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Volcana
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:57 PM
It's death top even discuss it. No, not homosexuality. FAT.

But I'm already dead, so killing me again won't hurt as much. So I can start this thread. Being fat hurts athletic performance. In MOST sports. It can be a competitive advantage. If your sport is the English Channel swim. But if the sport involved running, jumping or fast-twitch muscles, fat is dead weight. I'm not talking about three or four pounds. Having those extra two or three pounds might have won Jenn Capriati the 2003 OZ title. Hingis' body was consuming muscle to sustain itself halfway through the match. Jenn had a little reserve.

But some players are running around the court packing 25-30 extra pounds. To see the difference that can make, losing a lot of weight turned Lindsay Davenport into a three time GS winner, instead of just a hard-hitting top ten player. I'm thinking of players like Alexandra Stevenson, Magui Serna, Eleni Daniilidou, Monica Seles and Marie-Gayanay Mikaelian. (Well, I haven't seen Mikaelian in a while, so maybe it's no longer true in her case.) It's hard not to believe that fat cost Monica another two or three GS titles. It might not be true, but it's still hard not to believe. Stevenson, Serna and Daniilidou werer all top twenty players at one point. Serna and Daniilidou are still close, but their careers have stagnated. All three have a lot of talent, but being very overweight has held them back. (Stevenson has Kournikova's brain to boot. Lethal combination.)

Especially Daniilidou, who's won three tournament inthe last couple years, and beaten Henin-Hardenne, Mauresmo and Capriati. The talent is obvious there.

Kart
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:03 PM
Weight loss doesn't correlate with automatic success.

How much thinner was Lindsay Davenport after her return from injury in 2002? How much difference has it made?

I'm not trying to pick holes in your theory but there has to be more to it than just losing a few pounds.

tennisIlove09
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:04 PM
do you have your pm's turn on Volcana?

Snuffkin
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:35 PM
Having those extra two or three pounds might have won Jenn Capriati the 2003 OZ title.

Much as I wish this were right, it was 2002.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, some players suffer as a consequence of losing weight in that it affects the power behind their shots. I can't think of anyone right now, but it must be a factor.

I'll get me coat...

Barsonly2
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:49 PM
Weight does have something to do with what you do with the ball. Lets talk about ms hantuchova. Now its a fact that she has lost a lot of weight. This i believe has affected her play recently. She doesnt seem to have the same pop. It might also be combined with mental frailty right now in her career. In the contrary, ms henin-hardenne is slight and doesnt carry a lot of weight on her, but boy does she hit the ball hard. Perhaps the same can be said about Venus. She is thin, but still carry great pop on the ball.

ktwtennis
Apr 29th, 2004, 12:06 AM
I'm afraid you're right about Monica...

pav
Apr 29th, 2004, 12:39 AM
I remember comparing hingis and Cap's bodies during the later stages of that final and according to the no fat what so ever brigade Hingis should have outlasted Her, but that little bit of camel-hump on the Captain seemed to help Her thru..the commentators were blaming the different training climates. I also remember leaving the room when Hingis had match point ,and the serve for a bathroom -break- or a leak to give the correct term, thinking it was all over. also years ago a trainer had Navrat and Lendell(spelling)on a strict no -fat on the body policy they looked bad and played like crap if I remember right.
glad to see no mention of Vera Z's spare tyre!

Black Mamba.
Apr 29th, 2004, 12:45 AM
In most sports weight has a big deal to do with performance. Excess weight can not only reduce mobility, but it can increase the risk of injury.

Knizzle
Apr 29th, 2004, 01:10 AM
Weight loss doesn't correlate with automatic success.

How much thinner was Lindsay Davenport after her return from injury in 2002? How much difference has it made?

I'm not trying to pick holes in your theory but there has to be more to it than just losing a few pounds.
I'm not disagreeing, but I think in Davenport's case the fact that she was returning from injury had to do with her decrease in success.

*JR*
Apr 29th, 2004, 01:25 AM
Ironically, stick-figure Daja Bedanova (who I then called Bedanunda) did pretty well in '02. She filled out a little for '03, and looked much healthier. (Everywhere Except on the draw sheets). :o

Volcana
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:13 AM
Weight loss doesn't correlate with automatic success.True.

How much thinner was Lindsay Davenport after her return from injury in 2002? How much difference has it made?I would answer, bad example. First, there's no way to determine how much the injury affected her. Second, Serena got a LOT better while Lindsay was gone. NOBODY else got to win. Third, when Lindsay first came up on the tour, she weighed over two hundred pounds. She's no lightweight now, but she's almost 50 pounds lighter. I really am talking about being VERY overweight for a professional athlete. The difference in Lindsay's weight pre- and post- surgery wasn't THAT large.

do you have your pm's turn on Volcana?There was a problem I won't get into a couple of year's ago that rendered that a bad idea.

Much as I wish this were right, it was 2002.Correction made. Thanx.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, some players suffer as a consequence of losing weight in that it affects the power behind their shots. I can't think of anyone right now, but it must be a factor.Venus at OZ '02.

tennisIlove09
Apr 29th, 2004, 05:37 AM
There was a problem I won't get into a couple of year's ago that rendered that a bad idea.
please send me an email at wtaworld@hotmail.com

Volcana
Apr 29th, 2004, 11:33 AM
please send me an email at wtaworld@hotmail.com
Please understand, it isn't personal, but there are some truly psychpathic individuals raoming these boards. Establishing personal communications with one led me into territory that was certainly harassing, and could have become truly dangerous to my life.

I'm sorry, but, no.

Pureracket
Apr 29th, 2004, 11:56 AM
The players that we say lost power behind their shots (Venus Oz '02) actually loss muscle. Losing muscle and losing fat are two different things. Sure, losing fat oftentimes involve losing muscle tone, but it doesn't take away power.

tennisIlove09
Apr 29th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Please understand, it isn't personal, but there are some truly psychpathic individuals raoming these boards. Establishing personal communications with one led me into territory that was certainly harassing, and could have become truly dangerous to my life.

I'm sorry, but, no.
:wavey: It's cool. I was just going to invite you to the message board on my Venus site. It's my invite only, and you need a password to enter :tape:

Volcana
Apr 29th, 2004, 08:00 PM
:wavey: It's cool. I was just going to invite you to the message board on my Venus site. It's my invite only, and you need a password to enter :tape:
Hmmm .. interesting. Let me see if I can think of a way to get a password that is otherwise secure. I do appreciate the offer.

fammmmedspin
Apr 29th, 2004, 08:24 PM
Wouldn't it be difficult to be a fat trained athlete? If they were overweight it could just be that they were not training enough which begs the question why? Alternatively it could be metabolic, hormonal or psychological in which case there is not much point non-involved non-professionals commenting on it. You would also need a definition of fat that made more sense than BMI indexes with stick insects for their norms and didn't produce a fit but totally unhealthy person.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 29th, 2004, 08:44 PM
25-30?

Serna maybe...Pierce blew up once or twice too...Monica has had her spells...Lucic...

Steffi had a playing weight that is about 10lbs more than she preferred...She weighs less now than her playing days, and that's after two kids.

Jakeev
Apr 29th, 2004, 09:02 PM
I don't think Eleni looks that heavy at all. If anything, she has lost a lot of weight. Her problem is that once she lost the weight, she needed to tone up and put some muscle on her.

I think once she gets a bit more fit she will have much more stamina on court.

Seenus
Apr 30th, 2004, 12:57 AM
fat doesn't rhyme with fit
fat rhymes with what that

DeDe4925
Apr 30th, 2004, 04:25 AM
Much as I wish this were right, it was 2002.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, some players suffer as a consequence of losing weight in that it affects the power behind their shots. I can't think of anyone right now, but it must be a factor.

I'll get me coat...
Daniela Hantuchova comes to mind.

Brian Stewart
Apr 30th, 2004, 06:20 AM
The tricky part is to distinguish "fat" from "soft". Having followed many women's sports over the years, I have noticed one major difference between male and female athletes: there is a much less direct correlation between appearance and fitness among women athletes. A male athlete is almost invariably as fit as he appears (with very rare exceptions). With women, you have to see them perform on a repeated basis, and can only compare them to themselves. While everyone that appears fit usually is, I have seen quite a few women athletes that appeared unfit, but were in tremendous condition. (I know this from seeing them perform, and witnessing workouts that even "fit" athletes had difficulty with.)

I recall watching a road race, and seeing one of the entrants stand out. She had a HUGE butt and thighs; almost as if you had taken the worst of Lindsay and Monica and combined them. Yet she ran the 20-mile race in 2 hours flat. Faster than most of the competitors in the race, male or female, whom most would have assumed were "fitter".

Remember Judith Wiesner? A very talented Austrian with a beautiful one-handed backhand, and a game full of variety. She was always a bit, shall we say, stocky. Not fat, but looking like the standard "could stand to lose a couple of pounds". One summer, she did drop some weight. She looked great. Stunning even. But her game went to crap. While any layman, shown pictures of the 2 Wiesners, would reflexively have proclaimed the thinner Judith as "fitter", the results said otherwise. She had less strength and less stamina. When she rebuilt her strength and fitness, the weight came back.

I've read of a few other players, often derided as unfit, who were notorious gym rats. I've even encountered a few "chubbuloids" who would run thinner athletes into the ground. Could some of them get trimmer by working even harder? Perhaps. But it might require so much time spent on physical training that (a) they have little time left over to practice game skills, thus making them worse players, or (b) they run the risk of overtraining, which causes problems of its own. Many of the nagging injuries suffered by Graf and Kournikova were the result of overtraining. Many of the injuries players are suffering now have a similar root. In most cases, that wouldn't be worth it, just for the sake of making one's outer appearance align more closely with one's actual fitness level, with little, if any, actual gain in performance.

esquímaux
Apr 30th, 2004, 07:20 AM
... I have seen quite a few women athletes that appeared unfit, but were in tremendous condition...

Moonball Momma? :scratch: :hearts:

Mr_Molik
Apr 30th, 2004, 08:15 AM
Remember Judith Wiesner? A very talented Austrian with a beautiful one-handed backhand, and a game full of variety. She was always a bit, shall we say, stocky. Not fat, but looking like the standard "could stand to lose a couple of pounds". One summer, she did drop some weight. She looked great. Stunning even. But her game went to crap. While any layman, shown pictures of the 2 Wiesners, would reflexively have proclaimed the thinner Judith as "fitter", the results said otherwise. She had less strength and less stamina. When she rebuilt her strength and fitness, the weight came back.



is there a link between that part of the world and obesity? (u have wiesner, casanova, mikaelian)

Volcana
Apr 30th, 2004, 11:40 AM
Many of the injuries players are suffering now have a similar root.I would agree. And yet their performance DOES improve. This is probably the leanest top ten we've ever had. And the most injury prone. WHen they're on the court, they perform a6 a high level, but they're like thoroughbred race horse, or formula one race cars. Delicate and easily damaged, for all their speed and power.

I think some of this is also brought about by, 'suicidal sexism' is probably more than a bit overdramatic as a term. What I mean is, self-destructive behaviour brought about by internalized attitudes about how women should look.

Women get caught up in weight NUMBERS. If a guy can pack on five more pounds of lean muscle, he'll usually do it. Women will get caught up in not wieght more than 130 lbs, 140 lbs 150 lbs. No one believes the listed weights of WTA players because they're absurd. Absurdly LOW, for the most part. In some cases, women will go ahead and lose lean muscle, just to make some artificial weight. And of course, so women is totally averse to even showing they HAVE muscle. So they ask their bodies to play a VERY difficult sport with relatively little muscle tissue. More muscle (in the right places) could take a lot of the strain off their joints. But you have to be willing to HAVE muscle.

Rothes
Apr 30th, 2004, 11:47 AM
Myriam Casanova :hearts:

patricktav2003
Apr 30th, 2004, 03:01 PM
Some different are to make between the mental, the fitness, the overwight, the injuries, the self-confidence
these are all things that we have to whatch in that case
but I understand the point that some players have to lose weight, and they will be more effectif but losing weight = practice more too!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember the case of Capriati being more fit but better inher head too!! but to be more fit help her and thats for shure, same case with Dementieva! but still a weakness for her serve
but im shure that with a Mikealian more fitter that will help her but right now she have to deal with come back from a injury so,
the case of Casanova is interesting ,, she really overweight ,, and I imagine if she was fitter and thats a top 30th for shure too

Is a matter of training hard!!