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calabar
Apr 27th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Apologize to one's opponent when the ball hits the net. Does anyone knows the origin of this outdated practice? I can never understand the logic of apologizing for winning a point against your opponent all because the stupid ball hits the net and you win the point. If you are thay sorry, why not give them the point?

Another outdated custom that needs to go is showing the ball to your opponent when its a new ball. Isn't it the job of the chair umpire to announce new balls?

Any other tennis customs that are outdated?

twight6
Apr 27th, 2004, 08:19 PM
in my opinion, you apologize because you scored a point that you necesarily shouldn't have. its not like people hit the ball off the netcord for a reason. is it??? :confused: on the other hand, when that happens you could be like "take that you bitch, don't fuck with me" ;):haha:

Declan
Apr 27th, 2004, 09:06 PM
It's not really an apology, more an acknowledgement that there was an element of luck winning the point. Similarly, the 'new balls' thing is just a courtesy.

faboozadoo15
Apr 27th, 2004, 09:08 PM
well it's not an apology, just an aknowledgement that luck played a part...

but for some reason i've never seen a player who receives a let cord that sets up (and then they hit an aggressive shot and win the point) i don't think i've seen them raise their hand... odd

Vincent
Apr 27th, 2004, 09:09 PM
http://smileys.******************/cat/18/18_3_204.gif (http://www.******************/?partner=ZSzeb001)Because this is part of tennis.

TonyP
Apr 27th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Declan hits the nail on the head. It is just acknowledging that you got lucky on that point. I think it is a classy thing to do.

WhatTheDeuce
Apr 27th, 2004, 10:05 PM
Declan hits the nail on the head. It is just acknowledging that you got lucky on that point. I think it is a classy thing to do.
Yup.

Kart
Apr 27th, 2004, 10:06 PM
It's not really an apology, more an acknowledgement that there was an element of luck winning the point. Similarly, the 'new balls' thing is just a courtesy.
Wise words :yeah:.

Greenout
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:01 AM
Before tennis became a pro sport it was a leisure "Gentlemens and
Women's" social activity. This is why there's no lights at WIMBLEDON or
that they don't play on sunday. It harks back to the old uppper class
era where they don't play at night because they did social things, and
sunday wasn't used as a day of "play" because again, they unlike the
lower class didn't need Sunday as a day of rest or sport as their only
day off.

Why do men play 5 sets? Again..like cricket it goes back to
being a rich person's social sport. Nobody had a job, so it didn't
matter how long the games were.

- L i n a -
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:04 AM
I've always thought it's total bullshit... and I find it more annoying to be insincere like that.

However, at times hitting the net cord can be intentional. I often do on drop volleys.

Rtael
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:33 AM
I agree with Lina. It's bullshit. I seriously doubt there is one person ever that was actually sorry to win the point, so why apologize? :shrug:

Volcana
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:17 AM
Apologize to one's opponent when the ball hits the net. Does anyone knows the origin of this outdated practice? I can never understand the logic of apologizing for winning a point against your opponent all because the stupid ball hits the net and you win the point. If you are thay sorry, why not give them the point?

Another outdated custom that needs to go is showing the ball to your opponent when its a new ball. Isn't it the job of the chair umpire to announce new balls?

Any other tennis customs that are outdated?Tennis was/is a sport for ladies and gentlemen. Part of the tradition of the sport is NOT taking any unfair advantage of your opponent. New ball are a little more active. The server knows they are new. The receiver may not. The gentile thing, the sporting thing to do, is MAKE SURE the reciever knows, rather than leave it the chair umpire. In tennis, both players are supposed to make the extra effort to be absolutely sure that everything is fair, and no one has any advantage other than an athletic one over any other player.

One of my favroite points in al of tennis was a replay. It was an Evert/Navratilova match, and there was a dispute over a line call. The two met at net, talked it over, and TOLD the chair umpire they were replaying the point. They didn't leave it up to the chair umpire, they simply inform them that they were doing the fair thing. THAT'S tennis, to an old school type like me.

That's why the whole 'hand' thing with Justine offended so many people. It was something a traditionalist would never, ever do. It's also why so many people didn't understand why it was such a big deal. In most sports, if the ref doesn't call it, it isn't cheating. In SOME sports, if you don't get CAUGHT, it isn't cheating. To you, those are 'outdated customs'. To me, they're part of the reason why tennis is the coolest sport.

Martial arts has the same thing. If you're in the ring with a beginner, an old vet like me can romp and stomp them. But it isn't sporting. It shows a lack of respect for the opponent, a lack of respect for the art and by extension, a lack of respect for yourself.

It most certainly is NOT bullshit, but it IS old school.

calabar
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:33 AM
Tennis was/is a sport for ladies and gentlemen. Part of the tradition of the sport is NOT taking any unfair advantage of your opponent. New ball are a little more active. The server knows they are new. The receiver may not. The gentile thing, the sporting thing to do, is MAKE SURE the reciever knows, rather than leave it the chair umpire. In tennis, both players are supposed to make the extra effort to be absolutely sure that everything is fair, and no one has any advantage other than an athletic one over any other player.

One of my favroite points in al of tennis was a replay. It was an Evert/Navratilova match, and there was a dispute over a line call. The two met at net, talked it over, and TOLD the chair umpire they were replaying the point. They didn't leave it up to the chair umpire, they simply inform them that they were doing the fair thing. THAT'S tennis, to an old school type like me.

That's why the whole 'hand' thing with Justine offended so many people. It was something a traditionalist would never, ever do. It's also why so many people didn't understand why it was such a big deal. In most sports, if the ref doesn't call it, it isn't cheating. In SOME sports, if you don't get CAUGHT, it isn't cheating. To you, those are 'outdated customs'. To me, they're part of the reason why tennis is the coolest sport.

Martial arts has the same thing. If you're in the ring with a beginner, an old vet like me can romp and stomp them. But it isn't sporting. It shows a lack of respect for the opponent, a lack of respect for the art and by extension, a lack of respect for yourself.
Volcano, your sanctimony aside, how the hell does the ball landing on the net creates an unfair advantage? Has it occurred to you tennis purists that a ball landing on the net could land on EITHER side of the net? And if the ball does land on your your side, should the opponent (who gets the point) apologize for the lucky break? Would you?

azza
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:37 AM
if i do it in a match and i know the guy im like " sorry dude " but if i dont know the person im like " :ras: "

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:38 AM
wow... somke ppl just keep missing boats around here... raising your hand isn't saying "sorry" it's like saying "yep, got lucky there..."

CoryAnnAvants#1
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:44 AM
Personally, I only do that if I'm playing a friend. If I'm in a tournament, I just walk over to the other side when that happens.

I mean really, I'm not sorry that I did. And yes, it was lucky. So does that mean you should put up your hand if you shank a groundstoke for a winner?

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:48 AM
I mean really, I'm not sorry that I did. And yes, it was lucky. So does that mean you should put up your hand if you shank a groundstoke for a winner?
good question. you'd look absolutely hilarious if you pumped your fist, IMO, but most people who are good players who shank to infrequently, if it would go for a winner, they might laugh or hold up their hand, or both. i've seen lindsay do that... yea, lindsay shanked a ball, lol.

Volcana
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:52 AM
And if the ball does land on your your side, should the opponent (who gets the point) apologize for the lucky break? Would you?
I do. I every sport I play, if i get something through luck, I acknowledge that.

calabar
Apr 28th, 2004, 02:56 AM
I do. I every sport I play, if i get something through luck, I acknowledge that.
How magnanimous of you.

CanadianBoy21
Apr 28th, 2004, 03:01 AM
http://smileys.******************/cat/18/18_3_204.gif (http://www.******************/?partner=ZSzeb001)Because this is part of tennis.

This is like watching Conchita and Amanda Coetzer play.
It never ends.
:p

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 03:05 AM
This is like watching Conchita and Amanda Coetzer play.
It never ends.
:p
nah... they're way too close in size and the ball is moving way too fast... and going way too low over the net lol...
but other than that, you hit the nail on the head... and im gonna leave now before that mesmerizes me

~ The Leopard ~
Apr 28th, 2004, 03:14 AM
Of course you acknowledge it if something goes your way that is a bit flukey. Doesn't matter whether it is tennis or something else in life. We often say in a more-or-less competive situation in business or whatever, "I got a bit lucky there." What's so controversial about it? It's just how well-mannered people act. That kind of courtesy makes our society much more livable. I'd hate to live in society that was not smoothed over by these little niceties. If they are reflected in tennis, surely this is GOOD thing.

faboozadoo15
Apr 28th, 2004, 03:18 AM
Of course you acknowledge it if something goes your way that is a bit flukey. Doesn't matter whether it is tennis or something else in life. We often say in a more-or-less competive situation in business or whatever, "I got a bit lucky there." What's so controversial about it? It's just how well-mannered people act. That kind of courtesy makes our society much more livable. I'd hate to live in society that was not smoothed over by these little niceties. If they are reflected in tennis, surely this is GOOD thing.
i agree completely.

esquímaux
Apr 28th, 2004, 03:39 AM
I don't apologize, it just means I was supposed the receive that point, netcord or not :p

kosmikgroove
Apr 28th, 2004, 06:38 AM
I don't apologize, it just means I was supposed the receive that point, netcord or not :p

hey is that signature a poem or a song lyric? it's beautiful

oddkayla
Apr 28th, 2004, 06:58 AM
Its the most insincere gesture in tennis, and I wish it was never done. I have so much respect for players who dont do it. Have you seen players who apologise and turn around and pump their fist? Terrible

BigTennisFan
Apr 28th, 2004, 07:08 AM
How magnanimous of you.
You're clearly from the modern school of anything goes a la the :bigwave: incident. ;)

tennisIlove09
Apr 28th, 2004, 07:10 AM
Tennis was/is a sport for ladies and gentlemen. Part of the tradition of the sport is NOT taking any unfair advantage of your opponent. New ball are a little more active. The server knows they are new. The receiver may not. The gentile thing, the sporting thing to do, is MAKE SURE the reciever knows, rather than leave it the chair umpire. In tennis, both players are supposed to make the extra effort to be absolutely sure that everything is fair, and no one has any advantage other than an athletic one over any other player.

One of my favroite points in al of tennis was a replay. It was an Evert/Navratilova match, and there was a dispute over a line call. The two met at net, talked it over, and TOLD the chair umpire they were replaying the point. They didn't leave it up to the chair umpire, they simply inform them that they were doing the fair thing. THAT'S tennis, to an old school type like me.

That's why the whole 'hand' thing with Justine offended so many people. It was something a traditionalist would never, ever do. It's also why so many people didn't understand why it was such a big deal. In most sports, if the ref doesn't call it, it isn't cheating. In SOME sports, if you don't get CAUGHT, it isn't cheating. To you, those are 'outdated customs'. To me, they're part of the reason why tennis is the coolest sport.

Martial arts has the same thing. If you're in the ring with a beginner, an old vet like me can romp and stomp them. But it isn't sporting. It shows a lack of respect for the opponent, a lack of respect for the art and by extension, a lack of respect for yourself.

It most certainly is NOT bullshit, but it IS old school.
I believe it was the 78 Wimbledon finals (which was Martina's first Wimbledon). I have it on tape. It was great. Two great players fighting for the biggest tournament in the world, and they could put everything aside and do what was right, and fair! If only that would happened today...

calabar
Apr 28th, 2004, 12:54 PM
You're clearly from the modern school of anything goes a la the :bigwave: incident. ;)
Not true at all. I just don't believe in fakery. As I have said before on this very board, the so-called "hand incident" is the most OVERBLOWN tennis story I heard of in recent memories. And btw, I have nothing against modernity.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Does your opponent apologize when your ball hits the net and sits up for them to hit a clean winner?...

"That's why the whole 'hand' thing with Justine offended so many people. It was something a traditionalist would never, ever do. It's also why so many people didn't understand why it was such a big deal. In most sports, if the ref doesn't call it, it isn't cheating. In SOME sports, if you don't get CAUGHT, it isn't cheating. To you, those are 'outdated customs'. To me, they're part of the reason why tennis is the coolest sport. "

Exactly...that was one of the most unsportsmanlike incidents I've seen this century.

When I'm playing, especially dubs. I never apologize when I hit a ball near my opponent, or if he gets hit while attempting a poach.

GoDominique
Apr 28th, 2004, 01:44 PM
One of my favroite points in al of tennis was a replay. It was an Evert/Navratilova match, and there was a dispute over a line call. The two met at net, talked it over, and TOLD the chair umpire they were replaying the point. They didn't leave it up to the chair umpire, they simply inform them that they were doing the fair thing. THAT'S tennis, to an old school type like me.

Do you remember their 1988 Wimbledon semifinal?

paul_masterton
Apr 28th, 2004, 04:48 PM
its jsut couretesy, u dont ahve to. it sjsut a rwcognisation u got lucky, especially when u are on the defensive.

same as some players apologise if the smack teh ball of the frame and it goes for a winner, or the fucked up spin it puts on teh ball means the opponent either cant get near or or smacks it off teh abck fence

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 01:25 PM
:worship: to all those who defended courtesy here.

It's a sad world when mere politeness is considered to be fake.

Being polite has ALWAYS been the lubricant which keeps the machinery of a civilized society going. Without it that machinery will eventually come to a screeching standstill. This has been understood since... oh, since civilization occured.

But yes: once you could go to a soccer game and watch it unhindered from the sidelines, with hardly a policeman in sight. Today you have to watch it from behind a high fence, and the police force being deployed for every match is costing the society tons of money in taxes... all because (some?) people have stopped being polite insincere.
Tennis may well be one of the last (sports-) bastions where simple courtesy is still valued.

Now that seems to be changing too, bit by little bit.

Well, to all those who are in favour of this change: maybe one day you will be handicapped, or just old - and mercilessly pushed aside by the young and vigourous, who have learned (from you?) that being polite and nice is for the fake and insincere. "Tough luck, old bitch/ geezer, heeheehee." Maybe then you will understand that it is a dire necessity. But by then it will be a few generations too late.

Is that The Barbarians knocking at the gate? :banana:

calabar
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:03 PM
:worship: to all those who defended courtesy here.

It's a sad world when mere politeness is considered to be fake.

Being polite has ALWAYS been the lubricant which keeps the machinery of a civilized society going. Without it that machinery will eventually come to a screeching standstill. This has been understood since... oh, since civilization occured.

But yes: once you could go to a soccer game and watch it unhindered from the sidelines, with hardly a policeman in sight. Today you have to watch it from behind a high fence, and the police force being deployed for every match is costing the society tons of money in taxes... all because (some?) people have stopped being polite insincere.
Tennis may well be one of the last (sports-) bastions where simple courtesy is still valued.

Now that seems to be changing too, bit by little bit.

Well, to all those who are in favour of this change: maybe one day you will be handicapped, or just old - and mercilessly pushed aside by the young and vigourous, who have learned (from you?) that being polite and nice is for the fake and insincere. "Tough luck, old bitch/ geezer, heeheehee." Maybe then you will understand that it is a dire necessity. But by then it will be a few generations too late.

Is that The Barbarians knocking at the gate? :banana:
Whoa Lynx,

Easy on the mellodrama will you? I never suggested that we should do away with the genteel imagery of the sport. I am simply questioning the continued need to acknowledge a point won by the ball hitting the net (net cord) versus a clean winner. A point won is a point as long as it was won by playing within the rules.

Sometimes you phony purists need to get a .......grip.

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:28 PM
Melodrama, eh.
You think I exaggerate? Ever been to a soccer match?

Anyway, I didn't like the way you began insulting Volcana (santimonious? magnanimous?) when s/he spoke his piece, without being rude him- or herself, mind. It's clear you don't have a high opinion of simple courtesy and manners.

You DID call those polite gestures on the tenniscourt "fake".


"Melodrama." Gee, I wish it were.

:hatoff:

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Ok, because we think ONE particular action on a tennis court is fake.

It means we think being polite and nice is for the fake and insincere.

K.
Well, Cool One, in se all polite gestures are "insincere", because politeness is not a feeling - it's just a lubricant.

Take away the lubricant - and what happens? Eventually?

calabar
Apr 30th, 2004, 02:54 PM
Melodrama, eh.
You think I exaggerate? Ever been to a soccer match?

:hatoff:
Yes, I do think you are exaggerating by introducing the hooliganism at soccer matches into the discussion. There is absolutely NO connection between the two sports and I was not remotely encouraging rude behavior in tennis (or any other sport). There is NOTHING in my original post suggesting tennis players should start behaving in a crass manner. I was simply questioning the relevance of a long standing tradition in tennis. That's all.

As far as I am concerned if a player hits a clear down-the-line winner, s/he should be happy for winning that point. If in the process the ball clips the net, I see no reason why their happiness should be subdued. Luck is an integral part of sports, and the person/team on the losing end must learn to live with it....And so should you.

I'm out.

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 03:03 PM
The difference between "real life" politeness and that particular situation is that some of us feel it's useless to apologize for something that is part of the game. You might not agree, but it's silly to compare it to other form of politeness that occurs in society.

You said it yourself, there are situations in life that politeness is a must to live in a civilized society, like when we hurt someone. I agree with you, but please, that's not what we're talking about.

Ok. You may feel that way; I don't. And I happen to think that sports and real life are very much related - I don't think it's silly to compare them. I'm not going into this much further, though: I said what I have to say, I would just repeat myself.

I'll let Joui do the replying - he said it well.


Of course you acknowledge it if something goes your way that is a bit flukey. Doesn't matter whether it is tennis or something else in life. We often say in a more-or-less competive situation in business or whatever, "I got a bit lucky there." What's so controversial about it? It's just how well-mannered people act. That kind of courtesy makes our society much more livable. I'd hate to live in society that was not smoothed over by these little niceties. If they are reflected in tennis, surely this is GOOD thing.
Well, I disagree.

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 04:06 PM
You are right, Cool Canuck. It may well be part of the game. It may well be that it has not so much to do with luck, but with the way you are hitting the ball. I am going to lose this argument with knock-out if I would argue it from your point of view.

But that is not the issue, not from where I stand. I am not contesting the fact that it may or may not have to do with luck.
But why even ask if a polite gesture, that has been part of the game since the beginning of tennis, is "necessary"? What is there to gain by "abolishing" it? It's not as if it's hurting anybody!


The question arose, I think, because more and more those little drops of lubricant are seen as superfluous, even irritating, it would seem. ("Fake" - I find that a very negative word.) And imo, THAT has to do with how society is evolving, becoming less and less polite - not wanting to see the "necessity" of little formalized gestures.


I'm not defending that gesture on its merit alone (or lack thereof). I am defending the err, idea? philosophy? principle? behind it.

As I think were Volcana and Joui.

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 04:16 PM
Yes, I do think you are exaggerating by introducing the hooliganism at soccer matches into the discussion. There is absolutely NO connection between the two sports and I was not remotely encouraging rude behavior in tennis (or any other sport). There is NOTHING in my original post suggesting tennis players should start behaving in a crass manner. I was simply questioning the relevance of a long standing tradition in tennis. That's all.

As far as I am concerned if a player hits a clear down-the-line winner, s/he should be happy for winning that point. If in the process the ball clips the net, I see no reason why their happiness should be subdued. Luck is an integral part of sports, and the person/team on the losing end must learn to live with it....And so should you.

I'm out.
calabar, I'm not introducing hooliganism at soccer matches into the discussion - I'm introducing the fact that soccer has evolved from a bit of harmless fun-for-all into what it is now. I'm suggesting that the change began with small things, like questioning the need for little meaningless "fake" gestures.

What harm is there in making a friendly/polite gesture? Does it mean that the person/team on the losing end couldn't live without it? Of course not. We all can live without any politenesses... but then we all have to grow a very thick skin, and thick skins are ugly.

It seems you find it aggravating, because it's "fake". I find it making life more pleasant. We all "lie" for the sake of peace. Lubricant, like I said.

And like I feared, I'm repeating myself - sorry.

See you. :wavey:

Dave B
Apr 30th, 2004, 04:43 PM
Volcano, your sanctimony aside, how the hell does the ball landing on the net creates an unfair advantage? Has it occurred to you tennis purists that a ball landing on the net could land on EITHER side of the net? And if the ball does land on your your side, should the opponent (who gets the point) apologize for the lucky break? Would you?

That seems a little different to me. If the ball stays on your opponents side of the court, they hit the bad shot that hit the net, not you. The entire reason to apologize isn't just that you got lucky. You made a mistake and then won the point. The person playing the "clearner" point lost and that is why you apologize.

ico4498
Apr 30th, 2004, 04:56 PM
"I'm introducing the fact that soccer has evolved from a bit of harmless fun-for-all into what it is now."

nonsense, victorious warriors kicking their defeated foes' skulls around is not "a bit of harmless fun-for-all".

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 05:07 PM
"I'm introducing the fact that soccer has evolved from a bit of harmless fun-for-all into what it is now."

nonsense, victorious warriors kicking their defeated foes' skulls around is not "a bit of harmless fun-for-all".
What team was that? What year? What competition?

Pfff. Spoken about nonsense.

ico4498
Apr 30th, 2004, 05:15 PM
What team was that? What year? What competition?

Pfff. Spoken about nonsense.
time ... and inclination are poor with me.

thats soccer's genisis ... bad analogy Lynx.

peace

Lynx
Apr 30th, 2004, 05:20 PM
Ok :).

Smackie
May 1st, 2004, 02:00 AM
I think if a point is won with a netcord, it's well deserved to win that point, no need to 'apologise', in my opinion.

Face it, when you hit the ball, you INTEND to hit it over to the otherside, it's not like the ball has the ability to climb from mid-net to top and over. It's not exactly a skillful shot but it shows how low one is trying to hit the ball over. I don't consider that 'luck' - just like if you get 58% in an exam and the passing curve coincidentally down to 58%, you don't think it's luck because you answer the questions right and when compare with failed students you are better and therefore you deserve to pass. You don't go to your lecture/classmates and apologise, do you?

I think the opponent should curse at the net for not stopping the ball (bad luck) instead of the winner apologising for a point that s/he earned. Like few others said, if the ball doesn't get over to the otherside, it's not like the opponent will thank you for that or refuse the point. S/he will gladly accept it.

Someone mentioned Justine's incidence is one of the most unsportsman like in this centry...well, watch a few footie games (esp with South American teams) and decide what unsportsman like is really like.

We sat at home watching the point through and through with the help of technology and could tell there might be a mistake for the umpire to overrule, but Justine wasn't watching that, was she? There are many players who complain whenever there is a close call are they all cheats? There are a lot of points which players object and complain about, c'est la vie! Can you honestly say at the time she definately knew the ball was in? Also, Justine didn't point a gun at the umpire's head asking for an overrule, it was ultimately the umpire's fault that she overruled the call.

However, I do understand why some of you feel that way. It's not very fair. If it (losing a point like that) happened to Justine, I would be unhappy too but I wouldn't doubt the opponent's integrity because s/he may not see what WE see.

Peace