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View Full Version : Exactly how good a red clay player is Venus Williams?


Volcana
Apr 25th, 2004, 02:57 PM
She plays about three tournaments on it mst years. A Tier II, a Tier I, and Roland Garros. She's had some excellent results and some bad ones.

CH-'99 T1 Rome
CH-'99 T2 Hamburg
CH-'01 T2 Hamburg
FR-'02 GS French Open
FR-'98 T1 Rome
FR-'02 T2 Hamburg
FR-'03 T2 Warsaw

QF-'00 GS French Open
QF-'98 GS French Open
QF-'00 T2 Hamburg

16-'99 GS French Open
16-'03 GS French Open
16-'00 T1 Rome
16-'01 T1 Berlin

64-'97 GS French Open
r1-'01 GS French Open

Serena and Justine obviously have to be considered better red clay players. Venus, Kim and Amelie actually have pretty similiar red clay records. Look at championships and finals in GS, T1 and T2 tournaments. Venus' record is above.

Kim has won Rome, won Hamburg and made the RG final twice and the Rome final once.
Amelie has won Berlin, won Warsaw, and made the finals at Berlin and Rome twice. Amelie's inability to make any headway at RG is somewhat glaring.

Jenn, of course, WON the French. But she's way off her game, so I'd same Venus is a better player on red clay NOW, even though Jenn is obviously more accomplished.
And of course, unless she wins the French, Venus' record on red clay will never equal Conchi's.

At least on the record, it seems safe to say that Venus is one of the top five red clay players in the world.

Foot_Fault
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:02 PM
thats safe to say!
I would even say Third behind Serena, Justine, Venus....Kim, Amelie

Knizzle
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:09 PM
if Venus is on her game and motivated, the surface of play just doesn't matter that much. She's a great player on red clay if she's on, and clearly capable of beating all challengers and winning RG. Too often, the sisters' fans have used the court surface as an excuse when they lost.
Since when did anyone use clay as an excuse?? :shrug:

vogus
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:19 PM
hi Knizz, i decided that i'm not in the mood to start an argument right now, so if you could delete that post quoting me, that would be a favor - thanx.

Freewoman33
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:20 PM
I'd say Venus is better than most of the clay court "Specialists" on their favorite surface.

*JR*
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:22 PM
Vee didn't "get worse" on the red Stuff Since '99, IMO. The others got better. Green Gives her more pace, Something She "eats for breakfast".

tennnisfannn
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:27 PM
I think Venus' record on red clay has been overshadowed by her great accomplishment on the hard and grass courts and hence the impression that she isn't a great clay courter. Her results speak for themselves and she is definitely good on that stuff. I hope this is the year she wins RG.

Bright Red
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:32 PM
I remember getting in a huge debate about this very subject a little after I first joined the board. It took a lot of posts to put my point together: Venus is very good on clay. I think some people can't help comparing Venus' performance on clay to her performance on, let's say, grass. This somehow translates (in their minds) to her not being a good clay player overall.

Bright Red
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:33 PM
I think Venus' record on red clay has been overshadowed by her great accomplishment on the hard and grass courts and hence the impression that she isn't a great clay courter. Her results speak for themselves and she is definitely good on that stuff. I hope this is the year she wins RG.
I hadn't seen your post, but...Ditto.

ys
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:35 PM
Currently it is impossible to say who is better. It's a mess. Henin is sick. Serena is injured. Kim is coming off injury. I though think at their best level these three are qutie well ahead of the rest. Then we have Venus, Amelie and Capriati.

switz
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:44 PM
i will never forget the way she mauled seles a few ago at RG (and monica was playing well). she just moved so gracefully to every ball and just struck winners from all over the court. i think in some ways it benefits her groundstrokes beause she gets more time to set up.

Randy H
Apr 25th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Venus is capable on red clay, but you can tell it's not a natural surface for her - Her technique on the surface is below the level of many others, and that's to be expected becasue she didn't grow up on the stuff.

*However*, Venus is able to make up for this most times for 2 key reasons. One is her mental strength. Sure players like Amelie are probably better suited to clay, and better clay court players in general, but the difference is that she has not yet been able to find her complete focus yet at Roland Garros and this is why she hasn't gone as far as she is capable of going. Venus on the other hand is so mentally tough that she's been able to reach the final. The second key is her fitness. She may not be a natural mover on clay, but she is such a great athlete that she can afford a bit of that extra time lost by not always making the right moves into her shots. She also has the strength so that when she is off balance and maybe a bit out of position, she can still muscle the ball back over for winners.

"Topaz"
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Ok, what exactly is the difference between Green Clay and Red Clay? Is green clay ground concrete blocks (cement-like mixture?) and red clay ground bricks? :o What materials and processes are used to produce each?

One thing for sure, they are both labelled clay. Where does the coloration come from? Finally, why does the ball bounce faster or higher on one versus the other, if at all? Please save me a long search.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:16 PM
Serena better than Venus on Red Clay? Put there results and or big wins on the red dirt side-by-side and see who's looks best...I'm quite sure it would be Venus.

hingis-seles
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:17 PM
i will never forget the way she mauled seles a few ago at RG (and monica was playing well). she just moved so gracefully to every ball and just struck winners from all over the court. i think in some ways it benefits her groundstrokes beause she gets more time to set up.
Monica wasn't playing well. She was down 5-0 in her opening match before winning it 6-7, 6-3, 6-0 against Angeles Montolio. The rain saved her. She struggled to reach the quarters. She played a decent match but no where near the level of what she did in Melbourne earlier that year. Venus, though, played a wonderful match and deserved her comfortable win.

tennisIlove09
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Serena has won 2 titles on clay...Rome and Paris, the two biggies. So it's close.

CJ07
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Let's Look at Serena's Red Clay Record.

1998
Rome QF
Paris Rnd of 16

1999
Rome QF
Berlin QF
Paris Rnd of 32

2001
Paris QF

2002
Berlin F
Rome W
Paris W

2003
Rome SF
Paris SF

For as bad as Serena is supposed to be on red clay, that's increadibly consistent.
She still hasn't won much on clay, and wasn't really a contender untill 2002, but still.
However, 3/16 is better than 2/11

But Serena's 81% win percentage and Venus's 81% are both equal
But when you take out Fed Cup, Its 81% to 78%

DA FOREHAND
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:31 PM
"CH-'99 T1 Rome
CH-'99 T2 Hamburg
CH-'01 T2 Hamburg
FR-'02 GS French Open
FR-'98 T1 Rome
FR-'02 T2 Hamburg
FR-'03 T2 Warsaw "

Venus has wins over then number one Hingis,PIerce,Seles,Mauresmo...etc
Serena has beaten Henin and Venus?

CJ07
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:32 PM
Serena better than Venus on Red Clay? Put there results and or big wins on the red dirt side-by-side and see who's looks best...I'm quite sure it would be Venus.Serena hasn't beaten a top player on clay outside of 2002+2003
Those were,

Henin, Capriati, Venus and Mauresmo

Venus has beaten:
Hingis, Capriati (FO Champion) , Serena (FO Champion), Pierce (when it mattered) (FO Champion), Dokic (when it mattered), Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (FO Champion) , Monica Seles (FO Champion) and Anna Kournikova

Venus's wins over the above were all routine save for the Capriati match which I think was 3 sets. Serena's routine win over Mauresmo, and then her straight setter over Venus at FO.

tennisIlove09
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:32 PM
Serena beat Capriati (numerous times); Mauresmo; Pierce on clay. Of course Pierce wasn't as much of a factor as when Venus beat her.

Infiniti2001
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Venus's record on clay is quite decent career wise- 63-15 (including this weekend Fed Cup). Like I said before, people make bold statements without actually looking up a player's record .
Meanwhile, does every discussion have to turn into Venus vs Serena ?? :rolleyes:
::waits:: for bandabou to enter this thread. :tape: :shrug:

vogus
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Venus is one of say, 9 or 10 players who could win RG this year. With Serena and Henin both looking shaky right now, that makes the field pretty wide open. I'd say the five leading Russians, Venus, Patty, possibly Martinez if she has a last big run, and obviously a healthy Clisters are the only players with a real chance to take the title. And out of those 9 players, you obviously have to favor Venus and Clisters based on past GS performance.

I leave Mauresmo off the list because i don't think she has the deep-down toughness that it would take her to win at home in Paris. Mauresmo has shown a lot of times that she can't handle the pressure.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:46 PM
Venus is one of say, 9 or 10 players who could win RG this year. With Serena and Henin both looking shaky right now, that makes the field pretty wide open. I'd say the five leading Russians, Venus, Patty, possibly Martinez if she has a last big run, and obviously a healthy Clisters are the only players with a real chance to take the title. And out of those 9 players, you obviously have to favor Venus and Clisters based on past GS performance.

I leave Mauresmo off the list because i don't think she has the deep-down toughness that it would take her to win at home in Paris. Mauresmo has shown a lot of times that she can't handle the pressure.


What five leading Russians? Myskina,Petrova,Vera,Dem,Sharapova? :tape:

vogus
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:46 PM
i don't know what red and green clay are made out of, but one big difference is this: there are very many different kinds of red clay across Europe and South America, some that play fast and some that play slow. Whereas, there is only ONE kind of green clay, because there are only two companies, both based in the U.S., that make the green clay courts, so as a surface it is pretty dependable and uniform from place to place - and green clay is found only in the US and Canada.

vogus
Apr 25th, 2004, 05:47 PM
no, not Sharapova (yet), Kuznetsova is the fifth one.

tennisIlove09
Apr 25th, 2004, 06:04 PM
Serena hasn't beaten a top player on clay outside of 2002+2003
Those were,

Henin, Capriati, Venus and Mauresmo

Venus has beaten:
Hingis, Capriati (FO Champion) , Serena (FO Champion), Pierce (when it mattered) (FO Champion), Dokic (when it mattered), Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (FO Champion) , Monica Seles (FO Champion) and Anna Kournikova

Venus's wins over the above were all routine save for the Capriati match which I think was 3 sets. Serena's routine win over Mauresmo, and then her straight setter over Venus at FO.
Venus didn't beat Jennifer, Dokic on clay. And her win over Serena on clay was way back in 98 (??? maybe 99).

Volcana
Apr 25th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Serena better than Venus on Red Clay? Put there results and or big wins on the red dirt side-by-side and see who's looks best...I'm quite sure it would be Venus.
Winning RG is the Ace of trumps of clay court tennis. If the records are at all close, I give it to the RG winner. I wouldn't ranking Majoli over Hingis, but the difference between Venus and Serena's clay court records isn't that great.

WF4EVER
Apr 25th, 2004, 07:20 PM
Serena better than Venus on Red Clay? Put there results and or big wins on the red dirt side-by-side and see who's looks best...I'm quite sure it would be Venus.
I read as far as this post and wondered the same thing. How was it determined that Serena is better then Venus on red clay? Is it because she beat her in the FO final?

I wouldn't necessarily compare results because I'm sure Venus has played a lot more on clay than Serena, although that is a part of the determinant, but just looking at the way they play on clay makes me feel that Venus' understanding of what is required to play on clay is a lot better than Serena's.

I've always had a problem with Serena always wanting to beat the skin off the ball and she does the very same thing on clay. She moves well but she's more impatient and when properly challenged she detests those rallies (ask Justine).

I remember after her 1st round 2002 FO match (against Muller? was it) although Venus had won with an easy scoreline she was concerned that she had made so many errors because she was out there rushing the points, and that realization made her the best player at RG 2002, IMO, at least up to the SF. I remember watching her beat Chanda and Monica and although Monica hit some great angles on Vee, Vee was just on!

I don't count Serena beating Venus in the final as proving that she's better than her on clay.

IMHO the only players I might put above her are the clay-grown current top players who were practically born with clay in their mouths like JHH, Kim and Amelie, and on a consistent basis I would venture to say that I would not put any of them above Venus because, like someone mentioned above, she's very mentally tough. Venus knows what she has to do to beat anyone, any time and on any surface, so while a players game may be better suited for clay, that doesn't mean a hard court 'specialist' like Venus couldn't beat them consistently on their surface of choice.

WF4EVER
Apr 25th, 2004, 07:23 PM
BTW what has become of Angeles Montolio? I remember her having a great run on clay afew years ago then nothing. Does anyone know what has become of her?

Knizzle
Apr 25th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Venus didn't beat Jennifer, Dokic on clay. And her win over Serena on clay was way back in 98 (??? maybe 99).
Venus did beat Dokic on clay 6-3, 6-1 at Hamburg 2001 SF.

bandabou
Apr 25th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Not much difference between Venus and Serena.....must say that Serena has been more consistent on the surface..she may not have beaten the top players on the surface but she doesn´t have bad losses either like losing first round to SCHETT!!!,etc..

tennisIlove09
Apr 25th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Not much difference between Venus and Serena.....must say that Serena has been more consistent on the surface..she may not have beaten the top players on the surface but she doesn´t have bad losses either like losing first round to SCHETT!!!,etc..
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: why do you turn everything into this? It's like you are attacking Venus?

No Serena didn't lose first round to Schett, but Venus didn't retire to Suarez losing 2-5 in the third :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

shap_half
Apr 25th, 2004, 08:00 PM
IMHO the only players I might put above her are the clay-grown current top players who were practically born with clay in their mouths like JHH, Kim and Amelie, and on a consistent basis I would venture to say that I would not put any of them above Venus because, like someone mentioned above, she's very mentally tough. Venus knows what she has to do to beat anyone, any time and on any surface, so while a players game may be better suited for clay, that doesn't mean a hard court 'specialist' like Venus couldn't beat them consistently on their surface of choice.

I really don't agree with Vens being capable of beating Justine on clay consistently. Justine before AI02, had a 1-0 h2h against Venus and then completely self-destructed at the finals of AI02 against Venus therefore handing Venus the title. I don't think Justine should be losing to Venus on clay, but she did. Not because of what happened to Venus but because how mentally castrated Justine became during that match. I think that Justine is poised to become one of the best and most successful clay courter of all time.

3 Tier I titles and 1 GS (and that's just over 02 and 03). If she had been healthy this season, she would be piling up on the red clay titles.

bandabou
Apr 25th, 2004, 08:07 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: why do you turn everything into this? It's like you are attacking Venus?

No Serena didn't lose first round to Schett, but Venus didn't retire to Suarez losing 2-5 in the third :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Not attacking Venus....but the talk about Serena didn´t beat no top players on clay, is a bit crap...and when did Serena retire to Paola?!
´98 she lost to ASV in 4th round, went on to win the title.
´99 to MJF,
´00 didn´t play.
´01 lost to Jen, went on to win the title.
´02, won.
´03, SF lost to Justine, who won the title.

So in her career she only lost to the eventual winner in all but one of her visits to RG!! Not shabby...

tennisIlove09
Apr 25th, 2004, 08:08 PM
my bad, it was green clay that Serena retired :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

bandabou
Apr 25th, 2004, 08:08 PM
I really don't agree with Vens being capable of beating Justine on clay consistently. Justine before AI02, had a 1-0 h2h against Venus and then completely self-destructed at the finals of AI02 against Venus therefore handing Venus the title. I don't think Justine should be losing to Venus on clay, but she did. Not because of what happened to Venus but because how mentally castrated Justine became during that match. I think that Justine is poised to become one of the best and most successful clay courter of all time.

3 Tier I titles and 1 GS (and that's just over 02 and 03). If she had been healthy this season, she would be piling up on the red clay titles.

On clay, she is...for sure.

bandabou
Apr 25th, 2004, 08:09 PM
my bad, it was green clay that Serena retired :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Get the factoids straigth!! ;)

Jericho
Apr 25th, 2004, 08:13 PM
I still find it weird that Serena didn't get past the quarters on clay until 02'

Volcana
Apr 25th, 2004, 08:32 PM
I've always had a problem with Serena always wanting to beat the skin off the ball and she does the very same thing on clay. She moves well but she's more impatient and when properly challenged she detests those rallies (ask Justine).

[QUOTEI don't count Serena beating Venus in the final as proving that she's better than her on clay.Oh c'mon! It's Roland Garros. Maybe it's not the ONLY factor, but you have to give considerable weight to it. Serena's actually always been a fairly competent clay courter. But especially, look at her record on red clay after her famous little speech in the beginning of 2002 about 'losing to players I should be beating'



FR-'02 Berlin CH-'02 Rome
CH-'02 French Open
SF-'03 Rome
SF-'03 French Open

Not so bad. Even the lifetime record is respectable. pre-2002...QF-'98 Rome
16-'98 French Open
QF-'99 Rome
QF-'99 Berlin
32-'99 French Open
QF-'01 French Open

There's a bit of 'two completely different players', but she NEVER bombs out early on red clay.



Truth is, what the current tour lacks is a dominant clay court player like a Steffi or Monica or Arantxa or Hingis. There's no dearth of candidates though. There are five players in the top ten who've played in the RG final, and who've also won at least a Tier I on red clay.

Knizzle
Apr 25th, 2004, 09:30 PM
I really don't agree with Vens being capable of beating Justine on clay consistently. Justine before AI02, had a 1-0 h2h against Venus and then completely self-destructed at the finals of AI02 against Venus therefore handing Venus the title. I don't think Justine should be losing to Venus on clay, but she did. Not because of what happened to Venus but because how mentally castrated Justine became during that match. I think that Justine is poised to become one of the best and most successful clay courter of all time.

3 Tier I titles and 1 GS (and that's just over 02 and 03). If she had been healthy this season, she would be piling up on the red clay titles.
Why exactly would Venus not be able to consistenly beat Justine on clay?? Venus never had a problem beating great clay courters consistenly on clay. Just ask ASV/Mary Pierce/Hingis.

Kart
Apr 25th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Without reading all the posts above I generally agree with anyone who said Venus is an excellent red clay court player.

I don't think she really believes that herself though, which is, IMHO, the only thing that has stood between her and a French open title so far.

LUIS9
Apr 25th, 2004, 09:55 PM
I wouldnt say Venus beat Hingis consistenly on clay she only beat her twice, once in Rome 99 and then in Hamburg 01 when Hingis was on a slump and had had her first surgery and was taking pain killers the whole tournament and still took a healthy in form Venus to a tie break. However i would say Venus results for the moment are a lot more consistent and self evident of her ability on clay when in good form and mentally determined than Serenas overall.

DUNEMAN
Apr 25th, 2004, 10:39 PM
Without reading all the posts above I generally agree with anyone who said Venus is an excellent red clay court player.

I don't think she really believes that herself though, which is, IMHO, the only thing that has stood between her and a French open title so far.

Venus is following the path to an RG final victory. Injury is her enemy. If no one else will say it, I will. I think Vee's feelings were hurt real bad by the results of Oz and the tourneys until FCC, she has thrown caution aside and is going for it. The Red clay is a good surface to adopt this strategy and unless Rena can rebound and challenge, I see no one that can stop her. The jury is still out on JHH :worship: :worship:

Knizzle
Apr 25th, 2004, 10:42 PM
I wouldnt say Venus beat Hingis consistenly on clay she only beat her twice, once in Rome 99 and then in Hamburg 01 when Hingis was on a slump and had had her first surgery and was taking pain killers the whole tournament and still took a healthy in form Venus to a tie break. However i would say Venus results for the moment are a lot more consistent and self evident of her ability on clay when in good form and mentally determined than Serenas overall.
Hingis only beat Venus twice also. There was no tiebreak at Hamburg 02.

shap_half
Apr 25th, 2004, 11:17 PM
Let's see Knizzle,

Venus and Justine played twice on clay: The first time, Justine spanks Venus in straight sets. The second Justine should have won in 2 easy sets, but decided to give the title to Venus anyway. It wasn't Venus's strong mental state that won her that match, it Justine's inferior mental capacity. The two times they've played Justine was in complete control to win the match in straight sets.

On clay, I don't see that pattern changing itself. Especially not now. I feel that Venus is getting exceptional attention because there's noone else playing right now. If she meets Myskina in a red clay RG tune-up I'd expect Myskina to win.

joao
Apr 26th, 2004, 12:06 AM
Let's see Knizzle,

Venus and Justine played twice on clay: The first time, Justine spanks Venus in straight sets. The second Justine should have won in 2 easy sets, but decided to give the title to Venus anyway. It wasn't Venus's strong mental state that won her that match, it Justine's inferior mental capacity. The two times they've played Justine was in complete control to win the match in straight sets.

On clay, I don't see that pattern changing itself. Especially not now. I feel that Venus is getting exceptional attention because there's noone else playing right now. If she meets Myskina in a red clay RG tune-up I'd expect Myskina to win.
You almost got me ... until your last sentence! :lol:

Knizzle
Apr 26th, 2004, 01:14 AM
Let's see Knizzle,

Venus and Justine played twice on clay: The first time, Justine spanks Venus in straight sets. The second Justine should have won in 2 easy sets, but decided to give the title to Venus anyway. It wasn't Venus's strong mental state that won her that match, it Justine's inferior mental capacity. The two times they've played Justine was in complete control to win the match in straight sets.
Mental strength is a part of tennis. Losing because of mental weakness is not an excuse. If Venus' mental toughness had absolutely nothing to do with the situation Justine WOULD have won in 2 sets at AI.

On clay, I don't see that pattern changing itself. Especially not now. I feel that Venus is getting exceptional attention because there's noone else playing right now.
You mean like Justine got when she won those hardcourt tournaments last summer?? :confused:

If she meets Myskina in a red clay RG tune-up I'd expect Myskina to win.
*sigh*

Why is that shap_half?? :rolleyes:

bandabou
Apr 26th, 2004, 04:48 AM
Before we call Justine the dominating clay-courter of today, let´s wait for her to defend her RG-title first....

DUNEMAN
Apr 26th, 2004, 10:03 AM
Before we call Justine the dominating clay-courter of today, let´s wait for her to defend her RG-title first....

RG, is going to be the where all debts are settled this year. Lets hope injuries don't ruin it.

cool bird
Apr 26th, 2004, 11:15 AM
Red clay is brick dust. And Green clay is somesort of rock dust

DA FOREHAND
Apr 26th, 2004, 12:29 PM
Let's see Knizzle,

Venus and Justine played twice on clay: The first time, Justine spanks Venus in straight sets. The second Justine should have won in 2 easy sets, but decided to give the title to Venus anyway. It wasn't Venus's strong mental state that won her that match, it Justine's inferior mental capacity. The two times they've played Justine was in complete control to win the match in straight sets.

On clay, I don't see that pattern changing itself. Especially not now. I feel that Venus is getting exceptional attention because there's noone else playing right now. If she meets Myskina in a red clay RG tune-up I'd expect Myskina to win.
I take it you also believe that justine being way up on Venus in that match had nothing to do w/Venus' terrible play, and was all about justine..right? :lol: :tape:

Get real! And yes Venus beat then world number one Martina Hingis twice on the red stuff. I still say her claycourt record is better than Serena's.