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View Full Version : Who was the better player: Graf or Seles


Dr.Phil
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Here is their H2H
Steffi GRAF (GER) v Monica SELES (USA)

1989 French Open Clay (O) SF Steffi GRAF 6-3 3-6 6-3
1989 Wimbledon Grass (O) 16 Steffi GRAF 6-0 6-1
1989 Brighton Carpet (I) FR Steffi GRAF 7-5 6-4
1990 German Open Clay (O) FR Monica SELES 4-6 3-6
1990 French Open Clay (O) FR Monica SELES 6-7(6) 4-6
1991 San Antonio Hard (O) FR Steffi GRAF 6-4 6-3
1991 Hamburg Clay (O) FR Steffi GRAF 7-5 6-7 6-3
1992 French Open Clay (O) FR Monica SELES 2-6 6-3 8-10
1992 Wimbledon Grass (O) FR Steffi GRAF 6-2 6-1
1993 Australian Open Hard (O) FR Monica SELES 6-4 3-6 2-6
1995 US Open Hard (O) FR Steffi GRAF 7-6 0-6 6-3
1996 US Open Hard (O) FR Steffi GRAF 7-5 6-4
1998 W.T.A. Tour Championships Carpet (I) QF Steffi GRAF 1-6 6-4 6-4
1999 Australian Open Hard (O) QF Monica SELES 5-7 1-6
1999 French Open Clay (O) SF Steffi GRAF 6-7(2) 6-3 6-4

Steffi GRAF (GER) leads 10 : 5

*Graf has a better record against all active players (including vs. Hingis, Davenport and Young Williams sisters, Jana Novatna).

bmxbandit
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Dokic H2H is 1-1 ;)

Dr.Phil
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Dokic H2H is 1-1 ;)
I ment active players..THAT MATTER (or MATTERED) :tape: :tape:

bmxbandit
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:36 PM
I ment active players..THAT MATTER (or MATTERED) :tape: :tape:
Yea, none of the other players that "matter" have been in a slump...:rolleyes:

Dr.Phil
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Yea, none of the other players that "matter" have been in a slump...:rolleyes:

It was a joke, take a chill pill, get off the over-reaction train, keep your pants on, hold your breath and count to ten.

SilviaFan
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:39 PM
Graf was the better player.
The matches were very great to look at!
Graf was such an elegance, beautiful tennisplayer.
Really Great!!!!! I really want her back on the tenniscourt.


:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Infiniti2001
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:41 PM
I really don't care which is/was best, because I like/love them both equally :banana: :worship:

morbidangle
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:48 PM
They were both great! and I hope this doesn't start another Graf/ Seles argument!
I liked Steffi more.. but Monica was fab too.

Steffi never played Dokic in a WTA match, they played twice during Steffi's farewell exhibition series.

AlwaysGraf
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:57 PM
hehe here we go again
Wasn't gonna add b ut couldnt help it ....
Graf was better
Their H2H shows that between 91-93 ( a la pre stabbing!!), that Graf was right with Seles. People are quick to say Seles was just in a class of her own, Graf could handle her though,it's not like Seles was thrashing her!!

wimbledonwinner
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Well I think that if Seles wasn't stabbed in Germany ten years ago she would have gone onto greater success than Steffi and the whole Grand Slam results sheet would look very different.

daniela86
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Well I think that if Seles wasn't stabbed in Germany ten years ago she would have gone onto greater success than Steffi and the whole Grand Slam results sheet would look very different.

I agree!! :bounce: For me,Seles was a better player without doubt!She deserved her place of number 1 obviously when she was stabbed!

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:20 PM
Don´t know about better...all I know that without stabbing Graf wins fewer than 22 majors and Seles wins more than 9.

A'DAM
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:21 PM
I think that question is much to difficult :o

!<blocparty>!
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:30 PM
seles was definately the better player.

I tend to judge to players against each other comparing them when they are at their best, and I think that when seles was at her best, and graf was at her best, seles would have won. IMO.

Volcana
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:31 PM
Pre-stabbing, Seles is better

Post-stabbing, Graf is better

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:44 PM
Steffi's 3 wins in 1989 were when Monica was 15. And 4 of her other wins came after the stabbing were Monica had trouble finishing off 3 set matches against top players because mentally she was not the same. But at their peak between 1990-1993, Monica had a 4-3 record overall against Steffi and 3-1 in slams. And Monica was only getting stronger.

SelesFan70
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Alas, we shall never really know, will we? :mad: Thanks Gunther Parche, you freak! :( I hope there is a Hell just for you. :devil: And to all the players, except La Sabatini, who allowed you get away with taking Monica's #1 ranking, I give them liberal mandated visitation rights! :angel:

Circe
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:27 PM
hasn't the board been through this a dozen times already?

spencercarlos
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:36 PM
Steffi's 3 wins in 1989 were when Monica was 15. And 4 of her other wins came after the stabbing were Monica had trouble finishing off 3 set matches against top players because mentally she was not the same. But at their peak between 1990-1993, Monica had a 4-3 record overall against Steffi and 3-1 in slams. And Monica was only getting stronger.
Excatly but once again neither 4-3 and 3-1 in grand slams during 1990-1993 are not that huge of a lead like 10-5 is and 3-3 overall in grand slam finals played (6-4 Graf leads h2h in slam play, incluiding a 3-3 before the stabbing). Too tough to say, Monica was the best player during this period but she NEVER owned Steffi Graf.

fammmmedspin
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:51 PM
Pre-stabbing, Seles is better

Post-stabbing, Graf is betterPre-pre-stabbing Graf was better in 91 and Monica in 90..........Pre-stabbing Monica had some great wins (2 anyway) but a 2-1 GS ratio doesn't tell you much about what post AO 93 would have been like.

Its impossible to say who was better as Monica's career was foreshortened. They also had remarkably few meetingss to judge from. You can't extrapolate from just AO93 and FO 92 anymore than you could from W 92 (or W97 and USO 97 or AO2003 and W2003.............).

VivalaSeles
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:56 PM
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH N-O-O-O-O-O :bolt:

fammmmedspin
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:12 PM
seles was definately the better player.

I tend to judge to players against each other comparing them when they are at their best, and I think that when seles was at her best, and graf was at her best, seles would have won. IMO.
We never saw Graf play Seles at Graf's best when Seles was at her best. Graf evolved after 1993. We never saw what Monica would have evolved into. What Monica had in 1993 wouldn't have been enough in in 1995 and we don't know what would have replaced her 1993 form - she could have been competitive - she might not. You can't argue that something you havn't seen is better than something you have (and Graf would have developed to match Seles more if she had been around to play so you can't even judge her form)All you have are a few snapshots in time from 1992-93. They just suggest things were close. Extrapolating from AO 93 is as futile as arguing that Seles of 1993 would beat Hingis in 1997 or that Hingis of 1997 would go on to have three times as many GS as Venus Williams.

Spirit
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:19 PM
hasn't the board been through this a dozen times already?
We haven't met our quota this year.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:20 PM
We never saw Graf play Seles at Graf's best when Seles was at her best. Graf evolved after 1993. We never saw what Monica would have evolved into. What Monica had in 1993 wouldn't have been enough in in 1995 and we don't know what would have replaced her 1993 form - she could have been competitive - she might not. You can't argue that something you havn't seen is better than something you have (and Graf would have developed to match Seles more if she had been around to play so you can't even judge her form)All you have are a few snapshots in time from 1992-93. They just suggest things were close. Extrapolating from AO 93 is as futile as arguing that Seles of 1993 would beat Hingis in 1997 or that Hingis of 1997 would go on to have three times as many GS as Venus Williams.

Excuse me? In 1993, Steffi struggled against the likes of Fernandez and Novotna in grandslam finals. In 1994, she only won 1 slam. In 1995 & 1996, she struggled against Aranxta. And even MONICA after 2.5 years absence almost beat her in the US Open, including a 6-0 set. And even Monica out of shape and not the same mentally had several close matches against Steffi after the stabbing. Steffi did not improve, she just got more confidence when Monica was not there because she knew there was no competition. PLEASE. :rolleyes:

hythger
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Graf all the way!!!
Although I do think Seles is an amazing player!!!

arcus
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:51 PM
I prefer monica, cos I liked her mode of play, her heart in matches and most of all demeanor, she is SO CLASSY.

Who is best, though? Overall I think you just have to say graf, because the record is there. Also Seles was not as great on grass and that ruled her out of one of the slams, whereas graf mauled poor unfortunates on all surfaces with equal efficiency.

However, on a neutral surface, with both at their best, I think I would pick seles to win, mainly because graf had a semi-weakness, a relatively defensive backhand, and seles was devastating off both sides.

Of course I cant say how good seles could have been. That stab wound was less than a 1/4 inch deep, but the real injury was mental not physical, and mental was where monica excelled. I dont think she was ever the same head-wise afterwards.

And I might get drilled for saying this, and no one was more mad about what happened in germany than me, but you have to remember that the guy that stabbed her had a serious mental illness, so he genuinely did have diminished responsibility at the time. Of course thats no consolation for monica, but you cant view it like that tonya harding thing, where is was premeditated by a person in full possession of their faculties.

Sad, but she still achieved so much, its not right to dwell on the "what-ifs". Many will never have her success.

And like I said, I see no one who was as classy as her. Come back monica!!

MLF
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Pre-stabbing, Seles is better

Post-stabbing, Graf is better

This is very simply put, but also very true. Seles was better from '91 to her stabbing in '93 ( when she was still a teenager which I think people forget ). Graf was also at an extremely high level at this time too though Seles had the edge. Their matches would never have been a foregone conclusion though.

grmbl
Apr 20th, 2004, 10:27 PM
monica ofcourse

disposablehero
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:36 AM
Here is their H2H
Steffi GRAF (GER) v Monica SELES (USA)

1989 French Open Clay (O) SF Steffi GRAF 6-3 3-6 6-3
1989 Wimbledon Grass (O) 16 Steffi GRAF 6-0 6-1
1989 Brighton Carpet (I) FR Steffi GRAF 7-5 6-4
1990 German Open Clay (O) FR Monica SELES 4-6 3-6
1990 French Open Clay (O) FR Monica SELES 6-7(6) 4-6
1991 San Antonio Hard (O) FR Steffi GRAF 6-4 6-3
1991 Hamburg Clay (O) FR Steffi GRAF 7-5 6-7 6-3
1992 French Open Clay (O) FR Monica SELES 2-6 6-3 8-10
1992 Wimbledon Grass (O) FR Steffi GRAF 6-2 6-1
1993 Australian Open Hard (O) FR Monica SELES 6-4 3-6 2-6
1995 US Open Hard (O) FR Steffi GRAF 7-6 0-6 6-3
1996 US Open Hard (O) FR Steffi GRAF 7-5 6-4
1998 W.T.A. Tour Championships Carpet (I) QF Steffi GRAF 1-6 6-4 6-4
1999 Australian Open Hard (O) QF Monica SELES 5-7 1-6
1999 French Open Clay (O) SF Steffi GRAF 6-7(2) 6-3 6-4

Steffi GRAF (GER) leads 10 : 5

*Graf has a better record against all active players (including vs. Hingis, Davenport and Young Williams sisters, Jana Novatna).
Who was better? Steffi up until somewhere between March and May of 1990. Monica from that point until April 30, 1993. Steffi after that.

disposablehero
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:38 AM
Pre-pre-stabbing Graf was better in 91 and Monica in 90.
91?

1 Slam out of 4 versus 3 out of 3. I'm not sure everyone would agree with you.

azinna
Apr 21st, 2004, 04:00 AM
Excuse me? In 1993, Steffi struggled against the likes of Fernandez and Novotna in grandslam finals. In 1994, she only won 1 slam. In 1995 & 1996, she struggled against Aranxta. And even MONICA after 2.5 years absence almost beat her in the US Open, including a 6-0 set. And even Monica out of shape and not the same mentally had several close matches against Steffi after the stabbing. Steffi did not improve, she just got more confidence when Monica was not there because she knew there was no competition. PLEASE. :rolleyes:

Actually, Graf was able, by 1995, to develop her slice bakchand into a difficult-to-handle shot. In 1993 it was almost purely defensive, at most neutralising. Hence her difficulties with every player out there in 1993 and 1994.

There are several reasons why post-stabbing Monica didn't beat Steffi as often as before. I think the obvious ones have been mentioned and repeated. But an often overlooked one is that it became all the more difficult to hit a forcing shot of any sort (winner, set-up or approach) off Steffi's backhand. Watch the difficulty Monica, Pierce, Lindsay, Jana, Hingis, Venus and Serena had with the late 90s version of the shot.

faboozadoo15
Apr 21st, 2004, 04:01 AM
monica at her best would be better than steffi at her best. she has more weapons and she almost always won the long rallies against steffi making her fitness (as compared to steffi) almost a non issue.

faboozadoo15
Apr 21st, 2004, 04:07 AM
well we could also break it down like this
serve- steffi had a better serve most of the time when she played monica, however in 93 monica had really kicked up her serve and in the aus (the only tourney we can go by) she served better and more effectively than steffi but after she came back she had shoulder problems. so i say tie with maybe a slight edge to steffi, but the argument can be made for monica as well

return- achem, huge ass edge to monica. unless you really like slice backhand returns

forehand- steffi, but monica's was always more difficult to read and plays better crosscourt angles, but steffi's was better overall.

backhand- another big edge to monica

volleys- steffi conventional, monica unconventional, both effective and kinda rare shots for either player.

speed- steffi by a lot

anticipation- monica

and it always seemed that monica was mentally stronger... but i won't count that.

spencercarlos
Apr 21st, 2004, 04:44 AM
well we could also break it down like this
serve- steffi had a better serve most of the time when she played monica, however in 93 monica had really kicked up her serve and in the aus (the only tourney we can go by) she served better and more effectively than steffi but after she came back she had shoulder problems. so i say tie with maybe a slight edge to steffi, but the argument can be made for monica as well

return- achem, huge ass edge to monica. unless you really like slice backhand returns

forehand- steffi, but monica's was always more difficult to read and plays better crosscourt angles, but steffi's was better overall.

backhand- another big edge to monica

volleys- steffi conventional, monica unconventional, both effective and kinda rare shots for either player.

speed- steffi by a lot

anticipation- monica

and it always seemed that monica was mentally stronger... but i won't count that.
Anticipation Monica? laughts.. despite Monica having some of the best groudstrokes ever, her fitness was really average, she never (not even when she was number one) ran that fast enough like Arantxa, Steffi, Serena Henin, or anticipated the shots the way like a Hingis did as well.
Steffi was without any doubt a better volleyer than Seles.
I agree Seles mentally was stronger or seemed stronger pre-stabbing time.
Steffi just got better after that too, so its tough to predict what would have been like.

fan911
Apr 21st, 2004, 04:51 AM
Anticipation Monica? laughts.. despite Monica having some of the best groudstrokes ever, her fitness was really average, she never (not even when she was number one) ran that fast enough like Arantxa, Steffi, Serena Henin, or anticipated the shots the way like a Hingis did as well.
Steffi was without any doubt a better volleyer than Seles.
I agree Seles mentally was stronger or seemed stronger pre-stabbing time.
Steffi just got better after that too, so its tough to predict what would have been like.

Obviously you haven't seen Monica pre-stabbing. She was EXTREMELY fast, in fact one of the fastest players. Have you seen matches like Seles/Capriati at the US Open or basically any match pre-stabbing? :rolleyes: Plus add the fact that she has 2 hands off both sides, and it shows how fast she really was to get there. She was so light on her feet and moved extremely well. Also she was very fit, otherwise she wouldn't have won all those incredible 3 set marathon matches, and also a 5-setter against Sabatini. :rolleyes:

And Steffi is not without any doubt a better volleyer. I'd say they are both average.

spencercarlos
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:07 AM
Obviously you haven't seen Monica pre-stabbing. She was EXTREMELY fast, in fact one of the fastest players. Have you seen matches like Seles/Capriati at the US Open or basically any match pre-stabbing? :rolleyes: Plus add the fact that she has 2 hands off both sides, and it shows how fast she really was to get there. She was so light on her feet and moved extremely well. Also she was very fit, otherwise she wouldn't have won all those incredible 3 set marathon matches, and also a 5-setter against Sabatini. :rolleyes:

And Steffi is not without any doubt a better volleyer. I'd say they are both average.
She won those matches and those slams based WAY more on her strokes than on her running or defensive skills. I have been following tennis since March 1992, i know how Monica played and moved during that period, yes she moved better than after the stabbing in fact Monica only could reach that fitness kind of level ONLY ONCE after the stabbing.... back to the Frenchopen in 1998 where she was so thin. But Monica never relied on her movement skills, in fact it was well known the only way to beat Monica was to put her on the defensive and making her come to the net (to make her move from her strenght... the baseline)..

GoSandrine
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:13 AM
Well I think that if Seles wasn't stabbed in Germany ten years ago she would have gone onto greater success than Steffi and the whole Grand Slam results sheet would look very different.
agreed :yeah:

I believe their rivalry could have rivaled Evert-Navratiilova if the stabbing hadn't occured although they probably wouldn't have met quite as many times.

It seems Monica's priorities in life changed and she wasn't as driven to do the things necessary (fitness, etc) to become #1 again when she returned to the tour. No shame in that. She still competes well, has had a hall of fame career and is a great spokesperson for the women's game. I hope she's not ready to hang up the sneakers just yet. :)

tennisIlove09
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:15 AM
Graf is the better athlete
Seles is the better shot maker

irma
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:22 AM
She won those matches and those slams based WAY more on her strokes than on her running or defensive skills. I have been following tennis since March 1992, i know how Monica played and moved during that period, yes she moved better than after the stabbing in fact Monica only could reach that fitness kind of level ONLY ONCE after the stabbing.... back to the Frenchopen in 1998 where she was so thin. But Monica never relied on her movement skills, in fact it was well known the only way to beat Monica was to put her on the defensive and making her come to the net (to make her move from her strenght... the baseline)..
Monica's defensive skills were excellent. That made her so hard to beat. She was able to get everything back with few ue's and she was able to hit winners in the end too.

spencercarlos
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:34 AM
Monica's defensive skills were excellent. That made her so hard to beat. She was able to get everything back with few ue's and she was able to hit winners in the end too.
Were better i agree, not excelent aka Arantxa, Conchita, Sabatini (back then), Clijsters, Venus, Serena ,Henin (recent), even Steffi gets into this category.
Also the Few errors part i agree Monica would rarely miss a shot, people had to win the points against her, i think she lost that mental toughness after the stabbing, that one that made her being so tough to let down, so tough to beat because she would not miss a ball.

R&J
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:40 AM
They were both great! and I hope this doesn't start another Graf/ Seles argument!
I liked Steffi more.. but Monica was fab too.


I agree with you....but for me....



I like Monica more....but Steffi was good.

Martian KC
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:45 AM
Monica Seles, without a doubt!:angel:

SpikeyAidanm
Apr 21st, 2004, 06:08 AM
Seles had the more talent but overall (circumstances abiding), Graf was by far the more successful of the two.

space_eef03
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:53 AM
I liked them both but Steffi was my favourite.
As for talent I don't know I just enjoyed the matches they played against eachother!!!

Dolpho
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:21 AM
They are equally talented I think, no one knows what would have happened had Seles not been stabbed, but we all know what happened when she was! Success isn't always a measure of talent....but still Go Steffany! :D

tennisjunky
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:31 AM
Theyre both great. One thing about Graf though, is that throughout her career there was never a player on tour that had her number. Even in her last year in her career Graf scored wins over all the players that Monica struggled to win against. Players like Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, they all consistently won more than they lost against Monica. Martina actually beat Seles 6-0, 6-0 and beat Seles 15 times out of 20 matches. Hingis had no answers for Steffi though, and out of 13 matches only managed to win 3. Same goes for Lindsay who would always crush Seles, but lost to Steffi most of the time.

VivalaSeles
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:45 AM
People have short memories. Seles was injured and could barely move in her double bagel against Hingis. Plus Graf only played Hingis 9 times, winning 7.

schris
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:53 AM
Steffi Graf :)

tennisjunky
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:00 AM
People have short memories. Seles was injured and could barely move in her double bagel against Hingis. Plus Graf only played Hingis 9 times, winning 7.
Im sorry, I wasnt meaning any disrespect to Seles. I really like her, I was just making the point that Monica struggled against a few players and Steffi beat all the players that Monica had a hard time beating. I didnt know Seles was hurt, but Im glad to know it now, that explains a lot.

Im not sure why you say Graf only played Hingis 9 times because thats a lot of times to play someone. And Steffi dominated hingis only losing twice in nine matches. If you look at the first nine times Hingis played Monica then you see Monica didnt do so well. Monica lost Monica 7 out of 9 times, so that just prooves my point.

I want to change my answer and say theyre equal, I really have no interest getting in the middle of this never-ending debate.




.

per4ever
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:08 AM
Steffi Graf all the way :)

tennisjunky
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:23 AM
vivalaseles I see why you said that, it because I mistyped Steffi and Hingis matchups ;)

irma
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:57 AM
Theyre both great. One thing about Graf though, is that throughout her career there was never a player on tour that had her number. Even in her last year in her career Graf scored wins over all the players that Monica struggled to win against. Players like Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, they all consistently won more than they lost against Monica. Martina actually beat Seles 6-0, 6-0 and beat Seles 15 times out of 20 matches. Hingis had no answers for Steffi though, and out of 13 matches only managed to win 3. Same goes for Lindsay who would always crush Seles, but lost to Steffi most of the time.Steffi struggled way more with the Sabatini's and ASV's of this world though. sure Steffi still has convincing winning head to heads but she struggled anyway. so you can make points on both sides there.

But we will never have answer on this question anyway
Steffi fans say Steffi
Monica fans say Monica
neutral fans either go with Monica because they feel she was robbed, or Steffi because in the end of the day she has better records
And some will say that both sucked and the real talents should have owned them if they would have been able to serve and had iron nerves :p

tennisjunky
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:18 AM
Steffi struggled way more with the Sabatini's and ASV's of this world though. sure Steffi still has convincing winning head to heads but she struggled anyway. so you can make points on both sides there.

But we will never have answer on this question anyway
Steffi fans say Steffi
Monica fans say Monica
neutral fans either go with Monica because they feel she was robbed, or Steffi because in the end of the day she has better records
And some will say that both sucked and the real talents should have owned them if they would have been able to serve and had iron nerves :p
I have to correct you on a couple of things. First off, I dont like Steffi better than I like Monica. I actually like Monica more, but I think Steffi is the better player. Secondly, Steffi dominated both ASV and Sabatini in their head to heads, whereas Monica was dominated by her opponents, so there's a huge difference. Steffi didnt get beat most of the time by any player, and Monica did. Cant I still be a fan even if I think Steffi was better :confused:

I know Justine is better than Myskina, but I still like Myskina better.

fan911
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:41 AM
One thing you forget is that Monica before the stabbing was also NOT dominated by any opponent just like Steffi. It's only AFTER the stabbing that it happened and we know that Monica was not the same player, especially mentally.

irma
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:50 AM
I have to correct you on a couple of things. First off, I dont like Steffi better than I like Monica. I actually like Monica more, but I think Steffi is the better player. Secondly, Steffi dominated both ASV and Sabatini in their head to heads, whereas Monica was dominated by her opponents, so there's a huge difference. Steffi didnt get beat most of the time by any player, and Monica did. Cant I still be a fan even if I think Steffi was better :confused:

I know Justine is better than Myskina, but I still like Myskina better.
Nope (j/k of course)
As a biased Steffi fan I don't want to bring you from your believes so of course you can think Steffi is better :lol:
My point is only that Steffi had her struggles too. She also lost 6:0 6:1 once. (and that's oke. she is just human afterall)

fan911
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:51 AM
Irma, I missed you ;)

hingis-seles
Apr 21st, 2004, 12:02 PM
Neither. They were talentless hacks. Absolutely pathetic players. They stole all the Slams from the real talents of the WTA Tour in the early nineties. Among the greatest talents were Nathalie Tauziat and Conchita Martinez. They deserved to win all the Slams because they were the actual talented ones. They were robbed!

Evil Steffi :fiery:

Evil Monica :fiery:

faboozadoo15
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:59 PM
Secondly, Steffi dominated both ASV and Sabatini in their head to heads, whereas Monica was dominated by her opponents, so there's a huge difference. Steffi didnt get beat most of the time by any player, and Monica did. Cant I still be a fan even if I think Steffi was better :confused:
I know Justine is better than Myskina, but I still like Myskina better.
WTF???
Monica Seles (USA) vs. Gabriela Sabatini (ARG)
1988-03-14 Key Biscayne Hardcourt R64 Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 7-6 6-3
1990-11-12 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 5-7 3-6 6-4 6-2
1991-03-11 Key Biscayne Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 7-5
1991-05-06 Rome Clay F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-3 6-2
1991-05-27 Roland Garros Clay SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 6-1
1991-11-18 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 6-1
1992-05-04 Rome Clay F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 7-5 6-4
1992-05-25 Roland Garros Clay SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 4-6 6-4
1992-09-21 Tokyo Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 6-0
1992-11-16 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet SF Monica Seles (USA) 7-6(5) 6-1
1993-01-18 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 6-2
1995-08-14 Toronto Hardcourt SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 6-0
1996-07-22 The Olympics Hardcourt R16 Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 6-3
1996-08-05 Montreal Hardcourt R16 Monica Seles (USA) 7-6 6-1


Monica Seles (USA) vs. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP)
1989-09-18 Dallas Indoor Carpet QF Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 6-2
1990-11-12 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet QF Monica Seles (USA) 5-7 7-6 6-4
1991-04-29 Hamburg Clay SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 6-4
1991-05-27 Roland Garros Clay F Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 6-4
1991-08-12 Los Angeles Hardcourt SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-7 6-4 6-4
1991-11-11 Philadelphia Indoor Carpet SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 6-2
1992-01-13 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 6-2
1992-04-20 Barcelona Clay F Monica Seles (USA) 3-6 6-2 6-3
1992-08-10 Los Angeles Hardcourt SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 6-2
1992-08-17 Montreal Hardcourt F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-3 4-6 6-4
1992-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 6-3
1996-08-05 Montreal Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 7-6
1996-09-16 Tokyo Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 6-4
1996-09-28 Fed Cup (WG-FL) ESP vs. USA Indoor Carpet RR Monica Seles (USA) 3-6 6-3 6-1
1997-09-15 Tokyo Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 3-6 7-6(5)
1997-11-17 Chase Championships Indoor Carpet R16 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 3-6 6-4 6-4
1998-05-25 Roland Garros Clay F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 7-6(5) 0-6 6-2
1998-07-25 Fed Cup (WG-SF) ESP vs. USA Clay RR Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 6-0
1998-08-17 Montreal Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 6-2
1998-09-21 Tokyo Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-4
2000-04-10 Amelia Island Clay QF Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 6-3
2000-06-26 Wimbledon Grass R16 Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 6-4
2002-03-04 Indian Wells Hardcourt QF Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 3-6 6-3

steffi against arantxa
1988-08-22 Mahwah Hardcourt R16 Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-0
1989-04-03 Hilton Head Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-4
1989-04-10 Amelia Island Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-2
1989-05-29 Roland Garros Clay F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 7-6 3-6 7-5
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass QF Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 6-1
1990-01-29 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-1 6-2
1990-04-09 Amelia Island Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-1 6-0
1990-04-30 Hamburg Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-0 6-1
1990-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-1 6-2
1990-09-24 Leipzig Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-1 6-1
1991-05-13 Berlin Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 4-6 7-6
1991-05-27 Roland Garros Clay SF Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-0 6-2
1992-04-06 Amelia Island Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-7 6-4 6-3
1992-04-27 Hamburg Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 7-6 6-2
1992-05-11 Berlin Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 4-6 7-5 6-2
1992-05-25 Roland Garros Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 0-6 6-2 6-2
1992-07-19 Fed Cup (WG-FL) ESP vs. GER Clay RR Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 6-2
1992-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt QF Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 7-6 6-3
1992-11-09 Philadelphia Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 3-6 6-1
1993-01-18 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 6-4
1993-03-01 Delray Beach Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 6-3
1993-03-08 Key Biscayne Hardcourt F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-4 3-6 6-3
1993-03-29 Hilton Head Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 7-6(8) 6-1
1993-04-26 Hamburg Clay F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-3 6-3
1993-08-02 San Diego Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 4-6 6-1
1993-11-15 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-1 6-4 3-6 6-1
1994-01-17 Australian Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-0 6-2
1994-02-28 Delray Beach Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 7-5
1994-04-25 Hamburg Clay F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 4-6 7-6 7-6
1994-08-01 San Diego Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-1
1994-08-15 Montreal Hardcourt F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 7-5 1-6 7-6
1994-08-29 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 1-6 7-6(3) 6-4
1995-05-29 Roland Garros Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 4-6 6-0
1995-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 4-6 6-1 7-5
1996-05-27 Roland Garros Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-7(4) 10-8
1996-06-24 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 7-5

steffi against sabatini
1985-08-12 Mahwah Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 4-6 6-0 6-3
1986-03-17 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet R16 Steffi Graf (GER) 6-0 6-7 6-2
1986-04-28 Indianapolis Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 2-6 7-6 6-4
1987-04-06 Hilton Head Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 2-6 7-6
1987-04-13 Amelia Island Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-2
1987-05-04 Rome Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 4-6 6-0
1987-05-25 Roland Garros Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 4-6 7-5
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass QF Steffi Graf (GER) 4-6 6-1 6-1
1987-07-26 Fed Cup (WG-QF) ARG vs. FRG Hardcourt RR Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 6-4
1987-08-10 Los Angeles Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 7-5
1987-11-16 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 4-6 6-4 6-0 6-4
1988-03-07 Boca Raton Hardcourt F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 2-6 6-3 6-1
1988-04-11 Amelia Island Clay SF Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-3 4-6 7-5
1988-05-23 Roland Garros Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 7-6
1988-08-29 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 3-6 6-1
1988-09-19 The Olympics Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-3
1989-01-16 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-0
1989-04-10 Amelia Island Clay F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 3-6 6-3 7-5
1989-05-15 Berlin Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 3-6 6-4 6-2
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 5-7 6-1
1990-08-27 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-2 7-6
1990-10-08 Zurich Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-2
1990-11-05 Worcester Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 7-6 6-3
1990-11-12 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet SF Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-4 6-4
1991-01-28 Tokyo Indoor Carpet QF Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 4-6 6-4 7-6
1991-03-04 Boca Raton Hardcourt F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-4 7-6
1991-03-11 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 0-6 7-6 6-1
1991-04-08 Amelia Island Clay F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 7-5 7-6
1991-06-24 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 3-6 8-6
1992-03-09 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 3-6 7-6 6-1
1992-04-06 Amelia Island Clay F Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-2 1-6 6-3
1992-06-22 Wimbledon Grass SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-3
1993-03-08 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-0 6-2
1993-03-29 Hilton Head Clay SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-0 7-6(3)
1993-05-10 Berlin Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 7-6(3) 2-6 6-4
1993-08-30 U.S. Open Hardcourt QF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 5-7 6-1
1994-08-15 Montreal Hardcourt QF Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 6-0
1995-05-29 Roland Garros Clay QF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-1 6-0
1995-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 7-6(5)


monica has a better head 2 head record than steffi against both of these girls...

faboozadoo15
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:01 PM
lets try nav

Steffi Graf (GER) vs. Martina Navratilova (USA)
1985-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-3
1985-09-30 Fort Lauderdale Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-1
1986-03-17 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-2
1986-05-12 Berlin Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-3
1986-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-1 6-7 7-6
1986-11-17 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-3 6-2
1987-02-23 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Steffi Graf (GER) 6-3 6-2
1987-05-25 Roland Garros Clay F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 4-6 8-6
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 6-3
1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-1
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf (GER) 3-6 7-5 6-1
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 7-5 2-6 6-2
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-7 6-4
1992-10-05 Zurich Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 2-6 7-5 7-5
1993-02-01 Tokyo Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-3
1994-01-31 Tokyo Indoor Carpet F Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-4

Monica Seles (USA) vs. Martina Navratilova (USA)
1989-09-18 Dallas Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-3
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet QF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 5-7 7-5
1990-02-19 Washington Indoor Carpet SF Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-0
1990-05-07 Rome Clay F Monica Seles (USA) 6-1 6-1
1990-08-13 Los Angeles Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 3-6 7-6
1990-10-29 Oakland Indoor Carpet F Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 7-6
1991-02-25 Palm Springs Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 7-6
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Monica Seles (USA) 7-6 6-1
1991-09-30 Milan Indoor Carpet F Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 3-6 6-4
1991-11-04 Oakland Indoor Carpet F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 3-6 6-3
1991-11-18 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 3-6 7-5 6-0
1992-06-22 Wimbledon Grass SF Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 6-7 6-4
1992-08-10 Los Angeles Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 6-2
1992-11-02 Oakland Indoor Carpet F Monica Seles (USA) 6-3 6-4
1992-11-16 Virginia Slims Championships Indoor Carpet F Monica Seles (USA) 7-5 6-3 6-1
1993-02-08 Chicago Indoor Carpet F Monica Seles (USA) 3-6 6-2 6-1
1993-02-15 Paris Indoor Hardcourt F Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 4-6 7-6

Kart
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:09 PM
Neither. They were talentless hacks. Absolutely pathetic players. They stole all the Slams from the real talents of the WTA Tour in the early nineties. Among the greatest talents were Nathalie Tauziat and Conchita Martinez. They deserved to win all the Slams because they were the actual talented ones. They were robbed!

Evil Steffi :fiery:

Evil Monica :fiery:
HELLO aren't we forgetting the biggest victim ???? :smash: ;)

<--------------------------------------- ROBBED :mad:

Never mind Steffi :hearts: and Monica :hearts:, you can have the slams ... but the named rose and line of international perfumes stay where they are :armed:.

Ballbuster
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:09 PM
Steffi - by a mile.

Stefwhit
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:19 PM
faboozadoo15 - I don't think that was the point 'tennisjunky' was making. I actually did a thread on that very subject and I think the point being made was that Steffi has a winning records against all of her most competitive rivals including Aranxta and Gabby. While Monica is completley THRASHED in her H2H records against her most competitive rivals- Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Steffi Graf, Serena Williams, and Venus Williams.

I think the point being made was that there is no player that dominated Steffi, but when it comes to Monica there are several players that could EASILY take care of her. She may have done better in her H2Hs than Steffi did against some players, but Steffi still leads or is tied with all of her rivals, the same CAN NOT be said of Monica Seles.

I'm pretty sure that's what he/she was getting at.

It's not even a close call in my book.... STEFFI all the WAY... :worship: :worship:

faboozadoo15
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:21 PM
Anticipation Monica? laughts.. despite Monica having some of the best groudstrokes ever, her fitness was really average, she never (not even when she was number one) ran that fast enough like Arantxa, Steffi, Serena Henin, or anticipated the shots the way like a Hingis did as well.
Steffi was without any doubt a better volleyer than Seles.
I agree Seles mentally was stronger or seemed stronger pre-stabbing time.
Steffi just got better after that too, so its tough to predict what would have been like.
anticipation doesn't really have anything to do with quickness, it's about reflexes and mentally knowing where the ball was going, and monica was better at that than anyone. in a sprint, steffi would win, that's why i gave her speed and why i gave monica anticipation.

fan911
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:23 PM
While Monica is completley THRASHED in her H2H records against her most competitive rivals- Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, Steffi Graf, Serena Williams, and Venus Williams.

But all those head-to-heads that you mention are AFTER the stabbing when Monica was a shadow of her former self. Before the stabbing, she had an incredible record against everyone, then a knife changed her tennis career. She hasn't been the same since, especially mentally. Let's see Steffi being stabbed and missing years in her prime, and we'll see how she would do against these players after her comeback when she has less experience, less confidence, less intimidation, and a different outlook on her tennis career.

faboozadoo15
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:24 PM
steffi retired in 99 when the williams sisters had a combined 1 slam, lindsay had only won 2 (by end of 99) and was taking over their head to head, and monica was dominated by martina early on in after her comeback...

Stefwhit
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:39 PM
steffi retired in 99 when the williams sisters had a combined 1 slam, lindsay had only won 2 (by end of 99) and was taking over their head to head, and monica was dominated by martina early on in after her comeback...
What's your point?!!? Are you suggesting that in 99 Steffi, at the age of 29, was at her peak?? It just so happens that in 99 Serena had nice winning streak and ended up winning the US Open, so she was definitely playing some good tennis. And if your point is that both Serena and Venus weren't that good in 99 then explain to me why Seles performed so BADLY against them.

I noticed that you didn't talk about Lindsay or Hingis.... :lol: What's you're excuse there??

But all those head-to-heads that you mention are AFTER the stabbing when Monica was a shadow of her former self. Before the stabbing, she had an incredible record against everyone, then a knife changed her tennis career. She hasn't been the same since, especially mentally. Let's see Steffi being stabbed and missing years in her prime, and we'll see how she would do against these players after her comeback when she has less experience, less confidence, less intimidation, and a different outlook on her tennis career.
You honestly think that Hingis wouldn't still be able to exploit Seles' slow movement and dominate her, or that Lindsay still wouldn't be able to out hit Seles, or that Venus would have struggled against Seles, or that Serena would have lost more often than not against her had she not missed two years????!!!.... this is one example where some diluted fans use the tragedy that happened to Seles to their benefit claiming that had that not occured she would have winning records against everyone she currently has a losing record against....keep dreaming!! Seles has commented several times that she has a hard time returning Lindsay's and Serena's serves- why would that all the sudden be any different? I can't wait to hear your answers....

You also say, "let's see Steffi being stabbed missing years in her prime...". Well Steffi didn't play these players in her prime, but was STILL able to hang tough with them, and Seles can't....

faboozadoo15
Apr 22nd, 2004, 01:47 AM
i dont understand what any of this has to do with steffi vs monica. just because after monica's comeback she wasn't what she once was doesn't mean that at her best she was still better than steffi ever was...

fan911
Apr 22nd, 2004, 01:52 AM
And before some idiot Graf fan saids that Steffi was better then Monica before the stabbing (6-4), remember that 3 of those wins were in 1989 when Monica was 15 and still not a complete player AND Monica had a 3-1 record in grandslam finals against Steffi which is the ultimate detail that proves who was no.1 and who was no.2. Monica in 1990-1993 was 4-3 against Steffi overall and 3-1 in grandslam finals. ENOUGH SAID. Everything that happened after the stabbing is not part of real talent, but it's based on a crime that helped one career and destroyed another, thanks to a KNIFE.

CASE CLOSED.

cometz9
Apr 22nd, 2004, 02:01 AM
monica seles :worship: :worship: :worship:

irma
Apr 22nd, 2004, 04:32 AM
steffi retired in 99 when the williams sisters had a combined 1 slam, lindsay had only won 2 (by end of 99) and was taking over their head to head, and monica was dominated by martina early on in after her comeback...
Lindsay played her best tennis in 98/99 and stopped doing so after australia 2000. so she was definitely in her prime.
Serena won the us open in 99. it's ridiculous to claim she was inferior (you don't, but some do)
Venus ended the year as number 3 so she can't have been that bad
and when all these players were so far from their prime. then steffi was a million miles from her prime. just watch my fav sandra nacuk match in Berlin;)

but then what's prime anyway. a match is a match. if only the wins of each player have worth then we get boring statistics;)

spencercarlos
Apr 22nd, 2004, 04:41 AM
And before some idiot Graf fan saids that Steffi was better then Monica before the stabbing (6-4), remember that 3 of those wins were in 1989 when Monica was 15 and still not a complete player AND Monica had a 3-1 record in grandslam finals against Steffi which is the ultimate detail that proves who was no.1 and who was no.2. Monica in 1990-1993 was 4-3 against Steffi overall and 3-1 in grandslam finals. ENOUGH SAID. Everything that happened after the stabbing is not part of real talent, but it's based on a crime that helped one career and destroyed another, thanks to a KNIFE.

CASE CLOSED.
Ok Selesrules well copied :wavey:

spencercarlos
Apr 22nd, 2004, 04:48 AM
anticipation doesn't really have anything to do with quickness, it's about reflexes and mentally knowing where the ball was going, and monica was better at that than anyone. in a sprint, steffi would win, that's why i gave her speed and why i gave monica anticipation.
Oh yeah she anticipated better than anyone... problem is that she not always could get to the balls :rolleyes:

faboozadoo15
Apr 22nd, 2004, 04:53 AM
Oh yeah she anticipated better than anyone... problem is that she not always could get to the balls :rolleyes:
ummm okay, now i completely don't believe you've watched tennis as long as you claim...

spencercarlos
Apr 22nd, 2004, 05:01 AM
ummm okay, now i completely don't believe you've watched tennis as long as you claim...
Im not trying to be mean, i like Monica quite a lot, she is a great champion, but Monica was never a quick player on the court, she moved way better before but it was not like she could use that for example to challenge the likes of today`s hard hitting players. Monica relied more on her power baseline game and of course that power return game (where anticipation is key), but her fitness, athetic department, movement on the court, was average compared to the top performers in that department.

Andy T
Apr 22nd, 2004, 07:42 AM
Graf did not have a better h2h than Navratilova: it was 9-9. Navratilova was, in most people's opinion, a player that mattered.

Serve: Graf by a whisker
Net game/Volley: Graf
Drive volley: Seles
Overhead: Graf
Forehand: Graf
backhand: Seles
Drop shot: Seles
Lob: Seles
Passing shots: Seles

Body/Athleticism: Graf - no question
Brain/Anticipation: Seles (Seles' ability to read the opponent's shots so accurately enabled her to make up for a lack of speed and take the ball so early). behind the power, she was an extraordinary match player.
Spirit: Seles by a whisker

tennisjunky
Apr 22nd, 2004, 08:15 AM
Serve- Steffi
Return of serve- Monica
Groundstrokes- Tie
footwork/speed- Steffi
Defensive play- Steffi (her quicknes and having one hand for the both shots helps her get to more balls which helps in her defensive play)
Offensive play- Monica (she never lets up it's a constant barage of assaults all throughout)
dertermination/intensity- Monica (In pressure points Monica is more fearless)
strategy- Steffi (not that either one was really great in this department but since Steffi had more options with her backhand and setting up shots for her forehand with that shot she naturally would need to stratagise more)

Factoring in:
Surface - Steffi (She's just as good on clay as she is on grass, her game is better suited for all surfaces moreso than Monicas is). She has wins over Monica on every surface whereas Monica could only win on clay and rebound ace.

Grass: Steffi leads 2:0
Indoor: Stefi leads 2:0
Hard: Steffi leads 3:2
Clay: Tied 3:3




I still like Monica better she seemed like a nicer person, Steffi always came across icy and cold. Except in her last year thats the only time I started to like her. But I still thinks Steffi's a better player than Monica.

Mr_Molik
Apr 22nd, 2004, 08:25 AM
Serve: Graf
Net game/Volley: Graf
Drive volley: Seles
Overhead: Graf
Forehand: Graf
backhand: Seles
Drop shot: Graf
Lob: Graf
Passing shots: Seles

Body/Athleticism: Graf
Brain/Anticipation: Graf
Spirit: Graf

Dennis
Apr 22nd, 2004, 01:03 PM
And before some idiot Graf fan saids that Steffi was better then Monica before the stabbing (6-4), remember that 3 of those wins were in 1989 when Monica was 15 and still not a complete player AND Monica had a 3-1 record in grandslam finals against Steffi which is the ultimate detail that proves who was no.1 and who was no.2. Monica in 1990-1993 was 4-3 against Steffi overall and 3-1 in grandslam finals. ENOUGH SAID. Everything that happened after the stabbing is not part of real talent, but it's based on a crime that helped one career and destroyed another, thanks to a KNIFE.

CASE CLOSED.
WELL SAID !!!

schris
Apr 22nd, 2004, 03:32 PM
Overhead: Graf
it` makes me smile :lol: :devil:

irma
Apr 22nd, 2004, 03:43 PM
it` makes me smile :lol: :devil:schris, don't make fun of Steffi's overhead :mad: ;)


anyway Steffi :worship:

hingis-seles
Apr 22nd, 2004, 05:24 PM
HELLO aren't we forgetting the biggest victim ???? :smash: ;)

<--------------------------------------- ROBBED :mad:

Never mind Steffi :hearts: and Monica :hearts:, you can have the slams ... but the named rose and line of international perfumes stay where they are :armed:.
Oops. My bad. :o

Yep. Poor Steffi and Monica. Stuck with all those slams while more talented players have roses and lines of international perfumes named after them. :devil: