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BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 12:44 AM
Ya sure there may be polls around here with rivalries between two players but I want to know who, in your people's opinions, IS THE GREATEST WOMEN'S PLAYER OF ALL TIME??? :scratch: So come on, vote and post. :worship:

Yummy
Apr 28th, 2004, 12:47 AM
wow what an original question :rolleyes: I am sure NO ONE had ever thought of this question before. Major props to you for coming up with such an innovative thread. I am sure at the end of all discussion we will have a CLEAR winner -the one , the only , the greatest player ever. DUH ! :rolleyes:

Foot_Fault
Apr 28th, 2004, 12:50 AM
She Dont Exist!

WhatTheDeuce
Apr 28th, 2004, 12:52 AM
No need to be an asshole about it... Though I agree, the question is asked too much, and nobody will ever agree.

Volcana
Apr 28th, 2004, 12:57 AM
Margaret Court Smith

Gathering you meant the greatest, not the best

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:12 AM
wow what an original question :rolleyes: I am sure NO ONE had ever thought of this question before. Major props to you for coming up with such an innovative thread. I am sure at the end of all discussion we will have a CLEAR winner -the one , the only , the greatest player ever. DUH ! :rolleyes:

GREAT OBSERVATION :clap2:

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:21 AM
:)

Stephieva
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:23 AM
me dunno all of them but me thinks steffi should be da best.

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:30 AM
me dunno all of them but me thinks steffi should be da best.

I SEE

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:36 AM
Pam.

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:05 AM
Pam.

SHRIVER?

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:09 AM
yea... pam shriver rocked!!!
you aren't aware?

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:24 AM
yea... pam shriver rocked!!!
you aren't aware?

ya i guess she was...good in doubles with navratilova right?

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 04:48 AM
:)

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 05:02 AM
by The Way, What Would Be Your People's Opinions Based On What Greatest Would Mean? :scratch:

TNT96
Apr 28th, 2004, 06:16 AM
You have to make some considerations because they played in different eras where competition was not nearly as strong as it was in Graf's era for instance (even though she pretty much dominated until 97)

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:18 PM
You have to make some considerations because they played in different eras where competition was not nearly as strong as it was in Graf's era for instance (even though she pretty much dominated until 97)

i agree each person was good at their standard during their alotted time period.

BlinX
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:23 PM
:)

SelesFan70
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:25 PM
While not the best athlete, Evert is the better tennis player in this list. Her tennis mind is par excellence. :)

space_eef03
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:30 PM
I'm going for Steffi. I don't know everyone on the list. Seles is a great player to but I'm afraid she hasn't been able to really proove it since what happened.
:)

Dolpho
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:54 PM
Steffi is surely one of the greatest! I am quite surprised that Navratilova is not getting that close to steffi in the votes. I was expecting a close one here.

BlinX
Apr 29th, 2004, 12:33 AM
I'm going for Steffi. I don't know everyone on the list. Seles is a great player to but I'm afraid she hasn't been able to really proove it since what happened.
:)

?????????????

BlinX
Apr 29th, 2004, 01:15 AM
:)

MrSerenaWilliams
Apr 29th, 2004, 01:22 AM
Without a question its Navratilova!

She won more titles than anyone else in history! She played top Tier tennis for FOUR DECADES!

*JR*
Apr 29th, 2004, 01:51 AM
Gotta be loyal to the Big Blonde le, le, lefthander; but if not for Hamburg, I think it would have been that other lefty on the list. (Once again, she won 57% of her first 14 Slams. Everyone Else in those draws combined split the other 43%).

BlinX
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:36 AM
Gotta be loyal to the Big Blonde le, le, lefthander; but if not for Hamburg, I think it would have been that other lefty on the list. (Once again, she won 57% of her first 14 Slams. Everyone Else in those draws combined split the other 43%).

who r ya talking about?

SpikeyAidanm
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:44 AM
Graf [GREATEST WOMEN'S SINGLES PLAYER EVEr]

Overall excellence achieved, only player to win at all 4 Grand Slams at least 4 times.

Navratilova never won the Grand Slam, Graf won in 1988 and would have in 1995 and 1996, has she not skipped the Aussie Open.

Her 22 GS titles is way more impressive than Court's 24, remembering Court won 11 slams at Australia with very limited competition.

Graf played in the Evert, Navratilova, Seles, Hingis, Davenport and Williams' era and had extreme success against them.

As for the overall woman's greatness, singles/doubles - Navratilova hands down.

BlinX
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:45 AM
Graf [GREATEST WOMEN'S SINGLES PLAYER EVEr]

Overall excellence achieved, only player to win at all 4 Grand Slams at least 4 times.

Navratilova never won the Grand Slam, Graf won in 1988 and would have in 1995 and 1996, has she not skipped the Aussie Open.

Her 22 GS titles is way more impressive than Court's 24, remembering Court won 11 slams at Australia with very limited competition.

Graf played in the Evert, Navratilova, Seles, Hingis, Davenport and Williams' era and had extreme success against them.

As for the overall woman's greatness, singles/doubles - Navratilova hands down.


why did she skip the aussie open??? :confused:

SpikeyAidanm
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:52 AM
Really wasn't worth the flight, Aussie Open has always been a slam players tend to skip (Tauziat, Novotna etc).

BlinX
Apr 29th, 2004, 02:54 AM
Really wasn't worth the flight, Aussie Open has always been a slam players tend to skip (Tauziat, Novotna etc).

o so it was too expensive at the time??? or what?

LucasArg
Apr 29th, 2004, 04:33 AM
Monica:hearts:

Mr_Molik
Apr 29th, 2004, 05:03 AM
Graf [GREATEST WOMEN'S SINGLES PLAYER EVEr]


Her 22 GS titles is way more impressive than Court's 24, remembering Court won 11 slams at Australia with very limited competition.



Other players in the AO's Margaret won include Darlene Hard, Maria Bueno, Billie Jean King, Rosie Casals, Helen Gourlay, Francouse Durr, Betty Stove, Evonne Goolagong, Ann Jones, Virginia Wade and Kerry Melville, all of whom were greats of their era. :)

Similar competition to the players Steffi won a lot of her slams against after Seles was stabbed (Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Pierce, Novotna, Martinez etc.)

If you included doubles, Margaret wins hands down. Without doubles, Margaret still wins.

BlinX
Apr 29th, 2004, 01:29 PM
Other players in the AO's Margaret won include Darlene Hard, Maria Bueno, Billie Jean King, Rosie Casals, Helen Gourlay, Francouse Durr, Betty Stove, Evonne Goolagong, Ann Jones, Virginia Wade and Kerry Melville, all of whom were greats of their era. :)

Similar competition to the players Steffi won a lot of her slams against after Seles was stabbed (Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Pierce, Novotna, Martinez etc.)

If you included doubles, Margaret wins hands down. Without doubles, Margaret still wins.

i agree everyone is good at their own time

BlinX
Apr 29th, 2004, 11:36 PM
:devil:

*JR*
Apr 30th, 2004, 12:10 AM
who r ya talking about? Re. my vote, Martina I. Re. those Slam Statistics, Monica.

BlinX
Apr 30th, 2004, 12:56 AM
i see

Celeste
Apr 30th, 2004, 01:37 AM
Anyone who votes for Martina Hingis over Chris Evert is insane, and a lot of this is going on. Hingis was a nice player, but Chris Evert has a record that is like a million times better. Martina is fine, but Chris is like a million times better, give me a break! Hingis fans need to get a clue.

davenport_1
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:14 AM
Greatest? Davenport,Seles, or Capriati

Best? Evert

harloo
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:22 AM
Martina H should not be on the list.:rolleyes: It's between Steffi Graf and Nav.;)

VeraNuVirgosFan
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:22 AM
Although I'm a big Steffi Graf fan, I'm not gonna vote on this POLL.

As I'm also a big fan of the Williams sisters, therefore I want to wait until Venus & Serena retire from tennis before voting on such a POLL.

BlinX
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:30 AM
Although I'm a big Steffi Graf fan, I'm not gonna vote on this POLL.

As I'm also a big fan of the Williams sisters, therefore I want to wait until Venus & Serena retire from tennis before voting on such a POLL.

an the capitalization of POLL is for what reason exactly?:scratch:

VeraNuVirgosFan
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:55 AM
an the capitalization of POLL is for what reason exactly?:scratch:
It's just for someone like you to ask me a question...

Cheers!

BlinX
Apr 30th, 2004, 04:13 AM
i see

BlinX
Apr 30th, 2004, 04:56 AM
:)

VeraNuVirgosFan
Apr 30th, 2004, 05:11 AM
Cheers & Beer!

BlinX
Apr 30th, 2004, 09:46 PM
???????

*JR*
May 1st, 2004, 12:05 AM
Martina H should not be on the list.:rolleyes: It's between Steffi Graf and Nav.;)
Injuries Are A normal part of the game. Stabbings aren't, so Monica deserves 2B evaluated in the "if not for" context, IMO. (Putting her right up there with your 2 contenders).

BlinX
May 1st, 2004, 04:29 AM
Injuries Are A normal part of the game. Stabbings aren't, so Monica deserves 2B evaluated in the "if not for" context, IMO. (Putting her right up there with your 2 contenders).

i agree, even though i wasn't born during the stabbing, I think people don't give her enough credit for how good she actually was before the stabbing.

MrYonex
May 1st, 2004, 05:04 AM
:bounce: MONICA! :bounce:

GoGoMaggie
May 1st, 2004, 06:54 AM
Magdalena Maleeva! :kiss:

BlinX
May 1st, 2004, 02:15 PM
:scratch:

VeraNuVirgosFan
May 3rd, 2004, 03:20 AM
...I think people don't give her enough credit for how good she actually was before the stabbing.
I agree with you.

And that's why I didn't vote on the Graf & Seles - who is the greater player POLL, despite being a big Graf fan.

With the stabbing, unfortunately and regrettably we could never see the true rivalry between them.

Stamp Paid
May 3rd, 2004, 06:16 AM
Greatest?? Umm....why is Serena Williams NOT an option?! Some poll.

BlinX
May 4th, 2004, 12:41 AM
I agree with you.

And that's why I didn't vote on the Graf & Seles - who is the greater player POLL, despite being a big Graf fan.

With the stabbing, unfortunately and regrettably we could never see the true rivalry between them.

ya

arcus
May 4th, 2004, 02:06 AM
Serena is not listed, cos she is mid-career, and so far her achievements, great as they are, dont compare with others who are listed. That said, many of those that are listed haven't won all the slams so they cant be the greatest either, IMO.

The responses reflect the likes of those voting more rather than the players greatness.
more modern palyers dominate cos more on here watched them winning.
3 votes for mgt court is an insult. To be honest it highlights the lack of depth of tennis knowledge on the board. It just means that virtually no one on here has a clue who she is, or what she did in tennis. I'm not a huge fan of her personally, but i certainly appreciate that she CLEARLY dwarfs most on that list in tennis except possibly nav graf evert. With them its an arguement.
With all due respect to hingis, who i loved to watch, and ASV, as well as even goolagong and seles, they all failed to win at least on of the slams and their totals are way off the pace.

Everyone on here has an opinion, but so few posters have objectivity............. and that applies to most threads on here too.. pity :(

tommyk75
May 4th, 2004, 02:58 PM
Like others (the smart ones) have pointed out, there are only four or five legitimate candidates when you're talking about players from the Open Era: Court, Navratilova, Graf, Evert, and maybe BJK. If you want to include players from before then, you could also bring up Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills Moody, and Maureen Connolly. For those of you talking about Serena or Martina H or Maggie Maleeva (what the...?), we understand that she is your FAVORITE player. However, please understand that is a very different thing from being the GREATEST player of all-time. Otherwise, I'd be proclaiming Gaby Sabatini as the best of them all.

But back in the real world, I've gotta go with Martina Navratilova as the best, edging out Graf and then Court. Chris Evert has an amazing record, too, but when she was playing her best tennis, she had a rival (Martina N) that was even better than her, albeit the closeness of the rivalry. With Margaret Court, her main problems are the Aussie Open Absences factor (yes, some great players played the tournament a couple of times, but most skipped it quite regularly) and her reputation for being a bit of a choker in important moments. With Steffi and Martina, it's such a close call, but I gave the edge to Martina based on the fact Martina had greater longetivity (Martina was able to beat Graf well into her mid-thirties) and in my opinion Martina at her best was a better player than Graf at her best (Martina would keep approaching to Graf's backhand and would break it down). Graf was great too, but I gotta go with Martina. **As Martina herself said, Monica definitely could've been one of the best, but she "doesn't have the numbers." Of course the reason for that is terrible and unfair, and it's sad that it keeps discussions of Monica being the best to the hypothetical.

Andy T
May 4th, 2004, 03:42 PM
Beautifully put TommyK75. I agree with everything you say. It is really impossible to argue conclusively that Steffi, Marge, Chris or Martina (or Helen Wills or Suzanne Lenglen or Maureen Connolly) is the greatest of all time, just as it's impossible to prove that such and such an artist, actor, composer is better than all the others (and Thank God that is the case).

Even though I've always been a megafan of Martina N's and feel that she was the most complete player technically who could do anything with the ball, I readily accept that she wasn't the absolute best in every department of the game (e.g. she could be a basket case on the court sometimes).

DA FOREHAND
May 4th, 2004, 04:46 PM
"Even though I've always been a megafan of Martina N's and feel that she was the most complete player technically who could do anything with the ball,"

I could say the same for Steffi Graf.
These are very circular discussions, and the votes never change.

tommyk75
May 4th, 2004, 05:13 PM
Steffi's the most complete player technically who could do anything with the ball??? Not quite. Steffi's topspin backhand was on and off throughout her career (near the end, she hardly ever used it and didn't need to as there were almost no net-rushers to make her use it). Also, Steffi is definitely an underrated volleyer, but her approach shots were not that great. Martina, on the other hand, had every shot in the book; her problems were more mental than anything else.

Oh, and more point I forgot to make. Steffi skipped the Australian Open a few times, but both Chris and Martina used to skip the Australian Open (too far, nowhere the prestige it has now) AND the French (overlapped World Team Tennis, which paid big bucks and lured away a lot of the top players for several years)! It's a shame, especially for Chris, because she wouldn't surely won a few more French Open's and added to her number of Slam titles...

DA FOREHAND
May 4th, 2004, 05:23 PM
Steffi's the most complete player technically who could do anything with the ball??? Not quite. Steffi's topspin backhand was on and off throughout her career (near the end, she hardly ever used it and didn't need to as there were almost no net-rushers to make her use it). Also, Steffi is definitely an underrated volleyer, but her approach shots were not that great. Martina, on the other hand, had every shot in the book; her problems were more mental than anything else.

Oh, and more point I forgot to make. Steffi skipped the Australian Open a few times, but both Chris and Martina used to skip the Australian Open (too far, nowhere the prestige it has now) AND the French (overlapped World Team Tennis, which paid big bucks and lured away a lot of the top players for several years)! It's a shame, especially for Chris, because she wouldn't surely won a few more French Open's and added to her number of Slam titles...

yes Steffi could hit every shot in the book, her topspin backhand is what helped her even out the h2h w/Martina. If you line them up stroke for stroke I'm quite sure Steffi would come out on top...especially on a point system say 1-5

Serve

Steffi 4
Martina 5

Forehand
Steffi 5
Martina 3.5

Backhand
Steffi 5
Martina 4

Volley

Martina 5
Steffi 4

Overhead
Martina 5
Steffi 3.5

Backhand overhead
Steffi 5
Martina 4.5

Dropshot

Steffi 5
Martina 4

In any event...most of the top players can hit every shot in the book, even todays two-handers can hit slice backhands, and I've yet to see any shot Martina has hit that Steffi hasn't.

LDVTennis
May 5th, 2004, 12:04 AM
I don't see why people argue between Navratilova and Graf. Graf said it herself that Navratilova is greater than her, that should close the debate.

Please provide the source if it exists. But to the best of my recollection, Steffi never said anything of the sort.

About Martina, she's said more than a few times that she (Steffi) always felt challenged playing her. That hardly means that she thought Martina was better than her.

As to the stroke by stroke comparison, I take exception to the higher rating for Martina's serve. Steffi had much higher MPH on her first serve. Steffi's second serve was more consistent than Martina's. Steffi could ace you in one of three ways - extreme out wide to the AD court, slice out wide to the deuce court, and down the T. Martina's service motion and the natural lefty hook on her serve made it extremely difficult for her to hit her serve extremely out wide to the AD court.

Steffi could beat you with her serve as she did to Seles in the '96 US Open Final. Martina often used her serve to set up her volley. For Steffi, therefore, the serve was a true weapon. For Martina, it worked in conjunction with her volley to win points.

As to their relative greatness, I think it speaks volumes that Steffi's game was effective against the likes of Venus and Serena. It just wasn't her athleticism that made her competitive against this new style of play. It was also the fact that she could hit winners from the baseline, even more reliably in fact from the forehand side than either Venus or Serena.

Because Martina never possessed that one big shot that could hit winners from the baseline, I don't think she would have fared as well against Venus and Serena. Their heavy shots would have neutralized her volley game. Their big serves would have kept her at the baseline for the most part, where she would have been even more vulnerable to their movement and power.

Graf proved at the '99 Wimbledon that her game may be the only one for the ages. She looked faster and more nimble than the younger Venus Williams. And, her forehand clearly outclassed any shot from her younger opponent. That match alone sealed Graf's place as the greatest ever. She knew it when she clinched her fist at the end and ran up to the net. And, we all knew it.

darren cahill
May 5th, 2004, 12:08 AM
I don't see why people argue between Navratilova and Graf. Graf said it herself that Navratilova is greater than her, that should close the debate.
i always wondered why there was a debate in the first place? maybe its just me but i like things that can be proven once and for all....like is my pen blue ink or black....its one or the other....but this stuff just goes on and on and on and on and come next month a new poll will come up saying 'who's the best'....i'll still vote Graf as i always do but i also dont really care if she is or isnt...they were all good in their own way...

Steffica Greles
May 5th, 2004, 12:08 AM
My opinion:

Navratilova - Statistically the greatest over all player of all time

Graf - Greatest over all singles player of all time

Seles - Greatest performances of all time (Aussie 93, French 92)


...I had to vote for Martina.

BlinX
May 5th, 2004, 12:11 AM
Serena is not listed, cos she is mid-career, and so far her achievements, great as they are, dont compare with others who are listed. That said, many of those that are listed haven't won all the slams so they cant be the greatest either, IMO.

The responses reflect the likes of those voting more rather than the players greatness.
more modern palyers dominate cos more on here watched them winning.
3 votes for mgt court is an insult. To be honest it highlights the lack of depth of tennis knowledge on the board. It just means that virtually no one on here has a clue who she is, or what she did in tennis. I'm not a huge fan of her personally, but i certainly appreciate that she CLEARLY dwarfs most on that list in tennis except possibly nav graf evert. With them its an arguement.
With all due respect to hingis, who i loved to watch, and ASV, as well as even goolagong and seles, they all failed to win at least on of the slams and their totals are way off the pace.

Everyone on here has an opinion, but so few posters have objectivity............. and that applies to most threads on here too.. pity :(

Well said :clap2:

faboozadoo15
May 5th, 2004, 01:51 AM
My opinion:

Navratilova - Statistically the greatest over all player of all time

Graf - Greatest over all singles player of all time

Seles - Greatest performances of all time (Aussie 93, French 92)


...I had to vote for Martina.
pretty good assessment
but i'd add
chris evert- the greatest amount of consistency-- and sometimes consistency is looked at as a less than positive thing for some reason, but i think it's a huge compliment. 13 straight years she won at least one slam-- incredible longevity. and she's oft overlooked...

BlinX
May 5th, 2004, 02:11 AM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

backpacker905
May 5th, 2004, 02:16 AM
Sorry,

My vote is Venus Williams. No doubt about that!

BlinX
May 5th, 2004, 04:04 AM
Sorry,

My vote is Venus Williams. No doubt about that!

ya but we haven't seen her entire potential...yet

morbidangle
May 5th, 2004, 07:19 AM
I read it in French tennis magazine. It clearly says that Steffi said that she didn't feel she was the greatest, Navratilova is.
Steffi always does that! She never says things like I am the greatest.. seems like she really doesn't care about the records, which IMO is great. Here is an old article..



Graf is the best,Right?Just dont ask her

By ROBIN FINN


When the talk turned to her place in history, Steffi Graf, the most dominant female tennis player of this century, usually averted her eyes.

"Let other people be the judge of that," said Graf, who carried her lack of interest in statistics, feuds and records along with her into her abrupt and unheralded retirement last week. Didn't she want to be remembered as the greatest player in history? As the only woman to win all four Grand Slam events at least four times, and as the only player, male or female, to own the No. 1 ranking for 186 weeks consecutively and 377 weeks in total, how could she possibly avoid it?

One way to deflect the unwanted attention from herself was to laud her respected rival and predecessor at the top, Martina Navratilova, as the century's most notable player. Tuesday Graf, whose decadelong rivalry with Navratilova ended in a 9-9 stalemate, did just that.

"For me she is the uncontested No. 1; she has left a mark on the sport like no one else," Graf told the German news agency DPA. Needless to say, Graf never mentioned anything remotely like that to Navratilova, who retired in 1994 with a record 167 titles, 18 in Grand Slam singles.

"It's kind of her to say that, but I don't see how you can really come out and say point blank who's the greatest," Navratilova said from her home in Aspen, Colo. "When I first started out, I wanted to be No. 1, and then I wanted to be the greatest of all time, but the closer I got, I realized it was a bunch of baloney.

"What's true is that there is a definite group of great players, and she's in it, and I'm in it. Chris is there, and Billie Jean, and Margaret Court. But I can't pick between myself and Steffi. When people call me the greatest player ever, I get embarrassed, and when I hear them call Steffi the greatest, I say, 'Hey, wait a minute, what am I, chopped liver?' "

Great, greater, greatest: it's a debate that Graf, who won her 22d Grand Slam singles crown at the French Open in Paris two months ago only to retire from tennis last Friday at 30, managed to sidestep in her 17-year career.

Greatness was not the intangible that concerned Graf. Perfection was. But when she became convinced she wouldn't produce any more perfect seven-round performances at the Grand Slams, she quit on the virtual eve of the United States Open. It is an event she won five times but where, to the shock of several rivals, she won't try to reach a third straight 1999 Slam final later this month.

"She's always a threat at every tournament, but it'll be different at the Grand Slams," said Lindsay Davenport, who defeated Graf last month in the Wimbledon final. "I was expecting her to end her career at the U.S. Open. To take away such a huge threat is kind of really bizarre. Hopefully we can sustain this loss on the tour; it's kind of amazing to think that she'd gone."

Davenport was 6-8 in career encounters with Graf. But the fate she doled out to Davenport was the rule, not the exception.

Regardless of the generation, Graf was a nemesis. No one could ward off her bludgeon of a forehand with any consistency, and no one could hit the ball hard enough, or place it strategically enough, to thwart her footwork. The New Age power players despised her slithering backhand slice and envied her icy composure and racehorse physique. The generation that preceded her simply bowed to her power.

"Steffi was faster, stronger and moved better," said Pavel Slozil, who coached her when she made her initial ascent to No. 1. "Martina Navratilova moved the game two steps forward with her athleticism and attacking game, and then Steffi took it one step further than that. I don't see anybody repeating what they did, and it's a very difficult decision to choose between the two of them, but in my eyes, Steffi was the best ever."

Against Chris Evert, the player she defeated in 1986 for the first of her 107 titles and the only player with a career winning percentage superior to her .887, Graf lost six straight matches before turning the tables and coming out on top, 8-6.

Against Gabriela Sabatini, the contemporary originally cast as her archrival, she was 29-11.

Against Monica Seles, the player who displaced her at No. 1, Graf went 10-5, the last of her victories a 6-7 (2-7), 6-3, 6-4 semifinal comeback this year at the French Open.

And for the best of the teen-agers who followed her, and who occasionally referred to her as over the hill, Graf had a ready answer: against top-ranked Martina Hingis, Graf wound up 7-2. Graf's stirring 4-6, 7-5, 6-2 throttling of Hingis at the French Open final this June was perhaps the most emphatic parting shot the game has ever seen.

It created a memory so perfect, said Graf, that she knew she'd never play another French Open for fear of tarnishing it. Too, that match made a lasting impression on the loser.

"She's a great legend: all she brought to the game is amazing, the athleticism, the way she handled herself," Hingis said yesterday from Toronto. "Nobody is like her; nobody ever will be like her. But I think it's difficult to compare players from different times, so I couldn't say if she was the best."

But the redoubtable Billie Jean King, a k a Mother Tennis, who counted 12 Slams among her 67 titles and put the machismo into women's tennis by beating Bobby Riggs 26 years ago, had no such reservations: "Steffi is definitely the greatest women's tennis player of all time."

GoGoMaggie
May 5th, 2004, 07:21 AM
I would have voted for Serena if her name were on the list.

morbidangle
May 5th, 2004, 07:26 AM
Yes Steffi said that, but it doesn't say much! Its typical of her to say that !

Steffi! :worship:

~VaMoS~ArAnTxA~
May 5th, 2004, 10:26 PM
For me, it is Arantxa...no doubt about that!

Vamos Arantxa! :worship:

DA FOREHAND
May 5th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Yes Steffi said that, but it doesn't say much! Its typical of her to say that !

Steffi! :worship:
I agree Steffi has never been an attention seeking ego maniac. And I love Navratilova, I was literally in awe of her when I met her back in 84.

What I've always admired about Steffi is she always seemed to be competeting more against herself than her oppoenent, living for the challenge. IT's no wonder her fav. uso match is the 86 loss to Nav.

BlinX
May 6th, 2004, 12:33 AM
I agree Steffi has never been an attention seeking ego maniac. And I love Navratilova, I was literally in awe of her when I met her back in 84.

What I've always admired about Steffi is she always seemed to be competeting more against herself than her oppoenent, living for the challenge. IT's no wonder her fav. uso match is the 86 loss to Nav.

ya

rada
May 6th, 2004, 04:28 AM
monica would have been...

BlinX
May 8th, 2004, 02:01 AM
monica would have been...

:sad:

BlinX
May 8th, 2004, 06:52 PM
bump

SilviaFan
May 8th, 2004, 10:48 PM
STEFFI :yeah:

BlinX
May 16th, 2004, 01:35 AM
?
?

?

Philbo
May 16th, 2004, 02:40 AM
yes Steffi could hit every shot in the book, her topspin backhand is what helped her even out the h2h w/Martina. If you line them up stroke for stroke I'm quite sure Steffi would come out on top...especially on a point system say 1-5

Serve

Steffi 4
Martina 5

Forehand
Steffi 5
Martina 3.5

Backhand
Steffi 5
Martina 4

Volley

Martina 5
Steffi 4

Overhead
Martina 5
Steffi 3.5

Backhand overhead
Steffi 5
Martina 4.5

Dropshot

Steffi 5
Martina 4

In any event...most of the top players can hit every shot in the book, even todays two-handers can hit slice backhands, and I've yet to see any shot Martina has hit that Steffi hasn't.
LOL@ some of your analysis..

1) You rate Steffi's backhand overhead above Martna's?? Wake up and smell the coffee, Martina's backhand volley was her bread and butter shot and I would have been lucky to see Graf hit 5 backhand smashes her entire career!

2)Steffi's backhand better than Martina's??? Again, being generous to Graf, the most she could hope for is an equal rating with Nav. Nav had a much more reliable topsin backhand and her slice was at least equal to Steffi's backhand slice..Martina had to hit approach shots off her backhand also which were effective, something Graf never had to do..everyone knew Graf's wekness was her backhand and just watch her losses against mOnica and Martina - both of them play her backhand all day with a LOT of success.

BlinX
Jun 28th, 2004, 04:14 AM
whoa this is old.........

Sam L
Jun 28th, 2004, 04:22 AM
I voted Martina N but it's actually one of these 3:

Martina N: Perhaps the best all round singles, doubles, mixed player with a huge longevity equation. Vegetarian, social activist and environmentalist.

Steffi: Perhaps the best all-surface player ever with no weak surface. WWF girl.

Billie-Jean: Not the best on court but vegetarian, social activist and feminist and the reason why the women's tour is here today.

All terrific women. :)

queenz of tenniz
Jun 28th, 2004, 06:52 AM
Gotta be loyal to the Big Blonde le, le, lefthander; but if not for Hamburg, I think it would have been that other lefty on the list. (Once again, she won 57% of her first 14 Slams. Everyone Else in those draws combined split the other 43%).

Ill go for Martina Navratilova but you are very right, it should have been Monica Seles if not for the tragedy in Hamburg.

Steffi Graf is one of the greats but certainly far from the greatest knowing that incident in Hamburg which brought the down the career of world number one Monica Seles who won a mindboggling 8 Slams in 1993 while playing less than 20 GS tournaments than the german ace.

Steffi's career will forever be tainted by the Seles Tragedy.

queenz of tenniz
Jun 28th, 2004, 07:03 AM
Women's tennis changed dramatically 11 years ago, altered forever in the middle of an otherwise ordinary match by a man with a knife.World number one and winner of the last seven Grand Slams for the past three years Monica Seles was resting during a changeover at the Hamburg Open. She had gone through hundreds of them in a career that had taken her to the top of women's tennis.This one was not routine.The 19-year-old winner of six Grand Slam titles in the previous two years was toweling off in a chair, catching her breath for the next game against Magdalena Maleeva. She had been sidelined for more than two months with a viral infection. She would have to pace herself in a match she was leading 6-4, 4-3.Then, in an instant, Seles felt a sharp pain in her back.Guenter Parche had made his way through the stands to courtside. With no one stopping him, the German came up behind Seles and plunged a 5-inch knife into her back, just below her left shoulder blade.Seles screamed and collapsed, her face contorted with shock and pain. Aides rushed to her and she was taken to Hamburg Hospital."Never mind the personal implications, the life-altering event that was," Martina Navratilova said. "It changed the course of tennis history. We'll never know what she might have been, how many more slams she would have won." Seles was clearly on her way to becoming the greatest ever.The attack reverberated across sports. Players became more wary of fans, teams and organizers were forced to re-examine security arrangements. Seles does not like to talk about that violent day in Germany, but at one recent interview she was asked about her legendary but violently interrupted career."I really don't dwell in the past," she said. "Would I change? Yeah, I wish I didn't get stabbed and played and competed at the highest level for those few years."Parche was obsessed with Steffi Graf, who was competing with Seles for the top spot in women's tennis. By injuring Seles, he reasoned, he would give Graf an edge.He was right about that.Navratilova had Chris Evert to create one of the great rivalries in sports. But Graf never really had Seles, who arrived on the scene after Graf swept the four Grand Slam tournaments in 1988.Seles was the undisputed No. 1 player in the world and clearly on her way to being the greatest ever when she was attacked. She had won the Australian, French and U.S. Open titles in each of the previous two years. There had been three straight Australian crowns after Graf had won three in a row there. Seles had won 30 singles titles in just five years, eight of them Grand Slams. In only four years as a professional she won 8 Grand Slams titles. Morever, she had never lost a Grand Slam final in her first 6 GS finals. Only one other player had ever been as flawless under pressure: Margaret Court. No one else though. Billie Jean King was 2-4 in her first six Grand Slam finals: Steffi was 4-2, Martina Navaratilova was 3-3. Even the so called new wunderkinds like Hingis and both the Williamses, with all the hype about their finesse and power never came close. Seles’s success rate was the best in history.Then Parche struck.The knife wound healed quickly. The psychological injury took far longer.Seles was off the court for 27 months. In Seles’ absence, Steffi Graf had come again to dominate women’s tennis.Suddenly it was the late 1980’s again, and Graf was nothing short of invincible. She has reigned as the game’s number one again. It was not so long ago that Seles came along and took over atop the women’s ranking in March 1991 and never relinquished it till the tragedy. With Seles out of the picture, In the 13 months since the attack on Seles, Graf had won four consecutive Grand Slams and went on to win even more even upon the return of Seles who was never the same player after the attack. Graf’s play was suddenly flawless and impeccable. And yet, she hardly seemed like she really deserved of reclaiming her lost glory….winning all those Grand Slams were hollow. Graf had to live with the guilt of having played a role, however unintentional. She had to cope with the spectre of Monica Seles hanging over every point, every set every match, every tournament. What If Monica were here???No matter how well she played; no matter how she tried to distance herself from Gunther Parche; no matter how innocent she truly was. Graf would have to live with the knowledge that her so called “reclaimed glory” was highly attributable to a despicably violent act perpetrated against the best player in the game, Monica Seles, by one of her fans.. Now the Grand Slam events were the exclusive domain of Steffi Graf. Even Graf’s agent , Phil de Picciotto, had to admit that time the game was in a rut. When Seles finally came back in 1995 to reclaim what was was truly hers. It was still vintage Seles. Or was it?????Her tennis was topflight. Her frame of mind was not."There are flashbacks," she said. "On long points, I start thinking. Then I tell myself, 'You can't do this. You're in a match. Just go out and play great tennis.' Reality is still there. I can't forget that. The reality is it happened. It will always be there."She went on to win a fourth Australian title in 1996 but has reached just two other Grand Slam finals, a far cry from the Seles we used to know that was forced to leave the game in 1993. She has had injuries from shoulder to knee and all those traumas, clearly not even half the player she once…a player who was once destined to be the greatest of them all.

:worship:

queenz of tenniz
Jun 28th, 2004, 07:08 AM
She ventures how strange it is that it should have happened to her. After all, nothing like it had ever happened to anyone else in sports. She remembers the strangeness of it, the sudden pain -- or, even more, the curiosity: what exactly is going on? And then, reflexively, she turned and in the instant before he was subdued, she saw his face just as he began to raise the dagger again.

Monica Seles was only 19 when she was stabbed 11 years ago in Hamburg, Germany.

Were it not for that terrible, awful, crazy horror, Seles might well have become the greatest female tennis player ever. In the three years leading up to the assault, she had absolutely dominated Steffi Graf, winning eight Grand Slams to her rival's two. That, of course, is why the German lunatic named Gunther Parche stabbed her. He wanted to restore his countrywoman to preeminence.

And, in point of fact, he not only succeeded, but the German courts took more pity on his insanity than on Seles' suffering. Der Spiegel even compared Parche to Samuel of The Old Testament: "The poor man owned nothing sweeter than a lamb. Gunther Parche is even poorer than the man in the bible." Parche never served a day behind bars.

Seles, meanwhile, took months to recuperate physically, and also suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome. And what might have been the cruelest cut of all? Her fellow players almost unanimously voted down a proposal to let her keep her No. 1 ranking. Only Gabriela Sabatini chose humanity over business. "Gabby is a human being," Monica says. "The rest -- they treated it like it was a sprained ankle or something."

When Seles finally did come back after 27 months, she was not the same great player. She struggled with her weight, which dulled her uncanny anticipation and shot-making ability. Worse, her father, her coach, whom she adored, lingered with cancer for years before he died in 1998. And yet Seles has stayed in the game, content to be an opponent, a quarterfinalist, a ghost of what might have been.

But why not, she asks. She simply loves playing. Tennis is a joy to her. That's all. I've never met a champion who is less competitive. Her trophies are in the garage, boxed up. Once -- imagine this -- she told me that her fondest recollections were of exhibitions because "everybody is on their best behavior there." Oh, sure, of course she wants to win. But she does not envision herself jumping the net. What is your tennis dream? I asked her once.

Shyly, laughing at herself, she said: "My dream is to be Suzanne Lenglen" -- the glamorous, graceful French star of the 1920s -- "to be like Suzanne, flying through the air, hitting a volley, both feet off the ground, flying."

Seles never complains, never argues, never alibis. Grace attends her. She is a bright figure of humility among foggy egos. She speaks to the new kids on tour, never forgetting that she too was once a silly, giggly little thing whom older players spurned. There is no one who does not like her a lot. No, she did not need to almost be killed, she did not need to lose her greatness to a madman's knife, to become the full, fine person that she is. But we can say that 10 years removed from hell, Monica Seles has won with a good, brave heart far more than she ever did with a tennis racket.

In her own simple words of praise, she's a human being..but to millions around the globe...the greatest tennis player to ever grace the sport.

queenz of tenniz
Jun 28th, 2004, 08:07 AM
Here's an old article written by a sports journalist years ago that I would like to share to everyone on why Steffi Graf will never be considered that greatest female tennis player ever.......This article was written a few days after world number one Monica Seles was violently attacked in Hamburg, Germany.


THE SCENE THAT WAS PLAYED out at the genteel, tree-lined Rothenbaum Tennis Club in Hamburg, Germany, in the evening of April 30, 1993 may have looked like pure Hitchcock -- a knife looming over a vulnerable young woman -- but it was no movie: A deranged German tennis fan, obsessed with the idea of returning the No. 1 ranking to countrywoman Steffi Graf, stabbed top-ranked Monica Seles in the back during the quarterfinals of the Citizen Cup tennis tournament. Although the 19-year-old Seles was not seriously injured, there was nothing superficial about the wound inflicted on her psyche.
During a changeover in Seles's match against 18-year-old Magdalena Maleeva of Bulgaria, the assailant stabbed Seles with a nine-inch, curved, serrated boning knife, striking her just below the left shoulder blade. Seles's attacker was later identified as Gunter Parche, 38, an unemployed lathe operator from Gorsbach, Thuringia, in eastern Germany. Parche has lived with his aunt, Irma Pieckardt, for 22 years. "He was always a quiet, reticent child," Pieckardt told a reporter. "His best friend was the TV set."
Parche was charged with attempted murder after he told Hamburg authorities that he had stabbed Seles because he "could not bear" the fact that she held the No. 1 ranking. He said he did not mean to kill Seles but only to injure her, so that the 23-year-old Graf, Seles's chief rival, could recover the No. 1 ranking Seles took from her two years ago.
Seles suffered a puncture wound half an inch deep and a slightly torn muscle just to the left of her spinal cord, according to tournament physicians. She was hospitalized and in seclusion at Hamburg's Eppendorf University Hospital for two nights before returning to the U.S. on Sunday night. Seles's recovery is expected to take at least four weeks, and she will most likely miss the French Open, the Grand Slam tournament beginning May 24, in which she was scheduled to defend the championship she won the past three years. No one could predict what long-term emotional effects the attack might have on Seles, who had become fearful and even reclusive during the past two years after receiving death threats from Croats because of her Serbian origins.
Athletes have been used as pawns by politicians, abused by mobs and taken hostage and slain by terrorists. But rarely, if ever, has an athlete of Seles's stature been so savagely attacked purely for reasons related to sport. That is what made last week's incident all the more unnerving. Who can guard against such behavior? It provided an emphatic reminder of the origin of the word fan, which comes from fanatic.
Seles was described by the handful of people who had seen her after the attack as suffering from emotional shock. Although Seles could have been released from the hospital after one night, she chose to spend one more in her private room on the ninth and uppermost floor, with Hamburg police patrolling the halls. On Saturday morning she received a visit from Graf, with whom she had an emotional meeting, though they exchanged few words. "I would say she is very, very depressed," said Graf. Although Graf went on to reach the Citizen Cup final, she was clearly drained. She lost 6-3, 6-3 to Spain's Arantxa Sanchez Vicario on Sunday.
Had the attack been politically motivated, perhaps it would have been easier to fathom. But a spokesman for the Hamburg police, Dankmar Lund, said that Parche appeared confused, if not insane, when questioned, and that the authorities had no reason to doubt the explanation he gave for the assault. Parche told authorities he had contemplated the attack for some time and saw his opportunity when Seles took a wild card into the tournament. He told police he stalked Seles as she progressed through the draw.
"We've had threats to Monica before, and to other players as well," said Gerard Smith, executive director of the Women's Tennis Association. "But this is bizarre. You can't imagine someone who would take a sport to such an absurd level."
Seles has always been wary of a physical attack. Although she is an ethnic Hungarian, Seles may well be the world's most famous Serb. Born in Novi Sad, a town in a section of the former Yugoslavia claimed by Serbs, she moved to Bradenton, Fla., when she was 12 to train at the Nick Bollettieri Tennis Academy. She now lives in Sarasota and is considering becoming a U.S. citizen. Over the past two years Seles has tried to distance herself from the conflict in her homeland. "I am an individual," she has said. "I play for Monica." Nevertheless, about 150 Serbs demonstrated in protest of the attack outside the Rothenbaum club on Saturday morning.
Because of the death threats, which included a bomb scare at Wimbledon last year, Seles is exceedingly cautious when traveling the circuit, using an assumed name at hotels, making multiple plane reservations and sometimes wearing a wig and remaining secretive about her practice schedule. Hamburg was Seles's first tournament after a long absence because of a viral infection. She said she had been bedridden during much of the 63-day hiatus, but early last week Seles was cheerful and seemed glad to be back. At the same time, she defended her furtiveness.
"I like to stay where I can just be with my family and not worry about other people, about autographs and things," she said. "Tennis is just a role. A doctor or a lawyer wouldn't let you watch him work, so why should I let people watch me practice?"
It's small comfort to Seles that the tournament security Parche eluded was regarded as better than average by WTA officials. The 10,300-seat stadium is intimate, with only a waist-high railing separating the players from a narrow aisle running along the front of the grandstand. Tournament director Gunter Sanders and police officials described security measures that included a guard from a German firm, Bekos, posted in the grandstand just behind each player.
The attack on Seles took place during a lull in the action. The Seles-Maleeva match was the last quarterfinal of the day, it was nearing 7 p.m., and most spectators had simply looked away from the players during the changeover. Seles had won the first set 6-4 and was leading 4-3 in the second after overcoming a 0-3 deficit. The guards later told police they had been occupied with keeping autograph seekers and children away from the players. One guard said he saw Parche approach, but few people actually saw him strike.
Parche, a stocky, balding man wearing a plaid shirt and jeans and carrying a green plastic bag, sidled down the aisle and paused behind Seles. Suddenly he raised the knife, grasping it with both hands. A spectator screamed, which seemed to alert Seles, who twisted and leaned slightly forward in her chair. The knife struck her back at an angle.
Seles shrieked and leaped from her chair, and then stood with a hand clasped to her neck, an expression of abject confusion on her face. Attempting to aid Seles, an unidentified man leaped over the barricade and onto the court and grabbed her by the shoulders. Seles, beginning to sob, collapsed against him, and he lowered her to the ground, where she was quickly surrounded by frantic officials, including chair umpire Stefan Voss, WTA tour director Lisa Grattan and trainer Madeleine Van Zoelen, and Seles's brother, Zoltan. In the meantime two guards subdued Parche and dragged him from the stadium in a headlock and half nelson, breaking his left arm in the process. The knife lay on the court next to Seles's chair, with blood visible on the blade.
Those nearest to Seles initially had no idea what had happened. The 10th-ranked Maleeva was oblivious to the approach of Parche until she heard Seles scream. Maleeva wandered to a corner of the court, dazed, and stayed there during the long minutes it took for a stretcher to arrive. "I feel guilty I didn't go to her," Maleeva said, "but I was so shocked I didn't know what to do."
Grattan saw Parche approach Seles. At first she thought he had tried to choke her, and then she saw Seles grab at her back. Grattan reached Seles as she sank to the ground. Grattan saw her "bleeding profusely," as she later described it, and attempted to stanch the blood with a towel. "Am I hurt? Am I bleeding?" Seles asked Grattan. "You have a small cut," Grattan calmly replied.
A moment later Van Zoelen arrived with her medical kit, and a panicked Zoltan Seles also arrived on the court. He was the only member of Monica's family to attend the match; her mother, Esther, was not feeling well, and her father, Karolj, had stayed at the hotel to care for her. Zoltan took Monica's hand, shook her legs and said, "Keep moving, keep moving."
Monica felt faint but was not disoriented, according to Grattan and Van Zoelen. She became silent once Zoltan arrived. "She was stunned," Van Zoelen said. "She was like the rest of us, saying things like, `It's impossible. How can this be?' " Finally Seles was put on a stretcher and, sitting upright, was wheeled out of the stadium, sobbing.
At week's end WTA officials had decided that Seles's withdrawal would not cost her computer-ranking points, which means the No. 1 spot will remain firmly in her grasp. But will Seles, who on Sunday night flew to Vail, Colo., and checked into the Steadman Hawkins Clinic for treatment, be motivated to play again? "That's a good question," said Grattan. "I would imagine the physical wound will be the shorter recovery period."
How could Seles sit down for a changeover anytime soon without wincing? "I think the real damage is to the psyche," said Martina Navratilova.
The attack did result in some immediate changes in security. For the semifinals on Saturday, the players' chairs were moved closer to the court, with a guard posted just behind each of them, facing the crowd. Smith said the WTA would hire a security consultant to suggest new guidelines for protecting players, both on and off the court. Possible measures range from posting guards on court to erecting a Plexiglas barrier between the players and the fans. But as Smith said, "How can you provide 100 percent protection? You can't."
After an attack like the one on Seles, every celebrity athlete suddenly seems more vulnerable. NBA benches seem nakedly open to crowds in arenas, golfers seem starkly unprotected on putting greens. A new precedent has been set. "Someone has broken through an invisible barrier," said the WTA's Smith. "It's not just a threat. Something actually happened that changes everything. Things are not the same today as they were yesterday."
Perhaps no one on the tour has had more brushes with ardent fans than Graf, who has been in the glare of the spotlight since she turned pro at 13. Four years ago one such fan followed her to a practice court near her home in Bruhl and slashed his wrists in front of her. Recently, at her second home, in Boca Raton, Fla., a fan was found guilty of trespassing after repeatedly trying to sneak past the gates of the private development where she lives.
Once the shiest of players, Graf has become almost defiant in her insistence on moving around unhindered. On the day after the attack on Seles, she insisted that players should not allow one terrifying fan to alter their behavior. "I'm not afraid," Graf said. "Tennis players have more or less been put on a stage. I think we need to be even closer to the people who watch us. You can't live with fear." During Sunday's final she insisted that the security guards stationed on court return to their normal positions in the stands.
Graf, who may become No. 1 again if Seles's absence is prolonged, urged Seles to return to play as quickly as possible. "She's a very strong-minded person," said Graf. "When she is physically ready, she should get back to the court immediately. This is something we all live with. It's the price we have to pay."

"Steffi Graf went on to win 11 more Grand Slams and became number one again while Seles who was foricibly sidelined for almost 3 years never regained the form the propelled her to tennis greatness at age 19.

Scotso
Jun 28th, 2004, 08:12 AM
For me it's a toss-up between Steffi and Martina (N). But, I couldn't resist being the 69th person to vote for Steffi.

irma
Jun 28th, 2004, 08:45 AM
It has to be Steffi and not even because of results because well pure based on that others have better stats. Maybe she didn't even play the best tennis, because that's always debatable (see I am convinced but I am a fan)

It's is because:

Steffi is retired since 5 years. She doesn't do commentating or gives a lot of interviews commentating on the players of today(a lot of retired players still get hated because of that), she doesn't play exhibitions for a lot of cash, or is in the tabloids, she isn't even in the stands anymore a lot these days (Andre is not playing anyway). She only plays in a few commercials and is a mother the rest of the time.

And still nobody still has more haters then her. Yeah they use a few eufemism between the line but they are so focusing on Steffi that it's clear that they are so totally obsessed with her and the eufemism is just an excuse. And of course because most of them have claimed that their deep dislike went way back before the eufemism anyway! (but they simply had other ones then)

Those people are making Steffi greater then ever and they don't even realize it because they think they do the opposite :lol:

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 08:58 AM
It has to be Steffi and not even because of results because well pure based on that others have better stats. Maybe she didn't even play the best tennis, because that's always debatable (see I am convinced but I am a fan)

It's is because:

Steffi is retired since 5 years. She doesn't do commentating or gives a lot of interviews commentating on the players of today(a lot of retired players still get hated because of that), she doesn't play exhibitions for a lot of cash, or is in the tabloids, she isn't even in the stands anymore a lot these days (Andre is not playing anyway). She only plays in a few commercials and is a mother the rest of the time.

And still nobody still has more haters then her. Yeah they use a few eufemism between the line but they are so focusing on Steffi that it's clear that they are so totally obsessed with her and the eufemism is just an excuse. And of course because most of them have claimed that their deep dislike went way back before the eufemism anyway! (but they simply had other ones then)

Those people are making Steffi greater then ever and they don't even realize it because they think they do the opposite :lol:

THIS POLL IS USELESS. SINCE WHEN DID STEFFI EVER BECAME THE GREATEST FEMALE TENNIS EVER? LOL THAT'S GUNTHER MENTALITY. LOL.
YOU CAN TALK TO ANY TENNIS FANS OUT THERE AND NOBODY EVER THINKS THAT WAY. LOL.
THIS THREAD ARE VOTED OVER AND OVER AGAIN BY THE SAME GRAF FANS. HOW SHAMEFUL.

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ!

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:00 AM
For me it's a toss-up between Steffi and Martina (N). But, I couldn't resist being the 69th person to vote for Steffi.


ANOTHER GRAF FANATIC. LOL :fiery:


PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ!

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:04 AM
I'm going for Steffi. I don't know everyone on the list. Seles is a great player to but I'm afraid she hasn't been able to really proove it since what happened.
:)

THAT'S FUNNY. OF COURSE, SELES WAS STABBED BY THE GERMAN LUNATIC. IT SURE DID SOME MAGIC FOR GRAF. SO WHO IS THE GREATEST? BWAHAHA

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ!!

Experimentee
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:06 AM
How can Hingis and ASV be on this poll but not the Williams sisters? :rolleyes:

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:08 AM
LOL@ some of your analysis..

1) You rate Steffi's backhand overhead above Martna's?? Wake up and smell the coffee, Martina's backhand volley was her bread and butter shot and I would have been lucky to see Graf hit 5 backhand smashes her entire career!

2)Steffi's backhand better than Martina's??? Again, being generous to Graf, the most she could hope for is an equal rating with Nav. Nav had a much more reliable topsin backhand and her slice was at least equal to Steffi's backhand slice..Martina had to hit approach shots off her backhand also which were effective, something Graf never had to do..everyone knew Graf's wekness was her backhand and just watch her losses against mOnica and Martina - both of them play her backhand all day with a LOT of success.


BEFORE THE STABBING, MONICA SELES ATE THAT DESPICABLE SLICE BACK HAND OF GRAF FOR BREAKFAST. EVER WONDERED WHY MONICA WAS #1 AND WHY STEFFI WAS #2? LOL...MARTINA STILL HAD THE MUCH BETTER BACKHAND...MARTINA THE REAL WIMBLEDON QUEEN.

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ!! :wavey: :worship: :lol:

azza
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:09 AM
We dont know who the greatest women player of all time is because tennis hasnt ended yet thus making thios Poll invalid.

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:11 AM
How can Hingis and ASV be on this poll but not the Williams sisters? :rolleyes:

WELL, IM NOT SURPRISED. LOOK WHO IS CONSIDERED THE "GREATEST" IN THE POLL. GRAF??? FOR PETE'S SAKE.....SINCE WHEN DID THAT EVER HAPPEN? THIS IS BECOMING A COMEDY.

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ! :worship:

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:18 AM
[QUOTE=Dolpho]Steffi is surely one of the greatest! I am quite surprised that Navratilova is not getting that close to steffi in the votes. I was expecting a close one here.
THE SAME GRAF FANS VOTING OVER AND OVER AGAIN....WELL, TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR USER ID HERE IS AS EASY AS 123.

PATHETIC ISNT IT? LOL. :bounce:

PRINCESS SERENA IS THE GREATEST!

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:21 AM
:bounce: We dont know who the greatest women player of all time is because tennis hasnt ended yet thus making thios Poll invalid.


RIGHT ON TARGET.

PRINCESS SERENA IS THE GREATEST! :bounce:

WILLIAMSES
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:24 AM
My opinion:

Navratilova - Statistically the greatest over all player of all time

Graf - Greatest over all singles player of all time

Seles - Greatest performances of all time (Aussie 93, French 92)


...I had to vote for Martina.


I HAVE TO GIVE IT TO MARTINA NAVRATILOVA. HANDS DOWN AGAINST GRAF.

BUT ONLY FOR NOW. PRINCESS SERENA WILL TAKE OVER NAVRATILOVA'S PLACE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

PRINCESS SERENA NOW A NAME......SOON A LEGEND! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Steff_forever
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:36 AM
Stephanie Maria Graf

bandabou
Jun 28th, 2004, 10:10 AM
still don´t understand what Steffi meant with " That´s the price we all have to pay." in the article?! She meant the stabbing was the price for Monica?! :confused:

BlinX
Jun 28th, 2004, 06:47 PM
We dont know who the greatest women player of all time is because tennis hasnt ended yet thus making thios Poll invalid.

smartass ;) :rolleyes: :lol:

Calimero377
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Ill go for Martina Navratilova but you are very right, it should have been Monica Seles if not for the tragedy in Hamburg.

Steffi Graf is one of the greats but certainly far from the greatest knowing that incident in Hamburg which brought the down the career of world number one Monica Seles who won a mindboggling 8 Slams in 1993 while playing less than 20 GS tournaments than the german ace.

Steffi's career will forever be tainted by the Seles Tragedy.


Don' think so.
Everybody knows
that Seles won tons of slams due to Steffi's slump in 90/92,
that Seles lost 3 of 5 matches against Steffi even when she - Monica - was #1,
that Seles is 5-10 head-to-head against Steffi,
that Seles never could beat Steffi indoors, on grass or on hardcourt,
that Seles never won Wimbledon (most prestigious slam),
that Seles was thrashed twice by Steffi in Wimbledon,
that Seles won only 1 of her last 20 slams (Steffi 11).

:p

Calimero377
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:45 PM
.... In the three years leading up to the assault, she had absolutely dominated Steffi Graf,
...
Gunther Parche is even poorer than the man in the bible." Parche never served a day behind bars.

Seles, meanwhile, took months to recuperate physically, and also suffered post-traumatic stress syndrome. And what might have been the cruelest cut of all? Her fellow players almost unanimously voted down a proposal to let her keep her No. 1 ranking.
......
She struggled with her weight, which dulled her uncanny anticipation and shot-making ability. Worse, her father, her coach, whom she adored, lingered with cancer for years before he died in 1998. ...


Seles never dominated Graf. Even as #1 Seles lost 3 out of 5 matches against her.

Parche served 3 months behind bars. not much, but ....

Graf at least never voted against letting keep Seles's #1 ranking.

Monica would have struggled anyway with her weight, would have got her shoulder injury anyway (perhaps earlier, 1994 maybe?), her father would have died anyway.
All this has nothing to do with the stabbing.

Calimero377
Jun 28th, 2004, 09:55 PM
.....

"Steffi Graf went on to win 11 more Grand Slams and became number one again while Seles who was foricibly sidelined for almost 3 years never regained the form the propelled her to tennis greatness at age 19.


Seles choose not to play for 2 years and 3 months.
Seles returned as a 21-year old. She played great at her first three tournaments, losing not a single set at Canadian Open and at US Open - until USO final, were she lost to a Graf who was way better than in 90/92 (Seles never had beaten Graf on hardcourts anyway). In Graf's absence due to injury Seles won AO 1996 easily. From 1996 on Seles was haunted by injuries and the terminal illness of her father.
Graf won exactly 6 slams of her 22 during Seles's absence (27 %), Seles 2 of her 9 slams in Graf's absence (22 %). No big difference.
Seles not being as good as the was as a 19-year-old after her 22nd birthday is nothing uncommon. Austin, Hingis, Sabatini, V. Williams come to mind.
Weight problems are nothing uncommon either for girls who get older.

Calimero377
Jun 28th, 2004, 10:00 PM
THAT'S FUNNY. OF COURSE, SELES WAS STABBED BY THE GERMAN LUNATIC. IT SURE DID SOME MAGIC FOR GRAF. SO WHO IS THE GREATEST? BWAHAHA

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ!!



Seles had a 1-cm stab wound.
She returned to professional tennis after 2 years as a 21-year-old.
She won only 1 slam after that. 1 slam in 9 years.
Graf won 6 of her 22 slams in Seles's absence due to stabbing.
Seles won 2 of her 9 slams in Graf's absence due to injuries.

:wavey:

Calimero377
Jun 28th, 2004, 10:09 PM
BEFORE THE STABBING, MONICA SELES ATE THAT DESPICABLE SLICE BACK HAND OF GRAF FOR BREAKFAST. EVER WONDERED WHY MONICA WAS #1 AND WHY STEFFI WAS #2? LOL...MARTINA STILL HAD THE MUCH BETTER BACKHAND...MARTINA THE REAL WIMBLEDON QUEEN.

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ!! :wavey: :worship: :lol:


Steffi had some difficulties with Seles on Australian ReboundAce and on clay courts.
On grass, indoors and on hardcourts Seles never even won a set against Graf before the stabbing (0-8 sets).
We all saw how Seles "ate" Steffi's backhand at the most prestigious tournament in the world, Wimbledon. They played 2 matches there, 4 sets.
The results were 6-0, 6-1, 6-2, 6-1 - all in Steffi's favour of course.

Martina N. had won 6 consecutive Wimbledons when she ran into Steffi Graf there in 1988. Graf completely destroyed her, breaking Martina in each of her last 7 service games. Martina won exactly 1 of the last 13 games played.

Steffi is by far the greatest player ever. :worship: :worship:

Calimero377
Jun 28th, 2004, 10:14 PM
still don´t understand what Steffi meant with " That´s the price we all have to pay." in the article?! She meant the stabbing was the price for Monica?! :confused:


The price was to be haunted by lunatics, so Graf.
A lunatic "fan" of hers once send her a glass with poisoned jam.
That was no fun for her either, believe me ....

I love Mary
Jun 28th, 2004, 10:14 PM
There's ASanchez but not 5 winner Grand Slam Serena? :confused: :confused:

However i say Mary! :kiss: :kiss:

ttaM
Jun 28th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Since tennis is both singles and doubles, my vote goes to Martina Navratilova.

davenport_1
Jun 28th, 2004, 10:54 PM
yay! It's an argument waiting to already happen!

Grachka
Jun 28th, 2004, 11:11 PM
I don't know why people are crying about the Williams not included in the list, it is my belief that when put in the same era, most of these women could run rings around them.

When not looking at statistics, I would love to say Jana Novotna, but the statistics don't back that up at all. She was the player that I loved to watch the most and when she played to her potential she could beat anyone at all.

I voted for Chris Evert, edging out Graf and Nav. Some of those winning streaks were brilliant.

chris whiteside
Jun 29th, 2004, 05:51 AM
I don't know why people are crying about the Williams not included in the list, it is my belief that when put in the same era, most of these women could run rings around them.

When not looking at statistics, I would love to say Jana Novotna, but the statistics don't back that up at all. She was the player that I loved to watch the most and when she played to her potential she could beat anyone at all.

I voted for Chris Evert, edging out Graf and Nav. Some of those winning streaks were brilliant.


Fair enough comment about Jana Novotna but why is Virginia Wade in your list?

WILLIAMSES
Jun 29th, 2004, 07:01 AM
Don' think so.
Everybody knows
that Seles won tons of slams due to Steffi's slump in 90/92,
that Seles lost 3 of 5 matches against Steffi even when she - Monica - was #1,
that Seles is 5-10 head-to-head against Steffi,
that Seles never could beat Steffi indoors, on grass or on hardcourt,
that Seles never won Wimbledon (most prestigious slam),
that Seles was thrashed twice by Steffi in Wimbledon,
that Seles won only 1 of her last 20 slams (Steffi 11).

:p

DONT THINK SO? EVERYBODY KNOW???SINCE WHEN? LIKE WHO? KNOW, ONLY THE GRAF LUNATICS THINK THAT WAY--THAT "PARCHE" MENTALITY!!!SELES HAD A 3-1 ADVANTAGE IN GRAND SLAM FINALS AGAINST GRAF. WITH SELES WINNING THE LAST TWO ENCOUNTERS PRIOR TO THE STABBING.
MONICA WAS RANKED NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD SINCE MARCH OF 1991 WHILE YOUR PRECIOUS STEFFI WAS NUMBER TWO....AGAIN NUMBER TWO.
THE HEAD TO HEAD BETWEEN GRAF AND SELES WAS 6-4 BEFORE THE STABBING BUT HALF OF THOSE WINS WERE AGAINST A 15 YEAR OLD SELES AND TOW OF THOSE WERE OF LESSER IMPORTANT TOURNAMENTS. BY 1993, SELES WAS VIRTUALLY IN COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE WOMEN'S LEAVING THE GERMAN AND THE REST OF THE PACK SCRAMBLING FOR SCRAPS AT THE BOTTOM.

STEFFI COULD NEVER LIVED UP TO THE CHALLENGE TO PLAY AGAINST MONICA IN THE FINALS BECAUSE SHE WAS BADLY LOSING TO "PLAYERS" THAT MONICA EASILY VANQUISHED. WELL, STEFFI " THE QUEEN OF EXCUSES" WAS IN A SLUMP??? LOL . IN REALITY, THE GERMAN WAS SIMPLY NO MATCHED FOR SELES. THE NUMBERS DURING THOSE YEARS CAN BE VERY WELL SPEAK FOR ITSELF.

WINBLEDON, HMM MONICA MADE HER ONLY "2ND APPEARANCE" AT THE ALL ENGLAND CLUB IN 1992...THEN REACH THE FINALS BEATING THE GREATEST GRASSCOURT EVER, MARTINA NAVRATILOVA ALONG THE WAY. IF NOT FOR THE GRUNT BRUHAHA, SHE COULD HAVE WON IT AS WELL LIKE THE REST OF THE SLAMS THAT YEAR. POOR STEFFI, HER NUMBERS AT THE LAST GRAND SLAM SHE HAD WERE SURELY NUMBERED.

BY 1993, TOP RANKED MONICA WON THE AUSTRALIAN OPEN AGAINST SECOND RANKED GRAF. IN THIS MATCH, POOR STEFFI HAS TO BE RAN RUGGED AROUND THE COURT FROM SIDE TO SIDE TO SIDE, CONSTANTLY OVERPOWERED AND OUTPLAYED......IN FACT, AT TIMES SUCH A PITY SIGHT TO SEE STEFFI LOOK SO HOPELESS AND CONFUSED. THIS MATCH ALSO CLEARLY HIGHLIGHTED WHY MONICA WAS NUMBER ONE AND STEFFI WAS CONSTANTLY THE "BRIDESMAID".

MANY IN THE TENNIS WORLD WERE IN FACT, GETTING BORED AS THIS SUPPOSED COMPELLING RIVALRY WAS VERY LOPSIDED WITH SELES WINNING 8 SLAMS AND MOST OF THE TOP TIER TOURNAMENTS THAT MATTERED WHILE GRAF HAD TO SETTLE FOR A HUMILIATING TWO SLAMS AND WINNING ONLY A HANDFUL OF THE LESSER TOURNAMENTS THAT NEVER REALLY MATTERED.

THE FACT WAS THAT MONICA SELES WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME WHEN SHE WAS STABBED. AND STEFFI ONLY BECAME NUMBER AGAIN AND WON ALL THOSE HOLLOW GRAND SLAMS DURING THE "STEFFI AND THE DWARFS PERIOD" BECAUSE MONICA SELES WAS STABBED. EVEN WHEN MONICA SELES CAME BACK IN 1995, SHE WAS NEVER THE SAME PLAYER SHE ONCE WAS BECAUSE OF THE DESPICABLE EVIL COMMITTED BY THE LUNATIC GRAF FAN.

THE PSYCHOTIC PARCHE ACCOMPLISHED WHAT HE WANTED. STEFFI WAS BACK TO GLORY AGAIN. BUT, NUMBERS DONT' MEAN ANTHING ESPECIALLY WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT IT WAS HIGHLY ATTRIBUTED TO THE STABBING OF SELES. NOBODY IN THE TENNIS WORLD OR IN THIS WORLD FOR THAT MATTER REALLY BELIEVES WHAT SOME FEW GRAF FANATICS IN THIS BOARD WANTS TO BELIEVE. TWISTED FACTS! GRAF THE GREATEST? HARDLY. NOT EVEN CLOSE. THE SELES TRAGEDY IN GERMAN HAS FOREVER TAINTED GRAF'S SO CALLED GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENTS AFTER 1993. SADLY, IT BACKFIRED! AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

:kiss: PRINCESS SERENA ROCKS!

WILLIAMSES
Jun 29th, 2004, 07:09 AM
The price was to be haunted by lunatics, so Graf.
A lunatic "fan" of hers once send her a glass with poisoned jam.
That was no fun for her either, believe me ....

BALONEY! HOW CAN THE COLD ROBOTIC GRAF REALLY KNOW! DOES HE REALLY KNOW? SHE DOES NOT EVEN KNOW HOW TO BEAT MONICA SELES ON THE COURT..... SHE WAS NOT THE ONE STABBED BY A PSYCHOTIC FAN ON THE TENNIS COURT SO HOW COULD SHE REALLY KNOW? RIGHT! AGAIN BALONEY!

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ! :bounce:

WILLIAMSES
Jun 29th, 2004, 07:14 AM
Since tennis is both singles and doubles, my vote goes to Martina Navratilova.

RIGHT ANSWER. WITH MARGARET COURT COMING IN SECOND THEN CHRIS EVERT COMING IN THIRD.

AT LEAST THESE PLAYERS' GREAT ACCOMPLSHMENTS ARE NEVER "QUESTIONABLE"! "NO DOUBTS LIGERING"..... :lol:

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ!!!!

Andy T
Jun 29th, 2004, 07:39 AM
I voted for Martina cos I believe she could do more with the ball than any other woman tennis player I've seen. She had the most complete range of shots at her disposal of all the greats. However, it is an impossible question to answer objectively and for me Graf, Evert, Court and Navratilova all belong in the highest group of greats, with King and Seles (and Serena, but her career's not over yet) just below, followed by Goolagong, Bueno and Hingis to round out my great ten. This only covers the last 45 years as I have never seen any real footage of the players before Bueno.

Sally Struthers
Jun 29th, 2004, 07:41 AM
well if you ask me Steffi was the greatest singles player ever but Martina was a better overall player if you add in doubles.

WILLIAMSES
Jun 29th, 2004, 08:51 AM
I voted for Martina cos I believe she could do more with the ball than any other woman tennis player I've seen. She had the most complete range of shots at her disposal of all the greats. However, it is an impossible question to answer objectively and for me Graf, Evert, Court and Navratilova all belong in the highest group of greats, with King and Seles (and Serena, but her career's not over yet) just below, followed by Goolagong, Bueno and Hingis to round out my great ten. This only covers the last 45 years as I have never seen any real footage of the players before Bueno.

ANOTHER GRAF FANATIC WITH A NEW NAME...ITS VERY OBVIOUS!

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ :bounce:

Andy T
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:24 AM
ANOTHER GRAF FANATIC WITH A NEW NAME...ITS VERY OBVIOUS!

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ :bounce:

I DON'T think so! Steffi is one of the greatest of the greats without question but for me she falls into a similar category to Evert and Seles in that neither was a "complete" tennis player in the way Navratilova and Court were. That's what makes clashes between champions great, though: each one had her strengths and weaknesses.

For pure artistry, I'd pick Goolagong, for discipline, it has to be Evert, for athleticism it'd be Graf, and for technical skill Navratilova.

queenz of tenniz
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:28 AM
I DON'T think so! Steffi is one of the greatest of the greats without question but for me she falls into a similar category to Evert and Seles in that neither was a "complete" tennis player in the way Navratilova and Court were. That's what makes clashes between champions great, though: each one had her strengths and weaknesses.

For pure artistry, I'd pick Goolagong, for discipline, it has to be Evert, for athleticism it'd be Graf, and for technical skill Navratilova.

Steffi Graf will never be the greatest! That's a fact. Then we might as well add Gunther P. to be among the greatest. Well, he was successful in bringing down world number one Monica Seles on the tennis court.

How pathetic.

BlinX
Jun 29th, 2004, 01:47 PM
bump

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:14 PM
DONT THINK SO? EVERYBODY KNOW???SINCE WHEN? LIKE WHO? KNOW, ONLY THE GRAF LUNATICS THINK THAT WAY--THAT "PARCHE" MENTALITY!!!SELES HAD A 3-1 ADVANTAGE IN GRAND SLAM FINALS AGAINST GRAF. WITH SELES WINNING THE LAST TWO ENCOUNTERS PRIOR TO THE STABBING.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]


I wouldn't call a 2-6, 1-6 at Wimbledon exactly "winning" .....


[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]MONICA WAS RANKED NUMBER ONE IN THE WORLD SINCE MARCH OF 1991 WHILE YOUR PRECIOUS STEFFI WAS NUMBER TWO....AGAIN NUMBER TWO. [QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

Have a look in the history books who was #1 prior to US Open 1991 .....

[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]THE HEAD TO HEAD BETWEEN GRAF AND SELES WAS 6-4 BEFORE THE STABBING BUT HALF OF THOSE WINS WERE AGAINST A 15 YEAR OLD SELES AND TOW OF THOSE WERE OF LESSER IMPORTANT TOURNAMENTS. BY 1993, SELES WAS VIRTUALLY IN COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE WOMEN'S LEAVING THE GERMAN AND THE REST OF THE PACK SCRAMBLING FOR SCRAPS AT THE BOTTOM.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]


What about "Graf won 3 out of 5 matches against a #1 Seles" our Seles fanatic doesn't understand?

[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]STEFFI COULD NEVER LIVED UP TO THE CHALLENGE TO PLAY AGAINST MONICA IN THE FINALS BECAUSE SHE WAS BADLY LOSING TO "PLAYERS" THAT MONICA EASILY VANQUISHED. [QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

You have a point here.
But that stopped in 1993. Steffi reached 12 of 14 slam finals in 93/96. She came out of her slump in 1993 never losing to eg. Novotna or Sabatini again (as she did often before 1993).



[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]WELL, STEFFI " THE QUEEN OF EXCUSES" WAS IN A SLUMP??? LOL . IN REALITY, THE GERMAN WAS SIMPLY NO MATCHED FOR SELES. THE NUMBERS DURING THOSE YEARS CAN BE VERY WELL SPEAK FOR ITSELF.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]


As you said, Graf lost often before slam finals to other players in 90/92. But that ended in 93.

[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]WINBLEDON, HMM MONICA MADE HER ONLY "2ND APPEARANCE" AT THE ALL ENGLAND CLUB IN 1992...[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

She was beaten like a drum by Steffi in 89 (0-6, 1-6) and lost to Studenikova in 90 .......


[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]THEN REACH THE FINALS BEATING THE GREATEST GRASSCOURT EVER, MARTINA NAVRATILOVA ALONG THE WAY.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

Who was, what, 35 years old then ....
4 years earlier Graf humiliated Martina, breaking her in the last 7 consecutive service games. Monica only had a squeaker win in 1992 ....


[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]IF NOT FOR THE GRUNT BRUHAHA, SHE COULD HAVE WON IT AS WELL LIKE THE REST OF THE SLAMS THAT YEAR. POOR STEFFI, HER NUMBERS AT THE LAST GRAND SLAM SHE HAD WERE SURELY NUMBERED.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]


"Oh, one last question: Exactly how many Wimbledon titles has, did, or will Seles win? Was that 'zero' I heard? it sure was. Enough said."
(Stephen Thomas, FOXSports.com, August 13, 1999)


[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]BY 1993, TOP RANKED MONICA WON THE AUSTRALIAN OPEN AGAINST SECOND RANKED GRAF. IN THIS MATCH, POOR STEFFI HAS TO BE RAN RUGGED AROUND THE COURT FROM SIDE TO SIDE TO SIDE, CONSTANTLY OVERPOWERED AND OUTPLAYED......IN FACT, AT TIMES SUCH A PITY SIGHT TO SEE STEFFI LOOK SO HOPELESS AND CONFUSED. THIS MATCH ALSO CLEARLY HIGHLIGHTED WHY MONICA WAS NUMBER ONE AND STEFFI WAS CONSTANTLY THE "BRIDESMAID".[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

What about "Seles made 86 points against Graf's 78 points" and "ReboundAce was Monica's best and Steffi's worst surface" dumbo doesn't understand?

[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]MANY IN THE TENNIS WORLD WERE IN FACT, GETTING BORED AS THIS SUPPOSED COMPELLING RIVALRY WAS VERY LOPSIDED WITH SELES WINNING 8 SLAMS AND MOST OF THE TOP TIER TOURNAMENTS THAT MATTERED WHILE GRAF HAD TO SETTLE FOR A HUMILIATING TWO SLAMS AND WINNING ONLY A HANDFUL OF THE LESSER TOURNAMENTS THAT NEVER REALLY MATTERED.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

THREE slams for Graf. If you count FO 90 for Seles, I count AO 90 for Graf.

[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]THE FACT WAS THAT MONICA SELES WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME WHEN SHE WAS STABBED. AND STEFFI ONLY BECAME NUMBER AGAIN AND WON ALL THOSE HOLLOW GRAND SLAMS DURING THE "STEFFI AND THE DWARFS PERIOD" BECAUSE MONICA SELES WAS STABBED. EVEN WHEN MONICA SELES CAME BACK IN 1995, SHE WAS NEVER THE SAME PLAYER SHE ONCE WAS BECAUSE OF THE DESPICABLE EVIL COMMITTED BY THE LUNATIC GRAF FAN.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

Wrong.
Graf of 95 & 96 was far better than Graf of 91 &92.
Proof being that Graf lost tons of matches against the like of Sabatini & Novotna in 91 & 92 and even had worse results against aging Navratilova in 91 & 92 than in 88 & 89, LOL!

[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]THE PSYCHOTIC PARCHE ACCOMPLISHED WHAT HE WANTED. STEFFI WAS BACK TO GLORY AGAIN. BUT, NUMBERS DONT' MEAN ANTHING ESPECIALLY WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT IT WAS HIGHLY ATTRIBUTED TO THE STABBING OF SELES. NOBODY IN THE TENNIS WORLD OR IN THIS WORLD FOR THAT MATTER REALLY BELIEVES WHAT SOME FEW GRAF FANATICS IN THIS BOARD WANTS TO BELIEVE. TWISTED FACTS! GRAF THE GREATEST? HARDLY. NOT EVEN CLOSE. THE SELES TRAGEDY IN GERMAN HAS FOREVER TAINTED GRAF'S SO CALLED GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENTS AFTER 1993. SADLY, IT BACKFIRED! AND RIGHTFULLY SO.[QUOTE=WILLIAMSES]

Perhaps in your parallel universe.
In this universe Graf has won the majority of "best ever" polls ......

:kiss: PRINCESS SERENA ROCKS!

Graf of 88 & 89 would have beaten your Serena like a drum.

:lol:

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:20 PM
BALONEY! HOW CAN THE COLD ROBOTIC GRAF REALLY KNOW! DOES HE REALLY KNOW? SHE DOES NOT EVEN KNOW HOW TO BEAT MONICA SELES ON THE COURT..... SHE WAS NOT THE ONE STABBED BY A PSYCHOTIC FAN ON THE TENNIS COURT SO HOW COULD SHE REALLY KNOW? RIGHT! AGAIN BALONEY!

PRINCESS SERENA RULEZ! :bounce:


Graf could have paused for 2 years after that incident (poisoned jam) like Seles did after receiving a 1 cm deep stab wound. But she didn't. That's the stuff REAL champions are made of ....

(Not knowing to beat MS on the court)
Graf beat Seles 6-0, 6-1 and 6-2, 6-1 at the MOST prestigious tournament of them all.
Graf beat Seles 3 times out of 5 matches when Seles was #1.
:p

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Steffi Graf will never be the greatest! That's a fact. Then we might as well add Gunther P. to be among the greatest. Well, he was successful in bringing down world number one Monica Seles on the tennis court.

How pathetic.


Don' think so.

Seles would have had her weight problems anyway.
If, I mean IF, Seles had backed up her 91/92 wins after 95 or especially after 96 (when GRAF was sidelined for a change ...) you might be right when discussing Monica being great. But she blew it. So she is only "second tier" when we discuss who might be the greatest ever.

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Graf could have paused for 2 years after that incident (poisoned jam) like Seles did after receiving a 1 cm deep stab wound. But she didn't. That's the stuff REAL champions are made of ....

(Not knowing to beat MS on the court)
Graf beat Seles 6-0, 6-1 and 6-2, 6-1 at the MOST prestigious tournament of them all.
Graf beat Seles 3 times out of 5 matches when Seles was #1.
:p



There you go with this again....don´t you think it was bad enough it happened where it happened, in name of who it happened, by whom it happened... now you come here and say Monica isn´t a REAL champion?!

Shame on you!!

chris whiteside
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:38 PM
Don' think so.

Seles would have had her weight problems anyway.
If, I mean IF, Seles had backed up her 91/92 wins after 95 or especially after 96 (when GRAF was sidelined for a change ...) you might be right when discussing Monica being great. But she blew it. So she is only "second tier" when we discuss who might be the greatest ever.


On achievements I would have to agree that Steffi would have the edge on Monica because you cannot know what would have happened had that tragedy not occurred. Personally I think the stats would have been different but we'll never know.

However I do think you are being very dismissive of the stabbing. I am in no way diminishing the personal problems Graf had but I don't think they can in any way be compared to the stabbing assault. The physchological problems from this would have remained with Seles in every subsequent match she played. She could never have been the same player again.

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:46 PM
well said chris....calimero wanna compare a daddy not paying taxes with a stabbing on a tenniscourt during a change-over.

Don´t you know what that can do to a player?! During every changeover, everytime she sits down, someone taps on the shoulder from behind, etc...

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:50 PM
There you go with this again....don´t you think it was bad enough it happened where it happened, in name of who it happened, by whom it happened... now you come here and say Monica isn´t a REAL champion?!

Shame on you!!


Would you feel better if it had happened in the USA and the perpetrator had been an U.S. citizen? Weird .....

(Monica no real champion):
Not a GREAT champion.
She won her last slam just after her 22nd birthday - but nothing for the next 8 years. Due to the stabbing? Come on .....
I know, you can't stand me saying this, but IMO Seles should have returned to the game FAR earlier that in August of 1995. Being attacked on a tennis court with a knife is really bad, but 27 months ....

There are other people who have suffered far worse than a minor stabbing wound and nevertheless have returned far earlier to their jobs.

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:58 PM
Would you feel better if it had happened in the USA and the perpetrator had been an U.S. citizen? Weird .....

(Monica no real champion):
Not a GREAT champion.
She won her last slam just after her 22nd birthday - but nothing for the next 8 years. Due to the stabbing? Come on .....
I know, you can't stand me saying this, but IMO Seles should have returned to the game FAR earlier that in August of 1995. Being attacked on a tennis court with a knife is really bad, but 27 months ....

There are other people who have suffered far worse than a minor stabbing wound and nevertheless have returned far earlier to their jobs.


Tennis isn´t just physical, it is mental as well.....I know plenty examples of security-guards who wake-up screaming in the night thinking of the time they have been victims of an assault....mentally it takes a toll on you...you think it´s easy for Monica to ever sitdown after a changeover again?!

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2004, 09:59 PM
Would you feel better if it had happened in the USA and the perpetrator had been an U.S. citizen? Weird .....

(Monica no real champion):
Not a GREAT champion.
She won her last slam just after her 22nd birthday - but nothing for the next 8 years. Due to the stabbing? Come on .....
I know, you can't stand me saying this, but IMO Seles should have returned to the game FAR earlier that in August of 1995. Being attacked on a tennis court with a knife is really bad, but 27 months ....

There are other people who have suffered far worse than a minor stabbing wound and nevertheless have returned far earlier to their jobs.


No, I wouldn´t feel better....but seeing that I come from the same country as the offender, I wouldn´t go blablaing about Monica overdramatising and stuff either.

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:02 PM
On achievements I would have to agree that Steffi would have the edge on Monica because you cannot know what would have happened had that tragedy not occurred. Personally I think the stats would have been different but we'll never know.

However I do think you are being very dismissive of the stabbing. I am in no way diminishing the personal problems Graf had but I don't think they can in any way be compared to the stabbing assault. The physchological problems from this would have remained with Seles in every subsequent match she played. She could never have been the same player again.


(Stats different): Yes. Graf would perhaps won 2 or so slams less and Seles 4 or so slams more. But Seles would have had to win them in the first place.

But the stats would have been different as well if Graf's dad had been a more stable character. Woulda coulda .....

(Dismissive of the stabbing):
"Could never have been ...."? Why that? Do you think other persons don't have to suffer tragedies?
Seles would have had to deal with a tougher Graf in 93/96 anyway, with a Hingis in 97/99 anyway, would have gained weight anyway, would have had her injuries (shoulder etc.) anyway, would have seen her father dying anyway etc. ....

I'm not "dismissive". But I get tired of the Seles "deification" from some (especially US) fanatics who in contrast think Graf had a joy ride in her tennis life. Do you really think Seles would have been able to win 4 slams with her father being in jail? Well, Graf did ...

:wavey:

Hiko
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:04 PM
What? No Mirjana Lucic?

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:07 PM
well said chris....calimero wanna compare a daddy not paying taxes with a stabbing on a tenniscourt during a change-over.

Don´t you know what that can do to a player?! During every changeover, everytime she sits down, someone taps on the shoulder from behind, etc...


I had a nearly fatal car crash some years ago. For some seconds I thought "This is it ..."

I bought a new car at once and am happily driving around ever since (although I was nervous in the beginning and afraid of big Mercedes cars trying to overtake me at first .....). Don't tell me it's THAT different.

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:07 PM
(Stats different): Yes. Graf would perhaps won 2 or so slams less and Seles 4 or so slams more. But Seles would have had to win them in the first place.

But the stats would have been different as well if Graf's dad had been a more stable character. Woulda coulda .....

(Dismissive of the stabbing):
"Could never have been ...."? Why that? Do you think other persons don't have to suffer tragedies?
Seles would have had to deal with a tougher Graf in 93/96 anyway, with a Hingis in 97/99 anyway, would have gained weight anyway, would have had her injuries (shoulder etc.) anyway, would have seen her father dying anyway etc. ....

I'm not "dismissive". But I get tired of the Seles "deification" from some (especially US) fanatics who in contrast think Graf had a joy ride in her tennis life. Do you really think Seles would have been able to win 4 slams with her father being in jail? Well, Graf did ...

:wavey:


Just a shame that Gunther couldn´t let us find out in the proper way....all those questions should have been answered on the court. Let the tennisfans find out how Seles would have dealt with a reborn Steffi, with an up-and-comming Martina...why couldn´t he?!

would Steffi have won 4 slams in a row while recovering from a stabwound?!

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Tennis isn´t just physical, it is mental as well....!


You need not tell that a 1990/91 Graf or a 1995/96 Graf.
She knows .....

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:11 PM
No, I wouldn´t feel better....but seeing that I come from the same country as the offender, I wouldn´t go blablaing about Monica overdramatising and stuff either.


What has coming from the same country have to do with it?
I simply don't get it ..... :confused:

chris whiteside
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:24 PM
(Stats different): Yes. Graf would perhaps won 2 or so slams less and Seles 4 or so slams more. But Seles would have had to win them in the first place.

But the stats would have been different as well if Graf's dad had been a more stable character. Woulda coulda .....

(Dismissive of the stabbing):
"Could never have been ...."? Why that? Do you think other persons don't have to suffer tragedies?
Seles would have had to deal with a tougher Graf in 93/96 anyway, with a Hingis in 97/99 anyway, would have gained weight anyway, would have had her injuries (shoulder etc.) anyway, would have seen her father dying anyway etc. ....

I'm not "dismissive". But I get tired of the Seles "deification" from some (especially US) fanatics who in contrast think Graf had a joy ride in her tennis life. Do you really think Seles would have been able to win 4 slams with her father being in jail? Well, Graf did ...

:wavey:



As you say woulda coulda. Who knows?

However, we'll just have to agree to differ. I'm sorry but I just don't agree that someone whose father goes to jail etc could suffer the same stress as a physical assault. I got attacked when I was young by a gang and I still have horrors over it many years later and I do believe it's possible Seles could have won 4 Slams with her father in jail but again only a personal opinion.

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Just a shame that Gunther couldn´t let us find out in the proper way....all those questions should have been answered on the court. Let the tennisfans find out how Seles would have dealt with a reborn Steffi, with an up-and-comming Martina...why couldn´t he?!

would Steffi have won 4 slams in a row while recovering from a stabwound?!


Steffi wouldn't have played until her physical recovery.
But I simply can't imagine her not playing for more than 2 years. With all the support and affection of her loved ones and her fans (as Seles had no doubt). And with her, Steffi's, never-say-die attitude.


Being investigated for tax evasion, seeing her dad thrown into prison are PRESENT dangers/tragedies. And Steffi was criticized and ridiculed publicly by many for more than a year in that case. It was an ordeal for her without any doubt.
The stabbing (probably never intended to be deadly), as bad as it was, was over on April 30th, 1993. Seles had to deal with bad memories, understandably.

IF you can win 4 slams as a young girl when your dad is in prison for tax evasion, THEN you can return to tennis some months (and not years!) after receiving a 1 cm stab injury ....

BTW, I only bring up this, when Selesians try to boost Seles's prospects for 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 ..... to the sky. The facts - repeated ad nauseam over the years - simply don't support this.

Calimero377
Jun 29th, 2004, 10:41 PM
As you say woulda coulda. Who knows?

However, we'll just have to agree to differ. I'm sorry but I just don't agree that someone whose father goes to jail etc could suffer the same stress as a physical assault. I got attacked when I was young by a gang and I still have horrors over it many years later and I do believe it's possible Seles could have won 4 Slams with her father in jail but again only a personal opinion.


It is not the jail itsself, it's the scandal per se. This was the most publicized tax evasion case in Germany EVER, the "crime of the century" taxwise ....
People were talking whether Steffi herself would be arrested any time. Every detail of her father drinking and marital problems was discussed in the open. Her whole life and career seemed to have gone into pieces. A person who needs 27 months to recover psychologically from a minor stab attack would have retired immediately ......

But we can agree perhaps that we all were robbed of some great tennis matches. But IMO, Seles could have proven her point at leat after 1995 (she was 21 years when she returned). She simply didn't do this. And I can't stand this cheap "never again the same player due to stabbing attack when 19 years old" excuse any more!

:fiery: ;)

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2004, 11:40 PM
Steffi wouldn't have played until her physical recovery.
But I simply can't imagine her not playing for more than 2 years. With all the support and affection of her loved ones and her fans (as Seles had no doubt). And with her, Steffi's, never-say-die attitude.


Being investigated for tax evasion, seeing her dad thrown into prison are PRESENT dangers/tragedies. And Steffi was criticized and ridiculed publicly by many for more than a year in that case. It was an ordeal for her without any doubt.
The stabbing (probably never intended to be deadly), as bad as it was, was over on April 30th, 1993. Seles had to deal with bad memories, understandably.

IF you can win 4 slams as a young girl when your dad is in prison for tax evasion, THEN you can return to tennis some months (and not years!) after receiving a 1 cm stab injury ....

BTW, I only bring up this, when Selesians try to boost Seles's prospects for 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 ..... to the sky. The facts - repeated ad nauseam over the years - simply don't support this.


Now answer this question: If the stabbing didn´t happen and then those scandals came up...do u think steffi would have still won those 4 slams or have still mantained motivation if Monica kept beating her time after time?!

It´s easier to stay motivated when you know that the competition ain´t all that.

And the stabbing is relevant, because at least the 12 months directly after it would have had a great influence on the rest of the course of the careers of many players.

~ The Leopard ~
Jun 30th, 2004, 01:18 AM
I can see the arguments for Navratilova and Graf, but how can you vote for any of the others above Court?? :scratch:

chris whiteside
Jun 30th, 2004, 07:45 AM
A person who needs 27 months to recover psychologically from a minor stab attack would have retired immediately ......

But we can agree perhaps that we all were robbed of some great tennis matches. But IMO, Seles could have proven her point at leat after 1995 (she was 21 years when she returned). She simply didn't do this. And I can't stand this cheap "never again the same player due to stabbing attack when 19 years old" excuse any more!

:fiery: ;)

We have different views on how the stabbing affected Seles. What more can I say re this.

I agree with your previous point that it would have been better for Seles to return to Tennis far sooner. The fact that it took her 27 months can only suggest how deep the physchological scars were. I think it is a tremendous tribute to her that she even returned at all and achieved a certain level of success.

Andy T
Jun 30th, 2004, 11:36 AM
We have different views on how the stabbing affected Seles. What more can I say re this.

I agree with your previous point that it would have been better for Seles to return to Tennis far sooner. The fact that it took her 27 months can only suggest how deep the physchological scars were. I think it is a tremendous tribute to her that she even returned at all and achieved a certain level of success.

I second that, Chris. She didn't do herself any favours from a technical or physical point of view in being absent for so long. Psychologically, however, no-one is in a position to judge whether or not the damage necessitated such a long absence or not. I am thankful that she did come back - and even in her diminished state, one slam title and three slam finals, plus countless other titles means her post 95 career was as successful as the entire career of Sabatini, Novotna, Martinez et al.

Calimero377
Jun 30th, 2004, 05:49 PM
Now answer this question: If the stabbing didn´t happen and then those scandals came up...do u think steffi would have still won those 4 slams or have still mantained motivation if Monica kept beating her time after time?!

It´s easier to stay motivated when you know that the competition ain´t all that.

And the stabbing is relevant, because at least the 12 months directly after it would have had a great influence on the rest of the course of the careers of many players.


The Daddy Sex&Blackmail Scandal started 4 days before the Graf-Seles final in Berlin 1990 with headlines in all German tabloids day after day. Graf who had won 11 consecutive tournaments in 89/90 until then, lost that final, lost at FO four weeks later and at Wimbledon 8 weeks later. Losses in 3 consecutive tournaments - first time since March 1985 ......

Seles obviously profited at lot from Grafs woes in 90/91.

The stabbing was 3 years later.

The Graf Tax Scandal, the most discussed tax evasion case in Germany ever, started in right after Wimbledon 1995 and got real momentum when Pa Graf was imprisoned in August 1995. Exactly at that time Seles returned. Graf obviously was under extreme pressure (and had a foot injury anyway). Nevertheless Graf beat Seles on her home turf, fighting against the whole crowd in USO final. Graf didn' participate at AO 96 due to injury, but won FO, Wim & USO 96 in grand style.

Would she have won without the stabbing?
Why not?
Monica wouldn't have beaten Graf in 93/95 as you suggest.

Monica was only 2-3 head-to-head EVEN when she was #1 and Graf only #2 (91/93).
In a time when Graf MISSED many slam finals because she lost to LESSER players.
From 93 on Graf reached 12 out of 14 slam finals again; she was obviously a better player than in 90/92.


Seles had an extreme psychological advantage when she returned in summer of 1995. Everybody cheered for her, Graf was extremely distracted by her being investigated, her father being in the slammer and had to prove that her wins in Monica's absence were legit.
Nevertheless she dominated the rest of 1995 and 1996 against Seles, beating her twice on USO hardcourts. Daddy still in prison, she herself under criminal investigation and heavily criticized in the public.
Tell her something about mental duress .....

Calimero377
Jun 30th, 2004, 05:57 PM
We have different views on how the stabbing affected Seles. What more can I say re this.

I agree with your previous point that it would have been better for Seles to return to Tennis far sooner. The fact that it took her 27 months can only suggest how deep the physchological scars were. I think it is a tremendous tribute to her that she even returned at all and achieved a certain level of success.


I don't suggest that Seles faked her psychological problems. Far from it.
But IF we allow her to take a 27-month leave due to the stabbing THAN we must allow Steffi Graf a psycholgical slump in 90/91/beginning92 due to "Graf Scandal #1".
And IF we honour Seles for "even returning at all" we should be AWE-STRUCK that Graf won 4 slams while her private life was in a shambles (and her dad in prison) during "Graf Scandal #2". It irks me a lot that people who simply don't know how Graf's situation was like in Germany in 90/91 an 95/96 dismiss her distress in those years as "usual personal problems everybody has from time to time." :fiery:

alfajeffster
Jun 30th, 2004, 06:47 PM
I can see the arguments for Navratilova and Graf, but how can you vote for any of the others above Court?? :scratch:
This is the only credible answer to the thread question. Margaret Smith Court still holds the record for majors, and while I'm all behind Martina's wonderful effort, she isn't there yet. The gold standard has been set- and no one, not Martina, Steffi, Chris, Billie Jean, Serena, Venus, Monica, nobody has equalled what the great southpaw taught to play tennis right-handed has achieved:

24 singles majors
19 doubles majors
19 mixed doubles majors

And as we have discovered, she also holds the record for most singles tournament wins in a career, with well over 185 titles and still counting. This is the benchmark however it's sliced up or re-painted, or re-varnished. The Reverend is still in the pulpit, kids!

chris whiteside
Jun 30th, 2004, 07:11 PM
This is the only credible answer to the thread question. Margaret Smith Court still holds the record for majors, and while I'm all behind Martina's wonderful effort, she isn't there yet. The gold standard has been set- and no one, not Martina, Steffi, Chris, Billie Jean, Serena, Venus, Monica, nobody has equalled what the great southpaw taught to play tennis right-handed has achieved:

24 singles majors
19 doubles majors
19 mixed doubles majors

And as we have discovered, she also holds the record for most singles tournament wins in a career, with well over 185 titles and still counting. This is the benchmark however it's sliced up or re-painted, or re-varnished. The Reverend is still in the pulpit, kids!


Doubles statistics are interesting but IMO not of great relevance.

She was a great champion but of the 24 Slam Titles 11 were Australian. Until the very late 70s the Australian Championships were little more than a local tournament plus a couple of overseas players invited. Most of the top players in the world never bothered to make the trip except in the years the Federation Cup was held there. I find it hard to evaluate these 11 titles but I would certainly have her as one of the greatest.

alfajeffster
Jun 30th, 2004, 07:28 PM
Doubles statistics are interesting but IMO not of great relevance.

She was a great champion but of the 24 Slam Titles 11 were Australian. Until the very late 70s the Australian Championships were little more than a local tournament plus a couple of overseas players invited. Most of the top players in the world never bothered to make the trip except in the years the Federation Cup was held there. I find it hard to evaluate these 11 titles but I would certainly have her as one of the greatest.
It's a popular misconception (perpetuated largely by Billie Jean King) that those 11 Australian titles were played when nobody made the trip. Truth is, between 1960-1970 there were more top players from Australia than any other country. Australia was at the peak of their Hopman dynasty, and Margaret was the first in a long line of Aussie females that were consistently in the top 20 players in the world. The minority of top players were from countries other than Australia. It's a myth that Margaret's 11 titles were won when nobody else played. She was the best in the world, and beat the best players in the world along the way for those titles- from Darlene Hard to Maria Bueno to Billie Jean King.

I tend to think that doubles should be counted, especially when considering the thread title. Even if the question would be restricted to singles only, Margaret Court won every title on the international stage, on every surface, most of them multiple times, and also took two lengthy breaks during her career (1966-67 and 1971-72). The most telling stat is the 185+ singles titles. This gets lost in the "open-era" stats that are now presented as gospel (pun intended). Besides those 11 Australian titles, Margaret also won 5 titles at the French, 3 at Wimbledon (no small feat- that's still a small list) and 5 U.S. Championships.

Andy T
Jun 30th, 2004, 07:37 PM
This one has been debated till the cows come home Chris but if you check out the Blast From the Past Forum, click on the grand slam results, you'll see the full draws for all the Aussie Opens Court won. Several things emerge:
1) half of the top 10 was Australian in the 1960s anyway, so in terms of rankings we're talking the equivalent of a grand slam containing Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Capriati and Seles.
2) Court beat the following Grand Slam champions on her way to her Aussie titles: Maria Bueno (60 and 65), Mary Carter (60), Lesley Turner (64) Frankie Durr (65) Nancy Richey (66), Kerry Reid (69,70, 73), BJ King (65, 69) and Evonne Goolagong (70,71,73) plus grand slam finalists Yola Ramirez (62) Carole Graebner (66) Rosie Casals (68, 69) Jan lehane (60-63) and Helen Gourlay (71).

Whichever way you look at it, the Australian Championships, while not as big compared to Wimbledon, the US and French Championships then as they are now, were still the 4th biggest championships in existence and held Grand Slam status.

alfajeffster
Jun 30th, 2004, 07:56 PM
This one has been debated till the cows come home Chris but if you check out the Blast From the Past Forum, click on the grand slam results, you'll see the full draws for all the Aussie Opens Court won. Several things emerge:
1) half of the top 10 was Australian in the 1960s anyway, so in terms of rankings we're talking the equivalent of a grand slam containing Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Capriati and Seles.
2) Court beat the following Grand Slam champions on her way to her Aussie titles: Maria Bueno (60 and 65), Mary Carter (60), Lesley Turner (64) Frankie Durr (65) Nancy Richey (66), Kerry Reid (69,70, 73), BJ King (65, 69) and Evonne Goolagong (70,71,73) plus grand slam finalists Yola Ramirez (62) Carole Graebner (66) Rosie Casals (68, 69) Jan lehane (60-63) and Helen Gourlay (71).

Whichever way you look at it, the Australian Championships, while not as big compared to Wimbledon, the US and French Championships then as they are now, were still the 4th biggest championships in existence and held Grand Slam status.
:clap2: AND- besides being the 4th biggest, was one of the most hotly contested majors by all acounts. Each of the Australian states had their own championships which were also contested by many of the world's greatest players of the day. Evonne Goolagong's first big win over Margaret came in the Victoria National Championships in 1970, at a time when Margaret had won something like 6 or 7 straight years running.

I wish women's tennis in Australia was still as big as it was then, but sadly, it declined in the late 70s and never really recovered to this day. We haven't seen a Pat Cash or Patrick Rafter or Mark Philippousis equivalent from the women, and it's a real shame because Australia has such a wonderful tapestry of female greats in its tennis history.

DA FOREHAND
Jun 30th, 2004, 08:29 PM
I second that, Chris. She didn't do herself any favours from a technical or physical point of view in being absent for so long. Psychologically, however, no-one is in a position to judge whether or not the damage necessitated such a long absence or not. I am thankful that she did come back - and even in her diminished state, one slam title and three slam finals, plus countless other titles means her post 95 career was as successful as the entire career of Sabatini, Novotna, Martinez et al.

It's also been said that getting out of her contract w/Fila played into the length of her staying out of the game. We'd all like to think that she cameback when the pychological scars healed a bit, but that may not be the whole truth.

Andy T
Jun 30th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Look at this roll of honour for the Victorian State Championships 1958-70, Jeff. It compares favourably to any top tourney of the time.

1958 Reynolds bt Coghlan 64 86

1959 Bueno bt Truman C 60 57 64
1960 Turner bt Carter-Reitano 46 97 63
1961 Smith-Court bt Hard 63 62
1962 Smith-Court bt Turner 64 86
1963 Smith-Court bt Turner 64 64
1964 Smith-Court bt Blackman 61 63
1965 Smith-Court bt Richey 57 63 62
1966 Casals bt Melville 16 61 75
1967 King bt Turner 63 36 75
1968 Smith-Court bt Harris 61 64
1969 Smith-Court bt Melville 61 61
1970 Goolagong bt Smith-Court 76 76

tennisvideos
Jul 1st, 2004, 02:17 PM
Look at this roll of honour for the Victorian State Championships 1958-70, Jeff. It compares favourably to any top tourney of the time.

1958 Reynolds bt Coghlan 64 86

1959 Bueno bt Truman C 60 57 64
1960 Turner bt Carter-Reitano 46 97 63
1961 Smith-Court bt Hard 63 62
1962 Smith-Court bt Turner 64 86
1963 Smith-Court bt Turner 64 64
1964 Smith-Court bt Blackman 61 63
1965 Smith-Court bt Richey 57 63 62
1966 Casals bt Melville 16 61 75
1967 King bt Turner 63 36 75
1968 Smith-Court bt Harris 61 64
1969 Smith-Court bt Melville 61 61
1970 Goolagong bt Smith-Court 76 76


:worship: :worship: :worship:

Superb posts from both Andy T and Alfajeffster ..... you guys certainly know your tennis history and I applaud you both.

Plus, it saves me from having to get into my defense attorney gear on behalf of the Rev. Court. :tape:

Certainly those Aussie Opens contained many of the great players of the day. It's just that many of the names wouldn't mean much to tennis fans today, however, you can rest assured, they were big names at the time. And as Alfa & Andy T have both mentioned, the Aussie women WERE the BEST IN THE WORLD during the 60s and early 70s and had incredible depth.

Now, as Alfa expressed .... if only we could unearth another Evonne Goolagong. But I have a feeling she will be the only incarnated angel gracing the tennis world in my lifetime. :sad:

:wavey:

ys
Jul 1st, 2004, 02:23 PM
I love Steffi/ I don't like Martina N. But it is Martina N.

alfajeffster
Jul 1st, 2004, 02:58 PM
:worship: :worship: :worship:

Superb posts from both Andy T and Alfajeffster ..... you guys certainly know your tennis history and I applaud you both.

Plus, it saves me from having to get into my defense attorney gear on behalf of the Rev. Court. :tape:

Certainly those Aussie Opens contained many of the great players of the day. It's just that many of the names wouldn't mean much to tennis fans today, however, you can rest assured, they were big names at the time. And as Alfa & Andy T have both mentioned, the Aussie women WERE the BEST IN THE WORLD during the 60s and early 70s and had incredible depth.

Now, as Alfa expressed .... if only we could unearth another Evonne Goolagong. But I have a feeling she will be the only incarnated angel gracing the tennis world in my lifetime. :sad:

:wavey:
Perhaps TennisAustralia might consider usurping the Bollettieri/Maci stranglehold on the Florida tennis camp breeding ground, and try to develop something in Syd or maybe the Gold Coast area to attract and produce world class juniors. There is certainly no shortage of professional tennis acadamia (especially great female tennis professionals) talent down under- what do you think TV- can you see it happening? Certainly it makes sense to begin using the southern hemisphere climate and seasonality to Australia's advantage during the northern hemisphere winter months to develop and improve on the Florida stranglehold.

chris whiteside
Jul 1st, 2004, 08:20 PM
[QUOTE=Andy T]This one has been debated till the cows come home Chris but if you check out the Blast From the Past Forum, click on the grand slam results, you'll see the full draws for all the Aussie Opens Court won. Several things emerge:


Andy, I'll take issue with you on some of the points eventually but if you see this can you tell me is there any quick way of finding any particular year for any Grand Slam or do you have to troll through the pages until you come across one?

There seems to be no particular order to them.

Thanks.

KV
Jul 1st, 2004, 08:42 PM
Go for Navratilova

Andy T
Jul 1st, 2004, 08:42 PM
[QUOTE=Andy T]This one has been debated till the cows come home Chris but if you check out the Blast From the Past Forum, click on the grand slam results, you'll see the full draws for all the Aussie Opens Court won. Several things emerge:


Andy, I'll take issue with you on some of the points eventually but if you see this can you tell me is there any quick way of finding any particular year for any Grand Slam or do you have to troll through the pages until you come across one?

There seems to be no particular order to them.

Thanks.
They're arranged chronologically, Chris, but you need to find the page where the definitve lists are - the disordered posts are additions to fill in the gaps that had existed before. To be fair, it is clear that fields in some years were weaker than others but that is also true for other slams as well. For example, BJK won the US Open in 71 in a field which didn't contain any grand slam champ post 1968 except herself and Nancy Richey (no Court, Jones, Goolagong or Wade) and Evert cleaned up the French Open in 74 and 75 without King, Court or Goolagong and in 79 and 80 without Goolagong, Austin or Navratilova. Somewhere (God knows where) we looked at how many of the year end top ten were present in Oz each year in comparison to the other slams and found that, while it often (thoughnot always) had the weakest field, the event was nonetheless sufficiently well supported by the top aussies and generally graced by several of the very top international stars.

I must admit that part of my defence of the Aussie Open is that I am VERY much against the BJK revisionist/self-promotion tendency to diminish what Court achieved. I abhor many of Court's views on social issues but as a tennis player, she is the victim of the BJK school of history.

chris whiteside
Jul 2nd, 2004, 05:51 AM
They're arranged chronologically, Chris, but you need to find the page where the definitve lists are - the disordered posts are additions to fill in the gaps that had existed before. To be fair, it is clear that fields in some years were weaker than others but that is also true for other slams as well. For example, BJK won the US Open in 71 in a field which didn't contain any grand slam champ post 1968 except herself and Nancy Richey (no Court, Jones, Goolagong or Wade) and Evert cleaned up the French Open in 74 and 75 without King, Court or Goolagong and in 79 and 80 without Goolagong, Austin or Navratilova. Somewhere (God knows where) we looked at how many of the year end top ten were present in Oz each year in comparison to the other slams and found that, while it often (thoughnot always) had the weakest field, the event was nonetheless sufficiently well supported by the top aussies and generally graced by several of the very top international stars.

I must admit that part of my defence of the Aussie Open is that I am VERY much against the BJK revisionist/self-promotion tendency to diminish what Court achieved. I abhor many of Court's views on social issues but as a tennis player, she is the victim of the BJK school of history.



Many thanks for this, Andy. I am going to look at the fields for the 60s/70s because I could very well have gotten the wrong impression as I was very young then. But my own impressions had nothing to do with any opinions of BJK. I do remember the year my fellow Brit Virginia Wade won in 1972 there was only herself and Goolagong from the Top 10 and in 1973, Wade plus the 3 Australians in the Top 10. I was also reading an article a couple of months ago in a British tennis magazine from 1967 which did an in-depth survey of the fields and found that tha Australian was only the 6th best after the "Big 3" plus Germany and Italy.

But maybe these are the years when the firelds were weakest.

BTW what did you use for determining the World's Top 10? They didn't have official rankings in those days. I think generally the two rankings regarded as the most reliable were those of Lance Tingay in the UK's Daily Telegraph and those of the US magazine Tennis World. I know there were always going to be differences of opinion in compiling these rankings but sometimes they were quite ridiculous such as in 1964 when Tingay ranked Schultze of Germany as No.5 while Potter in TW didn't consider her among the Top 15.

I was told a couple of years ago by a Wimbledon Champion of that era that many of the players regarded Tingay's rankings "with some scepticism" and tended to look towards the TW ones as the most accurate. As she was NOT American I don't think she was biased so I have since been regarding the TW rankings as the "official" list.

chris whiteside
Jul 2nd, 2004, 06:20 AM
They're arranged chronologically, Chris, but you need to find the page where the definitve lists are.


Apologies for confusion. It was the additions list I had been viewing but have now found the definitive one.

tennisvideos
Jul 2nd, 2004, 06:48 AM
Below is a portion of an earlier post of mine on another thread regarding the Aussie Opens that Margaret Court won .....

Aussie Open 1959 (Margaret lost to Reitano in the 2nd round - want to highlight the emerging talent that was Jan Lehane)
Mary Reitano beats Jan Lehane in the Semis and then beats R.Schuurman (world top 10) in Final.
***Jan Lehane beat World #5 in the QF - Sandra Reynolds (SA) 63 64

Aussie Open 1960
QF Court b Bueno 75 36 64 (Bueno is World #1 and Wimbledon Champion)
SF: Court b Reitano 75 26 62 (Reitano dual Aussie Open champ and wins over World top 10 players)
SF: Jan Lehane b C. Truman (World #4) 75 36 75
F: Court b Lehane 75 62 (world #8)

Aussie Open 1961
SF: Court b R.Ebbern (reached world #9) 62 60
SF: Lehane b Reitano 63 46 61 (former dual Aussie Champ)
F: Court b Lehane 61 64 (read more on her further down)

Aussie Open 1962
QF Court b Tegart (reached World #7 and Wimbledon singles finalist) 62 75
QF J.Lehane b D.Hard (world #3 and multiple GS winner) 75 63
SF Court b Y Ramirez (world #6 in 1961) 62 61
SF: Lehane b Reitano 62 26 64
F: Court b Lehane 62 62

Aussie Open 1963
SF: Court b R. Ebbern (reached world #9) 61 63
SF: J.Lehane b L.Turner (current French Singles Champion and world #7 & would become world #2 and multiple French Singles Champion) 57 63 62
F: Court b Lehane 62 62

Note: Jan Lehane was an excellent player who reached world #7 with very limited overseas opportunites (read 4 trips of a few months between 61-64). She beat multiple GS champion and former world #1 Darlene Hard on a number of occasions, as well as world #1 Maria Bueno (including twice within 5 days). She also had multiple wins over all the other leading ladies of the day including Christine Truman, Sandra Reynolds, Lesley Turner, Anne Haydon etc. And won numerous tournaments during those limited overseas trips (just take quick look at the Womens Tennis Finals Database at the top of the Blast from the past between 61-64 to see some of her great wins). At her first overseas trip (aged 18?) she made the Wimbledon Round of 16 before losing to Karen Susman (champion in 1962). In 1962 Jan lost in the 3rd round to Vera Sukova (finalist at Wimbledon that year). In 1963 she was seeded #5 at Wimbledon and reached the Qfs before spraining her ankle and having to retire against Darlene Hard (multiple GS champion). In 1964 she retired from tennis after having to undergo her second serious knee surgery. She made a comeback a few years later and performed credibly under her married name Jan O’Neil, but never reached the same heights before her injury forced retirement.

Aussie Open 1964
SF: Court b Lehane 64 62
SF: Turner b R. Ebbern 63 61
F: Court b Turner 63 62 (French Singles Champion and World #3 this year)

Aussie Open 1965
QF: Court b Durr (world #10 & reached world #3 high and multiple GS winner) 63 63
SF: Court b King 61 86
SF: Bueno (World #2) b Van Zyl (world #6)
F: Court b Bueno 57 64 52 (ret)

Aussie Open 1966
SF: Court b C.Graebner (former world #3 & GS Finalist) 62 64
SF: Richey (multiple GS winner and world high #3) b Melville (would be world #5 for 3 years running) 62 86
F: Court b Richey w/o

Aussie Open 1968 (coming back from retirement)
QF Court b Casals (world high #3) 60 62
SF King b Tegart 46 61 62 (world #7)
SF Court b Turner 63 62 (world #8)
F King b Court 61 62

Aussie Open 1969
QF Court b Casals 64 61 (world #6 & GS Finalist)
SF Court b Melville 36 62 75 (world #7)
SF King b Jones (Wimbledon Champion & World #2) 46 62 63
F Court b King 64 61 (world #3)

Aussie Open 1970
QF Court b Goolagong 63 61
SF Court b K Krantzcke (world #8) 61 63
F Court b Melville (world #6) 63 61

Aussie Open 1971
F Court b Goolagong (Wimbledon Champ and World #1) 26 76 75

Aussie Open 1973
QF Court b K Krantzcke 64 63 (Wade lost in Qfs)
SF Court b Melville 61 60 (world #7)
F Court b Goolagong 64 75 (world #3)

Some of the wins in the weaker years translate to the equivilent of some of the wins in GS singles events by others in the game – including Navratilova, Graf etc. For example: 93 French (Graf) 93 USO (Graf) 83 Wimbledon (Navratilova) 83 Australian Open (Navratilova) 1990 Wimbledon (Navratilova) as examples. I am not here trying to tear down other people’s records. I am merely stating, that if you start to try and pull apart a person’s record, then to be fair you can do the same to the others. Margaret destroyed whatever her rivals in the early rounds on most occasions, and then beat some of the world’s top players in the penultimate matches that counted. Just like many of the other champion’s Grand Slam singles titles.

Only in 1 year - 1961, and possibly 1963 could the quality of opponents be questioned, and even during those years Margaret had to beat Jan Lehane in the finals – a player who had proven herself with multiple wins against all of the worlds top players as mentioned above.

Margaret was the world's #1 player during most of the years she won the Aussie Open. Margaret was Australian so was playing on her home turf - certainly an advantage and Margaret was the world's greatest Grasscourt player of her era. There is little doubt Margaret would have won most of those titles regardless of who else came - she already beat the best when they did come except on two occasions - 1968 when she was coming back from 18 months retirement and she still made the Final! And then again in 1975 when she was making a comeback after having her 2nd child - she lost in the Quarters to Navratilova that year.

In summary, although the depth may not have been as strong overall in some of those Aussie titles as in the other 3 Slams of the day, there were still enough of the best players of the day there to test Margaret - and she proved up to the task! We are talking about many topline players that Court beat on her way to those titles: Bueno, Hard, King, Turner, Jones, Richey, Goolagong, Durr and then the next tier were all pretty damn good players in their day too and were all top tenners and some GS finalists: Melville, Tegart, Casals, Lehane, Ebbern, Kranztke, Reitano, Ramirez etc.

tennisvideos
Jul 2nd, 2004, 07:07 AM
Just a couple of other interesting points to note about Margaret Court and her Grand Slam career....

Even if you take away all of her Aussie Open wins, her winning singles strike rate at the other 3 Slams (Wimbledon, French and USO for anyone who may be unsure) is still the greatest of anyone since Maureen Connolly in the early 50s.

Not only that, but I think I read the other day on another thread (will have to confirm) but her winning DOUBLES strike rate at the Slams is also the best in the modern era.

Let's not also forget that Court won 3 of the 4 Slams in 1973 after returning to the tour from her 2nd retirement (having had her first child)!!! In fact during that amazing year in 1973, this mother only lost a handful of matches in dominating what can only be described as one of the most competitive years the WTA tour has ever seen - Court, Goolagong, King, Evert, Wade, Richey, Morozova, Durr, Casals, Melville, Heldman, Masthoff .....

Won 1970 calendar Grand Slam joining Connolly & Graf as the only two other players to achieve his monumentous feat.

In 4 other years, Margaret won 3 of the 4 GS singles titles!!!

Has won more Grand Slam singles titles than anyone in history

Has won more Grand Slam titles than anyone in history

Has the greatest winning strike rate in Grand Slam singles in the modern era (post 1960)

She was world #1 for 7 years. From 1962-5 (she retired in 1966), from 1969-70 (retired in 71 to have her first baby) and in 1973 (retired in 74 to have her 2nd baby). Pretty amazing.

Has won more Singles tournaments than anyone in history, including the legendary Navratilova… not only that, but she achieved her remarkable record with only about 12 full years on the tour (compared to 20+ years for Martina)

Won calendar year Grand Slam Mixed Doubles with Ken Fletcher

Greatest grass court player AND clay court player of her generation … in an era which included great grass court players – Hard, Bueno, King and great clay court players - Turner, Jones, Richey (who could match it with Evert on clay even in her 30s in the early 70s)

Won triple (singles / doubles / mixed) at a number of GS tournaments (not sure how many without checking records)

Sam L
Jul 2nd, 2004, 07:12 AM
If Margaret was so great on grass why did she only win 3 Wimbledons? :confused:

chris whiteside
Jul 2nd, 2004, 11:29 AM
Below is a portion of an earlier post of mine on another thread regarding the Aussie Opens that Margaret Court won ......
Interesting statistics here. I haven't yet decided whom I think is No.1 but Court is definitely one of my contenders, the other four being Navratilova, Graf, Evert and Connolly. I am going to have a good look at the strength of the Australian Open during the 60s and 70s.


But some of the world rankings you quoted for certain players caught my eye. Whose lists did you use for these purposes?

tennisvideos
Jul 2nd, 2004, 12:49 PM
If Margaret was so great on grass why did she only win 3 Wimbledons? :confused:

She won 5 US Opens on grass and the Aussie Open titles were all on grass. Also her record overall on other grasscourt tournaments (remember in the 60s most tournies were on grass or clay) was phenomenal.

Just because she ONLY won 3 Wimbledons doesn't mar the fact she was the best on grass in her generation. Yes, Wimbledon is the premier grass court tournament of the world, but to determine someone's overall surface domination you also need to factor all the grass court results and those of her peers - and Court comes out on top of them all including King, Bueno, Goolagong, Wade etc - all great grasscourters in their own right.

tennisvideos
Jul 2nd, 2004, 12:52 PM
Interesting statistics here. I haven't yet decided whom I think is No.1 but Court is definitely one of my contenders, the other four being Navratilova, Graf, Evert and Connolly. I am going to have a good look at the strength of the Australian Open during the 60s and 70s.


But some of the world rankings you quoted for certain players caught my eye. Whose lists did you use for these purposes?

The rankings were from Lance Tingay through to 1967 and from Bud Collins from 68 onwards.

Don't forget about Lenglen & Wills. :)

chris whiteside
Jul 2nd, 2004, 09:57 PM
[QUOTE=tennisvideos]The rankings were from Lance Tingay through to 1967 and from Bud Collins from 68 onwards.


Would you ever have the Bud Collins list for 1968? It would be greatly appreciated.

tennisvideos
Jul 3rd, 2004, 12:06 AM
[QUOTE=tennisvideos]The rankings were from Lance Tingay through to 1967 and from Bud Collins from 68 onwards.


Would you ever have the Bud Collins list for 1968? It would be greatly appreciated.

1. King
2. Wade
3. Richey
4. Court
5. Bueno
6. Jones
7. Tegart
8. Turner
9. Van Zyl
10. Casals

Cheers

chris whiteside
Jul 3rd, 2004, 07:25 AM
Many thanks, Tennis Videos.

Sam L
Jul 3rd, 2004, 09:15 AM
She won 5 US Opens on grass and the Aussie Open titles were all on grass. Also her record overall on other grasscourt tournaments (remember in the 60s most tournies were on grass or clay) was phenomenal.

Just because she ONLY won 3 Wimbledons doesn't mar the fact she was the best on grass in her generation. Yes, Wimbledon is the premier grass court tournament of the world, but to determine someone's overall surface domination you also need to factor all the grass court results and those of her peers - and Court comes out on top of them all including King, Bueno, Goolagong, Wade etc - all great grasscourters in their own right.
I'm sure she's a great grass court player, but the fact that she failed to beat her opponents at Wimbledon on the big stage is telling.

Consider this, maybe when the likes of Billie Jean came down to Australia, they weren't at their best, because of travel, the weather? But Wimbledon was neutral territory. It wasn't US or Australia. And Margaret, if truely was better, should've won more Wimbledon titles.

Until the last decade or so, Wimbledon was THE tournament to win.

Ask Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Gibson, King, and even Evert, Navratilova and Graf. They'll all say that Wimbledon is where they bring their best tennis.

Out of all those greats, Margaret has the least Wimbledon titles, except Connolly and Evert. Connolly is an exception cause she only played like 4 years and grass is Evert's obvious weakness.

So why only 3?

I mean another way of looking at this is sure Margaret was a great grasscourter, but she only won 3 Wimbledons and 5 US titles. That's 8 slams on grasscourts aside from the Australian. Compare this to Helen Wills Moody who won 8 Wimbledons and 7 US titles. Doesn't look so great does it?

Her Australian titles are the very reason why name appears anywhere!

Andy T
Jul 3rd, 2004, 09:39 AM
I'm sure she's a great grass court player, but the fact that she failed to beat her opponents at Wimbledon on the big stage is telling.

Consider this, maybe when the likes of Billie Jean came down to Australia, they weren't at their best, because of travel, the weather? But Wimbledon was neutral territory. It wasn't US or Australia. And Margaret, if truely was better, should've won more Wimbledon titles.

Until the last decade or so, Wimbledon was THE tournament to win.

Ask Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Gibson, King, and even Evert, Navratilova and Graf. They'll all say that Wimbledon is where they bring their best tennis.

Out of all those greats, Margaret has the least Wimbledon titles, except Connolly and Evert. Connolly is an exception cause she only played like 4 years and grass is Evert's obvious weakness.

So why only 3?

I mean another way of looking at this is sure Margaret was a great grasscourter, but she only won 3 Wimbledons and 5 US titles. That's 8 slams on grasscourts aside from the Australian. Compare this to Helen Wills Moody who won 8 Wimbledons and 7 US titles. Doesn't look so great does it?

Her Australian titles are the very reason why name appears anywhere!
A few observations about the relative successes of King and Court at Wimbledon and the US Open.

King only beat Court once in all her 6 Wimbledon championship winning years (and once more in the famous upset of 1962). That was 63 63 in the semis in 1966. Court beat King in 1963, 1965 and 1970, each time she won the title, and in 1964. King's titles in 1967 and 1972 were won without Court in the field.

At the US Nationals/Open, Court beat King in the 65 final and lost to her in the semis in 1972. Of King's 4 titles there, three were won in the absence of Court (1967, 1971 and 1974). Of Court 5 victories, only one (1970) was won in the absence of King.

tennisvideos
Jul 3rd, 2004, 09:42 AM
I'm sure she's a great grass court player, but the fact that she failed to beat her opponents at Wimbledon on the big stage is telling.

Consider this, maybe when the likes of Billie Jean came down to Australia, they weren't at their best, because of travel, the weather? But Wimbledon was neutral territory. It wasn't US or Australia. And Margaret, if truely was better, should've won more Wimbledon titles.

Until the last decade or so, Wimbledon was THE tournament to win.

Ask Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Gibson, King, and even Evert, Navratilova and Graf. They'll all say that Wimbledon is where they bring their best tennis.

Out of all those greats, Margaret has the least Wimbledon titles, except Connolly and Evert. Connolly is an exception cause she only played like 4 years and grass is Evert's obvious weakness.

So why only 3?

I mean another way of looking at this is sure Margaret was a great grasscourter, but she only won 3 Wimbledons and 5 US titles. That's 8 slams on grasscourts aside from the Australian. Compare this to Helen Wills Moody who won 8 Wimbledons and 7 US titles. Doesn't look so great does it?

Her Australian titles are the very reason why name appears anywhere!

Sam L

So you are basically still trying to denigrate the Aussie Open.

OK, let's forget all about the Aussie Open for a minute, to appease you.

And even without factoring in the Aussie Open, Margaret Court has the greatest winning strike rate at the French, Wimbledon & US Open than every player since Maureen Connolly.

How is that Sam L? Looks good enough for me!

You mention Margaret only won 3 Wimbledons time and again. But she only played there 12 times all together (and 3 of those times she was coming back from a year off the tour so was far from match toughened). In effect, she was only match toughened on 9 occasions that she played there. As it was, her winning strike rate there was 25% which isn't too bad at all. Nothing to sneeze at.

Evert however played Wimbledon 17 times, King played it 21 times, Navratilova 22 times. Many more opportunities to win than Mrs. Court wouldn't you say?

Read my next post for an in depth look at the Slam strike rates (with and WITHOUT the Aussie Open to appease the armchair critics).....

tennisvideos
Jul 3rd, 2004, 09:54 AM
Let's take a look at the strike rate of the Champions of recent history (since 1960) in Grand Slams... those with great records and longevity.

I will list GS titles won, followed by the number of GS events played, followed by the winning tournament percentage.

Navratilova
Wimbledon 9/22 Winning Strike Rate: 41%
USO 4/21 Winning Strike Rate: 19%
French 2/12 Winning Strike Rate: 17%
Aussie 3/10 Winning Strike Rate: 30%

Steffi Graf
Wimbledon 7/14 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
USO 5/14 Winning Strike Rate: 36%
French 6/16 Winning Strike Rate: 38%
Aussie 4/10 Winning Strike Rate: 40%

Billie-Jean King
Wimbledon 6/21 Winning Strike Rate: 29%
USO 4/16? Winning Strike Rate: 25%
French 1/7? Winning Strike Rate: 14%
Aussie 1/3? Winning Strike Rate: 33%

Chris Evert
Wimbledon 3/17 Winning Strike Rate: 18%
USO 6/19 Winning Strike Rate: 32%
French 7/13 Winning Strike Rate: 54%
Aussie 2/6 Winning Strike Rate: 33%

Margaret Court
Wimbledon 3/12 Winning Strike Rate: 25%
USO 5/10 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
French 5/10 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
Aussie 11/13 Winning Strike Rate: 85%

Some fascinating results wouldn't you think.

At Wimbledon Graf has a remarkeable 50% and Navratilova a very impressive 41%. Billie-Jean is best know for her 6 Wimbledon titles (and doubles titles there), and has a strike rate of 29%. Margaret Court is always put down for having won only 3 Wimbledon titles, but few recall that she didn't play anywhere near as many as King & Navratilova, Evert etc and her strike rate there is quite respectable 25%.. not far behind King at all, and this is her worst performance overall but still not bad.

At the French Open it is Evert, not surprisingly, who leads with a strike rate of 54%.... but look at how close Margaret Court is at 50%!!!! Surprising? Not to the true tennis historian. But if you listen to King etc and their versions of tennis history you should be stunned by this sort of information. Graf also has a great stat of 38%.

At the USO Court clearly leads with 50% followed by Graf with 36% and Evert on 32%.

And then the Aussie Open is a whitewash for Court at a staggering 85% compared to Graf 40%, Evert 33%, Navratilova 30%. And go back to the earlier threads to see there were many top line players in the fields when Margaret won most of those Aussie Open titles. Start to slag off the quality and then we can start with some of the Slams that some of the other players won and the players they had to beat. But that is not what I am about. I am about trying, along with the other dedicated fans and historians here, to provide an education to those who have not got the information, history or knowledge of our wonderful sport.

Based on the above strike rates, the % doesn't favour those who played on beyond their "use by date" (joke joke!!!!). Gotta be careful with the humour here..

OK, so let us rework the strike rate % so that we only factor in the player's career up until the last Grand Slam title that they won. That seems a fairer way to do it. That takes Navratilova up until 1990, Evert up to 1986 and King only up until 1975. Reasonable? I think so.

Here we go:
Navratilova 1990 (last Wimbledon Win)
Wimbledon 9/18 Strike rate = 50%
USO 4/18 Strike rate = 22%
French 2/11 Strike rate = 18%
Aussie 3/10 Strike rate = 30%
Overall Strike Rate = 30.00%

Chris Evert 1986 (last French Win)
Wimbledon 3/15 Strike rate = 20%
USO 6/14 Strike rate = 43%
French 7/11 Strike rate = 64%
Aussie 2/5 Strike rate = 40%
Overall Strike Rate = 41.75%

King 1975 (last Wimbledon win)
Wimbledon 6/15 Strike rate = 40%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 1/5 Strike rate = 20%
Aussie 1/3 Strike rate = 33%
Overall Strike rate = 30.00%

Court 1973 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 3/11 Strike rate = 27%
USO 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
French 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
Aussie 11/12 Strike rate = 92%
Overall Strike rate = 54.75%

Steffi Graf 1999 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 7/14 Strike rate = 50%
USO 5/14 Strike rate = 36%
French 6/16 Strike rate = 38%
Aussie 4/10 Strike rate = 40%
Overall Strike rate = 41%

Let's even make things a little better for Navratilova. Let's take her back to 1987 when she won 2 Slams in that year, and delete everything after that. After all, she only won 1 more GS singles title, and that was 3 years later, so it was pretty obvious she was past her best.

Navratilova 1987 (last year that she won 2 GS titles)
Wimbledon 8/15 Strike rate = 53%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 2/10 Strike rate = 20%
Aussie 3/8 Strike rate = 38%
Overall strike GS Strike rate (up until 1987) = 34.50%

Now let's completely eradicate the Australian Open titles. Totally unfair of course ... esp as Margaret did have to contend with many top players ... but considering how so many people just love to tear it to shreds let's just try the GS strike rates without the Aussie Open. AND, at the same time, let's restrict it to the last year the players won a GS title (and in Navratilova's case to 1987 when she won her last 2 slams in the same year). In other words, all players were still pretty much competitive at the highest level.

Here we go:
Chris Evert 1986 (last French Win)
Wimbledon 3/15 Strike rate = 20%
USO 6/14 Strike rate = 43%
French 7/11 Strike rate = 64%
Overall Strike Rate = 42%

King 1975 (last Wimbledon win)
Wimbledon 6/15 Strike rate = 40%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 1/5 Strike rate = 20%
Overall Strike rate = 29%

Court 1973 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 3/11 Strike rate = 27%
USO 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
French 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
Overall Strike rate = 42%

Steffi Graf 1999 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 7/14 Strike rate = 50%
USO 5/14 Strike rate = 36%
French 6/16 Strike rate = 38%
Overall Strike rate = 41%

Navratilova 1987 (last year that she won 2 GS titles)
Wimbledon 8/15 Strike rate = 53%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 2/10 Strike rate = 20%
Overall Strike rate = 33%

Fascinating stuff. So even without the Aussie Open factored in at all, AND the stats restricted to the last year a player won a slam (and in Navratilova's case restricted by a further 3 years to the last time she won 2 slams) it makes for fascinating data:

Margaret Court & Chris Evert are tied at 42%
Steffi Graf is just a breath away on 41%
Navratilova is at 33%
King is at 29%

I don't think we can dilute things much more to try and make Margaret's record look worse. Even taking away all her Aussie Open wins, she still comes out on top of the restricted GS strike rate with Evert. But of course, we are not allowed to reduce the Slam titles won by others over relativly weaker fields are we?????? And yet there are plenty of diluted GS Titles that other champions won ... But I am not going to stoop to such a level that others would like to do to dismember the records of the legends.

Surely that should put some of the critics to rest.

:tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :lol:

In addition to Margaret Court's astonishing GS record, she also has won the greatest number of womens singles titles ever - and with only 12 full years on tour.... compare that to anyone else and Court is MILES AHEAD !!!!!!!!! And not only that, Margaret had to contend with some of the best grasscourt players in modern history - King, Bueno, Hard, Wade, Goolagong.

Sam L - did you read all of this? I hope so. There is MUCH more I could write, but I don't think we have to take this too much further. :devil: :) :lol:

Yes, Margaret has put a lot of people off side with her opinions. However, any tennis historian would have to admit, she certainly belongs in a select list of the greatest players in history. :worship: :worship: :worship:

Andy T
Jul 3rd, 2004, 10:04 AM
You know your preaching to the converted in my case, Craig, but thanks anyway for sharing this once more.

Dymension
Jul 3rd, 2004, 10:07 AM
I'd say Steffi :D :bounce:

Sam L
Jul 3rd, 2004, 10:50 AM
Let's take a look at the strike rate of the Champions of recent history (since 1960) in Grand Slams... those with great records and longevity.

I will list GS titles won, followed by the number of GS events played, followed by the winning tournament percentage.

Navratilova
Wimbledon 9/22 Winning Strike Rate: 41%
USO 4/21 Winning Strike Rate: 19%
French 2/12 Winning Strike Rate: 17%
Aussie 3/10 Winning Strike Rate: 30%

Steffi Graf
Wimbledon 7/14 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
USO 5/14 Winning Strike Rate: 36%
French 6/16 Winning Strike Rate: 38%
Aussie 4/10 Winning Strike Rate: 40%

Billie-Jean King
Wimbledon 6/21 Winning Strike Rate: 29%
USO 4/16? Winning Strike Rate: 25%
French 1/7? Winning Strike Rate: 14%
Aussie 1/3? Winning Strike Rate: 33%

Chris Evert
Wimbledon 3/17 Winning Strike Rate: 18%
USO 6/19 Winning Strike Rate: 32%
French 7/13 Winning Strike Rate: 54%
Aussie 2/6 Winning Strike Rate: 33%

Margaret Court
Wimbledon 3/12 Winning Strike Rate: 25%
USO 5/10 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
French 5/10 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
Aussie 11/13 Winning Strike Rate: 85%

Some fascinating results wouldn't you think.

At Wimbledon Graf has a remarkeable 50% and Navratilova a very impressive 41%. Billie-Jean is best know for her 6 Wimbledon titles (and doubles titles there), and has a strike rate of 29%. Margaret Court is always put down for having won only 3 Wimbledon titles, but few recall that she didn't play anywhere near as many as King & Navratilova, Evert etc and her strike rate there is quite respectable 25%.. not far behind King at all, and this is her worst performance overall but still not bad.

At the French Open it is Evert, not surprisingly, who leads with a strike rate of 54%.... but look at how close Margaret Court is at 50%!!!! Surprising? Not to the true tennis historian. But if you listen to King etc and their versions of tennis history you should be stunned by this sort of information. Graf also has a great stat of 38%.

At the USO Court clearly leads with 50% followed by Graf with 36% and Evert on 32%.

And then the Aussie Open is a whitewash for Court at a staggering 85% compared to Graf 40%, Evert 33%, Navratilova 30%. And go back to the earlier threads to see there were many top line players in the fields when Margaret won most of those Aussie Open titles. Start to slag off the quality and then we can start with some of the Slams that some of the other players won and the players they had to beat. But that is not what I am about. I am about trying, along with the other dedicated fans and historians here, to provide an education to those who have not got the information, history or knowledge of our wonderful sport.

Based on the above strike rates, the % doesn't favour those who played on beyond their "use by date" (joke joke!!!!). Gotta be careful with the humour here..

OK, so let us rework the strike rate % so that we only factor in the player's career up until the last Grand Slam title that they won. That seems a fairer way to do it. That takes Navratilova up until 1990, Evert up to 1986 and King only up until 1975. Reasonable? I think so.

Here we go:
Navratilova 1990 (last Wimbledon Win)
Wimbledon 9/18 Strike rate = 50%
USO 4/18 Strike rate = 22%
French 2/11 Strike rate = 18%
Aussie 3/10 Strike rate = 30%
Overall Strike Rate = 30.00%

Chris Evert 1986 (last French Win)
Wimbledon 3/15 Strike rate = 20%
USO 6/14 Strike rate = 43%
French 7/11 Strike rate = 64%
Aussie 2/5 Strike rate = 40%
Overall Strike Rate = 41.75%

King 1975 (last Wimbledon win)
Wimbledon 6/15 Strike rate = 40%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 1/5 Strike rate = 20%
Aussie 1/3 Strike rate = 33%
Overall Strike rate = 30.00%

Court 1973 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 3/11 Strike rate = 27%
USO 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
French 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
Aussie 11/12 Strike rate = 92%
Overall Strike rate = 54.75%

Steffi Graf 1999 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 7/14 Strike rate = 50%
USO 5/14 Strike rate = 36%
French 6/16 Strike rate = 38%
Aussie 4/10 Strike rate = 40%
Overall Strike rate = 41%

Let's even make things a little better for Navratilova. Let's take her back to 1987 when she won 2 Slams in that year, and delete everything after that. After all, she only won 1 more GS singles title, and that was 3 years later, so it was pretty obvious she was past her best.

Navratilova 1987 (last year that she won 2 GS titles)
Wimbledon 8/15 Strike rate = 53%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 2/10 Strike rate = 20%
Aussie 3/8 Strike rate = 38%
Overall strike GS Strike rate (up until 1987) = 34.50%

Now let's completely eradicate the Australian Open titles. Totally unfair of course ... esp as Margaret did have to contend with many top players ... but considering how so many people just love to tear it to shreds let's just try the GS strike rates without the Aussie Open. AND, at the same time, let's restrict it to the last year the players won a GS title (and in Navratilova's case to 1987 when she won her last 2 slams in the same year). In other words, all players were still pretty much competitive at the highest level.

Here we go:
Chris Evert 1986 (last French Win)
Wimbledon 3/15 Strike rate = 20%
USO 6/14 Strike rate = 43%
French 7/11 Strike rate = 64%
Overall Strike Rate = 42%

King 1975 (last Wimbledon win)
Wimbledon 6/15 Strike rate = 40%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 1/5 Strike rate = 20%
Overall Strike rate = 29%

Court 1973 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 3/11 Strike rate = 27%
USO 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
French 5/10 Strike rate = 50%
Overall Strike rate = 42%

Steffi Graf 1999 (last GS win)
Wimbledon 7/14 Strike rate = 50%
USO 5/14 Strike rate = 36%
French 6/16 Strike rate = 38%
Overall Strike rate = 41%

Navratilova 1987 (last year that she won 2 GS titles)
Wimbledon 8/15 Strike rate = 53%
USO 4/15 Strike rate = 27%
French 2/10 Strike rate = 20%
Overall Strike rate = 33%

Fascinating stuff. So even without the Aussie Open factored in at all, AND the stats restricted to the last year a player won a slam (and in Navratilova's case restricted by a further 3 years to the last time she won 2 slams) it makes for fascinating data:

Margaret Court & Chris Evert are tied at 42%
Steffi Graf is just a breath away on 41%
Navratilova is at 33%
King is at 29%

I don't think we can dilute things much more to try and make Margaret's record look worse. Even taking away all her Aussie Open wins, she still comes out on top of the restricted GS strike rate with Evert. But of course, we are not allowed to reduce the Slam titles won by others over relativly weaker fields are we?????? And yet there are plenty of diluted GS Titles that other champions won ... But I am not going to stoop to such a level that others would like to do to dismember the records of the legends.

Surely that should put some of the critics to rest.

:tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :tape: :lol:

In addition to Margaret Court's astonishing GS record, she also has won the greatest number of womens singles titles ever - and with only 12 full years on tour.... compare that to anyone else and Court is MILES AHEAD !!!!!!!!! And not only that, Margaret had to contend with some of the best grasscourt players in modern history - King, Bueno, Hard, Wade, Goolagong.

Sam L - did you read all of this? I hope so. There is MUCH more I could write, but I don't think we have to take this too much further. :devil: :) :lol:

Yes, Margaret has put a lot of people off side with her opinions. However, any tennis historian would have to admit, she certainly belongs in a select list of the greatest players in history. :worship: :worship: :worship:
Yes fascinating stuff but this works on a flawed logic.

Now that I've had a look at it again, here's something interesting.

Margaret Court
Wimbledon 3/12 Winning Strike Rate: 25%
USO 5/10 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
French 5/10 Winning Strike Rate: 50%
Aussie 11/13 Winning Strike Rate: 85%

So she played the USO 10 times and played Wimbledon 12 times. Yet she achieved more success at the USO. They're both grass courts. Why did she achieve more success there? :confused: That stat is actually damning for Margaret. It shows that when the best turns up she doesn't win.

Plus using this to consider greatness is flawed. Because when Monica Seles was stabbed her records at GS looked like:

AO: 100%
FO: 75%
WB: 0%
US: 50%

So aside from Wimbledon, her record is almost flawless, making her one of the greatest players ever, BUT the fact that she came back punishes her record. Which is not right.

Sam L
Jul 3rd, 2004, 10:52 AM
I meant to say is that if Monica never came back, she'd be viewed as a much greater player than she is now because of her stats. I don't think that's right.

We need to look beyond stats, and that's what I'm doing with Margaret. Obviously, using stats, for sure, she's the greatest: 24 singles slams and most overall GS in singles, doubles and mixed. :rolleyes: You don't even need to argue.

But I'm looking beyond stats.

chris whiteside
Jul 3rd, 2004, 12:34 PM
Her Australian titles are the very reason why name appears anywhere!


I thought you were making a reasonable case until I read this. How can 13 Wimbledon, French and US singles titles not amount to being one of the greatest?

tennisvideos
Jul 3rd, 2004, 12:46 PM
I meant to say is that if Monica never came back, she'd be viewed as a much greater player than she is now because of her stats. I don't think that's right.

We need to look beyond stats, and that's what I'm doing with Margaret. Obviously, using stats, for sure, she's the greatest: 24 singles slams and most overall GS in singles, doubles and mixed. :rolleyes: You don't even need to argue.

But I'm looking beyond stats.

So what else are you looking at Sam? Margaret held winning H2H over all her peers (not talking about Evert or Navratilova who were really from another era). And aside from a small glitz where she "only" won 25% of the Wimbledon titles she contested, she dominated just about everything else that was on offer all over the world. And I am pretty sure that the fields at the US Open and the French were pretty much on a par with the fields at Wimbledon during the 60s and early 70s.

Why are you trying to drag her record down? What is your agenda?

As for Monica, yes, her record has been tarnished due to a shocking incident out of her control. And let me say Sam, that Monica Seles is one of my favourite players ... since Chris Evert retired no one has brought me such excitement in the womens game. I was DEVASTATED that her career was destroyed. So I can empathise with all of Monica's other fans about the tragedy that befell her. Certainly she is a great, no doubt. But her post stabbing career will unfortunately be held against her overall standing. Yes, life can be cruel and unfair.
:sad: :tape:

chris whiteside
Jul 3rd, 2004, 12:55 PM
I think Tennis Videos statistics make fascinating reading but I am still trying to digest them all. At the moment I am keeping an "open" mind as to the relative merits of the Australian Championships pre-1980 or so.

One thing I would say is that in most polls of this sort there is always a bias towards more modern players. This is just an unfortunate fact of life as people tend to retain recent memories more easily and many will have actually seen the more modern players in action.

I think the only fair way to judge players relative capabilities is to judge on achievements. If Margaret Court or Billie-Jean King came out today they would get blown off court by Serena Williams but if they had all played at the same time then they would have raised and tailored their game to compete, having the advantages of modern technology, fitness regimes etc.

No disrespect to Margaret but my favourite video which I watch a couple of times a week is Ann Jones beating her in the 1969 Wimbledon semi-final. It's strange how so many semis tend to be forgotten even though more often than not they are far better matches than the final.

chris whiteside
Jul 3rd, 2004, 01:01 PM
To Sam L. Women's Tennis owes a lot to Billie-Jean King and I know she eventually did win a French title but her ability overall not to be able to perform as well on clay as other surfaces certainly puts Margaret Court ahead of her in the greatest stakes.

tennisvideos
Jul 3rd, 2004, 03:35 PM
No disrespect to Margaret but my favourite video which I watch a couple of times a week is Ann Jones beating her in the 1969 Wimbledon semi-final. It's strange how so many semis tend to be forgotten even though more often than not they are far better matches than the final.

Chris - I agree totally with you on this. I have mentioned previously in a number of threads that this is one of the greatest matches I have ever seen (not live but on tape). It is an absolute ripper of a match and really an all time classic that no one else has ever mentioned!!!!
:bounce:

Andy T
Jul 5th, 2004, 02:00 PM
I think Tennis Videos statistics make fascinating reading but I am still trying to digest them all. At the moment I am keeping an "open" mind as to the relative merits of the Australian Championships pre-1980 or so.

One thing I would say is that in most polls of this sort there is always a bias towards more modern players. This is just an unfortunate fact of life as people tend to retain recent memories more easily and many will have actually seen the more modern players in action.

I think the only fair way to judge players relative capabilities is to judge on achievements. If Margaret Court or Billie-Jean King came out today they would get blown off court by Serena Williams but if they had all played at the same time then they would have raised and tailored their game to compete, having the advantages of modern technology, fitness regimes etc.

No disrespect to Margaret but my favourite video which I watch a couple of times a week is Ann Jones beating her in the 1969 Wimbledon semi-final. It's strange how so many semis tend to be forgotten even though more often than not they are far better matches than the final.


Chris, I'd love to hear a match summary of that encounter - you should post one in Blast from the Past as many people there would appreciate an account of it, I think.

Ian S
Jul 5th, 2004, 05:58 PM
Obviously it is very difficult to judge different eras. I look back at the style of Evert and find it hard to believe she would not be blasted off the court by today's players. I could not have Graf because I believe she was an exceptional athlete first and tennis player second. If forced to choose I would plump for Billie Jean King who was mentally very tough and had an all-court game which I believe she could have adapted to combat the ferocious hitting of today's players.

daanharmsen
Jul 5th, 2004, 08:48 PM
I voted Hingis, not because over her as tennis player, but her as human. I met her, and she`s a really nice person to talk to. That`s why i voted for her.

Daniel
Jul 6th, 2004, 09:42 AM
Hingis :kiss:

BlinX
Sep 11th, 2004, 07:05 PM
lol this poll is so old :p

bjbasom1
Sep 11th, 2004, 07:19 PM
Martina Navratilova. Name one other women's tennis player who can win a singles match and win major doubles titles in her 40s

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 11th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Martina Navratilova. Name one other women's tennis player who can win a singles match and win major doubles titles in her 40s

Considering that Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons ... all-time record for most WTA Tour Championships ... all-time record for most singles titles ... all-time record for most doubles titles ... all-time record for most consecutive years winning Wimbledon ... all-time record for most longevity at the top of women's tennis ... all-time record for most years between first and last Grand Slam titles in either singles or doubles ---- she sure is undoubtedly the "Greatest Female Player of All Time".

Here we are a decade later remembering that Navratilova has the ALL-TIME record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis. No other player in women's tennis can claim this --- the all-time record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Australian ------------- Margaret Court
French ----------------- Chris Evert
Wimbledon ------------ Martina Navratilova
U.S. Open -------------- Molla Bjurstedt Mallory
WTA Championships --- Martina Navratilova

The years that also made Navratilova the greatest tennis player in women's tennis history were 1980-1986 when she turned 30 ... and then, in the years 1990-1993 when she in her mid 30s had a winning record vs. Graf (including a winning record vs. Graf in Grand Slam events) ... and, then, in the years 2003 and 2004, when Navratilova in her mid to upper 40s ranked in the top 5 to 10 in women's tennis in doubles and won even more Grand Slam titles.

In addition, No other female player in women's tennis history had ever won 10 of the 12 biggest singles events played consecutively other than Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova.

Here's the Top 3 All Time Greats

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Monica Seles (except she was stabbed in the back)


:angel: __________________________________________________ ______________
"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King

William Hunt
Sep 11th, 2004, 10:01 PM
Graff or Navratilova probably are, but still I chose Chris Evert.

Steffifan
Sep 11th, 2004, 11:57 PM
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles
Steffi is the best ever!:) :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :worship: :worship: :) :) :)

selking
Sep 12th, 2004, 12:02 AM
navratilova is the best because she is still plays right now. i dont see steffi's ass anywhere near a court for a competitive match. Navvy has won 167 titles in both singles and double totaling over 300 titles with 50 + grandslam titles. She played in a era that was much more difficult than steffis was where you had many good players compared to steffis era when she won 12 GS after he rival was stabbed by HER fan. NAVRATILOVA IS WITHOUT DOUBT THE BEST EVER.

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 12:10 AM
Steffi has 2 kids?! ..still looks in awesome shape too & recently played in an exhibition match at Athur Ashe Kids Day.....Martina N is still playing but ranked like 370 or so in singles good for a 47 year old woman though in doubles shes in the top ten of course...If they played now Im sure Steffi would win:) I admire Martina N & Evert too they are the top 3 players of all time :)

Oizo
Sep 12th, 2004, 12:54 AM
Steffi, definitely! :worship:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 01:19 AM
navratilova is the best because she is still plays right now. i dont see steffi's ass anywhere near a court for a competitive match. Navvy has won 167 titles in both singles and double totaling over 300 titles with 50 + grandslam titles. She played in a era that was much more difficult than steffis was where you had many good players compared to steffis era when she won 12 GS after he rival was stabbed by HER fan. NAVRATILOVA IS WITHOUT DOUBT THE BEST EVER.


A player who is the greatest of ALL time does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a teenager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young top teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Graf was not the best of all time.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993.

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

After those 2 or 3 good years in the late 1980s for Graf when Navratilova was already in her 30s ---- we saw a mid 30s Navratilova with the better record vs. Graf in the years 1990 through 1993 (including a win for Navratilova in the ONLY match played between Navratilova and Graf at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s).

**Graf NEVER had a winning record vs. Navratilova --- not even once in their careers**

FACTS:

All-time leading singles title holder at Wimbledon in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with nine (9).

All-time leading singles title holder at the WTA Tour Championships in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with eight (8).

Navratilova is the only woman who has the all-time record for most singles titles won at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

The others?

Evert at the French Open.
Mallory at the U.S. Open.
Court at the Australian Open.

Steffi Graf does not have the all-time record for most singles titles at any of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Seles, of course, as a teenager in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.

Seles who was ranked ahead of Graf was also the ONLY player to win 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1990, 1991 and 1992 .. then, she started off 1993 by winning the Australian Open over Steffi Graf.

Seles who was tearing up the tennis records left and right won 11 of the 15 biggest events in women's tennis during those 3 years (April 1990 to April 1993). No other player in the women's tennis history has ever won 10 of the 12 biggest singles events over a 2.5 year period.

That is why Martina Navratilova is unarguably the best woman tennis player in tennis history when you consider the truth of Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993. :angel:

nari
Sep 12th, 2004, 01:54 AM
:lol: drawed into by the title and find "You have already voted on this poll"
nice to see the thread again :lol:

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 02:55 AM
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :) :) :) :) :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :angel: :wavey:
Born:June 14, 1969 in Mannheim, Germany
Citizenship:Germany
Handed:Right

BIOGRAPHY
Steffi Graf won an incredible 107 career WTA singles titles and 11 career doubles titles. She captured an astounding 22 Grand Slam singles titles: 4 Australian Open Championships (1988, '89, '90, '94); 6 French Open Titles (1987, '88, '93, '95, '96, '99); 7 Wimbledon Championships (1988, '89, '91, '92, '93, '95, '96); and 5 US Open Championships (1988, '89, '93, '95, '96). Moreover, Graf made nine additional Grand Slam final appearances: 1993 Australian; 1989, '90, '92 French; 1987, '99 Wimbledon; and 1987, '90, '94 US Open. Overall she reached 31 Grand Slam singles finals. At the conclusion of the 1995 US Open, she became the only player - male or female - to win each of the four major singles titles at least 4 times.

In 1988, Graf achieved the 'Grand Slam' - winning the Big Four in the same calendar year. Furthermore, Graf achieved the 'Golden Grand Slam' by winning the Singles Gold Medal at the 1988 Olympic Games in Seoul. Graf again held all four titles consecutively - 1993 French, Wimbledon, US Open and the 1994 Australian.

Graf, 34, is a former World No. 1 ranked player, spending a massive total of 377 (non-consecutive) weeks at No. 1, reigning for a record 186 consecutive weeks (August 17, 1987- March 10, 1991) - more than any man or woman.

Graf was ranked in the World Top 10 from 1985 through 1996, and again in 1998-'99. She holds the record for the longest consecutive stretch in the World's Top 2 - 10 years, 3 months, 1 week - March 2, 1987 through June 8, 1997. Her career win-loss record is an impressive 902-115. She was honored as the WTA Player of the Year eight times (1987-'90, '93-'96) and was named the ITF World Champion a record seven times (1987-'90, '93, '95, '96).

Graf was a member of the German Fed Cup team for 7 years (1986-'87, '89, '91-'93, '96). She has Germany's record of most final wins (3-0), leading Germany to victory in 1987 and 1992. Graf completed her Fed Cup career playing in 20 ties, with an overall win-loss record of 28-4 (20-2 in singles and 8-2 in doubles). Graf was also a member of the German Olympic team in 1984 (Gold - tennis was a demonstration sport), 1988 (Gold), and 1992 (Silver).

On August 13, 1999, Graf was the No. 3 world-ranked player, and the highest ranked player ever to announce retirement from the sport (since computer rankings began in November 1975). Off the court, Graf founded The Steffi Graf Youth Tennis Center in Leipzig, Germany (1991). She is also the Founder and active Chairperson of Children for Tomorrow, a non-profit foundation with the goal of implementing and developing projects to support children who have been traumatized by war or other crises.



"When someone asks me who was the greatest player I've ever seen in the last 25 years, I'd say Steffi Graf, with no hesitation,'' Evert said at a Hall dinner Saturday night.

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:00 AM
:lol: drawed into by the title and find "You have already voted on this poll"
nice to see the thread again :lol:

Having fun? ;)

Here's some excerpts of an interview with Steffi Graf ( November 1993) 8 months after the violent stabbing of Monica Seles and after winning consecutive slams namely the 1993 French, 1993 Wimbledon and the 1993 US Open and taking over the number one ranking from the injured Seles.

Graf lost the 1993 Australian Open Finals to Seles three months before the stabbing.

November 1993
Steffi Graf
Interview by: DIETER SCHÖN
New York

WELT am SONNTAG: Ms. Graf, 1993 was very successful for you. Are you
satisfied?

Graf: To win three of four Grand Slams and to be in the final of the
other - that is extremely good. Yes, I am satisfied.

WaS: Though your success will also always be compared with what might
have been if Monica Seles hadn't been injured. How do you handle that?

Graf: I see it quite realistically. Of course the people are right,
and I might not have won one title or another, if Monica would have
played........

WaS: Do you regret that Monica Seles isn't around at the moment?

Graf: That is correct. When the number one is missing, something is missing...... :angel:


"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King

nari
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:03 AM
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :) :) :) :) :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :angel: :wavey:
Born:June 14, 1969 in Mannheim, Germany
Citizenship:Germany
Handed:Right

BIOGRAPHY
Steffi Graf won an incredible 107 career WTA singles titles and 11 career doubles titles. She captured an astounding 22 Grand Slam singles titles: 4 Australian Open Championships (1988, '89, '90, '94); 6 French Open Titles (1987, '88, '93, '95, '96, '99); 7 Wimbledon Championships (1988, '89, '91, '92, '93, '95, '96); and 5 US Open Championships (1988, '89, '93, '95, '96). Moreover, Graf made nine additional Grand Slam final appearances: 1993 Australian; 1989, '90, '92 French; 1987, '99 Wimbledon; and 1987, '90, '94 US Open. Overall she reached 31 Grand Slam singles finals. At the conclusion of the 1995 US Open, she became the only player - male or female - to win each of the four major singles titles at least 4 times.

In 1988, Graf achieved the 'Grand Slam' - winning the Big Four in the same calendar year. Furthermore, Graf achieved the 'Golden Grand Slam' by winning the Singles Gold Medal at the 1988 Olympic Games in Seoul. Graf again held all four titles consecutively - 1993 French, Wimbledon, US Open and the 1994 Australian.

Graf, 34, is a former World No. 1 ranked player, spending a massive total of 377 (non-consecutive) weeks at No. 1, reigning for a record 186 consecutive weeks (August 17, 1987- March 10, 1991) - more than any man or woman.

Graf was ranked in the World Top 10 from 1985 through 1996, and again in 1998-'99. She holds the record for the longest consecutive stretch in the World's Top 2 - 10 years, 3 months, 1 week - March 2, 1987 through June 8, 1997. Her career win-loss record is an impressive 902-115. She was honored as the WTA Player of the Year eight times (1987-'90, '93-'96) and was named the ITF World Champion a record seven times (1987-'90, '93, '95, '96).

Graf was a member of the German Fed Cup team for 7 years (1986-'87, '89, '91-'93, '96). She has Germany's record of most final wins (3-0), leading Germany to victory in 1987 and 1992. Graf completed her Fed Cup career playing in 20 ties, with an overall win-loss record of 28-4 (20-2 in singles and 8-2 in doubles). Graf was also a member of the German Olympic team in 1984 (Gold - tennis was a demonstration sport), 1988 (Gold), and 1992 (Silver).

On August 13, 1999, Graf was the No. 3 world-ranked player, and the highest ranked player ever to announce retirement from the sport (since computer rankings began in November 1975). Off the court, Graf founded The Steffi Graf Youth Tennis Center in Leipzig, Germany (1991). She is also the Founder and active Chairperson of Children for Tomorrow, a non-profit foundation with the goal of implementing and developing projects to support children who have been traumatized by war or other crises.



"When someone asks me who was the greatest player I've ever seen in the last 25 years, I'd say Steffi Graf, with no hesitation,'' Evert said at a Hall dinner Saturday night.
:lol: steffifan,you are on a way to a lot of bad reps :wavey:
:hearts:steffi :hearts:

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:06 AM
Steffi Graf 113 41.39%
Martina Navratilova 72 26.37%
looks like Steffi is winning the poll despite Martina & Seles fans thinking otherwise huh....
I think the top 10 all time are
1. Steffi
2. Martina N
3.Chris Evert
4. Margaret Court
5. Billie Jean King
6. Monica Seles
7. Martina Hingis
8. Serena Williams
9. L Davenport
10.Venus Williams

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:22 AM
navratilova is the best because she is still plays right now. i dont see steffi's ass anywhere near a court for a competitive match. Navvy has won 167 titles in both singles and double totaling over 300 titles with 50 + grandslam titles. She played in a era that was much more difficult than steffis was where you had many good players compared to steffis era when she won 12 GS after he rival was stabbed by HER fan. NAVRATILOVA IS WITHOUT DOUBT THE BEST EVER.

In 1990, Monica Seles defeated Gabriela Sabatini 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 6-4, 6-2 for a first-ever five-set WTA TOUR Championships final. It was the first women's match to go five sets since theU.S. National Championships in 1901.

MONICA SELES STATS AND FACTS (Before the stabbing of the jealous Graf fan)33 career titles; 258-30 career record.

Grand Slam Win/Loss Record: 79-6 Australian Open 21-0 French Open 26-1 Wimbledon 13-3 U.S. Open 19-2

Seles had already won 8 Grand Slams and yet she played 20 less Grand Slams than second ranked Graf. Graf only won 11 Grand Slams after 10 years on the women's tour.

Seles had reached the final of her last eight Grand Slams, winning seven ofthem.Seles had a 3-1 advantage in head to head over second ranked Graf in Grand Slam Finals matches.

Seles became the youngest Grand Slam Champion in 103 years. Not since 15 year old Lottie Dod won Wimbledon in 1887 had tennis seen such a youthful champion.

Seles toppled Graf from number one ranking in March 11, 1991 making her the youngest woman to ever been ranked number one in tennis history.

Seles was the undisputed number one player in the world until the tragedy in Germany.

Seles won three consecutive French Open Crowns in 1990, 1991, 1992 , becoming the first woman to achieved that historic feat in 55 years. Hilde Sperling won from 1935-1937.

Seles won her third consecutive Austrlian Open Crown in January of 1993 beating second ranked Steffi Graf in the finals.

Since turning pro at 15, Seles has won 13 of the 35 tournaments she has entered. By comparison, in their first three full years as pros, Tracy Austin won 10 titles, Andrea Jaeger nine, Navratilova six, Sabatini five and Graf zero.

Seles owns the best winning percentage at any single Grand Slam in tennis history : 21-0 at the Australian Open.

Seles ranks second behind Chris Evert (.899) in match winning percentage with an.895 average, Graf is third (.894).

Seles' most dominating period occurred from Jan. 1991-Feb. 21, 1993:159-12 record.929 winning percentage 22 titles 55-1 record in Grand Slam tournament matches reached 33 of 34 finals.

Only Evert had a better first four years than Seles on the Tour in the Open era while Graf is 5th.

PLAYER YEARS RECORD (%) TITLES MONEY

Evert '71-74 255-25 (.911) 39 $456,212 Seles '89-92 231-25 (.902) 30 6,956,693Sabatini '85-88 232-71 (.765) 9 1,885,952Capriati '90-93 149-45 (.768) 6 1,491,823Graf '83-86 144-48 (.750) 8 841,094Navratilova '73-76 178-68 (.723) 7 352,458Sanchez Vicario '87-90 134-60 (.690) 5 1,243,030

Prior to the stabbing in 1993, Seles' last title was the VirginiaSlims of Chicago on Feb. 14, 1993 and her last Grand Slam title was at the 1993 Australian Open Championships.

Prior to the tournament in Hamburg, Germany, where she was attacked during herquarterfinal match against Maggie Maleeva on April 30, 1993, Seles had not played on the Tour for nine weeks due to the flu.

Hamburg was Seles' first tournament back after her 63-day lay-off. Seles surpassed the $7 million mark in career prize money in January of 1993,only the fourth woman to do so (now there are six).

Seles' title percentage of .516 (33 titles in 64 events) ranks second in theOpen era. Evert leads with a .518 average (157 of 303) and Graf is third at .511(92 of 180).

Gunther Parche ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open when he stabbed this teenage phenom in the back with a sharp knife.

From 1990 through April 1993 Steffi Graf was limited to winning only 3 of the major singles titles in women's tennis (3 out of 16 played during this time) ... Monica Seles, as a 2-handed teenage phenom, won 11 of these 16 singles titles (including 2 of the 5 in 1990 .. 4 of the 5 in 1991 .. 4 of the 5 in 1992 .. and the only 1 prior to the stabbing in 1993). :angel:

"I've never seen someone better than Monica Seles." - Mary Carillo

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:24 AM
dont worry Nari you have lots of bad reps from me too hehe:)

nari
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:27 AM
dont worry Nari you have lots of bad reps from me too hehe:)
:crying2:

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:35 AM
You Seles/Martina fans are disillusioned you cant accept the fact that Graf is the best being a 48 year old top 10 doubles player does not give Martina best ever status
22 slams 4 more than Evert & Martina...Martina has a losing record against Seles(7-10) while Graf has a winning record against her(10-5)


The 22 Grand Slam Titles:

YEAR LOCATION OPPONENT RESULT
1987 Paris M. Navratilova 6:4, 4:6, 8:6
1988 Melbourne C. Evert 6:1, 7:6
Paris N. Zwereva 6:0, 6:0
Wimbledon M. Navratilova 5:7, 6:2, 6:1
US Open G. Sabatini 6:3, 3:6, 6:1
1989 Melbourne H. Sukova 6:4, 6:4
Wimbledon M. Navratilova 6:2, 6:7, 6:1
US Open M. Navratilova 3:6, 7:5, 6:1
1990 Melbourne M.J. Fernandez 6:3, 6:4
1991 Wimbledon G. Sabatini 6:4, 3:6, 8:6
1992 Wimbledon M. Seles 6:2, 6:1
1993 Paris M.J. Fernandez 4:6, 6:2, 6:4
Wimbledon J. Novotna 7:6, 1:6, 6:4
US Open H. Sukova 6:3, 6:3
1994 Melbourne A. Sanchez-Vicario 6:0, 6:2
1995 Paris A. Sanchez-Vicario 7:5, 4:6, 6:0
Wimbledon A. Sanchez-Vicario 4:6, 6:1, 7:5
US Open M. Seles 7:6, 0:6, 6:3
1996 Paris A. Sanchez-Vicario 6:3, 6:7, 10:8
Wimbledon A. Sanchez-Vicario 6:3, 7:5
US Open M. Seles 7:5, 6:4
1999 Paris M. Hingis 4:6, 7:5, 6:2
Steffi rocks...Jen too!:) :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :) :) :) :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :angel: :angel: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:37 AM
Words, words, words........"Eliza Doolittle wailed in My Fair Lady, and we know how she felt ;)

:angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:40 AM
You Seles/Martina fans are disillusioned you cant accept the fact that Graf is the best being a 48 year old top 10 doubles player does not give Martina best ever status
22 slams 4 more than Evert & Martina...Martina has a losing record against Seles(7-10) while Graf has a winning record against her(10-5)


The 22 Grand Slam Titles:

YEAR LOCATION OPPONENT RESULT
1987 Paris M. Navratilova 6:4, 4:6, 8:6
1988 Melbourne C. Evert 6:1, 7:6
Paris N. Zwereva 6:0, 6:0
Wimbledon M. Navratilova 5:7, 6:2, 6:1
US Open G. Sabatini 6:3, 3:6, 6:1
1989 Melbourne H. Sukova 6:4, 6:4
Wimbledon M. Navratilova 6:2, 6:7, 6:1
US Open M. Navratilova 3:6, 7:5, 6:1
1990 Melbourne M.J. Fernandez 6:3, 6:4
1991 Wimbledon G. Sabatini 6:4, 3:6, 8:6
1992 Wimbledon M. Seles 6:2, 6:1
1993 Paris M.J. Fernandez 4:6, 6:2, 6:4
Wimbledon J. Novotna 7:6, 1:6, 6:4
US Open H. Sukova 6:3, 6:3
1994 Melbourne A. Sanchez-Vicario 6:0, 6:2
1995 Paris A. Sanchez-Vicario 7:5, 4:6, 6:0
Wimbledon A. Sanchez-Vicario 4:6, 6:1, 7:5
US Open M. Seles 7:6, 0:6, 6:3
1996 Paris A. Sanchez-Vicario 6:3, 6:7, 10:8
Wimbledon A. Sanchez-Vicario 6:3, 7:5
US Open M. Seles 7:5, 6:4
1999 Paris M. Hingis 4:6, 7:5, 6:2
Steffi rocks...Jen too!:) :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :) :) :) :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :angel: :angel: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:


Steffi just needs to thank her lucky stars that she was able to have an overly inflated record without having anything to give up for it. :angel:

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:40 AM
"I use to think Martina was the best ever but now I have to say Steffi is the best all court all surface singles player of all time"-Billie Jean King

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:42 AM
"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." -Latest quote from Billy Jean King

:angel:

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:50 AM
how exactly is reputation sterling sweetie? PLLEEEEASEEE Billy=Billie spell it right if youre going to quote one lesbian praising another:)

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 03:51 AM
Steffi just needs to thank her lucky stars that she was able to have an overly inflated record without having anything to give up for it. -ladiez champion

sounds like sour grapes to me sweetie:0

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 04:00 AM
whare are you ladiez champion ? not going to defend against me ?..........Steffi won 902 matches lost 115 22-9 in slam finals lets see seles stats.....hmmmm 595-122 Steffi won more than 300 more matches than Seles and lost seven fewer matches...53 titles for Seles....107 for Steffi

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 05:28 AM
whare are you ladiez champion ? not going to defend against me ?..........Steffi won 902 matches lost 115 22-9 in slam finals lets see seles stats.....hmmmm 595-122 Steffi won more than 300 more matches than Seles and lost seven fewer matches...53 titles for Seles....107 for Steffi

Stop spinning the facts with highly inaccurate historical information and btw, this is getting so redundant and boooooooooring.

The bottom line : Graf's record is overly inflated and Seles' record is overly deflated because of a jealous Graf fan named Gunther Parche....and EVERYBODY in the world knows about it.....Haven't you noticed it yet? When people talk or write about the career of Steffi Graf, the Seles Tragedy and Parche is always the focal point of discussion....always casting a gloomy shadow....Even Graf's ultimate glory day feature on ESPN Century right before her induction to the hall of fame.... was not spared....

Graf is ineligible for consideration as the all-time greatest in women's tennis due to the dominance of the teenage Seles in the 30 months between October 1990 and April 1993 when a Graf supporter stabbed the #1 (teenage Monica Seles) in the back with a sharp knife.

To be the best, you have to be the best -- the most dominant -- in the middle of your career. If you are not CLEARLY the very, very best of your era (the small 10% or so of the entire 130 year history of the sport) ... then HOW can you be the best of all time?

You have to be the undisputed best player of your era -- and in the MIDDLE of your career (which Steffi Graf most obviously was not in the 30 months running from October 1990 through April 1993 when the #1 teenager was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan) -- if you want to even be in the running for consideration as the all-time greatest.

The all-time greatest champion does not need knifes in the backs of better players who are in their teenage years while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in the sport over a 2 or 3 year period.

It was SELES who was dominant as a teenage phenom in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until a Graf fan had had enough and stabbed her in the back with a knife.

For all these reasons and more, Martina Navratilova is unarguably the greatest female tennis player EVER followed by Chris Evert....As for Steffi, she is no doubt among the very best players in women's tennis in recent years or let's just say past 25 years :angel:


"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 05:51 AM
how exactly is reputation sterling sweetie? PLLEEEEASEEE Billy=Billie spell it right if youre going to quote one lesbian praising another:)

Billie Jean Moffitt, that was her REAL name :rolleyes: :angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 05:59 AM
whare are you ladiez champion ? not going to defend against me ?..........Steffi won 902 matches lost 115 22-9 in slam finals lets see seles stats.....hmmmm 595-122 Steffi won more than 300 more matches than Seles and lost seven fewer matches...53 titles for Seles....107 for Steffi

What's there to defend? Don't you have a life outside of here? EVERYBODY in the world already knows about the truth on the Navratilova, Seles and Graf Era. Frankly, I'm just doing this discussions here for FUN. ;) :angel:

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 06:58 AM
Graf knocked Evert & Martina from #1 permanently in 1987 Steffi had the #1 ranking for 377 weeks Id love to Steffi play Martina today Im sure she could still kick her old butt the #64 player beat Martina twice this year Martina is only top 10 in doubles not singles not even in the top 300.....I do like Seles it was a tragedy but the record books wont put an asterik beside of Steffi's great accomplishments because some crazy guy stabbed Seles...Monica came back as co #1 but never truly regained her form sadly thats the truth
sweet dreams to ya:) ;)

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 07:07 AM
Numbers dont lie & Im not spinning anything and as far as having a life youre on this webboard 24/7 sweetie..........Im having loads of fun as well dear:) :lol:
Martina was a great player so was Chris & Seles.... Seles after 1993 was a ghost of her former self its not Steffis fault she was stabbed blame Parche he did it....Steffi improved her game & dominated tennis for over a decade overpowering generations of players Seles & Martina N among them as well as Seles Hingis Williams sister Davenport etc
Chris Evert hails her as the best ever..King did too....Austin does too...Carillo calls Steffi's forehand the best shot ever in the game & Steffi as the best ever
Love live the Queen....Steffi Graf:) :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :) :) :) :) :angel: :angel: :angel: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Seles the best ever a joke!............... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 07:49 AM
Graf knocked Evert & Martina from #1 permanently in 1987 Steffi had the #1 ranking for 377 weeks Id love to Steffi play Martina today Im sure she could still kick her old butt the #64 player beat Martina twice this year Martina is only top 10 in doubles not singles not even in the top 300.....I do like Seles it was a tragedy but the record books wont put an asterik beside of Steffi's great accomplishments because some crazy guy stabbed Seles...Monica came back as co #1 but never truly regained her form sadly thats the truth
sweet dreams to ya:) ;)

Graf knocked off an obviously aging Navratilova and Evert who were already in their mid 30's and in the twilight of their careers. And yet, during the four (4) years between January 1990 and December 1993 Navratilova had the winning record vs. Steffi Graf.Navratilova in her mid 30s won her only match vs. Graf at a Grand Slam events during the 1990s.

A player in her mid 30s --- well past her prime --- and in her 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th year on the WTA Tour (Navratilova) to have a winning record against Graf in the 4 year period of 1990 - 1993.
Navratilova was in her 30s already ... how good was Graf in her 30s? Ooops, she did not even play in her 30s, did she?

This is part of what makes Navratilova the better tennis player historically ... there Navratilova was in her 20th year on Tour and she was STILL beating Graf.

What is impressive for Navratilova -- in addition to the fact that she is in the top 10 of doubles currently with her 48th birthday just 2 months away -- is the fact that when the ONLY Grand Slam match played between Navratilova and Graf during the 1990s (Navratilova was turning 35 years of age that year) was won by Navratilova ... and that in the years when Navratilova was turning 35, 36, 37 and 38 in those years 1990-1994 and she never had a losing record during the 1990s to Graf.

The DIFFERENCE, again, is that Navratilova was in her 30s after 1986 and yet during the 1990s Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf in Grand Slam events AND for the years 1990-1993 Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf overall.

Navratilova was in her mid 30s during these years while Graf was in her 20s.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

I know credibility has never been anything you have strived for on here ... but the fact is the FIRST match Graf ever played against Navratilova was when Graf was 16 years, 3 months of age and Navratilova close to turning 29 years of age.

Graf's first match win vs. Navratilova was when Graf was within 1 month of her 17th birthday and when Navratilova was closer to 30 than she was to 29.

Steffi was almost 18 years of age before she was able to win back to back matches against Navratilova for the first time. Of course, Navratilova was over 30 years of age by then.

The first time that Graf was able to win MORE than just 2 matches consecutively vs. Navratilova was when Graf was over 19 years of age and when Navratilova was close to the age Andre Agassi is now.

In addition, Graf never faced a real and serious challenge early in her career with, the obviously AGING Navratilova and Evert. And when she finally did faced a worthy formidable opponent in the middle of her career in teen phenom Monica Seles, she suddenly was DUMPED to NUMBER TWO and was only capable of winning 3 of the 16 biggest events played at the height of her rivalry before the stabbing with her Yugoslav turned American rival (1990-1993).

Finally, Navratilova NEVER benefitted from her chief rivals( Chris Evert or Steffi Graf) being stabbed in the back with a knife by a demented fan. :angel:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 08:04 AM
Numbers dont lie & Im not spinning anything and as far as having a life youre on this webboard 24/7 sweetie..........Im having loads of fun as well dear:) :lol:
Martina was a great player so was Chris & Seles.... Seles after 1993 was a ghost of her former self its not Steffis fault she was stabbed blame Parche he did it....Steffi improved her game & dominated tennis for over a decade overpowering generations of players Seles & Martina N among them as well as Seles Hingis Williams sister Davenport etc
Chris Evert hails her as the best ever..King did too....Austin does too...Carillo calls Steffi's forehand the best shot ever in the game & Steffi as the best ever
Love live the Queen....Steffi Graf:) :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :) :) :) :) :angel: :angel: :angel: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Seles the best ever a joke!............... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The biggest RIDICULE in sports history is your pathetic claim that Graf is the best ever. Since when? ..BTW, Your Queen of **Hollow Slams**(asterisk)** is long RETIRED and FORGOTTEN :angel:

Steffi Graf's Career after the Seles Tragedy.......

Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once World number one Seles was gone. :angel:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King

nari
Sep 12th, 2004, 09:13 AM
The biggest RIDICULE in sports history is your pathetic claim that Graf is the best ever. Since when? ..BTW, Your Queen of **Hollow Slams**(asterisk)** is long RETIRED and FORGOTTEN :angel:

Steffi Graf's Career after the Seles Tragedyl.......

Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once World number one Seles was gone. :angel:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King
;) at least you are obsessed with steffi graf :lol:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 12th, 2004, 09:41 AM
;) at least you are obsessed with steffi graf :lol:

who is steffi graf? never heard of her. ;) But anyhow, this discussion is getting so boooooooooooring :angel:

nari
Sep 12th, 2004, 09:56 AM
who is steffi graf? never heard of her. ;) But anyhow, this discussion is getting so boooooooooooring :angel:
:wavey:

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 06:30 PM
The biggest RIDICULE in sports history is your pathetic claim that Graf is the best ever. Since when? ..BTW, Your Queen of **Hollow Slams**(asterisk)** is long RETIRED and FORGOTTEN -you have cerebral problems

Steffi Graf's Career after the Seles Tragedy is much better than Seles' career :).......
Steffi forgotten oh then why was she the ONLY woman played into the tennis hall of fame this year where oh where is your grunting moaning Monica now? unranked & will retire soon due to injuries .......

your replies are as easy to smash away for winners as Elena second serve:)
Go STEFFI!:)

Steffifan
Sep 12th, 2004, 06:31 PM
by the way if there are so many Martina/Seles fans on this board why is Steffi winning the poll by a large margin? Go Steffi Monica was a pretender to your throne as Queen of the Courts forever:)

MLF
Sep 12th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Martina Navratilova is the greatest female player of all time. Heck, she was even able to take out a 24 year old Steffi Graf when she was 36 years old.

Chrissie-fan
Sep 12th, 2004, 07:05 PM
It's an impossible question to answer really even though as I'm a fan I couldn't resist voting for Chris. There's no way of knowing how Chris or Martina Navratilova (let alone Suzanne Lenglen or Little Mo) would have done against the greats of today. All to often one hears that the contemporary players are the best ever because they hit the ball so much harder now and,say,Serena would blow players like Chrissie or Evonne of the court if they were around today. Well,that's probably true,but what if we look at it the other way round? Would Serena be better than the greats from the past if she had to play them with a wooden racket? I seriously doubt it. It's almost like a different sport now,which makes it even more impossible to compare. Great fun though,I'm all for it.

Gaston

chris whiteside
Sep 12th, 2004, 09:25 PM
Assuming they all have access to the same technology I would go for Maureen Connolly but of the players listed to choose from, Margaret Court.

Steffifan
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:35 AM
Martina couldnt beat Steffi her last full year in singles though Steffi was too dominant over Martina,Chris,Davenport,Seles,Williams sisters I think she has to be #1 of all time...though I respect Seles & Martina & Chris very much its tough to say who is the best we could argue forver they are all awesome champions! :)

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:33 AM
by the way if there are so many Martina/Seles fans on this board why is Steffi winning the poll by a large margin? Go Steffi Monica was a pretender to your throne as Queen of the Courts forever:)

Of course, since most of these RARE breed of Graf fans in this board has multiple screenames to their credit. Voting OBSSESSIVELY for Steffi 24/7 in this highly INSIGNIFICANT poll is the "highlight" of their daily lives. ;)

Monica and Martina admirers are just too classy to stoop down to that LEVEL. There's no baggage of INSECURITIES knowing Seles and Navratilova came by it HONESTLY. What really matters most is that the WORLD already knows the real truth on the Seles, Navratilova, Graf saga.

Just as Steffi's 1/2 slams are ***HOLLOW***, the numbers in this poll is also VERY far from the REAL truth. In fact, downright funny :angel:

Graf is obviously one of best female tennis players in recent years but let's be HONEST with it. "Steffi Graf was and never will be the best of all time...far from it.... not even close".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:36 AM
It's an impossible question to answer really even though as I'm a fan I couldn't resist voting for Chris. There's no way of knowing how Chris or Martina Navratilova (let alone Suzanne Lenglen or Little Mo) would have done against the greats of today. All to often one hears that the contemporary players are the best ever because they hit the ball so much harder now and,say,Serena would blow players like Chrissie or Evonne of the court if they were around today. Well,that's probably true,but what if we look at it the other way round? Would Serena be better than the greats from the past if she had to play them with a wooden racket? I seriously doubt it. It's almost like a different sport now,which makes it even more impossible to compare. Great fun though,I'm all for it.

Gaston

newbie huh? hi steffi ;) :angel:

nari
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:39 AM
Of course, since most of these RARE breed of Graf fans in this board has multiple screenames to their credit. Voting OBSSESSIVELY for Steffi 24/7 in this highly INSIGNIFICANT poll is the "highlight" of their daily lives. ;)

Monica and Martina admirers are just too classy to stoop down to that LEVEL. There's no baggage of INSECURITIES knowing Seles and Navratilova came by it HONESTLY. What really matters most is that the WORLD already knows the real truth on the Seles, Navratilova, Graf saga.

Just as Steffi's slams are ***HOLLOW***, the numbers in these poll is also VERY far from the REAL truth. In fact, downright funny :angel:

The truth is that Steffi Graf was and never will be the best of all time...far from it.... not even close.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King
:lol: you must be an expert at multiple screenames

Steffifan
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:40 AM
Im just Steffifan & I only voted once for her ok:) Anyways Im not trying to be too evil like Serena fans but Steffi simply is best ok:) I think Seles is great & a courageous champion & Martina & Chrissie are awesome too but Steffi is the best ever!:)

Last updated: August 13 1999

These tables are presented for those interested.
These stats will not be updated during a tournament - only after.

Steffi's Win/Loss Record by Surface

Wins Losses Percentage
Hard Courts 343 40 89.6%
Clay Courts 285 36 88.8%
Grass Courts 85 15 84.9%
Indoor Courts 189 24 88.7%

TOTAL 902 115 88.7%

Steffi's Win/Loss Record by Year

Wins Losses Percentage
1982 0 1 0.0%
1983 21 15 58.3%
1984 19 14 57.6%
1985 40 13 75.5%
1986 64 6 91.4%
1987 75 2 97.4%
1988 72 3 96.0%
1989 86 2 97.7%
1990 72 5 93.5%
1991 65 8 89.0%
1992 71 7 91.0%
1993 76 6 92.7%
1994 58 6 90.6%
1995 47 2 95.9%
1996 54 4 93.1%
1997 16 3 84.2%
1998 33 9 78.6%
1999 33 9 78.6%

902 115

Steffi's Win/Loss Record by Age

Wins Losses Percentage
13 7 6 53.8%
14 21 15 58.3%
15 32 16 66.7%
16 55 10 84.6%
17 68 2 97.1%
18 74 4 94.9%
19 79 3 96.3%
20 72 2 97.3%
21 77 9 89.5%
22 60 6 90.9%
23 80 7 92.0%
24 78 4 95.1%
25 41 4 91.1%
26 48 4 92.3%
27 44 5 89.8%
28 7 2 77.8%
29 53 14 79.1%
30 6 2 75.0%

902 115

Steffi's Win/Loss Record by Opponent's Dexterity

Wins Losses Percentage
Left Handers 76 20 79.2%
Right Handers 825 95 89.7%

902 115

Steffi's Win/Loss Record by Countries Played in

Wins Losses Percentage
Australia 54 11 83.1%
Austria 2 0 100.0%
Canada 20 3 87.0%
Czech Republic 2 0 100.0%
France 95 10 90.5%
Germany 144 17 89.4%
Italy 7 3 70.0%
Japan 26 4 86.7%
Korea 5 0 100.0%
Spain 5 1 83.3%
Switzerland 30 1 96.8%
U.K. 116 14 89.2%
U.S.A. 396 51 88.6%

902 115 88.7%

Steffi's Win/Loss Record by Opponent's Nationality

Wins Losses Percentage
Argentina 56 12 82.1%
Australia 21 5 80.8%
Austria 22 0 100.0%
Belgium 6 1 85.7%
Belarus 20 1 95.2%
Brazil 4 0 100.0%
Bulgaria 19 0 100.0%
Canada 18 0 100.0%
Croatia 10 0 100.0%
Czech Republic 78 6 92.9%
Denmark 3 0 100.0%
Finland 2 0 100.0%
France 63 6 91.3%
Georgia 6 0 100.0%
Germany 62 4 93.9%
Greece 3 1 75.0%
Hungary 9 0 100.0%
Indonesia 4 0 100.0%
Italy 24 2 92.3%
Japan 24 2 92.3%
Korea 1 0 100.0%
Latvia 6 0 100.0%
Mexico 1 0 100.0%
Netherlands 21 0 100.0%
New Zealand 1 0 100.0%
Norway 1 0 100.0%
Peru 5 0 100.0%
Poland 1 0 100.0%
Romania 4 0 100.0%
Russia 6 1 83.3%
Slovakia 12 0 100.0%
South Africa 26 7 78.8%
Spain 46 10 82.1%
Sweden 11 2 83.3%
Switzerland 28 3 90.0%
Thailand 1 0 100.0%
Ukraine 2 0 100.0%
U.K. 24 5 82.8%
U.S.A. 245 46 84.2%
Yugoslavia 5 1 83.3%
Zimbabwe 1 0 100.0%

902 115

Steffi's Win/Loss Record in Three Set Matches

Wins Losses Percentage
158 52 75.2%


Steffi's Win/Loss Record in Matches that included Tiebreaks

Note that this is NOT Steffi's tiebreak record but is her record in
matches that featured tiebreak sets

Wins Losses Percentage
101 31 76.5%


Steffi's Win/Loss Record in Finals played

Wins Losses Percentage
108 30 78.3%


Go Jenny & Steffi youre simply the best!:)

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:41 AM
:lol: you must be an expert at multiple screenames

:wavey: :angel:

Steffifan
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:48 AM
Ill play nice tonight Good night Seles people Long live the Queen Steffi Marie Graf:)
Good night People:)

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:53 AM
Martina Navratilova was born on October. 18, 1956, in Prague, Czechoslovakia, and became a U.S. citizen in 1981, after defecting six years earlier. She was raised by her mother, Jana, and stepfather, Mirek Navratil, whose name she took. Unarguably the greatest player of all time, she was grandly inducted into the Tennis Hall of Fame in 2000.

She first displayed her talent as a 16-year-old, in 1973 at the French Open, when she defeated the experienced Nancy Richey and then reached the quarterfinals without being seeded. Her intense rivalry with another legend, Chris Evert started the same year at Ohio at an indoor tourney.

The 140 lb., 5’8” Navratilova made extreme fitness her aim, following a computer-generated regimen in training and diet. Evert was now not only her friend and role model but a rival who had to be defeated every time they met. When Evert was in top form, their track record read 21-4, but Navratilova won their last encounter in Chicago in 1988 to wind up with a 37-43 edge. Three years later, Navratilova also overtook Evert’s record 157 pro singles tournament victories.

Navratilova is undoubtedly the greatest female grasscourt player in Wimbledon history. In fact, her best performances have come at the Mecca of Lawn Tennis, the Centre Court at Wimbledon. In 1990 she won her ninth singles title there, beating the previous best of eight by Helen Wills Moody in 1938.
She began her run at Moody beating top-seeded Evert, 2-6, 6-4, 7-5, in the 1978 final.

Navratilova then reeled off victories in the ladies’ singles for six successive years (1982 to 1987), snapping Suzanne Lenglen's mark of five (1919-23). Navratilova also won the 1990 crown in her 11th final. She played one more singles final at the Center Court in 1994, at the age of 37, after which she bid adieu.

Navratilova also won four U.S Open titles, three Australian and two French singles.

Navratilova, however, did register a doubles Grand Slam with Pam Shriver in 1984. Perhaps the greatest of all teams, Navratilova-Shriver won 20 major titles. In 1987 she made a rare triple at the U.S. Open (singles, doubles, mixed), only the third time in the open era of Tennis.

Martina continues to play doubles and mixed doubles at Grand Slam tournaments, having won titles at the Australian Open and Wimbledon last year, partnering India’s Leander Paes. The 46-year-old legend has now amassed 20 Wimbledon titles, the same as record holder Billie Jean King.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 10:39 AM
The biggest RIDICULE in sports history is your pathetic claim that Graf is the best ever. Since when? ..BTW, Your Queen of **Hollow Slams**(asterisk)** is long RETIRED and FORGOTTEN -you have cerebral problems

Steffi Graf's Career after the Seles Tragedy is much better than Seles' career :).......
Steffi forgotten oh then why was she the ONLY woman played into the tennis hall of fame this year where oh where is your grunting moaning Monica now? unranked & will retire soon due to injuries .......

your replies are as easy to smash away for winners as Elena second serve:)
Go STEFFI!:)

Steffi Graf's Career after the Hamburg tragedy is much better than Seles' .......Obviously, who can ever forget the Gunther Parche advantage :angel:

your replies are as easy to smash away on the RISE into the deep corner for outright winners as Steffi's despicable slice backhand return. ;)

Monica Seles had long been a LIVING LEGEND of the game and is by far one of the most admired, loved and respected tennis champion in sports history. :angel: ;)

chris/martina
Sep 13th, 2004, 11:33 AM
again this thread has turned into a seles vs graf thread!! Who cares about that man. Navratilova is better than those two!! Graf was great and seles was great for a while to. I do believe that navratilova played in a less competitve era. Between 82-87 there was mandlikova and evert who were the only ones capable of getting near her. Graf had seles, sabatini, navratilova, asv and many other funny looking women lol.

alfajeffster
Sep 13th, 2004, 01:21 PM
You'll never hear this from the commentary booth at any of the majors, however, Margaret Smith Court has won more tournaments than any other player, male or female, in the history of tennis. She won every major tournament in the world multiple times, and still holds the record for most majors, a record that Navratilova has been chasing for more years than Margaret played open tennis. Court's record speaks volumes for itself.

spencercarlos
Sep 13th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Steffi Graf's Career after the Hamburg tragedy is much better than Seles' .......Obviously, who can ever forget the Gunther Parche advantage :angel:

your replies are as easy to smash away on the RISE into the deep corner for outright winners as Steffi's despicable slice backhand return. ;)

Monica Seles had long been a LIVING LEGEND of the game and is by far one of the most admired, loved and respected tennis champion in sports history. :angel: ;)
Three months after her 19th birthday Steffi Graf had already won the Grand Slam *cough* *cough*, have to say the GOLDEN SLAM, not too shadow either. And want it or not at the time before the stabbing, Graf was a much more acomplished tennis player than Monica, althought Monica´s results LOOKED LIKE could/should/may have been better, this never happened.

And to compare Steffi with Martina Navratilova, well for me Martina is the best tennis player that we have seen overall, if we count singles and doubles, but in singles Steffi was AGAIN, MUCH MORE ACOMPLISHED tennis player than Martina. Martina played 65 Grand Slams (not counting this year´s)
while Steffi played 54 Grandies, Steffi already had won 4 more SINGLE slams than Martina, having played 11 less, oh well if your 20 less slams played relationship makes Monica better than Steffi so i guess Steffi is better than Martina HAVING ALREADY 4 MORE GRAND SLAMS, and having played less.

Case closed i think.
:wavey: :kiss: Selesrules

spencercarlos
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:01 PM
Stop spinning the facts with highly inaccurate historical information and btw, this is getting so redundant and boooooooooring.

The bottom line : Graf's record is overly inflated and Seles' record is overly deflated because of a jealous Graf fan named Gunther Parche....and EVERYBODY in the world knows about it.....Haven't you noticed it yet? When people talk or write about the career of Steffi Graf, the Seles Tragedy and Parche is always the focal point of discussion....always casting a gloomy shadow....Even Graf's ultimate glory day feature on ESPN Century right before her induction to the hall of fame.... was not spared....

Graf is ineligible for consideration as the all-time greatest in women's tennis due to the dominance of the teenage Seles in the 30 months between October 1990 and April 1993 when a Graf supporter stabbed the #1 (teenage Monica Seles) in the back with a sharp knife.

To be the best, you have to be the best -- the most dominant -- in the middle of your career. If you are not CLEARLY the very, very best of your era (the small 10% or so of the entire 130 year history of the sport) ... then HOW can you be the best of all time?

You have to be the undisputed best player of your era -- and in the MIDDLE of your career (which Steffi Graf most obviously was not in the 30 months running from October 1990 through April 1993 when the #1 teenager was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan) -- if you want to even be in the running for consideration as the all-time greatest.

The all-time greatest champion does not need knifes in the backs of better players who are in their teenage years while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in the sport over a 2 or 3 year period.

It was SELES who was dominant as a teenage phenom in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until a Graf fan had had enough and stabbed her in the back with a knife.

For all these reasons and more, Martina Navratilova is unarguably the greatest female tennis player EVER followed by Chris Evert....As for Steffi, she is no doubt among the very best players in women's tennis in recent years or let's just say past 25 years :angel:


"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived." - Billie Jean King
Why assume Graf CAN NOT BE nominated for the best of all of times, just because she WAS NOT NUMBER ONE FOR HER ENTIRE CAREER? now this is stupid.
What do you want a SUPER WOMAN? :angel:

No one, and not even Navratilova (not sure if Court) could have been able to be the best player for the entire career, there are always time where you are not at your best, that has happened with everybody else i think, that´s the reason you have the competition, when Navratilova was there, Evert was there as well, and Evert dominating their early head 2 head by 25-8 (at the time where Martina was in her early 20ths) does not mean that Navratilova CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED the best of all times. The overall results puts Martina at the same Grand Slam titles as Evert, but Martina won more titles overall, and lead head 2 head overall vs Chrissy. So in singles Martina had a slight advantage over Evert.

starr
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:04 PM
I was never a fan, but I'd have to say Navratilova based on her entire career.

Graf is a close second, but Graf never played doubles so falls short of being the best.

Then.... after that, I'd have to say Lenglen, Evert, King, Court...... all mixed up together.

bandabou
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:14 PM
You'll never hear this from the commentary booth at any of the majors, however, Margaret Smith Court has won more tournaments than any other player, male or female, in the history of tennis. She won every major tournament in the world multiple times, and still holds the record for most majors, a record that Navratilova has been chasing for more years than Margaret played open tennis. Court's record speaks volumes for itself.


End of the discussion...

alfajeffster
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:25 PM
End of the discussion...
No, really, it astounds me sometimes how people forget Margaret Court, and any of the players from the past. Helen Wills Moody should be on the list, as well as Maureen Connolly and Suzanne Lenglen. I love Virginia Wade dearly- she's one of my all time favorite tennis players, and having met her more than once, I can attest that she's a wonderful person, however, she'd be the first to agree that she isn't in the conversation.

Margaret Court's singles record:

Australian Championships- 11
French Championships- 5
Wimbledon- 3
United States Championships- 5

and well over 180 tournament titles all over the world. There isn't a major title that she didn't win, and she only played about 12 full years on the world tour.

bandabou
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:31 PM
No, really, it astounds me sometimes how people forget Margaret Court, and any of the players from the past. Helen Wills Moody should be on the list, as well as Maureen Connolly and Suzanne Lenglen. I love Virginia Wade dearly- she's one of my all time favorite tennis players, and having met her more than once, I can attest that she's a wonderful person, however, she'd be the first to agree that she isn't in the conversation.

Margaret Court's singles record:

Australian Championships- 11
French Championships- 5
Wimbledon- 3
United States Championships- 5

and well over 180 tournament titles all over the world. There isn't a major title that she didn't win, and she only played about 12 full years on the world tour.


Yep..too often we forget of the past greats...but look at that record. It´s amazing.

irma
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:41 PM
I guess because we hardly get too see the complete record of these players. I still think it's ridiculous that when you won a tournament before 68 it's almost seen as irrelevant :rolleyes: (I mean in sense that they often don't count it except for slams sometimes)

bandabou
Sep 13th, 2004, 02:44 PM
Just for the sake to look some people´s record look more impressive...

Chrissie-fan
Sep 13th, 2004, 05:14 PM
Yes,and to make matters worse,a Jennifer Capriati (besides Chrissie) fan as well! :devil:

Gaston ;)


newbie huh? hi steffi ;) :angel:

Steffifan
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:16 PM
I think in singles Graf for sure..doubles Martina of course:)

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:25 PM
again this thread has turned into a seles vs graf thread!! Who cares about that man. Navratilova is better than those two!! Graf was great and seles was great for a while to. I do believe that navratilova played in a less competitve era. Between 82-87 there was mandlikova and evert who were the only ones capable of getting near her. Graf had seles, sabatini, navratilova, asv and many other funny looking women lol.



A player who is claimed by some Graf fanatics to be the best of of ALL time does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a tennager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Graf was not the best of all time.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

SO WE LOOK AT THE 12 BIGGEST SINGLES TITLES IN WOMEN'S TENNIS DURING THE 30 MONTHS BEFORE THE STABBING:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994


1990 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1991 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1991 French Open MONICA SELES

1991 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1991 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1991 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1992 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1992 French Open MONICA SELES

1992 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1992 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1992 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1993 Australian Open MONICA SELES

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

Steffi was almost 18 years of age before she was able to win back to back matches against Navratilova for the first time. Of course, Navratilova was over 30 years of age by then.

The first time that Graf was able to win MORE than just 2 matches consecutively vs. Navratilova was when Graf was over 19 years of age and when Navratilova was close to the age Andre Agassi is now.

STILL .. Navratilova in her mid to upper 30s had a winning record vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993, including Martina winning the only match between the 2 at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s.


Seles, of course, as a top ranked teen phenom in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.


1989 Brighton International (Brighton) Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
1989 Roland Garros (Paris) Semifinal 6-3, 3-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1989 Wimbledon (London) 4th round 6-0, 6-1 Steffi Graf

***Monica made her professional debut in 1989 at 15 years of age where she lost all of her matches 0-3 against then world number one Steffi Graf who made her professional debut in 1983 and was four (4) years older than Seles.***

***But from 1990-1993( before the stabbing), Monica Seles took over the top ranking has 4-3 advantage against Graf in head to head match-ups and was 3-1 in Grand Slam Finals against Graf who had fallen to a consistent number two.***

1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin) Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
1990 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg) Final 7-5, 6-7 (4-7), 6-3 Steffi Graf
1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio) Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1992 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
1992 Wimbledon (London) Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1993 Australian Open (Melbourne) Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles

***Monica Seles also won her very last match against second ranked Graf at the Finals of the 1993 Australian Open***

Based on the 12 biggest events between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993 there was nothing whatsoever which would suggest that undisputed world number one Monica Seles was not going to continue her dominance over women's tennis going forward.

In addition, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1990 --- although Martina Navratilova in her prime 10 years earlier managed to match that 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles played consecutively.

Monica Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in 1990 ... 1991 ... 1992 ... and the ONLY player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before she was stabbed in 1993 by a Steffi Graf fan.

No way Steffi Graf is the best woman tennis player in tennis history when you consider the truth of Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993. Far from it...Not even close....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

Steffi Graf.......
after her DEMORALIZING loss to Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......


Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......

Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone.
-
************************************************** *****
Here's some excerpts of an interview with Steffi Graf ( November 1993) 8 months after the violent stabbing of Monica Seles and after winning consecutive slams namely the 1993 French, 1993 Wimbledon and the 1993 US Open and taking over the number one ranking from the injured Seles.

Graf lost the 1993 Australian Open Finals to Seles three months before the stabbing.

November 1993
Steffi Graf
Interview by: DIETER SCHÖN
New York

WELT am SONNTAG: Ms. Graf, 1993 was very successful for you. Are you
satisfied?

Graf: To win three of four Grand Slams and to be in the final of the
other - that is extremely good. Yes, I am satisfied.

WaS: Though your success will also always be compared with what might
have been if Monica Seles hadn't been injured. How do you handle that?

Graf: I see it quite realistically. Of course the people are right,
and I might not have won one title or another, if Monica would have
played........

WaS: Do you regret that Monica Seles isn't around at the moment?

Graf: That is correct. When the number one is missing, something is missing......

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Why assume Graf CAN NOT BE nominated for the best of all of times, just because she WAS NOT NUMBER ONE FOR HER ENTIRE CAREER? now this is stupid.
What do you want a SUPER WOMAN? :angel:

No one, and not even Navratilova (not sure if Court) could have been able to be the best player for the entire career, there are always time where you are not at your best, that has happened with everybody else i think, that´s the reason you have the competition, when Navratilova was there, Evert was there as well, and Evert dominating their early head 2 head by 25-8 (at the time where Martina was in her early 20ths) does not mean that Navratilova CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED the best of all times. The overall results puts Martina at the same Grand Slam titles as Evert, but Martina won more titles overall, and lead head 2 head overall vs Chrissy. So in singles Martina had a slight advantage over Evert.

A stupid post from a brainless third world monkey, go back to your JUNGLE and eat some bananas :angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Sep 13th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Yes,and to make matters worse,a Jennifer Capriati (besides Chrissie) fan as well! :devil:

Gaston ;)

I admire everybody except Graf ;)

:angel: