. but i suppose it is a wonderful alternative to other religions who contstantly seek to convert.

Thank you Andy for your kind words about Americans, it is greatly appreciated. I've spent more than 3 months in Germany and Austria and 3 years in France and I now believe that Americans on the whole are just as nice as people from other countries. Try to get someone to help you in the metro in france to help carry a baby stroler up some stairs you'll be standing around a long time........it is just not part of their mindset.

Ballbuster
May 12th, 2004, 09:19 PM
America WILL implode. Its happening right before our very eyes. America is over-extended - look at the deficit.

This girl is going down, how fortunate that I won't be around when she becomes a non-factor like say, France.

Gallofa
May 13th, 2004, 12:31 AM
But thank God Bush and his government are NOT actually representative of US Americans. Who voted to put Bush into power then? Bush is very representative of the USA I would think, didn't USA citizens elect him? weren't they supporting him in these "popularity" polls that they run every now and then until very recently? even now, what is his standing? Bush might have "stolen" the election, but he did get the support of MANY people. If someone is representative of a population it's their elected leaders, I would think.

I do think USA citizens believe they are better than most other countries. Like calling themselves Americans, monopolising the whole Continent ;) But the USA is a better country than most :p, so it probably comes down to humility, which is considered a good trait in most European countries, and I would say not so much in the USA.

And we do dislikes flags because they remind us of all our nacionalist problems of just a few decades ago.

DutchieGirl
May 13th, 2004, 02:57 AM
I dont believe that is true...that the law made someone take down an Australian flag. Im sure you have your facts all mixed up. In New Jersey we have a thriving Italian American population. Many put up Italian flags. It never ever causes a stir. I have never ever heard anyone ever criticize it. Perhaps if you put up a North Korean flag, it could cause a stir.......but an Australian flag.....give me a break!
a. No need to attack me because
b. I DID state when I wrote that that the info MAY BE WRONG and that my Dad had told me he heard it on the news! So I don't have any "facts" mixed up as I said I didn't know if it was true in the first place! :rolleyes:

*JR*
May 13th, 2004, 03:37 AM
Who voted to put Bush into power then?
5/9 of the US Supreme Court, despite a series of strange events in Florida that would rival some elections in undemocratic countries!

Colin B
May 13th, 2004, 11:45 AM
funny! :lol: not sure whether they do, but something tells me their brand of tea is not the same as yours. :D
What? No Earl Grey? :eek:

I don't think my 'pinkie' could stand it!



:lol:

Colin B
May 13th, 2004, 11:58 AM
Andy's post as absolutely right of course!! :worship:


Put in simplistic terms, the average human being, no matter their nationality, gender, class, wealth, race or religion, is basically a 'good' person - IMHO, the day this ceases to be the case, we're all fucked! ;)

'Bad' people exist everywhere but they are in the minority.

:)

Sam L
May 13th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Words from an American

“We have become a zealous, arrogant and deeply racist country. Not the traditional black-white racism of our respective youth but one that has elevated ‘American’ to a race that is above all others.”

The above quote appears in the following article
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4900136/, ostensibly from a 'professional ... at senior levels in the American government'. Professional meaning as distinct form a political appointee. It's an unnamed source, so it's suspect.

My question is, is that how non-Americans view the United States?

To, me this is important. I want to see the targeting of civilians as a form of warfare ended. The United States can't do that by itself. And the rest of the world can't do it without us. We won't wind up working together if that's what you believe we are. I understand that I'm only giving two choices in a world where 90% of it is a grey area in the middle. That's deliberate.

I would like to restrict this poll to non-Americans. In practice, I doubt that wil happen because I expect a lot of Americans to vote, and to vote that we're not racist. Howeverm I still ask that Americans refrain from voting. We nned to see how our brothers and sisters view us.

To those of you who are tired of 'liberal whining, etc, etc.' Tell me how we're going to win the War on Terror without help from the rest of the world.

You call it liberal.
I call it pragmatic.
I voted no. Not every American is the same. You have good points there. Some Americans who do not like "liberals" just because they're liberals, I can't stand. But I don't think they're zealous or racist towards other countries.

Andy_
May 13th, 2004, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=Paul123 If you are interested in learning more about Christian self proclaimed superiority and are interested on how to 'convert, repent, or be eternally damned' i can refer you to a few others on the board who can help you before its tooooo late. :fiery: Of course its only a tiny minority of people that think this way. But they are out there, and I feel they are a threat. [/QUOTE]
I think I have an idea... :tape:

Andy_
May 13th, 2004, 01:44 PM
:lol: andy...san franciscans are twisted like that! :angel:
Oh, you know Bri... I have a pic of myself with the GGBridge as the background in my bedroom, and I often surprise myself humming 'Sittin' on the dock of the bay'... and I have a number of reasons to be fond of San Francisco. I think I can do with a sign on the bridge. Besides... I don't normally carry missiles with me :lol: