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GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 08:20 PM
Once again I have to read that in one of the threads here. :rolleyes:

It's simply not true. During Martina's career (which I consider to be over after AO 2002), there was exactly ONE match against either Venus and Serena where she "could not compete with them": the US Open semifinal 2001 against Serena, and Martina was already on her way down then. All her other losses against them were hard-fought matches in which she could indeed compete.

IMO there are two other players who are much more "responsible" for Martina's decline: Steffi Graf and Jennifer Capriati.
At FO 1999 it all began. After that Martina has never been as tough mentally as before. She proved that in the US Open final, where Serena had a major choke and Martina couldn't take advantage of it.
Her two GS losses against Venus in 2000 were definitely painful, but it would be ridiculous to say that she couldn't compete. Martina was inferior mentally, but that wasn't just against Venus, that was also against Mary Pierce (FO 2000) and others, and the main reason for that is the Graf-match.
Then, at AO 2001, she beats both Venus and Serena. She trounces Venus, something which Venus never did to her (and they should only have ONE more match, at Miami, which Venus won in two close sets), and she comes back against Serena from 2 breaks down in the 3rd set (again they should only have ONE more match, the already mentioned US Open semifinal).
Then, to everyone's surprise, she loses against Jennifer. And THAT was the beginning of the end.
After that Martina's downfall becomes more and more obvious. She loses against Clijsters, against Sanchez-Vicario, against Ruano-Pascual, she loses twice against Mauresmo, Capriati and Seles. The thrashing against Serena is just another loss for someone who can't compete any more against ANY of the top-players.
Martina gave it one more try in 2002. And she got a golden opportunity to win another slam (without facing a Williams), and she choked it away which was basically the end of her career.

Yes, Martina HAD painful losses against Venus and Serena, but
a) she could compete in these matches
b) they weren't turning points in her career. The results just don't indicate that.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 08:23 PM
I don't think V& S forced Martina in retirement, but I also don't believe her feet/ankles forced her out either.

Kart
Apr 28th, 2004, 08:26 PM
If anyone forced Martina into retirement it would be Capriati.

Not that I particularly believe that either.

flyingmachine
Apr 28th, 2004, 08:54 PM
Nooooooooooooo OFF Course Not!

sioul
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:06 PM
It really depends on how you look at the situation. YEs, as bigger powerful players came along and started hitting the heck out of the ball, martina did have to change her natural style of play and force more agression in her shots. This, compared to her old style of play was a big change and i believe that there must have been some severe effects on her physical well being afterwords. If she was still healthy, and could run about on court counterpunching and fighting, she would still be out there. but her feet wont let her do what she know she NEEDS to do, that is why she left the game. And for martina, if she cant do what she knows she HAS to do in order to compete at the level she is used to, then ofcourse the most logical thing to do is stop playing.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:10 PM
""Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."-martina in a nutshell-"

So translation...retire early?

Pureracket
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:12 PM
VENUS WILLIAMS1997 Key Biscayne Hard (O) 32 Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-2 1997 San Diego Hard (O) 16 Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-1 1997 US Open Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-0 6-4 1998 Sydney Hard (O) 16 Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 4-6 5-7 1998 Indian Wells Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-0 7-6 1998 Key Biscayne Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-5 2-6 1998 Rome Clay (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-3 2-6 6-3 1998 French Open Clay (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-3 6-4 1999 Rome Clay (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 4-6 6-1 4-6 1999 San Diego Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-0 1999 US Open Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-1 4-6 6-3 1999 Grand Slam Cup Hard (I) SF Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-6(6) 7-9 1999 Zurich Hard (I) FR Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 4-6 1999 W.T.A. Tour Championships Carpet (I) SF Martina HINGIS 6-4 7-6 2000 Wimbledon Grass (O) QF Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-4 4-6 2000 U.S. Open Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 3-6 5-7 2001 Australian Open Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-1 6-1 2001 Miami Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7(6) 2002 Hamburg Clay (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 5-7 3-6 Martina HINGIS (SUI) leads 10 : 9


Martina HINGIS (SUI) v Serena WILLIAMS (USA)1998 Key Biscayne Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-3 1-6 7-6 1998 Manhattan Beach Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-1 1999 Key Biscayne Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 6-7 1999 Rome Clay (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-2 1999 Manhattan Beach Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 5-7 1999 US Open Hard (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7 2000 Los Angeles Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 2-6 3-6 2000 Canadian Open Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 0-6 6-3 3-0 Retired 2001 Sydney Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-4 7-5 2001 Australian Open Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-2 3-6 8-6 2001 U.S. Open Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 2-6 2002 Scottsdale Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 6-3 4-6 2002 Miami Hard (O) QF Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 0-6 Serena WILLIAMS (USA) leads 7 : 6

Well, taking a look @ the last three matches for Hingis against both the Williams Sisters, and we might see something that lets us know that she was not as competitive @ all. Once a player knows she can no longer compete with the elite, then she figures there is time for retirement.

Venus' breakthrough against Hingis and @ Wimbledon(=)(she had never gotten through to the semifinals) came in 2000 where she upset Hingis in the quarters(she finished it with a streaking ace out wide to the Hingis backhand on the ad court). Until then, Hingis had a rather mental grip on Venus that was unbreakable. It was hard to forgive Venus after that '01 semifinal in AO, but she came there very out of shape (she admitted it in an interview with Pam and Mary after she defeated Hingis in the sf @ Miami). From then on, I'm sure that Hingis knew that she would no longer be a real threat to Venus and would probably have to play for 2nd whenever VEE was in a tourney.

It was already different with Serena. You know, I know, Martina knew, and Serena knows that her game was always going to be one to give Martina problems. In fact, though Serena lost their first match played, Serena held a match point, and missed an easy backhand long to finish it. Hingis' effort in Aussie in the qf(01) was valiant, but I'm almost sure that that tourney was supposed to be SErena's in the Williams camp (and why I'm absolutely sure that Venus didn't bother training for it). I'm surprised that even one of their last three meetings went to a third set. By then, we all knew that Serena had her number, and even returning from a long layoff from injury and illness in Scottsdale, Serena was still too much for her.

The Williams Sisters may not have driven her to retirement, but they share most of the blame.

sioul
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:14 PM
""Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."-martina in a nutshell-"

So translation...retire early?
are you retarded?

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Once again I have to read that in one of the threads here. :rolleyes:

It's simply not true. During Martina's career (which I consider to be over after AO 2002), there was exactly ONE match against either Venus and Serena where she "could not compete with them":
That's all it takes. :wavey:

Ballbuster
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:20 PM
YES they did.

Martina seen the Charge they put on her. Hell, after I have been kicking your butts for points, then all of a sudden you come back and bring your Cox-Strong little sister and then the both of you take turns dismissing me, and I'm a Known Diva!

I'd quit too.

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:26 PM
I understand what you are trying to say. However; Compare the early matches between The Williams Sisters and Martina Hingis to the later matches, you will find that the only differance between the two periods is that The Williams Sisters got better, while Hingis stayed at the same level. Hingis stayed at the same level because that was enough to ensure her a win against Serena and Venus!! Hingis is hailed as this Mental genious on the tennis court, but she and her fans failed to realize what everyone else knew all along, that eventually the Williams Sisters game would mature, and they would cut down on the errors, and as a result Hingis's tactic of just pushing ball back over the net until her apponent makes an error would no longer be enough to ensure a win. I don't buy the argument that had Hingis added more power to her game that she would've still been able to beat the Williams'. I think that Hingis won because of her ability to keep balls in play, adding power would have added more errors to her game, and ultimately it would've led to her loosing a lot more!! I have not doubt that had Hingis stayed in the game, she may still have been able to compete with the Williams Sisters. I don't think that she would have won much though, and not only against the Williams' but a lot of other players on the tour. Personally I think that Hingis could accept loosing to anyone else except the Williams Sisters, and this is why she bolted from the tour(see animation) :bolt:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:31 PM
I understand what you are trying to say. However; Compare the early matches between The Williams Sisters and Martina Hingis to the later matches, you will find that the only differance between the two periods is that The Williams Sisters got better, while Hingis stayed at the same level. Hingis stayed at the same level because that was enough to ensure her a win against Serena and Venus!! Hingis is hailed as this Mental genious on the tennis court, but she and her fans failed to realize what everyone else knew all along, that eventually the Williams Sisters game would mature, and they would cut down on the errors, and as a result Hingis's tactic of just pushing ball back over the net until her apponent makes an error would no longer be enough to ensure a win. I don't buy the argument that had Hingis added more power to her game that she would've still been able to beat the Williams'. I think that Hingis won because of her ability to keep balls in play, adding power would have added more errors to her game, and ultimately it would've led to her loosing a lot more!! I have not doubt that had Hingis stayed in the game, she may still have been able to compete with the Williams Sisters. I don't think that she would have won much though, and not only against the Williams' but a lot of other players on the tour. Personally I think that Hingis could accept loosing to anyone else except the Williams Sisters, and this is why she bolted from the tour(see animation) :bolt:

I don't know about that...but I don't think she needed to add much more sting to her strokes, but a better serve def. would have been necessary. What Martina lacked in her latter years was the spunk to take it to her opponenets, but like Venus' says in her Wilson's leather commercial..."Confidence is a fragile thing!"

Knizzle
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:38 PM
If you talk to Hingis, she would tell you that the sisters were the toughest players she had to play against.

Martian Willow
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:40 PM
"For me, to struggle with injuries, have three operations, come back when you are not sure what's going to happen and be in pain all the time . . . I don't want to live like that. Having to live on painkillers and worrying about your health, that's not the lifestyle I want because once you struggle with your body then it stops being fun. I never knew that when I was 16, 17. I was just playing easy out there and winning things. But all of a sudden my body was in my way.

"My foot gets inflamed all the time, when I play for like four or five hours, so I could never get back into professional sport like that. It's good enough for the daily business but it would never stand playing week in, week out and I would never want to be just another one of the 128 players in the draw. It's not really my style. I'd rather get better at something else."

...I'm fairly sure this is why she retired...Martina is not a liar...thanks... :)

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:44 PM
Of course she would say that!! Because it was about a lot more than just the tennis! It was the sisters taking over her turf, her sport, her status, etc. and for a while she defended it well, but when she couldn't fight the good fight anymore she did the right thing in conceeding and leaving the tour. ANKLE INJURY MY FOOT :tape:See! Hingis was very smart indeed, she realized that it was all over for her and she left!!

Martian Willow
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:45 PM
...Martina is not a liar...thanks... :)

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:45 PM
But Willow, even without injury I couldn't imagine Martina still being on the courts these days. :)

Ballbuster
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:45 PM
"For me, to struggle with injuries, have three operations, come back when you are not sure what's going to happen and be in pain all the time . . . I don't want to live like that. Having to live on painkillers and worrying about your health, that's not the lifestyle I want because once you struggle with your body then it stops being fun. I never knew that when I was 16, 17. I was just playing easy out there and winning things. But all of a sudden my body was in my way.

"My foot gets inflamed all the time, when I play for like four or five hours, so I could never get back into professional sport like that. It's good enough for the daily business but it would never stand playing week in, week out and I would never want to be just another one of the 128 players in the draw. It's not really my style. I'd rather get better at something else."

...I'm fairly sure this is why she retired...Martina is not a liar...thanks... :)


Please, don't you believe that. She had to tell her fans something. She definately was not going to tell them the obvious.

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:47 PM
"For me, to struggle with injuries, have three operations, come back when you are not sure what's going to happen and be in pain all the time . . . I don't want to live like that. Having to live on painkillers and worrying about your health, that's not the lifestyle I want because once you struggle with your body then it stops being fun. I never knew that when I was 16, 17. I was just playing easy out there and winning things. But all of a sudden my body was in my way.

"My foot gets inflamed all the time, when I play for like four or five hours, so I could never get back into professional sport like that. It's good enough for the daily business but it would never stand playing week in, week out and I would never want to be just another one of the 128 players in the draw. It's not really my style. I'd rather get better at something else."

...I'm fairly sure this is why she retired...Martina is not a liar...thanks... :)




YEAH RIGHT!! like Hingis is ever gonna come out and say "I can't compete with The Williams Sister anymore, so i'm leaving the game" I think she'd fake a foot injury before she'd say anything like this!!

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:49 PM
She said they wouldn't be number one while she was still in the game.

Martian Willow
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:49 PM
...Martina is not a liar...thanks... :)

:nerner:

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:52 PM
Indeed, Martina is not a liar. She is a quitter!!

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:52 PM
This thread is not about Martina's injury. Thanks. :)

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:54 PM
This thread is not about Martina's injury. Thanks. :)
What's it about then? I thought that was the excuse she used to retire. Isn't this thread about the issue of whether or not the Williams' forced Martina into retirement?

Martian Willow
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:56 PM
Indeed, Martina is not a liar. She is a quitter!!

...sorry if you can't see the contradiction between these two statements...I suppose that's because you and Bumbuster are used to supporting a player who regularly uses lies and falsehoods as excuses...I, however, am not... :)

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 09:58 PM
Lindsay said something to the effect that "Martina needs to quite whining and get her ass back on the court" guess she didn't realize the extent of the injuries either, much like Martina's own doctor.

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:00 PM
...sorry if you can't see the contradiction between these two statements...I suppose that's because you and Bumbuster are used to supporting a player who regularly uses lies and falsehoods as excuses...I, however, am not... :)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Willow, Willow, Willow, don't get your panties in a bunch. The truth hurts, don't it? :tape: :lol: :lol:

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:01 PM
What's it about then? I thought that was the excuse she used to retire. Isn't this thread about the issue of whether or not the Williams' forced Martina into retirement?
Yes, but if you read my first post you would know that I'm not talking about the injury, as the injury wasn't the only factor that led to her retirement.
I'm asking whether the Williams sisters were the main reason besides the injury that led to Martina's retirement. And my answer is no. :)

Martian Willow
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:03 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Willow, Willow, Willow, don't get your panties in a bunch. The truth hurts, don't it? :tape: :lol: :lol:

...I wouldn't know...does it...? :)

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:03 PM
...sorry if you can't see the contradiction between these two statements...I suppose that's because you and Bumbuster are used to supporting a player who regularly uses lies and falsehoods as excuses...I, however, am not... :)

HEY!! I'm not the one supporting a quitter!! YOU ARE!! SO :nerner:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Yes, but if you read my first post you would know that I'm not talking about the injury, as the injury wasn't the only factor that led to her retirement.
I'm asking whether the Williams sisters were the main reason besides the injury that led to Martina's retirement. And my answer is no. :)
Well, I think you know my answer. She was getting beaten consistently by the Sisters, and in the end, everyone else on the tour. She said herself, they'd (the Williams' sisters) would never be No. 1 while she was still playing and she made sure of that.

Martian Willow
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:07 PM
HEY!! I'm not the one supporting a quitter!! YOU ARE!! SO :nerner:

...yes...Venus and Serena are so much more dedicated to their sport...I can really see them hanging around if they get injured...no need for pointless speculation about whether they would have retired or not in their case... :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:07 PM
...I wouldn't know...does it...? :)
I don't know what hurts you? I would think you'd be the best judge of that. :wavey:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:08 PM
HEY!! I'm not the one supporting a quitter!! YOU ARE!! SO :nerner:
:haha: :haha: :haha:

Volcana
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Of course Venus and Serena forced her into retirement! She named her left foot 'Serena' and her right foot 'Venus'.

Martian Willow
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:09 PM
I don't know what hurts you? I would think you'd be the best judge of that. :wavey:

...nasty people on internet forums who say rude things about my faves... :bigcry:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:09 PM
...yes...Venus and Serena are so much more dedicated to their sport...I can really see them hanging around if they get injured...no need for pointless speculation about whether they would have retired or not in their case... :rolleyes:
LOL, but we know it won't be for lack of trying to play or for anyone consistently beating their asses. :lol: :lol:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Of course Venus and Serena forced her into retirement! She named her left foot 'Serena' and her right foot 'Venus'.
:haha: :haha: :haha:

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Well, I think you know my answer. She was getting beaten consistently by the Sisters, and in the end, everyone else on the tour. She said herself, they'd (the Williams' sisters) would never be No. 1 while she was still playing and she made sure of that.
Again, if you read my post you would know that this is not true.

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:11 PM
...nasty people on internet forums who say rude things about my faves... :bigcry:
See, I knew it. :lol:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:12 PM
Of course they did.

They invented fashion, they are the 2 greatest tennis players of all time (single and double) and life do revolve only around them.
Well the WTA logo is Venus hitting a backahnd... :cool:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:12 PM
Of course they did.

They invented fashion, they are the 2 greatest tennis players of all time (single and double) and life do revolve only around them.
You ain't never lied. :hehehe:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Again, if you read my post you would know that this is not true.
In your opinion, it's not true. In my opinion it is true. You have a different interpretation of events...and I did read your post and it has no bearing on my opinion whatsoever.

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:16 PM
In your opinion, it's not true. In my opinion it is true. You have a different interpretation of events...and I did read your post and it has no bearing on my opinion whatsoever.
The truth has nothing to do with opinion. :)

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:19 PM
The truth has nothing to do with opinion. :)
Of course it does. Truth is very subjective. Truth is how the facts in any given situation are interpreted and no two people are ever going to have the same interpretation of the same set of facts.

ico4498
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:23 PM
it just wasn't ever gonna be as easy for Tina. her doctor declared her tour ready, but she'd have to work harder than she ever had, with pain, and achieve less.

don't know if Venus and Serena "forced" her retirement, but when Tina saw the writing on the wall she recognized the sisters scrawl.

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:23 PM
Of course it does. Truth is very subjective. Truth is how the facts in any given situation are interpreted and no two peopel are ever going to have the same interpretation of a set of facts.
Head-to-heads are facts. According to them, Martina wasn't beaten consistently by the Williams sisters.
At least by my definition of "consistently".

ico4498
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:28 PM
if i had to choose one reason for Hingis' retirement i'd say her ego.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:29 PM
:wavey: it just wasn't ever gonna be as easy for Tina. her doctor declared her tour ready, but she'd have to work harder than she ever had, with pain, and achieve less.

don't know if Venus and Serena "forced" her retirement, but when Tina saw the writing on the wall she recognized the sisters scrawl.
:wavey: :worship: :bounce: :lol:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:55 PM
Head-to-heads are facts. According to them, Martina wasn't beaten consistently by the Williams sisters.
At least by my definition of "consistently".
Well, does your definition of consistently range from year 2000 until her retirement? Because mine does.

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:56 PM
That's all it takes. :wavey:
so if serena would retire tomorrow, petrova or henin would have pushed her out of the game?
if venus retired soon, lisa raymond would have pushed her out of the game?

barmaid
Apr 28th, 2004, 10:56 PM
...I wouldn't know...does it...? :)


Good response Willow!:D The main reason Martina retired from tennis...was that she could NOT compete at the top level ...remember she was losing to Nadia Petrova (ranked #179) and other lower ranked players.in the fall of 2002...the last surgery she had in May of 2002 left her with minimal mobiity...and in today's game you need to have maximum mobility...that was one of her skills that she couldn't get back...the serve of course was another..and quite possibly her sore feet had something to do with that...you need to get strength from when you push off with your feet....and she was unable to do that:sad: Yes, her ego did play a part in her decision to quit...she's too proud of her #1 ranking to humilate herself by losing to lower ranked players....and the quotes from Martina's own lips that Willow posted....is the truth and nothing but the truth!! :angel:


barmaid:wavey:

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:01 PM
so if serena would retire tomorrow, petrova or henin would have pushed her out of the game?
if venus retired soon, lisa raymond would have pushed her out of the game?
:lol: :lol: Henin??!! no, since the last time they played at Wimby, Serena spanked her ass like a step child. So, no I wouldn't include Henin in that group. It would be stupid to apply it to the Serena's or Venus' situation because the circumstances are totally different.

Why would I think lisa pushed Venus out of the game, did you see the FCC or Fed Cup?

Neither Venus or Serena is analygous to Hingis in any shape or form. Go back and try and think of something else.

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:02 PM
In your opinion, it's not true. In my opinion it is true. You have a different interpretation of events...and I did read your post and it has no bearing on my opinion whatsoever.
because you ignore reason and keep listening to the soothing voices in your head...

DeDe4925
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:04 PM
because you ignore reason and keep listening to the soothing voices in your head...
Why are you personally attacking me? I haven't said anything personally negative about you. Why don't you learn how to debate without getting your little feelings hurt and grow up. :p

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:06 PM
from what i saw, serena had a losing record to justine last year, and justine has won 3 of the last 4 slams...
u dont think that had anything to do with serena staying out of the game as long as she did?

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Why are you personally attacking me? I haven't said anything personally negative about you. Why don't you learn how to debate without getting your little feelings hurt and grow up. :p
my feelings aren't hurt, that wasn't an attack... and if i went by what you call debate, i would quote whatever dumbass remark you made and respond with :lol: :haha:
what great debate skills you have...

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 01:52 AM
my feelings aren't hurt, that wasn't an attack... and if i went by what you call debate, i would quote whatever dumbass remark you made and respond with :lol: :haha:
what great debate skills you have...
At least it's better than responding with insults. But, I guess the difference between us is that I was raised right.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:02 AM
from what i saw, serena had a losing record to justine last year, and justine has won 3 of the last 4 slams...
u dont think that had anything to do with serena staying out of the game as long as she did?

Oh yeah, a losing record 2-1. Yeah, and Justine won 3 of the last 4 slams. One of which Serena won and two of which Serena didn't even play in. No, I don't think Justine had anything to do with Serena staying out as long as she did. She stayed out because she was recovering from knee surgery. Only you would come up with something that stupid.

ys
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:19 AM
I believe that could be in a way true. They might have contributed to her early retirement. She realised that she loses competitiveness against them, she tried to get stronger, build some muscles, she was definitely trying to do that lately. It might have contributed to her foot condition.

Knizzle
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:34 AM
Maybe not directly due to the sisters, but she fell victim to the power game that they brought full circle.

hingis-seles
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:36 AM
YES they did.

Martina seen the Charge they put on her. Hell, after I have been kicking your butts for points, then all of a sudden you come back and bring your Cox-Strong little sister and then the both of you take turns dismissing me, and I'm a Known Diva!

I'd quit too.
Just like Henin scared Venus and Serena away last year. Abdominal strain? Knee Injury? LMAO!

Serena's a self-admitted hypochondriac who can't handle losing and when Henin started beating up on her, it was too much for that ego. Venus, who had accustomed herself to losing GS finals, found that she wasn't even getting that far anymore, hence, the "abdominal strain".

Infact, didn't Serena not even play the Australian Open this year because she said she wasn't sure she would win?

Note: Remove Venus and Serena's names and add Martina's and that's exactly how most of the Williams Sisters fans bashing Hingis sound. And by your logic, you also agree with the statement above. And before any of you dumasses jump all over me, remember that sarcasm is a beautiful thing.

ico4498
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:42 AM
Just like Henin scared Venus and Serena away last year. Abdominal strain? Knee Injury? LMAO!

Serena's a self-admitted hypochondriac who can't handle losing and when Henin started beating up on her, it was too much for that ego. Venus, who had accustomed herself to losing GS finals, found that she wasn't even getting that far anymore, hence, the "abdominal strain".

Infact, didn't Serena not even play the Australian Open this year because she said she wasn't sure she would win?

Note: Remove Venus and Serena's names and add Martina's and that's exactly how most of the Williams Sisters fans bashing Hingis sound. And by your logic, you also agree with the statement above. And before any of you dumasses jump all over me, remember that sarcasm is a beautiful thing.
you've a future in fiction ...

hingis-seles
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:44 AM
you've a future in fiction ...
At least I have a future. Can't say the same about you.

Knizzle
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:47 AM
Just like Henin scared Venus and Serena away last year. Abdominal strain? Knee Injury? LMAO!

Serena's a self-admitted hypochondriac who can't handle losing and when Henin started beating up on her, it was too much for that ego. Venus, who had accustomed herself to losing GS finals, found that she wasn't even getting that far anymore, hence, the "abdominal strain".

Infact, didn't Serena not even play the Australian Open this year because she said she wasn't sure she would win?

Note: Remove Venus and Serena's names and add Martina's and that's exactly how most of the Williams Sisters fans bashing Hingis sound. And by your logic, you also agree with the statement above. And before any of you dumasses jump all over me, remember that sarcasm is a beautiful thing.
There is one FATAL flaw in your reasoning. The sisters returned to tennis and now each have won a tier 1. Hingis is still sitting on the sidelines.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:02 AM
you've a future in fiction ...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:03 AM
There is one FATAL flaw in your reasoning. The sisters returned to tennis and now each have won a tier 1. Hingis is still sitting on the sidelines.
:eek: Doh!! :p :lol:

faboozadoo15
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:13 AM
Only you would come up with something that stupid.
:eek: is that an insult i see :eek:
and now i can no longer believe that you were "raised right"...

faboozadoo15
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:16 AM
There is one FATAL flaw in your reasoning. The sisters returned to tennis and now each have won a tier 1. Hingis is still sitting on the sidelines.
she's not sitting on the sidelines, she's a retired tennis player and one of the greats... when she came back (anything after filderstadt WAS her comeback) she got to the final of the australian, won tokyo.... need i say more???

Ballbuster
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:20 AM
:eek: is that an insult i see :eek:
and now i can no longer believe that you were "raised right"...

I'm glad I'm not the only one to realize that this posters is "not too bright"

Knizzle
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:21 AM
she's not sitting on the sidelines, she's a retired tennis player and one of the greats... when she came back (anything after filderstadt WAS her comeback) she got to the final of the australian, won tokyo.... need i say more???
Nah, Hingis -Seles was talking about her retirement. She hasn't comeback since then.

sioul
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:21 AM
i dont understand why some people cant understand that regardless of who caused her injuiries *yes i agree the williams sisters were a big force in causing hingis to go through alot of physical changes* the main reason why she retired was because of her injuries. if she could get better, she would relish the challenge of the sisters. she got beaten 5 times in a row by lindsay for a while but she said her self, she still wanted to play her, so she could find a way to win.

Did steffi retire because of hingis?
Did arantxa retire because of seles?

Did the william sisters start to play less because of justine and kim?

no.

so let it go.

Knizzle
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:28 AM
Why would Steffi retire because of Hingis. She OWNED Martina.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:35 AM
:eek: is that an insult i see :eek:
and now i can no longer believe that you were "raised right"...
You're tired. Go to bed. :wavey:

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:36 AM
she's not sitting on the sidelines, she's a retired tennis player and one of the greats... when she came back (anything after filderstadt WAS her comeback) she got to the final of the australian, won tokyo.... need i say more???
Not sitting on the sidelines, but she's retired. That makes sense. :rolleyes:

faboozadoo15
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:36 AM
You're tired. Go to bed. :wavey:
no, im okay thanks. if you can't take a little bantering when you dish so much out with all your mindless double standards then perhaps you should have a nap yourself.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:37 AM
Why would Steffi retire because of Hingis. She OWNED Martina.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

faboozadoo15
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:39 AM
Not sitting on the sidelines, but she's retired. That makes sense. :rolleyes:
she had her comeback to tennis and then retired. i wouldn't say martina is on the sidelines, meaning she's trying to but unable to come back... but if you interpreted it as "not playing" then you'd be correct as well. but then "on the sidelines" would mean anyone who isn't playing and i don't think that's the meaning that was intended

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:40 AM
no, im okay thanks. if you can't take a little bantering when you dish so much out with all your mindless double standards then perhaps you should have a nap yourself.

Sorry, your shit is so lame, I thought you were tired.

Mindless double standards, huh?? :lol: You're just mindless.

faboozadoo15
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:41 AM
Sorry, your shit is so lame, I thought you were tired.

Mindless double standards, huh?? :lol: You're just mindless.
what mindblowing comebacks... fuck the nap-- GO TO SCHOOL.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:43 AM
she had her comeback to tennis and then retired. i wouldn't say martina is on the sidelines, meaning she's trying to but unable to come back... but if you interpreted it as "not playing" then you'd be correct as well. but then "on the sidelines" would mean anyone who isn't playing and i don't think that's the meaning that was intended
Does it matter?? Is she playing? Did she retire after her comeback from injury? Then she's on the sidelines because she quit. She quit, because she is unable to deal with what it takes to compete. Even if she tried, she still couldn't and she knows it, so she did the right thing and retired.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:44 AM
what mindblowing comebacks... fuck the nap-- GO TO SCHOOL.
More lameness. :rolleyes:

rjd1111
Apr 29th, 2004, 05:06 AM
Yes, Martina HAD painful losses against Venus and Serena, but
a) she could compete in these matches
b) they weren't turning points in her career. The results just don't indicate that.[/QUOTE]

I think Serena's win was more than just another loss for M.H. It was a turning point. Read this part of an article.

NEW YORK -- Martina Hingis, dashing desperately along the baseline, had worked herself into a position of modest opportunity. Down a single service break at 3-5 in the first set, Hingis needed to solve Serena Williams' savage serve to get back in the semifinal match.

Williams' definitive answer: Ace, unreturnable serve, ace, ace.

It was, for the record, the worst loss Hingis has experienced in 43 matches at the U.S. Open. It was, as the numbers suggest, a nearly perfect match for Williams.

In the bottom-line department of winners, Williams had a stunning margin of 40-5. Williams, if it's possible, was even more dominant in the area of the serve: she had 10 aces, compared to 0 for Hingis. In the second set, all 17 of her first serves were in, including a 117 mph ace. Williams' ability to knock around Hingis' tepid first (80 to 90 mph) and second serves (60s to 70s) was the difference in the match.

"I couldn't read her serve," Hingis said. "I didn't know whether she was going forehand or backhand. Yeah, she was hitting the lines and the corners. It was difficult to even reach it. Even [when] I got there, there's not much I could do with it."

Nan Cu
Apr 29th, 2004, 05:34 AM
Yes they did. Venus, Serena, and Lindsay.

Martina realized, and stated that she couldn't be #1 anymore. No matter what she did, turning tricks or running numbers.

Martian Willow
Apr 29th, 2004, 06:38 AM
...perhaps Martina should have taken up acting when she retired... :)

DunkMachine
Apr 29th, 2004, 06:44 AM
""Talent does what it can; genius does what it must."-martina in a nutshell-"

So translation...retire early?
No it means "retire early because any genius would know I'll get my ass kicked"

tennisjunky
Apr 29th, 2004, 09:47 AM
I think Martina let all the talk going around get to her. I dont think things changed that much in the months that she was out and when she came back from her injuries. During that time everyone kept saying that the game has now passed her up and she will no longer be able to stay on top. I think Hingis started letting all the talk get to her and it effected her game and her confidence. She may have remained competitive with Serena and Venus toward the end, but Hingis didnt want to be competitive, she wanted to win. Martina has been a winner all her life and all the sudden she wasn't winning. At one time Martina was the most confident person to have ever stepped out on the court but she just stopped believing in herself and her game collapsed. Of course she wouldnt have been able to stay on top, but with a lot of hard work she could have eaisly stayed a fixture in the top ten but her lack of confidence combined with her laziness made her give in to fear and retire. I think the injuries are a convienient excuse for her, but not the only reason behind her early retirement.

If I have to pick a specific match that pushed her over the edge into retirement it was her match against Myskina at the Pilot Pen. Hingis won the first set and was a point away from a 5-1 one lead in the second set, then Myskina began to play really aggressive and ended up winning ELEVEN straight games :eek: :eek: Myskina ended up winning the match 6-7,6-4,-6-0. And I think the embarrassment of that loss stayed with Hingis and pushed her to retirement. She could have just shrugged that loss off as rust from coming back from injury but with her losses against Monica, Nadia, and Elena it was evident that she was going to have to make some drastic changes and Hingis was too scared to put in the work. She knew she couldnt compete with Serena, Lindsay, and Venus, if she couldn't even beat the second tier players. So off to the sunset she went.

Greenout
Apr 29th, 2004, 10:34 AM
I think Martina let all the talk going around get to her. I dont think things changed that much in the months that she was out and when she came back from her injuries. During that time everyone kept saying that the game has now passed her up and she will no longer be able to stay on top. I think Hingis started letting all the talk get to her and it effected her game and her confidence. She may have remained competitive with Serena and Venus toward the end, but Hingis didnt want to be competitive, she wanted to win. Martina has been a winner all her life and all the sudden she wasn't winning. At one time Martina was the most confident person to have ever stepped out on the court but she just stopped believing in herself and her game collapsed. Of course she wouldnt have been able to stay on top, but with a lot of hard work she could have eaisly stayed a fixture in the top ten but her lack of confidence combined with her laziness made her give in to fear and retire. I think the injuries are a convienient excuse for her, but not the only reason behind her early retirement.

If I have to pick a specific match that pushed her over the edge into retirement it was her match against Myskina at the Pilot Pen. Hingis won the first set and was a point away from a 5-1 one lead in the second set, then Myskina began to play really aggressive and ended up winning ELEVEN straight games :eek: :eek: Myskina ended up winning the match 6-7,6-4,-6-0. And I think the embarrassment of that loss stayed with Hingis and pushed her to retirement. She could have just shrugged that loss off as rust from coming back from injury but with her losses against Monica, Nadia, and Elena it was evident that she was going to have to make some drastic changes and Hingis was too scared to put in the work. She knew she couldnt compete with Serena, Lindsay, and Venus, if she couldn't even beat the second tier players. So off to the sunset she went.

Bravo! This is the best post in this thread. They always said she
was going to have a hard time because there was always LD, Pierce,
and then Venus came along.

I think the Myskina match, and that particular upset against Dani
at IW really set her mind up about where her career was going.
Yeah, sure Justine was around- but she was still that skinny kid
with the backhand and before she got her act together. The thing
is that even after Martina trained, and worked on her foot speed
she used the exact same match tactics. She was flowing better
on court; but as I remember it- the matches didn't seem to be
going anywhere. She started to want to battle from the baseline,
and I do recall seeing her play the Big Girls and have the
racket fly out of her hands during the returns. In the latter stages
of her career matches, all the wit, and all court game seemed to
have been forgotten, and it wasn't a pretty sight. At that moment
in 2001 Justine and Kim already despite being newbies were already
quicker than the "new faster Hingis". I think we just have to except
that some people can only run so fast no matter how much they
train. Kim and Justine have a European football background in their
childhood and were always running all over the place. Hingis had to
learn to be a good runner in her career.

Again- tennisjunky good post. Yep, it was losing to the Dani's and
the Myskina's etc... that dragged down Martina's confidence. Losing
to Serena isn't a bad thing, losing to Dani in an Indian Wells final
was kind of weird. If you recall the match - Dani was playing the
all court game and perfectly. She made Hingis look slow and
1-dimensional. Out played by someone using her own style of
play. It was too strange, and I'm not surprised that it got to her
emotionally.

Alan
Apr 29th, 2004, 11:12 AM
I understand what you are trying to say. However; Compare the early matches between The Williams Sisters and Martina Hingis to the later matches, you will find that the only differance between the two periods is that The Williams Sisters got better, while Hingis stayed at the same level. Hingis stayed at the same level because that was enough to ensure her a win against Serena and Venus!! Hingis is hailed as this Mental genious on the tennis court, but she and her fans failed to realize what everyone else knew all along, that eventually the Williams Sisters game would mature, and they would cut down on the errors, and as a result Hingis's tactic of just pushing ball back over the net until her apponent makes an error would no longer be enough to ensure a win. I don't buy the argument that had Hingis added more power to her game that she would've still been able to beat the Williams'. I think that Hingis won because of her ability to keep balls in play, adding power would have added more errors to her game, and ultimately it would've led to her loosing a lot more!! I have not doubt that had Hingis stayed in the game, she may still have been able to compete with the Williams Sisters. I don't think that she would have won much though, and not only against the Williams' but a lot of other players on the tour. Personally I think that Hingis could accept loosing to anyone else except the Williams Sisters, and this is why she bolted from the tour(see animation) :bolt:
yeah, we did see how hingis dominated in most of her matches against the williams...:worship:

and we also saw how the williams improved against hingis in their last few matches... :eek:

but with the williams's physical prowess, aren't they just rusting themselves into retirement ALSO?:sad: despite not playing fully

i dont think anybody forced hingis into retirement... only she, herself did... hopefully, she's happy with that decision:confused:

Ballbuster
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:05 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: Yes they did. Venus, Serena, and Lindsay.

Martina realized, and stated that she couldn't be #1 anymore. No matter what she did, turning tricks or running numbers.

pualeez
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:49 PM
I thought Seles was having the same problems with her feet as Hingis and it doesn't seem like Seles is quitting even though she knows how hard it is to compete with the girls of today.

I think Martina' s pride was the biggest factor. She could not handle competing knowing you are not going to be top dog anymore. It is ashame though cause she was so young and she brought a lot of flavor to the sport. IMO she could have worked on parts of her game that would of helped her be more competitive with all the power players of today's tennis. But there is no doubt she would of struggled even without the so called foot problems excuse.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:01 PM
i dont understand why some people cant understand that regardless of who caused her injuiries *yes i agree the williams sisters were a big force in causing hingis to go through alot of physical changes* the main reason why she retired was because of her injuries. if she could get better, she would relish the challenge of the sisters. she got beaten 5 times in a row by lindsay for a while but she said her self, she still wanted to play her, so she could find a way to win.

Did steffi retire because of hingis?
Did arantxa retire because of seles?

Did the william sisters start to play less because of justine and kim?

no.

so let it go.
Why would STEFFI retire because of HIngis? She spanked her (and made her cry) 7 out of nine times...

Experimentee
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:01 PM
Hingis said recently that even if she was healthy she wouldnt be playing because she couldnt stand to be losing her comeback matches like Venus was. That makes it clear that the injury wasnt the only thing forcing her out.

I think she was forced out by the way the game had changed to power tennis, the main players were Venus, Serena, Davenport and Capriati. She had humiliating losses to all those players which made her lose her motivation and realise that the game was evolving past her.

Knizzle
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:11 PM
Problem with Hingis was that when the sisters were on, she could do nothing. Seems like she couldn't do anything with Capriati or Davenport when they were on either.

TonyP
Apr 29th, 2004, 03:21 PM
What Hingis actually said was, she has now been off the tour so long that, even if she were completely healthy, she probably wouldn't be able to get back to her winning form.

She has always felt, rightly or wrongly, that she herself could not stay away from the tour for very long and then come back and play at a top level. She is probably the only top player I ever heard say that by the end of the short tennis off season, she was eager to get back to playing.

She rarely took very long breaks from tennis when she was on the tour. She didn't play that often, averaging just under 18 tournaments per year during her seven full years of playing, (I'm counting from 1995 through 2001) but she always seemed to think that taking any long breaks would harm her game.

Her departure from the sport had nothing to do with the Williams sisters and everything to do with her own mobility (hampered by injuries) and her motivation. And it is interesting to me that her decision to retire took place after the first lengthy lay offs of her career, which both came within a year's time.

I think, had she not been forced to undergo the SECOND operation and had she not been experiencing the continued foot problems, she might well have stuck around another couple of years.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Bravo! This is the best post in this thread. They always said she
was going to have a hard time because there was always LD, Pierce,
and then Venus came along.

I think the Myskina match, and that particular upset against Dani
at IW really set her mind up about where her career was going.
Yeah, sure Justine was around- but she was still that skinny kid
with the backhand and before she got her act together. The thing
is that even after Martina trained, and worked on her foot speed
she used the exact same match tactics. She was flowing better
on court; but as I remember it- the matches didn't seem to be
going anywhere. She started to want to battle from the baseline,
and I do recall seeing her play the Big Girls and have the
racket fly out of her hands during the returns. In the latter stages
of her career matches, all the wit, and all court game seemed to
have been forgotten, and it wasn't a pretty sight. At that moment
in 2001 Justine and Kim already despite being newbies were already
quicker than the "new faster Hingis". I think we just have to except
that some people can only run so fast no matter how much they
train. Kim and Justine have a European football background in their
childhood and were always running all over the place. Hingis had to
learn to be a good runner in her career.

Again- tennisjunky good post. Yep, it was losing to the Dani's and
the Myskina's etc... that dragged down Martina's confidence. Losing
to Serena isn't a bad thing, losing to Dani in an Indian Wells final
was kind of weird. If you recall the match - Dani was playing the
all court game and perfectly. She made Hingis look slow and
1-dimensional. Out played by someone using her own style of
play. It was too strange, and I'm not surprised that it got to her
emotionally.
Am I agreeing with Greenout??!! Ack!!
Seriously though, very objective and well thought-out post. I agree that losing to a Serena or Venus or Lindsay would not be as harsh as losing to a Tier II player. I think the fact that the game had evolved and the players had evolved was a factor, but her ego could not fathom losing to lower ranked players so badly and that pushed her over the edge.

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:54 PM
Why would STEFFI retire because of HIngis? She spanked her (and made her cry) 7 out of nine times...
:haha: :haha: :haha:

Shuji Shuriken
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:57 PM
I was forced into retirement after I was caught sucking off the coach :sad: :sad:

Martian KC
Apr 29th, 2004, 06:27 PM
Another proof of how classless willifans are. Well done, you guys.:clap:

Pureracket
Apr 29th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Another proof of how classless willifans are. Well done, you guys.:clap:I think I'm the biggest example of classlessness. Thanks.

*Pureracket continues to tear Hingis down*

DeDe4925
Apr 29th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Another proof of how classless willifans are. Well done, you guys.:clap:
Another proof??!! :smash: How about MORE proof of your classlessness, idiot.

Mrs. Peel
Apr 29th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Another proof??!! :smash: How about MORE proof of your classlessness, idiot.
that's what the KC stands for King of Classlessness!!! :p The most bitter grape of the bunch attacking people :rolleyes: :baby: The #1 abuser of the "Williams' Fan" rant :rolleyes:

DunkMachine
Apr 29th, 2004, 07:15 PM
Another proof of how classless willifans are. Well done, you guys.:clap:
Nienernienerniener :nerner:

harloo
Apr 29th, 2004, 07:27 PM
I think Martina let all the talk going around get to her. I dont think things changed that much in the months that she was out and when she came back from her injuries. During that time everyone kept saying that the game has now passed her up and she will no longer be able to stay on top. I think Hingis started letting all the talk get to her and it effected her game and her confidence. She may have remained competitive with Serena and Venus toward the end, but Hingis didnt want to be competitive, she wanted to win. Martina has been a winner all her life and all the sudden she wasn't winning. At one time Martina was the most confident person to have ever stepped out on the court but she just stopped believing in herself and her game collapsed. Of course she wouldnt have been able to stay on top, but with a lot of hard work she could have eaisly stayed a fixture in the top ten but her lack of confidence combined with her laziness made her give in to fear and retire. I think the injuries are a convienient excuse for her, but not the only reason behind her early retirement.

I disagree with this post. I believe that Martina could not physically keep up with the pace of the tour. When she was dominating Venus, Serena, Lindsay, were not great match players. They simply were not developed like Martina who was prepared at an early age to win.

People compare H-H to Martina, but IMO their is a difference. Martina's game was solely based on outmanuevering her opponents through using crafty shots. She was an true all around player. I really don't feel their are any more finesse players in the top 10 anymore. Everyone is power including H-H.

Pamela Shriver started this nonsense that the Williams sisters forced Hingis into retirement. It was not the Williams sisters alone, it was the fact that the tour was passing her by and she could not accept it. She was a winner for so long, and to play second fiddle to the ova's of the world who cout out hit her was too much to bare.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 29th, 2004, 08:36 PM
How Ironic that she would say the tour had passed someone else, only to have that very field pass her.


I watched the 01 FCC last nite Hingis-v- Capriati...I

It seemed to me that Martina's bag of tricks was empty, and she'd resorted to hoping the big babes would self-destruct. It seemed the only trick she had left that she still used was her dropshot. Never a hard worker/trainer off the court, she'd prefer to play dubs. She was in great physical shape in 01/02, but didn't appear to have added any new demensions to her game. No more sneaking in and knocking off a volley, no more acute angles(97 French Semi -v- Monica.matchpoint great shot!) just hit the ball up and down the court and hope they miss.

Many of you miss Martina today, I missed her in 00/01/ and 02 while she was still an active player.

Jamie
May 1st, 2004, 02:39 AM
HA HA HA. In your dreams. You wish that was the reason Martina retired. Dream on.

Martian Jeza
May 1st, 2004, 08:03 AM
Another proof??!! :smash: How about MORE proof of your classlessness, idiot.


Great Post DeMond ! Keep on posting things like that !

Martian Jeza
May 1st, 2004, 08:04 AM
that's what the KC stands for King of Classlessness!!! :p The most bitter grape of the bunch attacking people :rolleyes: :baby: The #1 abuser of the "Williams' Fan" rant :rolleyes:


Ow, Poor Williams Fans ! I've compassion with them...

GoGoMaggie
May 1st, 2004, 09:13 AM
I agree with the starter of the thread. The main factor that affected her downfall and ultmately decision to retire is that 99 FO final against Graf. Hingis had that match in her hands and just let it slip by herself. Had she won that match, she would have a lot more GS titles under the belt now. She wasn't the same afterwards. She had chocked on nemerous occasions since then against not just the Willy sisters but other players, some of whom she was supposed to beat with ease (e.g. Capariati in the 01 AO final). Hingis was at her best at semi-major events (tier I, II) but always had a mental block when it mattered most. I don't believe anyone particular forced her into retirement and the Willy sisters have nothing to do with her downfall. I admit the sisters started getting the better of Martina but then like GoDomnique said, she was always putting up close fights against them and except for the last few ones, their matches were evenly split, pretty much. I believe she was already on her way to retirement as of mid 2002. She shoulda won the 2002 AO final where she had four match points or so. It was painful to watch her go down in the third. She lost so many matches in her career which she shoulda won. When she was confident (from 1997 up to the 1999 FO), she had no major choke. I never thought she would never win a major again when she won her last GS title.

flyingmachine
May 1st, 2004, 09:25 AM
Bravo! This is the best post in this thread. They always said she
was going to have a hard time because there was always LD, Pierce,
and then Venus came along.

I think the Myskina match, and that particular upset against Dani
at IW really set her mind up about where her career was going.
Yeah, sure Justine was around- but she was still that skinny kid
with the backhand and before she got her act together. The thing
is that even after Martina trained, and worked on her foot speed
she used the exact same match tactics. She was flowing better
on court; but as I remember it- the matches didn't seem to be
going anywhere. She started to want to battle from the baseline,
and I do recall seeing her play the Big Girls and have the
racket fly out of her hands during the returns. In the latter stages
of her career matches, all the wit, and all court game seemed to
have been forgotten, and it wasn't a pretty sight. At that moment
in 2001 Justine and Kim already despite being newbies were already
quicker than the "new faster Hingis". I think we just have to except
that some people can only run so fast no matter how much they
train. Kim and Justine have a European football background in their
childhood and were always running all over the place. Hingis had to
learn to be a good runner in her career.

Again- tennisjunky good post. Yep, it was losing to the Dani's and
the Myskina's etc... that dragged down Martina's confidence. Losing
to Serena isn't a bad thing, losing to Dani in an Indian Wells final
was kind of weird. If you recall the match - Dani was playing the
all court game and perfectly. She made Hingis look slow and
1-dimensional. Out played by someone using her own style of
play. It was too strange, and I'm not surprised that it got to her
emotionally.
Good one Greenout! :yeah: I'm totally agree with you. :worship:

DeDe4925
May 3rd, 2004, 05:05 AM
Great Post DeMond ! Keep on posting things like that !
Thank you for your support. :wavey: :p