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TeeRexx
Apr 19th, 2004, 03:32 AM
From the APR-18 FCC post match interview:
===========================

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040418/capt.chtx10704182211.family_circle_cup_chtx107.jpg
VENUS WILLIAMS: Everybody has been so wonderful. Everyone has been such a huge fan. I've never played in front of such a crowd that was so supportive of me.



Q. Venus, what are the crowds usually like, and what's the support usually like at other places you go?



VENUS WILLIAMS: A lot of times I can be playing somewhere and it's right in the United States, and I can be playing someone who I don't even know how to pronounce her name, and you know, the crowd is very much rooting for the other player :fiery: , so for me it's very unusual :confused: to come to a place and really everyone is just showing a lot of support.



Q. Do you think part of that might be because they want to see a longer match or --



VENUS WILLIAMS: I don't know.



Q. -- maybe want to see a three-set match?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I have no idea.
==============================

How sad :sad: that VENUS and other minorties still face racial bias by a good number of the other citizens in the U.S.:fiery:

Oh well, at least she is happy and successful and time may make things better regarding this issue.

Congrats to VENUS! :bounce:

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 03:53 AM
How smart of Venus to duck the question as to 'why'. She gains nothing by answering that question, except hostility. If they want the opinion of a Williams,let them ask Orecene Pryce. I'm sure she'll give them an earful.

LeonHart
Apr 19th, 2004, 03:59 AM
again the race card is brought up :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:22 AM
again the race card is brought up :rolleyes:
And again it's invalidated by someone with no clue. :rolleyes:

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:55 AM
again the race card is brought up :rolleyes:
Wow, you mean there's actual racial bias in the United States? I had no idea. VENUS certainly never said anything about that in the interview. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 05:13 AM
Why can't we just be estatic that Vee got a standing ovation and say look this is how civilized people behave? :confused:

It's a happy day. Sorry it's a happy Week. ;) Venus is happy. Let's be happy. Why initiate negativity when there are so many willing to do it for you?

She was appreciative of the crowd. I'm glad she noticed how special she was treated. She voiced her appreciation and why she found it special. We will never ever know the true motives of man or convince teenagers of anything so why try? Whether the Williamsx2 treatment is 100% racially motivated or 2% racially motivated isn't the main issue for us. It's the fact that we feel they aren't treated well by their home country for whatever reason, no? I mean if they got the same treatment because people don't like tennis players with middle names of Ebone would we really be any happier with her treatment? ;)

Venus doesn't bring up race cause she knows she doesn't have to. It's not up to her to decide what evil lurks in people's heart now is it? She leaves that up to up to each individual to decide on their own. Everyone knows they're still racists in the world.. hell the white guy sitting next to me actually used the phrase those "ugly chinese" girls...speaking about a doubles team of two Asian girls and I don't think either one of them was Chinese (actually one of them was probably Janet Lee? :hehehe: ) but lets see if anyone thinks that statement wasn't racist or have a justification for it?

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 05:36 AM
Why can't we just be estatic that Vee got a standing ovation and say look this is how civilized people behave? :confused:

It's a happy day. Sorry it's a happy Week. ;) Venus is happy. Let's be happy. Why initiate negativity when there are so many willing to do it for you?

She was appreciative of the crowd. I'm glad she noticed how special she was treated. She voiced her appreciation and why she found it special. We will never ever know the true motives of man or convince teenagers of anything so why try? Whether the Williamsx2 treatment is 100% racially motivated or 2% racially motivated isn't the main issue for us. It's the fact that we feel they aren't treated well by their home country for whatever reason, no? I mean if they got the same treatment because people don't like tennis players with middle names of Ebone would we really be any happier with her treatment? ;)

Venus doesn't bring up race cause she knows she doesn't have to. It's not up to her to decide what evil lurks in people's heart now is it? She leaves that up to up to each individual to decide on their own. Everyone knows they're still racists in the world.. hell the white guy sitting next to me actually used the phrase those "ugly chinese" girls...speaking about a doubles team of two Asian girls and I don't think either one of them was Chinese (actually one of them was probably Janet Lee? :hehehe: ) but lets see if anyone thinks that statement wasn't racist or have a justification for it?
Great post :worship:
...and YES that was a very racist statement. :(

TeeRexx
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Maybe, in the future, other U.S. venues will emulate the Charleston fans.

Dr.Phil
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:10 PM
Great to see Venus getting Support. Expect a VERY PRO VENUS crowd at the NEXT ALL Williams USopen GS final! (If one does happen).

servenrichie
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:11 PM
Maybe, in the future, other U.S. venues will emulate the Charleston fans.Yea Tee, maybe when you guys have mustered enough courage to send George Bush where he belongs:lol:


...under his momma`s kitchen table:tape: :lol:

lizchris
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:14 PM
Maybe, in the future, other U.S. venues will emulate the Charleston fans.
I wouldn't hold my breath.

harloo
Apr 19th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Wow, Charleston has some great fans.

Rocketta great post, I would rep u but I think I have to spread the love first.;) :kiss:

TeeRexx
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:06 PM
Apparently VENUS thought very carefully about her answer and subsequent responses, therefore, some of you should reread her answer and re-evaluate what she meant by her statement.

Until some of you don black skin, grow up in Compton or Watts, are stopped for no reason by the police, are pressured to go to substandard secondary schools and experience bias in higher education and the corporate environment and society in general, then you should perhaps, give a further in depth research on this topic to help you to comprehend the response made by VENUS.

bandabou
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:14 PM
Guess what?! They don´t need it....it doesn´t matter if the crowd is pro or against them, they still are gonna wipe ass!!!!

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:25 PM
Apparently VENUS thought very carefully about her answer and subsequent responses, therefore, some of you should reread her answer and re-evaluate what she meant by her statement.

Until some of you don black skin, grow up in Compton or Watts, are stopped for no reason by the police, are pressured to go to substandard secondary schools and experience bias in higher education and the corporate environment and society in general, then you should perhaps, give a further in depth research on this topic to help you to comprehend the response made by VENUS.
:worship: :worship: :worship:

faboozadoo15
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:32 PM
i really like that venus appreciates that she had a lot of support, but why does race have to be brought into this?
when she was a dominant force, who would root for her BUT her fans? casual fans look at this as her comeback, and everyone loves a good comeback. that's why she will have new support now. it has nothing to do with race and i question if it ever did.
when monica seles was the dominant force in tennis, she NEVER had a crowd behind her... same with venus and serena (unless they were playing at the us open).

why is cheering for someone else "hatred"? unless it's negative, i take from that that people DO want to see a longer match or maybe they do want to see an upset. it's like that for all the top players. have you watched henin lately? i can't remember the last time i saw a crowd behing her since the french open last year. maybe wimbledon against serena maybe? but you would have to go back that far...

calabar
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Until some of you don black skin, grow up in Compton or Watts, are stopped for no reason by the police, are pressured to go to substandard secondary schools and experience bias in higher education and the corporate environment and society in general, then you should perhaps, give a further in depth research on this topic to help you to comprehend the response made by VENUS.
DITTO!

I am constantly amazed at white folks telling us black folks how to deal (or not deal) with race issues. Like they have any clue what it is like to be one of us.

faste5683
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:38 PM
Maybe, in the future, other U.S. venues will emulate the Charleston fans.

What's interesting (for several reasons) is that a southern tournament, held in a state which flies a "Confederate" battle flag, (correct me, Rocketta, if I'm wrong), attracted local fans who didn't have a problem rooting for Venus. Kind of makes you think a bit, don't it?

:wavey:

faboozadoo15
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:43 PM
i really have to stretch myself to think of negative crowds against venus or serena.
indian wells, sure, it was very ugly. scottsdale wasn't very nice, definitely crowd was in favor of whoever they (venus and serena), and maybe miami wasn't very hosptiable to them, but they have won it soooo many times.

anyway, i've not noticed any hostility in the cali tournaments, matter of fact, venus had almost as many supporters as monica at the YEC 02 and at the acura in 01... that's a lot of fans. and nyc supporters almost always back them warmly.

it seems like a few isolated events, toppled with the fact that shes been the top player at most events she has played...

think of monica seles. i don't think (literally) she ever had a crowd behind her until she was stabbed. look at wimbledon, look at france, look at GERMANY!

apoet29
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:44 PM
Venus handled the question very well. What bothers me is twofold. First, that many people swear that racism isn't a factor in why the sisters are criticized. I suppose it is because of the Chanda litmus test. Rubin isn't criticized therefore racism isn't a problem in tennis. While I love Chanda, she has never been a big threat to the establishment and the top contenders of the tour. Venus and Serena have been that threat since day one, and since tennis has always been an elitist white sport, I will never believe that all criticism is based on a dislike of their style of play, etc.

Second, I am also disturbed that Venus is so aware of why people dislike her. While she skirted the issue quite well, it has to hurt in some way knowing that others dislike you because of your race. How ironic then, that Venus finds her best audience in a while in South Carolina? A state not necessarily known for racial harmony.

Kart
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:52 PM
Why can't we just be estatic that Vee got a standing ovation and say look this is how civilized people behave? :confused:

It's a happy day. Sorry it's a happy Week. ;) Venus is happy. Let's be happy. Why initiate negativity when there are so many willing to do it for you?

She was appreciative of the crowd. I'm glad she noticed how special she was treated. She voiced her appreciation and why she found it special. We will never ever know the true motives of man or convince teenagers of anything so why try? Whether the Williamsx2 treatment is 100% racially motivated or 2% racially motivated isn't the main issue for us. It's the fact that we feel they aren't treated well by their home country for whatever reason, no? I mean if they got the same treatment because people don't like tennis players with middle names of Ebone would we really be any happier with her treatment? ;)

Venus doesn't bring up race cause she knows she doesn't have to. It's not up to her to decide what evil lurks in people's heart now is it? She leaves that up to up to each individual to decide on their own. Everyone knows they're still racists in the world.. hell the white guy sitting next to me actually used the phrase those "ugly chinese" girls...speaking about a doubles team of two Asian girls and I don't think either one of them was Chinese (actually one of them was probably Janet Lee? :hehehe: ) but lets see if anyone thinks that statement wasn't racist or have a justification for it?
That's the best post I've read all day :yeah:.

I'm glad Venus finally experienced a crowd that supported her rather than missing out on all of us who cheer her on the TV. She certainly deserves it :hearts: :worship:.

Good for her for the way she answered the questions - if you don't get baited, you don't get misquoted.

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:07 PM
Venus handled the question very well. What bothers me is twofold. First, that many people swear that racism isn't a factor in why the sisters are criticized. I suppose it is because of the Chanda litmus test. Rubin isn't criticized therefore racism isn't a problem in tennis. While I love Chanda, she has never been a big threat to the establishment and the top contenders of the tour. Venus and Serena have been that threat since day one, and since tennis has always been an elitist white sport, I will never believe that all criticism is based on a dislike of their style of play, etc.

Second, I am also disturbed that Venus is so aware of why people dislike her. While she skirted the issue quite well, it has to hurt in some way knowing that others dislike you because of your race. How ironic then, that Venus finds her best audience in a while in South Carolina? A state not necessarily known for racial harmony.
Ironic, huh? Guess I've given you too many good reps apoet, so here ya go. This is the best I can do for now. Great post. :worship: :worship: :worship:

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:09 PM
It's not surprising that a lot of support would come from SC. One there were a lot of black people there. SC has a lot of black people so the % in the crowd is maybe higher than a normal crowd.

Two, Southerns are the most patriotic people in this country. Venus is American. That's why I said if she was playing against another American the crowd probably would've been split down the middle.

Thirdly, black and white people live, I think a whole lot closer than in other areas of the country and it wouldn't surprise me if race relations aren't better in the south than any other places in the country. I think the small town nature of the south is the cause of this. Don't get me wrong the south has it institutional racism issues that are set in stone in some instances. My hometown is small but it is very close to being 50/50. The demographics are different in the south.

Black people are a major part of the south. These aren't white people who aren't around black people on an everyday basis like maybe in other areas... The subject isn't taboo. They can see Venus and Serena as people that they know and love and they can relate to them on that level eventhough they aren't the same race. This is why the racist guy could root for Venus but call the Asian girls, the ugly chinese girls...see he knows black people lived with them his whole life but he hasn't interacted with many Asian people so then he prejudges them and roots against them!

The tip of Florida doesn't count as the south though...;)

bandabou
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:09 PM
i really have to stretch myself to think of negative crowds against venus or serena.
indian wells, sure, it was very ugly. scottsdale wasn't very nice, definitely crowd was in favor of whoever they (venus and serena), and maybe miami wasn't very hosptiable to them, but they have won it soooo many times.

anyway, i've not noticed any hostility in the cali tournaments, matter of fact, venus had almost as many supporters as monica at the YEC 02 and at the acura in 01... that's a lot of fans. and nyc supporters almost always back them warmly.

it seems like a few isolated events, toppled with the fact that shes been the top player at most events she has played...

think of monica seles. i don't think (literally) she ever had a crowd behind her until she was stabbed. look at wimbledon, look at france, look at GERMANY!

Thing is those few you note weren´t just uhum, uhum...they were the MOST DISGUSTING events EVER( safe the stabbing of course). Booing a HOME-country player playing a foreigner for no obvious reason?! Don´t even bother coming up with the match-fixing blah blah. Then the U.S. open a two-time defending champion and U.S.-citizen and the crowd supports a FRENCH player over the defending champion?! Can you imagine this happening to a Lindsay no matter how dominating she would have been?1

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:13 PM
That's the best post I've read all day :yeah:.

I'm glad Venus finally experienced a crowd that supported her rather than missing out on all of us who cheer her on the TV. She certainly deserves it :hearts: :worship:.

Good for her for the way she answered the questions - if you don't get baited, you don't get misquoted.
Well I hope Venus and Serena never tackle these questions until after they retire. After they retire I hope they let it rip.....;)

First anything they say now will be blown up and taken out of context and used against them but after they retire they can say what they want and go into seclusion and let others ponder it. Also, I think they do have a lot of hurt built up over this and I do think they need to get it off their chest one day to truly be happy with their tennis careers when it's over but that's just my opinion. ;)

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:15 PM
What's interesting (for several reasons) is that a southern tournament, held in a state which flies a "Confederate" battle flag, (correct me, Rocketta, if I'm wrong), attracted local fans who didn't have a problem rooting for Venus. Kind of makes you think a bit, don't it?

:wavey:
I don't know but I think SC took down their flag? :confused:

but God knows I saw enough on the cars there to make up for it. ;)

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Here's why I love the south....a true redneck racist wouldn't waste his time watching a black girl do anything well....:wavey:

They were all busy watching the confederate soldiers from Hunley Submarine being buried. :hehehe:

:lol: I shouldn't say that. My co-worker and her husband were down there as well for the Hunley burial and they don't have a predjudice bone in there bodies. ;)

faste5683
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:37 PM
I don't know but I think SC took down their flag? :confused:

but God knows I saw enough on the cars there to make up for it. ;)

:eek:

I know you're not kidding, either.

Thank's Rocketta!

:wavey:

Madhuri
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:55 PM
Venus is a very intelligent woman. I'm sure she realizes in this era there has been a backlash against politcal correctness to the point where someone accused of racism is more likely to get sympathy than be rebuked. Too bad Alex Stevenson and Omarosa never got the memo. As many on this board have expressed, whites are "tired" of the "race card" (i.e. being called on or informed about racially insensitive incidents.) Sympathy and consolation of the accused are now kneejerk reactions to such incidents. Venus is smart enough to know that she would only bring sympathy and support for the accused if she makes light of their motivations. Better to keep the focus on her own acclaim and not bring any wrath upon herself--she certainly would not get sympathy.

faboozadoo15
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:02 PM
Thing is those few you note weren´t just uhum, uhum...they were the MOST DISGUSTING events EVER( safe the stabbing of course).
i don't know what you're talking about/referring to in this part of you post.
but you're right, it wouldn't happen to lindsay. lindsay has always been popular everywhere. maybe because shes pretty professional, not overly boastful, and is successful in a way that relates to fans (meaning she doesn't look like a super athlete).

SerialKiller#69
Apr 20th, 2004, 12:33 AM
'Some American crowds' includes white and black. so the issue about 'racism' that some people are desperately trying to inject here is weak.

The way I see it is it's a cycle.There are different match ups that will elicit favoritism on a player. In Venus' case, I'm not surprised why people are rooting for her. I wouldn't be surprised if Venus will be heavily supported in US Open even against Justine or Kim. You see, it's very subjective in my opinion. And it's not always a case of 'racism' blah blah.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 12:45 AM
i don't know what you're talking about/referring to in this part of you post.
but you're right, it wouldn't happen to lindsay. lindsay has always been popular everywhere. maybe because shes pretty professional, not overly boastful, and is successful in a way that relates to fans (meaning she doesn't look like a super athlete).
As opposed to who? :confused:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 12:46 AM
'Some American crowds' includes white and black. so the issue about 'racism' that some people are desperately trying to inject here is weak.

The way I see it is it's a cycle.There are different match ups that will elicit favoritism on a player. In Venus' case, I'm not surprised why people are rooting for her. I wouldn't be surprised if Venus will be heavily supported in US Open even against Justine or Kim. You see, it's very subjective in my opinion. And it's not always a case of 'racism' blah blah.
:yawn:

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 12:57 AM
As opposed to who? :confused:
as opposed to no one. those qualities are rare in any top player.

and btw, thanks for the bad rep based on assumption. and even if it was about the sisters, it's still not an insult. to some people, being boastful and then winning shows confidence, and being a super athlete sure isn't a "diss" as you would call it. so i really don't get you here...

TeeRexx
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:03 AM
Venus is a very intelligent woman. I'm sure she realizes in this era there has been a backlash against politcal correctness to the point where someone accused of racism is more likely to get sympathy than be rebuked. Too bad Alex Stevenson and Omarosa never got the memo. As many on this board have expressed, whites are "tired" of the "race card" (i.e. being called on or informed about racially insensitive incidents.) Sympathy and consolation of the accused are now kneejerk reactions to such incidents. Venus is smart enough to know that she would only bring sympathy and support for the accused if she makes light of their motivations. Better to keep the focus on her own acclaim and not bring any wrath upon herself--she certainly would not get sympathy.
An excellent :worship: post and one of the better post in this thread .. after one of mine, of course.:eek: :lol:

SerialKiller#69
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:03 AM
:yawn:What an insightful comment! I'm so flattered to be replied with such depth and intelligence.:hearts:

must have striked a nerve eh.ciao!:yawn:

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:03 AM
people always root for Chanda Rubin and she's black. So could it be that they don't root as much for Venus because well... they simply don't like her as much? :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:09 AM
as opposed to no one. those qualities are rare in any top player.

and btw, thanks for the bad rep based on assumption. and even if it was about the sisters, it's still not an insult. to some people, being boastful and then winning shows confidence, and being a super athlete sure isn't a "diss" as you would call it. so i really don't get you here...
:lol: You're welcome for the bad rep. It is well deserved. You should applaud yourself. Please don't insult my intelligence by trying to assert that it wasn't about the Williams' sisters, and it was an insult. A sly one, but one nonetheless. Sounds like you're backpeddaling here. :rolleyes:

Pesonally I think the sisters are very professional, and btw who looks like a super athlete on the tour other than Serena? And, why would that not make an athlete popular. Your whole statement makes no sense, because it wasn't meant to be anything other than an insult. :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:10 AM
What an insightful comment! I'm so flattered to be replied with such depth and intelligence.:hearts:

must have striked a nerve eh.ciao!:yawn:
I'm so thrilled. I live my life to flatter you. :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:11 AM
people always root for Chanda Rubin and she's black. So could it be that they don't root as much for Venus because well... they simply don't like her as much? :rolleyes:
Why don't you answer this...what is the difference between Chanda and Venus?

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:17 AM
That was a smart retort by Venus. She pretty much let the world know the deal without getting raunchy about it like Barry Bonds (baseball) or Micheal Irving(football). (although I like there approach better). However, in this Venue, Venus played her cards right and let her parents, et. al. do the talking for them.

Hell, white people can't stand black people that are EVERYTHING black. They want you to want them and be like them and when your rebuff them, they can't take it.

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:31 AM
:lol: You're welcome for the bad rep. It is well deserved. You should applaud yourself. Please don't insult my intelligence by trying to assert that it wasn't about the Williams' sisters, and it was an insult. A sly one, but one nonetheless. Sounds like you're backpeddaling here. :rolleyes:

Pesonally I think the sisters are very professional, and btw who looks like a super athlete on the tour other than Serena? And, why would that not make an athlete popular. Your whole statement makes no sense, because it wasn't meant to be anything other than an insult. :rolleyes:

oh don't worry. taking a bad rep from a poster like you is usually a compliment because it is usually the result of you having no clue as to how to respond to something i have said and need to give a "bad rep" to someone with well over 30000 rep pts.

i love venus, but she does/ has done some unprofessional things in her career, and i won't even get into serena. some of the things haven't exactly endeared them to some fans.

people like to cheer for someone like themself when they watch tennis. lindsay davenport is perfect for some people and not bc she's white.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:36 AM
^^^^^^^^^

Even the person in your signature has abandoned you. Give up already.

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:40 AM
abandoned me? i have no personal connection to her, yet she's given me more than any of you may ever get with other players as you choose as your favorites.

give up on what?

and i love the arrows and how you haven't learned yet how to "quote" just yet. saving that for next year?

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:41 AM
Why don't you answer this...what is the difference between Chanda and Venus?

Well Chanda is nicer and more classy. But there's also the factor that Venus has always been a top player and people tend to root for the underdog (which in Venus' case is 99% of her opponents). So those 2 combinations make people root a lot for Chanda and less for Venus. It has nothing to do with color.

Infiniti2001
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:43 AM
i love venus, but she does/ has done some unprofessional things in her career,
:rolleyes: VENUS? Like WHAT?What on earth has she ever done that was "unprofessional"?What has she done in her whole career that could compare to a single GAME of the Conchi-Patty match? :rolleyes: :banghead: :shrug:


people like to cheer for someone like themself when they watch tennis. lindsay davenport is perfect for some people and not bc she's white.

Like themself? You mean like a 6'2" woman from California? :rolleyes: :tape:

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:45 AM
It has nothing to do with color.

Girl Please. What's with your affectation with BLACK PEOPLE? That is what you need to ask yourself.

Everything that you post is in regards to some person of COLOR. Yes we dominate football and basketball and now we want total domination of Tennis and golf too.

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:47 AM
:rolleyes: VENUS? Like WHAT?What on earth has she ever done that was "unprofessional"?What has she done in her whole career that could compare to a single GAME of the Conchi-Patty match? :rolleyes: :banghead: :shrug:




Like themself? You mean like a 6'2" woman from California? :rolleyes: :tape:
being professional doesn't mean being "more professional than patty schnyder." i didn't make that comparison, and i don't know why you felt the need to :confused: i definitely think patty is VERY unprofessional, way more than v. the whole indian wells episode WAS very unprofessional, and even though i feel she was treated unfairly, that really stands out.

i'll just say it, lindsay seems like the nicest most down to earth gal on the planet, and she isn't very pretty and hasn't always been in the best of shape. believe it or not, but that endears you to people.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:49 AM
oh don't worry. taking a bad rep from a poster like you is usually a compliment because it is usually the result of you having no clue as to how to respond to something i have said and need to give a "bad rep" to someone with well over 30000 rep pts. .
Then why feel the need to cry about it in a post. Take it and move on.
But, it shows me your mentality when you insinuate that having "well over 30,000" insulates you from getting a bad rep. :rolleyes:

BTW, unless you can't read, I've been responding to you since you posted the insult.

i love venus, but she does/ has done some unprofessional things in her career, and i won't even get into serena. some of the things haven't exactly endeared them to some fans.

Please name the unprofessional things she has done and while you're at it, do so for Serena. Otherwise, your statement is bullcrap. Back up your statement. Telling me she's done some things without elaborating is like pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.

people like to cheer for someone like themself when they watch tennis. lindsay davenport is perfect for some people and not bc she's white.
You are exactly correct in your first sentence. Let me ask you this, what race is the majority of Americans that watch tennis? Lindsay may be perfect for some people, which encompasses a lot of factors, including that she is white. You can't make a blanket statement that it's not because she's white because you don't know that to be a fact. It may not be the only reason some people have, but it cannot be excluded as the only reason either.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:49 AM
Girl Please. What's with your affectation with BLACK PEOPLE? That is what you need to ask yourself.

Everything that you post is in regards to some person of COLOR. Yes we dominate football and basketball and now we want total domination of Tennis and golf too.

1) I'm not a girl

2) I post a lot about Justine, Monica, etc. do some research.

3) YOU are the one who's dividing people into colors by putting "we blacks will dominate the sports", that's racism. None of my post are racists. NONE.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:52 AM
1) I'm not a girl


Well you act like a Biatch!

You post like a PMSing woman.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:54 AM
Well you act like a Biatch!

You post like a PMSing woman.

Do everyone a favor and punch yourself in the face.

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:54 AM
Well you act like a Biatch!

You post like a PMSing woman.
and you post like an impotent old man, but nobody's said anything yet :eek: :tape:

:lol: :haha:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:56 AM
Well Chanda is nicer and more classy. But there's also the factor that Venus has always been a top player and people tend to root for the underdog (which in Venus' case is 99% of her opponents). So those 2 combinations make people root a lot for Chanda and less for Venus. It has nothing to do with color.
How do you know Chanda is nicer? Do you know her personally? Class is pretty subjective. I think Venus has just as much class as Chanda. You are correct in saying that Venus has always been a top player...and a threat to the establishment and Chanda has not. She basically "stays in her place". No offense to Chanda on this, but I'm just expressing the mentality about it for some. It may sometimes have to do with the fact that some people tend to root for the underdog, but again, you cannot completely rule out that it has something to do with color or race, because you don't know that to be a fact.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:56 AM
faboozadoo15, please rep me some positive points ;)

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:00 AM
being professional doesn't mean being "more professional than patty schnyder." i didn't make that comparison, and i don't know why you felt the need to :confused: i definitely think patty is VERY unprofessional, way more than v. the whole indian wells episode WAS very unprofessional, and even though i feel she was treated unfairly, that really stands out.

i'll just say it, lindsay seems like the nicest most down to earth gal on the planet, and she isn't very pretty and hasn't always been in the best of shape. believe it or not, but that endears you to people.
:lol: :lol: :lol: How was Indian Wells unprofessional??!! Should she have played injured, or are you buying into the "match fixing" phenomenon? :hehehe:

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:00 AM
How do you know Chanda is nicer? Do you know her personally? Class is pretty subjective. I think Venus has just as much class as Chanda. You are correct in saying that Venus has always been a top player...and a threat to the establishment and Chanda has not. She basically "stays in her place". No offense to Chanda on this, but I'm just expressing the mentality about it for some. It may sometimes have to do with the fact that some people tend to root for the underdog, but again, you cannot completely rule out that it has something to do with color or race, because you don't know that to be a fact.

When Monica was no.1, people didn't cheer for her. The same for most top players. Heck, Hingis got booed several times on court like in Paris, even Monica got booed when she lost 6-0, 6-0 because of injury and they are both white, but when they booed the Williams, everyone started blaming racism. Get a clue.

People like Oprah Winfrey, Tiger Woods, Whitney Houston, Bill Cosby, Michael Jordan among thousands of successful black people are cheered all over the world, just because Venus isn't as cheered as much doesn't mean that it's because of racism but rather because people connect less with her. Black celebrities in general are pretty popular.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:01 AM
and you post like an impotent old man, but nobody's said anything yet :eek: :tape:

:lol: :haha:

Aren't you the dummy that flunked out? I recall you from the other board crying about your bad grades and repeating classes.

and as for impotence, kid you have no Ideal the amount of azz I get. If you found out you'd wish you had these talents - which are god given, I'm 100% certain they are not in your genes.

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:02 AM
im not buying into the match fixing crap, but pulling out that close to when you're about to go on when the stadium is already filling up... i've not seen that before or since... especially since it was bout to be televised too, ouch.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:04 AM
im not buying into the match fixing crap, but pulling out that close to when you're about to go on when the stadium is already filling up... i've not seen that before or since... especially since it was bout to be televised too, ouch.
So, it's unprofessional to decide at the last minute that you don't feel that you are physically able to play. It would have been more professional in your opinion that either she go on and play or pull out earlier. Wasn't her match the day before? Also, don't people buy tickets in advance of the tournament? If that's the case, if she had pulled out earlier, what difference would it have made. Ergo, we are back to she should have played injured. :rolleyes: Come on now.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:05 AM
just because Venus isn't as cheered as much doesn't mean that it's because of racism but rather because people connect less with her.

That is because Venus and Serena whipp white girls azz's for a living. Those other celebrities don't.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:05 AM
That is because Venus and Serena whipp white girls azz's for a living. Those other celebrities don't.

Excuse me, but Oprah dominated tv, Whitney dominated music, Jordan dominated basketball, Tiger dominated golf, they also whipped some ass. Go do some research.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:07 AM
When Monica was no.1, people didn't cheer for her. The same for most top players. Heck, Hingis got booed several times on court like in Paris, even Monica got booed when she lost 6-0, 6-0 because of injury and they are both white, but when they booed the Williams, everyone started blaming racism. Get a clue.

People like Oprah Winfrey, Tiger Woods, Whitney Houston, Bill Cosby, Michael Jordan among thousands of successful black people are cheered all over the world, just because Venus isn't as cheered as much doesn't mean that it's because of racism but rather because people connect less with her. Black celebrities in general are pretty popular.
Are you stupid, or you just don't know any better? Do you think you can respond to my post without side-stepping the issues I brought up? You're the one who needs to get a clue.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:08 AM
Are you stupid, or you just don't know any better? Do you think you can respond to my post without side-stepping the issues I brought up? You're the one who needs to get a clue.

You know that I'm right and you have nothing to say.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:08 AM
Excuse me, but Oprah dominated tv, Whitney dominated music, Jordan dominated basketball, they also whipped some ass. Go do some research.

But they don't scream and grunt while they are doing it!

Neither do they Bomb an ACE in the face of their helpless opponent.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:08 AM
That is because Venus and Serena whipp white girls azz's for a living. Those other celebrities don't.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:09 AM
Excuse me, but Oprah dominated tv, Whitney dominated music, Jordan dominated basketball, Tiger dominated golf, they also whipped some ass. Go do some research.
interesting point. even more interesting that they are all also well liked by the masses (well not really whitney now, but she WAS)

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:09 AM
Excuse me, but Oprah dominated tv, Whitney dominated music, ... Go do some research.:cuckoo:

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:10 AM
But they don't scream and grunt while they are doing it!

Neither do they Bomb an ACE in the face of their helpless opponent.
michael jordan jumped over guys with his tongue haning out of his mouth and he may be the most popular athlete of all time

what the hell does grunting have to do with it?

and why do u need to add stuff now? hmm maybe bc you were wrong, as always...

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:11 AM
You know that I'm right and you have nothing to say.
The only reason I have nothing to say is because you side-stepped the issue with some bullshit and I, quite frankly, don't know how to respond to that moronic crap. :confused:

Not because you're right. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

faboozadoo15
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:12 AM
So, it's unprofessional to decide at the last minute that you don't feel that you are physically able to play. It would have been more professional in your opinion that either she go on and play or pull out earlier. Wasn't her match the day before? Also, don't people buy tickets in advance of the tournament? If that's the case, if she had pulled out earlier, what difference would it have made. Ergo, we are back to she should have played injured. :rolleyes: Come on now.
and she just realized it a few minutes before stepping out on court. the tv telecast had already begun when she pulled out for crying out loud.

she should have pulled out as soon as she knew she wouldn't be able to play or she should have played a game or something, i don't know. just anything BUT what went down...

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:12 AM
Why edit the Tiger Woods dominated white people's golf? He was popular and people cheered him like crazy. Let's face it, the Williams do NOT have a good personality so people don't like them as much. They came as arrogant, especially their father. And even to this day, Serena rarely gives credits to her opponents. But I think the main reason why they aren't as popular as Tiger is because of how their father acted like an idiot with no respect for most of the time. If he was classy, people would have liked them more.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:13 AM
i don't know. just anything BUT what went down...
That's what I thought, you don't know. :lol: :lol:

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:13 AM
I have concluded it is useless to argue with these little silly girls/boys. I'm off to the hip-hop sites where they truly get down.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:13 AM
Why edit the Tiger Woods dominated white people's golf? He was popular and people cheered him like crazy. Let's face it, the Williams do NOT have a good personality so people don't like them as much. They came as arrogant, especially their father. And even to this day, Serena rarely gives credits to her opponents. But I think the main reason why they aren't as popular as Tiger is because of how their father acted like an idiot with no respect for most of the time. If he was classy, people would have liked them more.
Same bullshit, different day. It's useless. Good night. :wavey:

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:23 AM
Excuse me, but Oprah dominated tv, Whitney dominated music, Jordan dominated basketball, Tiger dominated golf, they also whipped some ass. Go do some research.
Each one of these has gone WAY out of their way to please white people, believe that. They had to go through white people to get their positions of power and respect.

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:26 AM
Why edit the Tiger Woods dominated white people's golf? He was popular and people cheered him like crazy. Let's face it, the Williams do NOT have a good personality so people don't like them as much. They came as arrogant, especially their father. And even to this day, Serena rarely gives credits to her opponents. But I think the main reason why they aren't as popular as Tiger is because of how their father acted like an idiot with no respect for most of the time. If he was classy, people would have liked them more.
Plenty of arrogant white people in sports, but they aren't hated, they are loved even more!!

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:32 AM
Plenty of arrogant white people in sports, but they aren't hated, they are loved even more!!

Please give examples. Heck, Patty was arrogant last week but she got booed. Jeff Tarrango was arrogant but he got booed. And the list goes on... Richard Williams was arrogant and to a lesser extent also Venus & Serena early on, so don't expect something different and don't blame something else other then their arrogance. Whoever is arrogant (black or white) are not cheered as much, and whoever is not arrogant (black or white) are loved. Yeah there are exceptions but that goes for both sides. Mike Tyson was always arrogant, but people cheer him.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:35 AM
Anyways, I have a feeling that even iwhen black people might be presidents of white dominated countries, black people will still blame racism on anything that goes wrong. Yeah racism exists, but it's NOT the cause of every problem. And I don't blame Venus for thinking that she's victim of racism because frankly she was raised by a racist: Richard Williams.

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:42 AM
Please give examples. Heck, Patty was arrogant last week but she got booed. Jeff Tarrango was arrogant but he got booed. And the list goes on... Richard Williams was arrogant and to a lesser extent also Venus & Serena early on, so don't expect something different and don't blame something else other then their arrogance. Whoever is arrogant (black or white) are not cheered as much, and whoever is not arrogant (black or white) are loved. Yeah there are exceptions but that goes for both sides. Mike Tyson was always arrogant, but people cheer him.
Well, Hingis was more arrogant than the sisters could EVER dream of being, bus everyone seemed to love her and some fans on this board can't even get over her retirement. Patty wasn't arrogant, she was acting an ass. McEnroe was downright crude on the court, but he got cheered for it. Andy Roddick acts like a spoiled brat on the court and gets egged on by the fans, he was terrible at the US Open last year. I could go on to other sports, but there are enough of them in tennis. I can't believe you brought up Mike Tyson. Not to many people care for Mike.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:48 AM
Well, Hingis was more arrogant than the sisters could EVER dream of being, bus everyone seemed to love her and some fans on this board can't even get over her retirement. Patty wasn't arrogant, she was acting an ass. McEnroe was downright crude on the court, but he got cheered for it. Andy Roddick acts like a spoiled brat on the court and gets egged on by the fans, he was terrible at the US Open last year. I could go on to other sports, but there are enough of them in tennis. I can't believe you brought up Mike Tyson. Not to many people care for Mike.

Again, 2 words: Richard Williams.

If Hingis' mother came and started acting like an idiot, bad mouthing people, acting with no class, getting into ridiculous headlines, people wouldn't have liked Hingis that much. Richard Williams gave this bad reputation about Venus & Serena, sure they were also a little arrogant or overconfident, but that's normal. Many teenagers are like that. But believe me, Richard Williams caused them to lose popularity because of how he acted. If he came with CLASS, people would have loved them more.

Btw despite all of that, The Williams sisters remain some of the most cheered and loved people all over the world. They are popular everywhere they go. Sure during matches, people tend to root for their opponents but that's normal. When Monica dominated, people were cheering for her opponents too. That doesn't mean that they aren't loved or popular.

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:48 AM
Anyways, I have a feeling that even iwhen black people might be presidents of white dominated countries, black people will still blame racism on anything that goes wrong. Yeah racism exists, but it's NOT the cause of every problem. And I don't blame Venus for thinking that she's victim of racism because frankly she was raised by a racist: Richard Williams.
The fact that you have to say when a black person MIGHT be a president is very telling. No one thinks racism is the cause of every problem. You seem to think it's causing NO problems anywhere. As for Richard, leave him out of this. If you hate V and S because of their father then you have no real reason to hate them. If you hate Richard then you hate him and him alone.

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:50 AM
Again, 2 words: Richard Williams.

If Hingis' mother came and started acting like an idiot, bad mouthing people, acting with no class, getting into ridiculous headlines, people wouldn't have liked Hingis that much. Richard Williams gave this bad reputation about Venus & Serena, sure they were also a little arrogant or overconfident, but that's normal. Many teenagers are like that. But believe me, Richard Williams caused them to lose popularity because of how he acted. If he came with CLASS, people would have loved them more.

Btw despite all of that, The Williams sisters remain some of the most cheered and loved people all over the world. They are popular everywhere they go. Sure during matches, people tend to root for their opponents but that's normal. When Monica dominated, people were cheering for her opponents too. That doesn't mean that they aren't loved or popular.
Gooo job avoiding all the examples in my post. Hingis' mother didn't have to say anything, Hingis ran her mouth enough for the both of them.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:52 AM
The fact that you have to say when a black person MIGHT be a president is very telling. No one thinks racism is the cause of every problem. You seem to think it's causing NO problems anywhere. As for Richard, leave him out of this. If you hate V and S because of their father then you have no real reason to hate them. If you hate Richard then you hate him and him alone.

The reason I said "might" is because black people represent about 10% of the USA, even less in France or any other big country? So it's rather unlikely that a black person would represent a white dominated country. It's just common sense.

And, it's hard to leave Richard Williams out of this. People formed a negative opinion early on about the whole family because of him.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:53 AM
The only place I remember Hingis saying something bad was the Mauresmo comment. And they definitely put her in her place and she was hated for it. Plus the Paris incident when she was arrogant, she got booed. Otherwise, she might have been a little overconfident but never showed any other disrespect.

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:57 AM
The reason I said "might" is because black people represent about 10% of the USA, even less in France or any other big country? So it's rather unlikely that a black person would represent a white dominated country. It's just common sense.

And, it's hard to leave Richard Williams out of this. People formed a negative opinion early on about the whole family because of him.
You know ya don fucked up right?? Heh, heh, heh, heh. You know ya don fucked up right?? :lol::lol::lol: (Did anyone see Menace II Society?)

Let me ask you, if racism has not much to do with things why is it unlikely that a black person would represent a white dominated country?? :confused: :shrug: :scratch:

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:58 AM
You know ya don fucked up right?? Heh, heh, heh, heh. You know ya don fucked up right?? :lol::lol::lol: (Did anyone see Menace II Society?)

Let me ask you, if racism has not much to do with things why is it unlikely that a black person would represent a white dominated country?? :confused: :shrug: :scratch:

Because based on the ratio of population, there's a 1 out of 10 chance of that happening. That's pretty unlikely. BUT, it might happen.

selesfan1
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:00 AM
Venus always spoke about how wonderful the crowds here in Oklahoma City were and in fact they were out of all places she spoke that the crowd related to her and how they were supportive. It was I don't want to say strange but maybe unexpected to see little rich caucasian girls dressing like Venus and putting beads in tehir hair when she still wore them. It was just cool to see. It really depends on what part of the States you're in. I don't really think people are always against her though but it's not always the crowd favoring the underdog as some say.

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:01 AM
Because based on the ratio of population, there's a 1 out of 10 chance of that happening. That's pretty unlikely. BUT, it might happen.
Why though?? It only takes one black candidate?? Why isn't he likely to be elected??

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:07 AM
Why though?? It only takes one black candidate?? Why isn't he likely to be elected??

Let's take a more exagerated example just to show my point:

If you take China, you put one black candidate and one asian candidate, both decent. Of course the asian candidate would win because of many things like the culture for instance. It's not necessarly the color of skin or that people hate the black person. It's more of "connecting" because of traditions, similarites, etc.

dreamgoddess099
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:18 AM
How ironic then, that Venus finds her best audience in a while in South Carolina? A state not necessarily known for racial harmony.
Exactly, just as Venus is aware of the bias of American crowds towards Williamses compared to other top ranked American players, so is SC of the situation happening in that state right now. The whole pro Venus crowd support act seemed very fake. If white SC really liked Black people so much, then why did they continue to fly that flag of people who faught to keep slavery in the face of all it's black citizens?

dreamgoddess099
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:24 AM
Let me ask you, if racism has not much to do with things why is it unlikely that a black person would represent a white dominated country?? :confused: :shrug: :scratch:
Great point, really says it all right there! :worship:

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:40 AM
Let's take a more exagerated example just to show my point:

If you take China, you put one black candidate and one asian candidate, both decent. Of course the asian candidate would win because of many things like the culture for instance. It's not necessarly the color of skin or that people hate the black person. It's more of "connecting" because of traditions, similarites, etc.
ahh yes!! That explains it. :cuckoo:

dreamgoddess099
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:44 AM
Let's take a more exagerated example just to show my point:

If you take China, you put one black candidate and one asian candidate, both decent. Of course the asian candidate would win because of many things like the culture for instance.First of all, there are many Asian countries and cultures. Just because you are Asian doesn't mean you know the Chinese culture. And just because you are black doesn't mean you can't be Chinese. It's not necessarly the color of skin or that people hate the black person. It's more of "connecting" because of traditions, similarites, etc.Oh really? So what is it that makes the black person black if not the skin color? Are you saying that just becuase you have black skin you can't possibly be Chinese or know the culture? Btw, China is a country and not a race so just being born in the country makes you chinese and just as qualified for the job as any other Chinese person.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:59 AM
The reason I said "might" is because black people represent about 10% of the USA, even less in France or any other big country? So it's rather unlikely that a black person would represent a white dominated country. It's just common sense.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Since when is Africa a small country? I thought it was a continent. Since when is Australia a small country? I thought IT was a continent? :lol: :lol: :lol: fan, get a clue, not all big countries are predominately white. And France is not even as big as Texas, so what the hell are you talking about France??? :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 04:00 AM
The only place I remember Hingis saying something bad was the Mauresmo comment. And they definitely put her in her place and she was hated for it. Plus the Paris incident when she was arrogant, she got booed. Otherwise, she might have been a little overconfident but never showed any other disrespect.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: What planet did you come from?

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 04:59 AM
i don't know what you're talking about/referring to in this part of you post.
but you're right, it wouldn't happen to lindsay. lindsay has always been popular everywhere. maybe because shes pretty professional, not overly boastful, and is successful in a way that relates to fans (meaning she doesn't look like a super athlete).

And so none of that applies to the sisters?! You believe it too, huh?!

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:01 AM
as opposed to no one. those qualities are rare in any top player.

and btw, thanks for the bad rep based on assumption. and even if it was about the sisters, it's still not an insult. to some people, being boastful and then winning shows confidence, and being a super athlete sure isn't a "diss" as you would call it. so i really don't get you here...

But that justifies the booing?! Because they look like super-athletes?!

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:03 AM
oh don't worry. taking a bad rep from a poster like you is usually a compliment because it is usually the result of you having no clue as to how to respond to something i have said and need to give a "bad rep" to someone with well over 30000 rep pts.

i love venus, but she does/ has done some unprofessional things in her career, and i won't even get into serena. some of the things haven't exactly endeared them to some fans.

people like to cheer for someone like themself when they watch tennis. lindsay davenport is perfect for some people and not bc she's white.


Ooh please.....who was the one who said: " I think they fix their matches. At Wimbledon I just had the feeling that Venus was gonna win that match?" Yeah, very professional!

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:10 AM
and she just realized it a few minutes before stepping out on court. the tv telecast had already begun when she pulled out for crying out loud.

she should have pulled out as soon as she knew she wouldn't be able to play or she should have played a game or something, i don't know. just anything BUT what went down...


So you´re still mad at Amelie for pulling out last year at IW?! Because she didn´t pull out a day before either!

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:12 AM
Please give examples. Heck, Patty was arrogant last week but she got booed. Jeff Tarrango was arrogant but he got booed. And the list goes on... Richard Williams was arrogant and to a lesser extent also Venus & Serena early on, so don't expect something different and don't blame something else other then their arrogance. Whoever is arrogant (black or white) are not cheered as much, and whoever is not arrogant (black or white) are loved. Yeah there are exceptions but that goes for both sides. Mike Tyson was always arrogant, but people cheer him.

Uhmm....next time tell that to Lei Clijsters....but look at his daugher: well beloved. BUt of course: white people can do!

TeeRexx
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:14 AM
Exactly, just as Venus is aware of the bias of American crowds towards Williamses compared to other top ranked American players, so is SC of the situation happening in that state right now. The whole pro Venus crowd support act seemed very fake. If white SC really liked Black people so much, then why did they continue to fly that flag of people who faught to keep slavery in the face of all it's black citizens?
Good point, my friend. :)

dreamgoddess099
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:21 AM
faboozadoo15, please rep me some positive points ;)
Begging is so unattractive, especially from someone who is supposed to be so tough. :rolleyes: Where's your pride?

Vass22
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:42 AM
What a load of ..... Why start such a big discussion over NOTHING? The word racial was not in the interview, and it wasn't even between the lines. There's nothing wrong in supporting the other player. I always root for the underdog if he/she isn't playing my fave. Those people who don't support Venus might have Capriati as their favourite, and Venus is her rival.

dreamgoddess099
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:13 AM
Why edit the Tiger Woods dominated white people's golf? He was popular and people cheered him like crazy. Of course they did, he doesn't even consider himself black. Plus, how bad would it have looked on the sport for a brown skinned player making history in a traditionally white sport if they didn't cheer for him? Yeah, golf really accepts blacks, that's why til this day there are clubs that don't accept black members. :rolleyes: Let's face it, the Williams do NOT have a good personality so people don't like them as much. You mean they don't have submissive personalities and cater to whites by being less black therefore less threatening. Venus and Serena came on tour wearing beads in their hair and holding their heads up taking pride in their black heritage. The only thing they were guilty of was being perceived as big strong blacks (or super athletes as someone put it) who scared the shit out of the white tennis establishment who were afraid of blacks being in the sport for fear that their physical prowess would someday dominate the sport. Why do you think sports like tennis and golf are so expensive, it's to keep certain people out. They came as arrogant, especially their father. Only the weak are bothered by those with strength. You have no idea how strong Richard Williams had to be to get his two little black daughters to the top of white tennis without the proper funds to do it. Sure he talked them up and went out of his way to get attention and press. How else was he going to get enough money to pay for both of their training? The man was not rich you know, plus it actually worked. to And even to this day, Serena rarely gives credits to her opponents. Serena always gives credit to her opponent. But I suppose because she is so good, anytime she criticizes herself, people take it as her saying that her opponent only won because she lost. I've heard those words (in some form or another) from the mouths of many players, but never Serena or Venus. But I think the main reason why they aren't as popular as Tiger is because of how their father acted like an idiot with no respect for most of the time. If he was classy, people would have liked them more.Earl Woods once compared his son Tiger to God and that's ok, but Richard Williams can't say my daughters are going to be 1 and 2 in the world (and it actually happened) without it being arrogant? :rolleyes:

BTW, while whites may like certain black entertainers like Oprah, Bill Cosby, and Tiger, none of them have as much street cred as Venus and Serena.

Alan
Apr 20th, 2004, 10:37 AM
people/crowds would usually root for a lower ranked player because they want a longer match, i guess that was what the reporter was pointing out to venus

faste5683
Apr 20th, 2004, 11:31 AM
Girl Please. What's with your affectation with BLACK PEOPLE? That is what you need to ask yourself.

Everything that you post is in regards to some person of COLOR. Yes we dominate football and basketball and now we want total domination of Tennis and golf too.

:tape:

:wavey:

rjd1111
Apr 20th, 2004, 11:55 AM
again the race card is brought up :rolleyes:


Simply because its always there.

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 12:38 PM
Every white person who does not cheer the Williams is racist.

If a white crowd cheers Venus' or Serena' opponents louder they are racist. The whole WTA tour is racist. White people do not want to see the Williams be no.1. They want them to fail because they are black.

So, Williams fans, you got what you wanted to hear. Now get a life.

TeeRexx
Apr 20th, 2004, 12:47 PM
Every white person who does not cheer the Williams is racist.

If a white crowd cheers Venus' or Serena' opponents louder they are racist. The whole WTA tour is racist. White people do not want to see the Williams be no.1. They want them to fail because they are black.

So, Williams fans, you got what you wanted to hear. Now get a life.
And ironic as it is, this asshole, in all probability, finally told the truth about the reality of the Williams issue. :eek: :p

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:03 PM
Apparently VENUS thought very carefully about her answer and subsequent responses, therefore, some of you should reread her answer and re-evaluate what she meant by her statement.

Until some of you don black skin, grow up in Compton or Watts, are stopped for no reason by the police, are pressured to go to substandard secondary schools and experience bias in higher education and the corporate environment and society in general, then you should perhaps, give a further in depth research on this topic to help you to comprehend the response made by VENUS.

Just don black skin,that should be enough to entice, a change in the attitude of most. Never minimize what so many before us have sacrificed and died for.Renaming the court in FCC, was good move.

TeeRexx
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:26 PM
Just don black skin,that should be enough to entice, a change in the attitude of most. Never minimize what so many before us have sacrificed and died for.Renaming the court in FCC, was good move.
Reading the book, Black Like Me, might be a good start for some individuals.

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:28 PM
I can think of a lot of reasons that Venus may not receive as much crowd support and it has nothing to do with color. I also think her staement of a lack of crowd support in other tournaments is a bit of an exaggeration imo it has been no better or worse than the other top players.

Pureracket
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:50 PM
I can think of a lot of reasons that Venus may not receive as much crowd support and it has nothing to do with color. I also think her staement of a lack of crowd support in other tournaments is a bit of an exaggeration imo it has been no better or worse than the other top players.You HONESTLY believe that last statement you wrote? Seriously, look @ what you wrote again, and tell us the truth.

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:01 PM
Yes I believe that last statement I wrote otherwise I wouldn't have written it.

Pureracket
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Yes I believe that last statement I wrote otherwise I wouldn't have written it.So... . you missed her match against Amelie in the USOpen two years ago when even Martina was surprised about the lack of crowd support? You didn't see the matches against Zvonoreva or Raymond @ the FO(=) or the AusO, eh? The wild cheering for Samantha Reeves was all in her head too, right?

You can't use the following excuses:
Her father
underdog
bad attitude
home country
Even matches

Those have been used and put to rest already.

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:17 PM
I can think of a lot of reasons that Venus may not receive as much crowd support and it has nothing to do with color. I also think her staement of a lack of crowd support in other tournaments is a bit of an exaggeration imo it has been no better or worse than the other top players.


Believe me, when I tell you, I am not interested in changing your opinion of the state of the world. I am just giving you my perceptive from the Black, point of view. To say that my perception of the environment is flawed, will put yours into question. I hear you when you say, "It has nothing to do with color" and can understand why you would say that. Just try though, fellow human, to imagine how difficult it must be for the sisters, having grown up in an enviorment that is generaly shared by most blacks to believe otherwise. Better yet keep your white skin, just walk down any street in Harlem USA, return here to discuss this topic, this time with equal experience to our own.

Black Mamba.
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Because based on the ratio of population, there's a 1 out of 10 chance of that happening. That's pretty unlikely. BUT, it might happen.

No it won't happen, if you've ever seen the movie Head of State the last 10 minutes of the movie explains why there will never a Black President.

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:57 PM
No it won't happen, if you've ever seen the movie Head of State the last 10 minutes of the movie explains why there will never a Black President.

I hope you live a long life, it will happen :wavey:

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:59 PM
I can think of a lot of reasons that Venus may not receive as much crowd support and it has nothing to do with color. I also think her staement of a lack of crowd support in other tournaments is a bit of an exaggeration imo it has been no better or worse than the other top players.

Keep telling that to yourself....maybe one day you´ll believe it yourself. Of course it hasn´t everything to do with it, but NOTHING?! Please....

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 04:44 PM
First of all how easy is it for you to assume that because I am not jumping on the race card bandwagon that I am white for your information I am black and am quite happy being that way does this make me qualified to say somehting on this subject. I have found that skin color does not exclude anyone from being a racist all you have to be is close minded, quick to judge and blame other people for your problems instead of looking in the mirror. How about having a wider perspective than just the black one especially when dealing with an issue as complicated as race and realize everyone has problems and have gone through things not just you and me it is life a human thing not a black and white thing. As an African American I am aware that racism very well exists but I am very careful before I suggest racist intent on anyone's part because racism is too important an issue to trivialize or turn into an excuse so you aren't accountable for your actions. Personally I feel the reason that Venus may not get much crowd support is because even as a fan I can admit some of her matches are not exactly must see tv I have seen Venus play in such a dominating way that the end result is not in question she is just taking apart a decent player's game and making them look like they haven't picked up a racket or at least shouldn't so of course the crowd isn't going to really get into a match that is a foregone conclusion or they may cheer for the underdog to at least make it not as humiliating to watch to hold serve once can you really blame them. I have also seen Venus play sluggish, low energy matches with too many errors coming from both sides of the net with zero entertaining points to give the crowd anything to cheer about. I admit I haven't watched every match Venus has been in but I have rarely not heard a You can do it venus or Come on Venus at least once during her matches when she needs it or not seen her get a nice cheer from the crowd afterwards when she has deserved it. Tepid crowd response is not limited to venus I have seen numerous players not exactly light up the crowd and it is not a matter of them being black or white known or unknown but simply because the match was boring.

Pureracket
Apr 20th, 2004, 04:50 PM
First of all how easy is it for you to assume that because I am not jumping on the race card bandwagon that I am white for your information I am black and am quite happy being that way does this make me qualified to say somehting on this subject. I have found that skin color does not exclude anyone from being a racist all you have to be is close minded, quick to judge and blame other people for your problems instead of looking in the mirror. How about having a wider perspective than just the black one especially when dealing with an issue as complicated as race and realize everyone has problems and have gone through things not just you and me it is life a human thing not a black and white thing. As an African American I am aware that racism very well exists but I am very careful before I suggest racist intent on anyone's part because racism is too important an issue to trivialize or turn into an excuse so you aren't accountable for your actions. Personally I feel the reason that Venus may not get much crowd support is because even as a fan I can admit some of her matches are not exactly must see tv I have seen Venus play in such a dominating way that the end result is not in question she is just taking apart a decent player's game and making them look like they haven't picked up a racket or at least shouldn't so of course the crowd isn't going to really get into a match that is a foregone conclusion or they may cheer for the underdog to at least make it not as humiliating to watch to hold serve once can you really blame them. I have also seen Venus play sluggish, low energy matches with too many errors coming from both sides of the net with zero entertaining points to give the crowd anything to cheer about. I admit I haven't watched every match Venus has been in but I have rarely not heard a You can do it venus or Come on Venus at least once during her match when she needs it or not seen her get a nice chher from the crowd afterwards when she has deserved it.It seems that YOU'RE the one who's bringing up race. A little advice to you: Your being an African American or not has very little to do with whether or not race is a factor in the crowds rooting against Venus.

I am imagining that you consider yourself @ a bit of a higher level of "other African Americans" because you have "risen above" the issue of race when it comes to sensitive issues dealing with Black people. Maybe you have, but it STILL doesn't mean that it does not exist.

Your silence will not protect you.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Your silence will not protect you.

You tell em Pureracket!

They don't like venus and serena because they don't like their pulchritude!

alfonsojose
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:14 PM
humility ;)

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:41 PM
PureRacket first my post was in no way directed at you it was in response to someone else to whom it would make more sense so please hold the attitude. I have never said I am above anyone or anything but you can imagine whatever you want bottom line is you don't know me at all but thanks for the advice anyway. So if my silence will not protect me does that mean talking alot will.

Kabezya
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:50 PM
How is that something so positive stated by Venus about how the tennis fans and crowds reacted to her, how they made her feel, can have a post turn out so negative?

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:56 PM
How is that something so positive stated by Venus about how the tennis fans and crowds reacted to her, how they made her feel, can have a post turn out so negative?
__________________
Answer because some people decided to put words in Venus's mouth.

bandabou
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:00 PM
No words in nada sportfan...it´s aight. Great to see Venus finally being cheered...Venus wouldn´t say it for nothing, don´t you think?! She´s the player afterall, huh?!

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:16 PM
It seems that YOU'RE the one who's bringing up race. A little advice to you: Your being an African American or not has very little to do with whether or not race is a factor in the crowds rooting against Venus.

I am imagining that you consider yourself @ a bit of a higher level of "other African Americans" because you have "risen above" the issue of race when it comes to sensitive issues dealing with Black people. Maybe you have, but it STILL doesn't mean that it does not exist.

Your silence will not protect you.

Just ask Colin Powell, even Condolisa may soon have to answer to her masters. The poster you are responding to, and those of his Ilk, are the eternal optimist, they think that hard work along with a desire to be assimilated equals, equality, I say it does not, OJ Simpson gained nil from his assimilated persona. The point is this plain and simple. Venus and Serena worked hard to get where they are, that should be enough, in a perfect world the assimilated and those that desire some cultural identity should be accepted for their personal worth without the precursor of Race, to determine positive reinforcement. It is just not fair that some suffer, while others thrive because of public prejudices and if you think it is OK, then be prepared to eat the meal you prepared.

Paneru
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:22 PM
How is that something so positive stated by Venus about how the tennis fans and crowds reacted to her, how they made her feel, can have a post turn out so negative?

I know! :bolt:

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:29 PM
I know! :bolt:
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:
Point well made, I differ to the greater wisdom of the majority and offer all members of this thread A COLD CORONA. GOOOOOOOOOO VEEEEEEEEEEE
we will always love you. :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Just ask Colin Powell, even Condolisa may soon have to answer to her masters. The poster you are responding to, and those of his Ilk, are the eternal optimist, they think that hard work along with a desire to be assimilated equals, equality, I say it does not, OJ Simpson gained nil from his assimilated persona. The point is this plain and simple. Venus and Serena worked hard to get where they are, that should be enough, in a perfect world the assimilated and those that desire some cultural identity should be accepted for their personal worth without the precursor of Race, to determine positive reinforcement. It is just not fair that some suffer, while others thrive because of public prejudices and if you think it is OK, then be prepared to eat the meal you prepared.

Duneman - you are deep!

I salute you!

In other words O.J. ass kissing days got him NOTHING today, from the very people butts he kissed. Whereas, Muhammad Ali's (everything) got him praised and revered.

Might as well keep it professionally real.

BigTennisFan
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Duneman - you are deep!

I salute you!

In other words O.J. ass kissing days got him NOTHING today, from the very people butts he kissed. Whereas, Muhammad Ali's (everything) got him praised and revered.

Might as well keep it professionally real.
Of course with OJ there's the slight matter of a double murder.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:44 PM
First of all how easy is it for you to assume that because I am not jumping on the race card bandwagon that I am white for your information I am black and am quite happy being that way does this make me qualified to say somehting on this subject. I have found that skin color does not exclude anyone from being a racist all you have to be is close minded, quick to judge and blame other people for your problems instead of looking in the mirror. How about having a wider perspective than just the black one especially when dealing with an issue as complicated as race and realize everyone has problems and have gone through things not just you and me it is life a human thing not a black and white thing. As an African American I am aware that racism very well exists but I am very careful before I suggest racist intent on anyone's part because racism is too important an issue to trivialize or turn into an excuse so you aren't accountable for your actions. Personally I feel the reason that Venus may not get much crowd support is because even as a fan I can admit some of her matches are not exactly must see tv I have seen Venus play in such a dominating way that the end result is not in question she is just taking apart a decent player's game and making them look like they haven't picked up a racket or at least shouldn't so of course the crowd isn't going to really get into a match that is a foregone conclusion or they may cheer for the underdog to at least make it not as humiliating to watch to hold serve once can you really blame them. I have also seen Venus play sluggish, low energy matches with too many errors coming from both sides of the net with zero entertaining points to give the crowd anything to cheer about. I admit I haven't watched every match Venus has been in but I have rarely not heard a You can do it venus or Come on Venus at least once during her matches when she needs it or not seen her get a nice cheer from the crowd afterwards when she has deserved it. Tepid crowd response is not limited to venus I have seen numerous players not exactly light up the crowd and it is not a matter of them being black or white known or unknown but simply because the match was boring.

Clarence Thomas, I didn't know you were a tennis fan. :hehehe:

Pureracket
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:45 PM
Clarence Thomas, I didn't know you were a tennis fan. :hehehe:LOL!!!!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Knizzle
Apr 20th, 2004, 07:50 PM
Clarence Thomas, I didn't know you were a tennis fan. :hehehe:
:haha: :haha: :haha:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:04 PM
How is that something so positive stated by Venus about how the tennis fans and crowds reacted to her, how they made her feel, can have a post turn out so negative?
__________________
Answer because some people decided to put words in Venus's mouth.
No one is putting words in anyone's mouth. We are stating our own opinion as to what she meant. I think it's you who's putting words in people's mouths.

And, it escalated because people around here tend to invalidate other's opinions instead of respecting them. Then it got personal and now here we are.

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:05 PM
Oh brother is that the best you can do be snotty and condescending.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:05 PM
Just ask Colin Powell, even Condolisa may soon have to answer to her masters. The poster you are responding to, and those of his Ilk, are the eternal optimist, they think that hard work along with a desire to be assimilated equals, equality, I say it does not, OJ Simpson gained nil from his assimilated persona. The point is this plain and simple. Venus and Serena worked hard to get where they are, that should be enough, in a perfect world the assimilated and those that desire some cultural identity should be accepted for their personal worth without the precursor of Race, to determine positive reinforcement. It is just not fair that some suffer, while others thrive because of public prejudices and if you think it is OK, then be prepared to eat the meal you prepared.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Of course with OJ there's the slight matter of a double murder.
Oh please, that's a whole other thread. :p

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Oh brother is that the best you can do be snotty and condescending.
You feel condescended to?? :eek:
I thought you were above it all.

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:15 PM
You said and I quote " We are stating our own opinion as to what she meant. " please tell me how that is not putting words in Venus's mouth when it is your take on what she said not anything Venus said or may even have intended.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:25 PM
You said and I quote " We are stating our own opinion as to what she meant. " please tell me how that is not putting words in Venus's mouth when it is your take on what she said not anything Venus said or may even have intended.


Beat it Kiddo, we don't feel you.

Get out of our sandbox. :devil:

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:28 PM
You feel condescended to??
I thought you were above it all.
Okay show me where I ever implied that I was above it all and explain to me how your remark was neither condescending or snotty.

Sportfan
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Ballbuster :Beat it Kiddo, we don't feel you. Get out of our sandbox.


Now I get it I am dealing with children in that case you are right I should move on since I am an adult and can handle a conversation as one.

Pureracket
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:34 PM
Ballbuster :Beat it Kiddo, we don't feel you. Get out of our sandbox.


Now I get it I am dealing with children in that case you are right I should move on since I am an adult and can handle a conversation as one.Cool, then I'm sure you'll leave the sandbox and go to a place where race can be overlooked.

Please send me a postcard from that mythological location, will ya'.:wavey:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:39 PM
You said and I quote " We are stating our own opinion as to what she meant. " please tell me how that is not putting words in Venus's mouth when it is your take on what she said not anything Venus said or may even have intended.
Let me re-phrase...the difference being that if she said what she meant and we added more to what she said, that would be putting words in her mouth. However, since she didn't expressly state what she meant, the implication is open for opinion and debate. I'm sure you've heard the phrase..."I wonder what he/she meant by that".

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Now I get it I am dealing with children in that case you are right I should move on since I am an adult and can handle a conversation as one.


Next time you want to "quote" me hit the reply with quote button sweetheart. :kiss: In the meantime, we are through with you. Go play with Clarence Thomas and Condaleeza Rice and do the best to can to fit in.

Happy butt-kissing :wavey:

ico4498
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:46 PM
Wimbledon 2000

Q. Can you appreciate how hard it would have been for Althea Gibson in her time? Obviously Zina Garrison's victory impressed you. Can you image how difficult it was for her to break the colour line in tennis and how much it meant for the whole generation that followed?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Yeah, it had to be hard because people were unable to see past colour. Still these days, it's hardly any different because you have to realise it's only been 40 years. How can you change years and centuries of being biased in 40 years? So realistically, not too much has changed. But I really appreciate how hard it was. You realise not everyone wants you to win, not everyone's going to support you - and that's okay.

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:51 PM
You said and I quote " We are stating our own opinion as to what she meant. " please tell me how that is not putting words in Venus's mouth when it is your take on what she said not anything Venus said or may even have intended.


:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: I have had my Corona, hope evrybody enjoyed theirs :cool: OK, lets take the high road on this and assume that RACE has nothing to do with Queen Vee's statements.

VENUS WILLIAMS: Everybody has been so wonderful. Everyone has been such a huge fan. I've never played in front of such a crowd that was so supportive of me............. :confused: :confused: Never?, how is that possible? :confused: :confused:


Q. Venus, what are the crowds usually like, and what's the support usually like at other places you go? .......This individual already knows the answer, he is seeking :mad: :fiery: And hopes he has trapped our Queen, I hope you agree about his intentions :drool: :drool: :drool:

VENUS WILLIAMS: A lot of times I can be playing somewhere and it's right in the United States, and I can be playing someone who I don't even know how to pronounce her name, and you know, the crowd is very much rooting for the other player , so for me it's very unusual to come to a place and really everyone is just showing a lot of support.

She is playing in her own country, against someone whose name is so foreign that she cannot pronounce it, yet the crowd will root for the other player. She is surprised at the warmth and support shown by the FCC crowd, Why??? because she is not used to it. Now some use this lame ass excuse, that fans root for the underdog, Vee has not won a tourney since Feb last year, was beaten by up and coming players and is still not the underdog? Well, that's was not a popular opinion around here, before she won the FCC, in fact many were to eager to bury her and her career, so why was she not cheered as the underdog in the preceding tourneys? Be inventive and supply a totally new and improved reason why she still did now gain the support she deserved and in-fact was met with suspicion and hatred.

At this point, a thinking man would look for the differences between Vee and the other players, maybe they don't like tall girls.......Or successful California prodigies lol I am just wasting time, for your benefit, the answer is clear to even Ray Charles. Vee is just too :fiery: :fiery: classy to come out and say it, because she knows, her detractors will use it against not only her, but her family. So I am saying it, Its because she is female, successful and black :fiery:

fan911
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:58 PM
Wimbledon 2000

Q. Can you appreciate how hard it would have been for Althea Gibson in her time? Obviously Zina Garrison's victory impressed you. Can you image how difficult it was for her to break the colour line in tennis and how much it meant for the whole generation that followed?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Yeah, it had to be hard because people were unable to see past colour. Still these days, it's hardly any different because you have to realise it's only been 40 years. How can you change years and centuries of being biased in 40 years? So realistically, not too much has changed. But I really appreciate how hard it was. You realise not everyone wants you to win, not everyone's going to support you - and that's okay.

Not too much has changed? :confused: :rolleyes: That just proves that some black people will NEVER get over the past. Thousands of things has changed, if you still can't see that and you're still blinded by the past, then it's sad. Sure it's not perfect yet, but things have changed dramatically. But apparently people like Venus and some Williams fans pretend that we're still in the 50's and blame anything that is not perfect on racism.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:59 PM
Wimbledon 2000

Q. Can you appreciate how hard it would have been for Althea Gibson in her time? Obviously Zina Garrison's victory impressed you. Can you image how difficult it was for her to break the colour line in tennis and how much it meant for the whole generation that followed?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Yeah, it had to be hard because people were unable to see past colour. Still these days, it's hardly any different because you have to realise it's only been 40 years. How can you change years and centuries of being biased in 40 years? So realistically, not too much has changed. But I really appreciate how hard it was. You realise not everyone wants you to win, not everyone's going to support you - and that's okay.

Yoooohoooo, sportsfan!

You wanted Venus words, you got Venus words. Now stop your foolishness before you get chased home

harloo
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:03 PM
Woohoo another race debate!! Keep em coming, because most of this stuff being posted is laughable.:lol:

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Not too much has changed? :confused: :rolleyes: That just proves that some black people will NEVER get over the past. Thousands of things has changed, if you still can't see that and you're still blinded by the past, then it's sad. Sure it's not perfect yet, but things have changed dramatically. But apparently people like Venus and some Williams fans pretend that we're still in the 50's and blame anything that is not perfect on racism.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Let me guess, you are African American also

LeonHart
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:06 PM
Can you all just shut the f*ck up. Thanks. :wavey:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Can you all just shut the f*ck up. Thanks. :wavey:
Yeah everyone, let's all just shut the fuck up on a message board. :rolleyes:

Pureracket
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:09 PM
"sure there's racism, but. . . ."

THIS is always the verbal model for people who want to sweep racism under the rug. Damn, that's almost laughable how racism is minimized.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Not too much has changed? :confused: :rolleyes: That just proves that some black people will NEVER get over the past. Thousands of things has changed, if you still can't see that and you're still blinded by the past, then it's sad. Sure it's not perfect yet, but things have changed dramatically. But apparently people like Venus and some Williams fans pretend that we're still in the 50's and blame anything that is not perfect on racism.

Scram! Sportsfan is a much more worthy oponent.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Not too much has changed? :confused: :rolleyes: That just proves that some black people will NEVER get over the past. Thousands of things has changed, if you still can't see that and you're still blinded by the past, then it's sad. Sure it's not perfect yet, but things have changed dramatically. But apparently people like Venus and some Williams fans pretend that we're still in the 50's and blame anything that is not perfect on racism.
:cuckoo: :ignore:

faste5683
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Of course with OJ there's the slight matter of a double murder.

:tape:

Oh, well....

:wavey:

DUNEMAN
Apr 20th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Can you all just shut the f*ck up. Thanks. :wavey:

Hey, buddie, you gets no Corona :devil:

faste5683
Apr 20th, 2004, 10:07 PM
Exactly, If white SC really liked Black people so much, then why did they continue to fly that flag of people who faught to keep slavery in the face of all it's black citizens?

For many people in the south, the issue of wanting to keep the Confederate battle flag is far deeper than simply wanting to keep slavery "in the face of all it's black citizens."

The majority of white males fighting for the south were not slave owners - nor did they realistically expect to be. What Lee and the Confederate army fought for was an ideal: that America's founders had created a limited goverment, that is was dependant on local control and local representation, and that any attempt by some higher Federal level of goverment to impose it's will on the day to day actions of it's citizens would be a return a tryanny similar to Britan's rule over the colonies.

You can talk about slavery, economics, and tariff power, but at the end of the day the war was about "How" America was to be governed.

So, *some* of these people see the banning of "their" state flag as just one more slap in the face by an ever intrusive federal goverment.

:wavey:

:wavey:

nander
Apr 21st, 2004, 12:07 AM
I am not American and so maybe should keep myself quiet on this one.
But am I to understand you to be saying that because the white soldiers were not slave owners, they were not fighting to keep slavery in place? I am indeed pained to think that these men were fighting without knowing what for. Do you think that if somebody had explained to them that slavery was part of the deal, they would have refused to fight. As much as I hate all wars, I hope they at least were fighting for something they believed in. If my grasp of history is anything it tells me that the crucial difference between the N & S at that time, was that one group claimed to own other human beings and the other did not (didn't particularly like them but felt that trying to own other people was not particularly good for the owned or the owner, economically and otherwise !!). By the way , in my opinion (I am female) the women benefited directly and were an active part of trying to maintain the status quo.
Surely some forms of morality supercede any local wishes to be left alone.
Ask the people in charge of the world today.
For many people in the south, the issue of wanting to keep the Confederate battle flag is far deeper than simply wanting to keep slavery "in the face of all it's black citizens."

The majority of white males fighting for the south were not slave owners - nor did they realistically expect to be. What Lee and the Confederate army fought for was an ideal: that America's founders had created a limited goverment, that is was dependant on local control and local representation, and that any attempt by some higher Federal level of goverment to impose it's will on the day to day actions of it's citizens would be a return a tryanny similar to Britan's rule over the colonies.

You can talk about slavery, economics, and tariff power, but at the end of the day the war was about "How" America was to be governed.

So, *some* of these people see the banning of "their" state flag as just one more slap in the face by an ever intrusive federal goverment.

:wavey:

:wavey:

mykarma
Apr 21st, 2004, 02:52 AM
Please give examples. Heck, Patty was arrogant last week but she got booed. Jeff Tarrango was arrogant but he got booed. And the list goes on... Richard Williams was arrogant and to a lesser extent also Venus & Serena early on, so don't expect something different and don't blame something else other then their arrogance. Whoever is arrogant (black or white) are not cheered as much, and whoever is not arrogant (black or white) are loved. Yeah there are exceptions but that goes for both sides. Mike Tyson was always arrogant, but people cheer him.
One comes to mind quickly. How about Larry Byrd

mykarma
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:07 AM
Let's take a more exagerated example just to show my point:

If you take China, you put one black candidate and one asian candidate, both decent. Of course the asian candidate would win because of many things like the culture for instance. It's not necessarly the color of skin or that people hate the black person. It's more of "connecting" because of traditions, similarites, etc.
Oh, now I understand. :confused:
Exagerated is what it is. China is a country of Chinese, where American is a multicultural country, with all nationalities and culturals. My question to you is, how can you continue to argue about something you've not experienced? An opinion is one thing, but from your post, you're arguing as though you know for a fact. You have your opinion, but an opinion is all you have.

fan911
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:13 AM
:yawn:

mykarma
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:34 AM
For many people in the south, the issue of wanting to keep the Confederate battle flag is far deeper than simply wanting to keep slavery "in the face of all it's black citizens."

The majority of white males fighting for the south were not slave owners - nor did they realistically expect to be. What Lee and the Confederate army fought for was an ideal: that America's founders had created a limited goverment, that is was dependant on local control and local representation, and that any attempt by some higher Federal level of goverment to impose it's will on the day to day actions of it's citizens would be a return a tryanny similar to Britan's rule over the colonies.

You can talk about slavery, economics, and tariff power, but at the end of the day the war was about "How" America was to be governed.

So, *some* of these people see the banning of "their" state flag as just one more slap in the face by an ever intrusive federal goverment.

:wavey:

:wavey:
Excuse myefaste, but the flag that the south is now waving, was not the flag that was used during the confederate war. This flag became popular during the civil rights movement, and continues to be the flag of the KKK, and its liked brethen. The war is over and the south lost. There is only one flag for this country and its the American flag. :bounce:

JenCpLvr
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:36 AM
I kept telling myself I wasn't going to bring myself into this thread... but one question does seem legite to bring up here....

Do any of the african-american posters on this board actually like a caucasion/euro player? If a match drew the likes of a Mashona Washington and Lindsay Davenport.. would any of you pull for the better, higher ranked player.. or would you cheer on another person of your race?

I hate to make a blanket statement, but I see far more whites pulling for the Williams sisters than I ever have blacks pulling for white opponent.

fan911
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:39 AM
I kept telling myself I wasn't going to bring myself into this thread... but one question does seem legite to bring up here....

Do any of the african-american posters on this board actually like a caucasion/euro player? If a match drew the likes of a Mashona Washington and Lindsay Davenport.. would any of you pull for the better, higher ranked player.. or would you cheer on another person of your race?

I hate to make a blanket statement, but I see far more whites pulling for the Williams sisters than I ever have blacks pulling for another player.

Excellent point. If a black player plays a white player, you would rarely see a black person rooting for the white one. I'd say not even 1% of black people would root for him. On the other hand, MANY white people would root for Serena or Venus.

DeDe4925
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:49 AM
I kept telling myself I wasn't going to bring myself into this thread... but one question does seem legite to bring up here....

Do any of the african-american posters on this board actually like a caucasion/euro player? If a match drew the likes of a Mashona Washington and Lindsay Davenport.. would any of you pull for the better, higher ranked player.. or would you cheer on another person of your race?

I hate to make a blanket statement, but I see far more whites pulling for the Williams sisters than I ever have blacks pulling for another player.
You're right, the majority of the blacks would root for the black American betweem two Americans. But, you must understand the dynamics involved here. This country is not a level playing field and neither is tennis. Blacks are the minority in this country and we have been oppressed in this country for over 500 years. Therefore, to see one of our own in a position to excell means a lot more to us, than it ever would for you or your race. It's not as (pardon the pun) black and white as you may seem to think it is. It took 400 years for it to be legal for blacks to even read and another 100 years before we were able to drink out of the same water fountain as whites, and you deign to pose the question regarding who'd we'd root for in a tennis match between a black American and white American some 39 years later? Come on now, I can't imagine you are so naive.

Knizzle
Apr 21st, 2004, 04:20 AM
I kept telling myself I wasn't going to bring myself into this thread... but one question does seem legite to bring up here....

Do any of the african-american posters on this board actually like a caucasion/euro player? If a match drew the likes of a Mashona Washington and Lindsay Davenport.. would any of you pull for the better, higher ranked player.. or would you cheer on another person of your race?

I hate to make a blanket statement, but I see far more whites pulling for the Williams sisters than I ever have blacks pulling for white opponent.
I also root for Seles, Davenport and Masha. I used to be a Justine fan also. I would have rooted for any of these against everyone except the sisters.

dreamgoddess099
Apr 21st, 2004, 05:35 AM
For many people in the south, the issue of wanting to keep the Confederate battle flag is far deeper than simply wanting to keep slavery "in the face of all it's black citizens." Keeping slavery in the face of all of it's black citizens is not something simple and for many "black people in the south," nothing is deeper. Or perhaps the feelings of the Black citizens don't count?


The majority of white males fighting for the south were not slave owners - nor did they realistically expect to be. What Lee and the Confederate army fought for was an ideal: that America's founders had created a limited goverment, that is was dependant on local control and local representation, and that any attempt by some higher Federal level of goverment to impose it's will on the day to day actions of it's citizens would be a return a tryanny similar to Britan's rule over the colonies. Yeah sure, they were very Ideal men fighting against tryanny so they could keep their own tryanny over their slaves and continue to beat, rape, kill, ect. them. Must have taken so much courage to fight for something so wrong. :rolleyes:



You can talk about slavery, economics, and tariff power, but at the end of the day the war was about "How" America was to be governed.No dear, the war was about a certain part of the country wanting to separate to form their own government so they could keep their way of life (slavery). It's not about what they were trying to do, it's about the reason they were trying to do it.

So, *some* of these people see the banning of "their" state flag as just one more slap in the face by an ever intrusive federal goverment. Once again, they have problems with people slapping them in the face, but no problems slapping others.

dreamgoddess099
Apr 21st, 2004, 06:26 AM
Do any of the african-american posters on this board actually like a caucasion/euro player?Is this a serious question? :lol: Of course, what's not to like about certain nice caucasion/euro players. If a match drew the likes of a Mashona Washington and Lindsay Davenport.. would any of you pull for the better, higher ranked player.. or would you cheer on another person of your race? Actually, I wouldn't care about either of them because they are not my favs. Now, say Venus or Serena against Chanda, I'd still cheer for the Williams over Chanda because they are my favs.



I hate to make a blanket statement, but I see far more whites pulling for the Williams sisters than I ever have blacks pulling for white opponent. How many black players are in the top 100? Black people aren't cheering for black players because they are black. It's what they represent which is change and growth. Black players are minorities on tour, therefore underdogs?

TeeRexx
Apr 21st, 2004, 07:57 AM
Is this a serious question? :lol: Of course, what's not to like about certain nice caucasion/euro players. Actually, I wouldn't care about either of them because they are not my favs. Now, say Venus or Serena against Chanda, I'd still cheer for the Williams over Chanda because they are my favs.


How many black players are in the top 100? Black people aren't cheering for black players because they are black. It's what they represent which is change and growth. Black players are minorities on tour, therefore underdogs?
A very good answer to a somewhat narrow minded question. My favorite male players are Federer and Agassi. Favorite female players are VENUS, SERENA, Anna K. (retired :) ) and Momo.

Not exactly an all black cast is it, sports fans? :eek: :p

Bye.:wavey:

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:34 AM
:bounce: I kept telling myself I wasn't going to bring myself into this thread... but one question does seem legite to bring up here....

Do any of the african-american posters on this board actually like a caucasion/euro player? If a match drew the likes of a Mashona Washington and Lindsay Davenport.. would any of you pull for the better, higher ranked player.. or would you cheer on another person of your race?

I hate to make a blanket statement, but I see far more whites pulling for the Williams sisters than I ever have blacks pulling for white opponent.

:bounce: I was not born a Williams fan I support
Monica,Chanda,Lindsey, kim, used to like Jelena, but she got issues, :bounce: if they play the sisters, I got to say GOOOOOOOO Williams :bounce:

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:35 AM
Although I resist introducing academia to this forum, I do think we may owe an explanation to the rest of the world, about the cause of the War of Succession. First, the flag that is being disputed is the Battle flag of the confederate states; it represents the violent attempt to overthrow the government of the United States. Ironically, the war started in Charleston, S.C. not far from :bounce: Daniel :bounce: Island :bounce: in 1861. Southern troops fired on Ft Sumpter, a U.S. military outpost, the reasons for this unprecedented act of violence are many but three main ones are touted as the cause.

1-Sectional Division: The Southern Section of the U.S. had a warmer climate, fertile soil and conditions ideal for an agricultural economy. Large tobacco, and cotton plantations sprung up and slaves were imported to work them. The southern lifestyle was rural and supported by an agricultural economy based on slave labor. (Rural)

The Northern Section: A cooler climate, with rocky soil not suitable for large plantations. The Northern economy depended more on trade than agriculture. This type of economy favored the growth of cities. Industry and commerce thrived and cities grew rapidly. Great advances in transportation and communications aided this booming economy. (Urban)

2-Slavery: Most Americans regarded slavery as a necessary evil, unable to ABOLISH slavery the founding fathers compromised over it, in the constitution. The southerners accepted the idea that the South’s economy would collapse without slavery and those blacks were inferior to whites and needed no protection under the constitution.

In the North, slavery began to be looked on as wrong and the ABOLITIONIST movement began campaigning to end it. One third of all Southerners owned slaves and the rest were involved in the slave economy in one way or another.


3-Political Situation: the Articles of Confederation, which was thrown aside in favor of the Constitution, brought about The US national government. The articles of confederation granted independence to each state, The Constitution established a league of states and a government to exercise authority over all its citizens. After many debates over the differences between the North and South, the southern states reverted to the articles of confederation, and established the Confederate States, which preceded the attack on FT. Sumpter.

The site of the FCC is saturated with Civil War history and is an apropiate place for reconciliation. After reading this article, you may now understand the importance of the fan reaction at the FCC and continue the movement for change and freedom for those slaves still in captivity. :wavey: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:49 AM
You didn't read (or comprehend) the statement. "Most" of the southren soldiers were poor famers (not slave owners), mill workers, clerks, etc. They were NOT slave owners, nor did they ever expect to be.

Think again, and do some research on the subject. Roughly 240,000 Condfederate soldiers died during the civil war - maybe 3 or 4% were slave owners. Now, if I was a poor white farmer, I wouldn't go out and get my ass shot off so some rich guy on the plantation next door could keep his slaves. No way! But if I had an innate fear of a tyrannical goverment- remember that the Revolutionary war was only a generation past-then I would have the motivation to fight for what I thought was a noble cause.


:wavey: The problem with this premise is the CAUSE. If you fight in defence of the Articles of Confederation which were overturned in favor of the Constitution, and a lifestyle that promotes slavery, genocide and isolation, I fail to see the Nobility inherent in your Cause :mad:

faste5683
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:50 AM
Keeping slavery in the face of all of it's black citizens is not something simple and for many "black people in the south," nothing is deeper. Or perhaps the feelings of the Black citizens don't count?

And the feelings of the white citizens for their *history* don't?


Yeah sure, they were very Ideal men fighting against tryanny so they could keep their own tryanny over their slaves and continue to beat, rape, kill, ect. them. Must have taken so much courage to fight for something so wrong. :rolleyes:

You didn't read (or comprehend) the statement. "Most" of the southren soldiers were poor famers (not slave owners), mill workers, clerks, etc. They were NOT slave owners, nor did they ever expect to be.


No dear, the war was about a certain part of the country wanting to separate to form their own government so they could keep their way of life (slavery). It's not about what they were trying to do, it's about the reason they were trying to do it.

Think again, and do some research on the subject. Roughly 240,000 Condfederate soldiers died during the civil war - maybe 25% were slave owners. Now, if I was a poor white farmer, I wouldn't go out and get my ass shot off so some rich guy on the plantation next door could keep his slaves. No way! But if I had an innate fear of a tyrannical goverment- remember that the Revolutionary war was only a generation past-then I would have the motivation to fight for what I thought was a noble cause.


:wavey:

faste5683
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:58 AM
:wavey: The problem with this premise is the CAUSE. If you fight in defence of the Articles of Confederation which were overturned in favor of the Constitution, and a lifestyle that promotes slavery, genocide and isolation, I fail to see the Nobility inherent in your Cause :mad:

It's not *my* cause. It's another bit of historical fact which many of the "flag" defenders believe to be important. The more information we have on any subject, the better off we are in the long run. I just threw another viewpoint (explaining the cause) into the mix.

:wavey:

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 12:29 PM
It's not *my* cause. It's another bit of historical fact which many of the "flag" defenders believe to be important. The more information we have on any subject, the better off we are in the long run. I just threw another viewpoint (explaining the cause) into the mix.

:wavey:

:wavey: Then allow me to put this into the mix. You can't have it both ways, even though I can understand, the strong Independent veiwpoint of the, then Southern mentality. That flag will be forever, remembered for a vile and unjust system of oppresion, and the people who fought to keep it in place. How do you separate one from the other? :wavey:

DelMonte
Apr 21st, 2004, 12:38 PM
Think again, and do some research on the subject. Roughly 240,000 Condfederate soldiers died during the civil war - maybe 25% were slave owners. Now, if I was a poor white farmer, I wouldn't go out and get my ass shot off so some rich guy on the plantation next door could keep his slaves. No way! But if I had an innate fear of a tyrannical goverment- remember that the Revolutionary war was only a generation past-then I would have the motivation to fight for what I thought was a noble cause.


:wavey:

Let me say beforehand that I am not an expert in American history.

I think I understand the point your are trying to make, faste5683, but I think ultimately it is this very point that demonstrates what the main problem is.

If the argument can be made that most Confederate fighters were not interested in slavery or fighting to preserve the instititution of slavery, then does this not demonstrate how completely marginal and unimportant (or at least secondary) one of the cruelest and most brutal chapters in modern history was to them? And was/is this not the problem?

Try to apply your argument to Nazi Germany. Do you think that Jews today could be convinced to accept that some Germans would want to continue to use some Nationalist-Socialist symbols to celebrate their German history in a way that is completely unrelated to the Holocaust?

After all, not everyone was a Nazi during WW2 Germany (in the same way as you point out that not every Southerner was a slave owner) and someone could try and make the argument that it is legitimate for Germans to want to use some cultural or political symbols for legitimate nationalist (ie non-racist) purposes.

The counter-argument to that would be that the Holocaust was so evil and so overwhelming that it colours everything about the Third Reich. I think you will find that many people of African descent feel the same about slavery in the South-- that the systematic removal of millions of people (some estimates claiming maybe 50 million or more), their degradation, dehumanization, rape and murder was so fundamental that it cannot be disentagled from what the American South was. Thus people defending both Nazi Germany and the South were also effectively (regardless of their personal beliefs) at the same time defending the preservation of societies which were based on the dehumanization of other human beings.

Unless one wants to diminish slavery or the Holocaust, one has to accept that for victims of both institustions/events/crimes, the use of any symbols which were prevalent during those times is a painful reminder of what happened to their peoples.

I suppose it depends on whose perspective you chose to endorse.

DelMonte

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 12:48 PM
Let me say beforehand that I am not an expert in American history.

I think I understand the point your are trying to make, faste5683, but I think ultimately it is this very point that demonstrates what the main problem is.

If the argument can be made that most Confederate fighters were not interested in slavery or fighting to preserve the instititution of slavery, then does this not demonstrate how completely marginal and unimportant (or at least secondary) one of the cruelest and most brutal chapters in modern history was to them? And was/is this not the problem?

Try to apply your argument to Nazi Germany. Do you think that Jews today could be convinced to accept that some Germans would want to continue to use some Nationalist-Socialist symbols to celebrate their German history in a way that is completely unrelated to the Holocaust?

After all, not everyone was a Nazi during WW2 Germany (in the same way as you point out that not every Southerner was not a slave owner) and someone could try and make the argument that it is legitimate for Germans to want to use some cultural or political symbols for legitimate nationalist (ie non-racist) purposes.

The counter-argument to that would be that the Holocaust was so evil and so overwhelming that it colours everything about the Third Reich. I think you will find that many people of African descent feel the same about slavery in the South-- that the systematic removal of millions of people (some estimates claiming maybe 50 million or more), their degradation, dehumanization, rape and murder was so fundamental that it cannot be disentagled from what the American South was. Thus people defending both Nazi Germany and the South were also effectively (regardless of their personal beliefs) at the same time defending the preservation of societies which were based on the dehumanization of other human beings.

Unless one wants to diminish slavery or the Holocaust, one has to accept that for victims of both institustions/events/crimes, the use of any symbols which were prevalent during those times is a painful reminder of what happened to their peoples.

I suppose it depends on whose perspective you chose to endorse.

DelMonte



Thank you! It is comforting to see, that our Euro, brothers have an understanding of the situation. Injustice is the most prolific of demons,and its defence involve truly Satanic talent.

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:20 PM
This tread should still be ragarded as positive. Vee was overjoyed because of the fan response, and a change in the climate is observed and noted. :cool:

bandabou
Apr 21st, 2004, 03:28 PM
How foolish of people to ask if black people cheer for white players?! Hello....one can count the number of black players in the top 100...and before the Williamses came along we haven´t had a credible black slam contender in ages.

So it was either cheering for a white girl or not watch tennis at all. Guess what most of the black fans did?!

My first fav was Martina Hingis btw.

DeDe4925
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:00 PM
Although I resist introducing academia to this forum, I do think we may owe an explanation to the rest of the world, about the cause of the War of Succession. First, the flag that is being disputed is the Battle flag of the confederate states; it represents the violent attempt to overthrow the government of the United States. Ironically, the war started in Charleston, S.C. not far from :bounce: Daniel :bounce: Island :bounce: in 1861. Southern troops fired on Ft Sumpter, a U.S. military outpost, the reasons for this unprecedented act of violence are many but three main ones are touted as the cause.

1-Sectional Division: The Southern Section of the U.S. had a warmer climate, fertile soil and conditions ideal for an agricultural economy. Large tobacco, and cotton plantations sprung up and slaves were imported to work them. The southern lifestyle was rural and supported by an agricultural economy based on slave labor. (Rural)

The Northern Section: A cooler climate, with rocky soil not suitable for large plantations. The Northern economy depended more on trade than agriculture. This type of economy favored the growth of cities. Industry and commerce thrived and cities grew rapidly. Great advances in transportation and communications aided this booming economy. (Urban)

2-Slavery: Most Americans regarded slavery as a necessary evil, unable to ABOLISH slavery the founding fathers compromised over it, in the constitution. The southerners accepted the idea that the South’s economy would collapse without slavery and those blacks were inferior to whites and needed no protection under the constitution.

In the North, slavery began to be looked on as wrong and the ABOLITIONIST movement began campaigning to end it. One third of all Southerners owned slaves and the rest were involved in the slave economy in one way or another.


3-Political Situation: the Articles of Confederation, which was thrown aside in favor of the Constitution, brought about The US national government. The articles of confederation granted independence to each state, The Constitution established a league of states and a government to exercise authority over all its citizens. After many debates over the differences between the North and South, the southern states reverted to the articles of confederation, and established the Confederate States, which preceded the attack on FT. Sumpter.

The site of the FCC is saturated with Civil War history and is an apropiate place for reconciliation. After reading this article, you may now understand the importance of the fan reaction at the FCC and continue the movement for change and freedom for those slaves still in captivity. :wavey: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

DeDe4925
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:03 PM
And the feelings of the white citizens for their *history* don't?




You didn't read (or comprehend) the statement. "Most" of the southren soldiers were poor famers (not slave owners), mill workers, clerks, etc. They were NOT slave owners, nor did they ever expect to be.




Think again, and do some research on the subject. Roughly 240,000 Condfederate soldiers died during the civil war - maybe 25% were slave owners. Now, if I was a poor white farmer, I wouldn't go out and get my ass shot off so some rich guy on the plantation next door could keep his slaves. No way! But if I had an innate fear of a tyrannical goverment- remember that the Revolutionary war was only a generation past-then I would have the motivation to fight for what I thought was a noble cause.


:wavey:
Hey boo, at least use quotation marks. I know I do ;)

:wavey:

DeDe4925
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:07 PM
Let me say beforehand that I am not an expert in American history.

I think I understand the point your are trying to make, faste5683, but I think ultimately it is this very point that demonstrates what the main problem is.

If the argument can be made that most Confederate fighters were not interested in slavery or fighting to preserve the instititution of slavery, then does this not demonstrate how completely marginal and unimportant (or at least secondary) one of the cruelest and most brutal chapters in modern history was to them? And was/is this not the problem?

Try to apply your argument to Nazi Germany. Do you think that Jews today could be convinced to accept that some Germans would want to continue to use some Nationalist-Socialist symbols to celebrate their German history in a way that is completely unrelated to the Holocaust?

After all, not everyone was a Nazi during WW2 Germany (in the same way as you point out that not every Southerner was a slave owner) and someone could try and make the argument that it is legitimate for Germans to want to use some cultural or political symbols for legitimate nationalist (ie non-racist) purposes.

The counter-argument to that would be that the Holocaust was so evil and so overwhelming that it colours everything about the Third Reich. I think you will find that many people of African descent feel the same about slavery in the South-- that the systematic removal of millions of people (some estimates claiming maybe 50 million or more), their degradation, dehumanization, rape and murder was so fundamental that it cannot be disentagled from what the American South was. Thus people defending both Nazi Germany and the South were also effectively (regardless of their personal beliefs) at the same time defending the preservation of societies which were based on the dehumanization of other human beings.

Unless one wants to diminish slavery or the Holocaust, one has to accept that for victims of both institustions/events/crimes, the use of any symbols which were prevalent during those times is a painful reminder of what happened to their peoples.

I suppose it depends on whose perspective you chose to endorse.

DelMonte
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

DeDe4925
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:10 PM
Thank you! It is comforting to see, that our Euro, brothers have an understanding of the situation. Injustice is the most prolific of demons,and its defence involve truly Satanic talent.
Dang Dune, you did a bang up job with the historical facts and all, but Del brought it home. I applaud you guys 100 times over. :bigclap: :clap2: :bigclap: :clap2: :bigclap: :clap2:

Mrs. Peel
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:15 PM
Let me say beforehand that I am not an expert in American history.

I think I understand the point your are trying to make, faste5683, but I think ultimately it is this very point that demonstrates what the main problem is.

If the argument can be made that most Confederate fighters were not interested in slavery or fighting to preserve the instititution of slavery, then does this not demonstrate how completely marginal and unimportant (or at least secondary) one of the cruelest and most brutal chapters in modern history was to them? And was/is this not the problem?

Try to apply your argument to Nazi Germany. Do you think that Jews today could be convinced to accept that some Germans would want to continue to use some Nationalist-Socialist symbols to celebrate their German history in a way that is completely unrelated to the Holocaust?

After all, not everyone was a Nazi during WW2 Germany (in the same way as you point out that not every Southerner was a slave owner) and someone could try and make the argument that it is legitimate for Germans to want to use some cultural or political symbols for legitimate nationalist (ie non-racist) purposes.

The counter-argument to that would be that the Holocaust was so evil and so overwhelming that it colours everything about the Third Reich. I think you will find that many people of African descent feel the same about slavery in the South-- that the systematic removal of millions of people (some estimates claiming maybe 50 million or more), their degradation, dehumanization, rape and murder was so fundamental that it cannot be disentagled from what the American South was. Thus people defending both Nazi Germany and the South were also effectively (regardless of their personal beliefs) at the same time defending the preservation of societies which were based on the dehumanization of other human beings.

Unless one wants to diminish slavery or the Holocaust, one has to accept that for victims of both institustions/events/crimes, the use of any symbols which were prevalent during those times is a painful reminder of what happened to their peoples.

I suppose it depends on whose perspective you chose to endorse.

DelMonte

omg...this post :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

labkin
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:35 PM
Venus handled the question very well. What bothers me is twofold. First, that many people swear that racism isn't a factor in why the sisters are criticized. I suppose it is because of the Chanda litmus test. Rubin isn't criticized therefore racism isn't a problem in tennis. While I love Chanda, she has never been a big threat to the establishment and the top contenders of the tour. Venus and Serena have been that threat since day one, and since tennis has always been an elitist white sport, I will never believe that all criticism is based on a dislike of their style of play, etc.

Second, I am also disturbed that Venus is so aware of why people dislike her. While she skirted the issue quite well, it has to hurt in some way knowing that others dislike you because of your race. How ironic then, that Venus finds her best audience in a while in South Carolina? A state not necessarily known for racial harmony.

I don't think people dislike Venus and Serena because of their race. I think it's the attitude they sometimes exhibit, the self-aggrandizing comments they tend to make, and the general lack of respect for other players that they seemed to show when they first started on the tour. Audiences don't like other players who exhibit bad attitudes or disrespect, regardless of race. As Venus and Serena have matured, they have gotten better. A threat to the establishment because of their race? Please! The assumption that all or most white people don't like others because of their race is itself racist. People should be allowed to have opinions about the attitude of others without being called a racist. Chanda Rubin is a polite, respectful, graceful individual who speaks well of others and is an all-around good sport. That's why people like her, not because she hasn't been No. 1 or 2 in the world. I also take issue with labeling tennis as an elitist white sport. Look at the backgrounds of most players on tour. Look at the struggling countries where most players are from and the conditions they had to overcome to make it. Can we broaden our perspectives just a little? :rolleyes: Are there racists in the world? Absolutely. :sad: But they come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ethnicities.

DeDe4925
Apr 21st, 2004, 08:56 PM
I don't think people dislike Venus and Serena because of their race. I think it's the attitude they sometimes exhibit, the self-aggrandizing comments they tend to make, and the general lack of respect for other players that they seemed to show when they first started on the tour. Audiences don't like other players who exhibit bad attitudes or disrespect, regardless of race. As Venus and Serena have matured, they have gotten better. A threat to the establishment because of their race? Please! The assumption that all or most white people don't like others because of their race is itself racist. People should be allowed to have opinions about the attitude of others without being called a racist. Chanda Rubin is a polite, respectful, graceful individual who speaks well of others and is an all-around good sport. That's why people like her, not because she hasn't been No. 1 or 2 in the world. I also take issue with labeling tennis as an elitist white sport. Look at the backgrounds of most players on tour. Look at the struggling countries where most players are from and the conditions they had to overcome to make it. Can we broaden our perspectives just a little? :rolleyes: Are there racists in the world? Absolutely. :sad: But they come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ethnicities.
Same shit, different day. :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:09 PM
I don't think people dislike Venus and Serena because of their race. I think it's the attitude they sometimes exhibit, the self-aggrandizing comments they tend to make, and the general lack of respect for other players that they seemed to show when they first started on the tour. .

Can you elaborate and be specific with regard to the attitude that the Sisters "sometimes exhibit", and their "self-aggrandizing comments"? Could you also be specific as to the "general lack of respect for other players that they seemed to show when they first started on the tour"? This is one I'd really love to hear. Also, would you consider their lack of respect for the other players to be worse than the lack of respect shown to them by the other players or the same? If the same, then why would they be singled out if they were giving what they received or reacting to what they received? For example, the several negative comments made by Martina Hingis, Jennifer Capriati, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Spirlea, etc.

Are these your opinions of the Sisters or is this what you heard and since you heard it thought it must be true? Or did you personally witness this behavior from the Sisters? Did you follow their career that closely in the beginning to witness such behavior from them?

I also take issue with labeling tennis as an elitist white sport. Look at the backgrounds of most players on tour. Look at the struggling countries where most players are from and the conditions they had to overcome to make it. Can we broaden our perspectives just a little? :rolleyes:

In the early days of tennis, where were tennis courts located in the US? Would you say, college campuses, and restricted country clubs? Aside from the foreign players on the tour, even now, are there any top 50 Jewish American players or Hispanic American players? Do you understand why I asked the last question?

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:27 PM
Can you elaborate and be specific with regard to the attitude that the Sisters "sometimes exhibit", and their "self-aggrandizing comments"? Could you also be specific as to the "general lack of respect for other players that they seemed to show when they first started on the tour"? This is one I'd really love to hear. Also, would you consider their lack of respect for the other players to be worse than the lack of respect shown to them by the other players or the same? If the same, then why would they be singled out if they were giving what they received or reacting to what they received? For example, the several negative comments made by Martina Hingis, Jennifer Capriati, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Spirlea, etc.

Are these your opinions of the Sisters or is this what you heard and since you heard it thought it must be true? Or did you personally witness this behavior from the Sisters? Did you follow their career that closely in the beginning to witness such behavior from them?



In the early days of tennis, where were tennis courts located in the US? Would you say, college campuses, and restricted country clubs? Aside from the foreign players on the tour, even now, are there any top 50 Jewish American players or Hispanic American players? Do you understand why I asked the last question?

:smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: lol, the smack down. The WILLIAMS SISTERS TAG TEAM, IN FULL AFFECT :worship: :worship: :worship:

Callie20
Apr 21st, 2004, 09:46 PM
Not too much has changed? :confused: :rolleyes: That just proves that some black people will NEVER get over the past. Thousands of things has changed, if you still can't see that and you're still blinded by the past, then it's sad. Sure it's not perfect yet, but things have changed dramatically. But apparently people like Venus and some Williams fans pretend that we're still in the 50's and blame anything that is not perfect on racism.

Maybe it's your denial that is the real problem. May I ask you a question? What is it that qualifies you to be an expert on the black state of mind? From my past experiences you have to live the experience in order to know it.



:rolleyes:

Ballbuster
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:00 PM
I don't think people dislike Venus and Serena because of their race. I think it's the attitude they sometimes exhibit, the self-aggrandizing comments they tend to make, and the general lack of respect for other players that they seemed to show when they first started on the tour. Audiences don't like other players who exhibit bad attitudes or disrespect, regardless of race. As Venus and Serena have matured, they have gotten better. A threat to the establishment because of their race? Please!

Venus and Serena essentially ignored the gals on the tour. They had each other and played and practiced with each other. Then they began Plowing through the tour. That was the fear.

The girls was jealous because they didn't hang-out in the players lounge and allow them in their business. Yes, they essentially distanced themselves from them. What do V&S have in common with the tour? They don't design dresses and homes.

Besides, they knew Venus got that Reebok contract at an early age. More jealously.

faste5683
Apr 21st, 2004, 10:36 PM
Let me say beforehand that I am not an expert in American history.

I think I understand the point your are trying to make, faste5683, but I think ultimately it is this very point that demonstrates what the main problem is.

If the argument can be made that most Confederate fighters were not interested in slavery or fighting to preserve the instititution of slavery, then does this not demonstrate how completely marginal and unimportant (or at least secondary) one of the cruelest and most brutal chapters in modern history was to them? And was/is this not the problem?

This is a great post. Thank you. If you recall, the state flag battle is not my fight, or even a concern; I do, however, have friends and acquaintances (white folk), who truly feel that the flag issue is a matter of tradition and history - their history-and that they are being compromised.

Try to apply your argument to Nazi Germany. Do you think that Jews today could be convinced to accept that some Germans would want to continue to use some Nationalist-Socialist symbols to celebrate their German history in a way that is completely unrelated to the Holocaust?

Of course not - and I'm not trying to deny the horrors of slavery in the south - that should be a given. Here's what I'm saying: that to a large extent, the idea of a federal goverment which could force individual states to abide by *its* rule was seen by southern leaders as a deviation from the concept of a true republic. Quite terrifying, in their eyes.

A quote from Abraham Lincoln: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union and is not either to save or to destroy slavery.” During this time, Lincoln's power grew tenfold; he suspended habeas corpus (the right of people held by the goverment to demand a hearing before an independent judge).

"While the U.S. Constitution authorizes Congress to suspend habeas corpus in an emergency, the president is delegated no such power. Nevertheless, President Lincoln had war dissenters, including newspaper editors and political leaders, taken into custody. He also had newspapers closed, in clear violation of the Bill of Rights. During the war Americans had their first experience with national conscription, one of the most extreme forms of rights violation.

The federal government also expanded its financing of internal improvements, aiding railroads with land and loans, and granting land to states for the establishment of colleges. The Department of Agriculture and the position of Commissioner of Immigration were created during this period. The war also occasioned a veterans pension program, which was transformed into a source of patronage and vote buying that lived on long after the death of the last veteran."

http://www.onpower.org/history_civil.html

A last quote from the link:

"While many of these interventions were eventually ended or scaled back, the federal government never returned to its pre-war size. More important, the political culture of the United States changed from one favoring decentralized and limited government to one more favorable to European-style centralized and intrusive bureaucracy."

Hopefully, what I've pointed out will give you a glimpse of how the civil war can be seen as an idealogical struggle on how the American goverment should operate as well as the abolishment of slavery.

:wavey:

DUNEMAN
Apr 21st, 2004, 11:37 PM
This is a great post. Thank you. If you recall, the state flag battle is not my fight, or even a concern; I do, however, have friends and acquaintances (white folk), who truly feel that the flag issue is a matter of tradition and history - their history-and that they are being compromised.



Of course not - and I'm not trying to deny the horrors of slavery in the south - that should be a given. Here's what I'm saying: that to a large extent, the idea of a federal goverment which could force individual states to abide by *its* rule was seen by southern leaders as a deviation from the concept of a true republic. Quite terrifying, in their eyes.

A quote from Abraham Lincoln: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union and is not either to save or to destroy slavery.” During this time, Lincoln's power grew tenfold; he suspended habeas corpus (the right of people held by the goverment to demand a hearing before an independent judge).

"While the U.S. Constitution authorizes Congress to suspend habeas corpus in an emergency, the president is delegated no such power. Nevertheless, President Lincoln had war dissenters, including newspaper editors and political leaders, taken into custody. He also had newspapers closed, in clear violation of the Bill of Rights. During the war Americans had their first experience with national conscription, one of the most extreme forms of rights violation.

The federal government also expanded its financing of internal improvements, aiding railroads with land and loans, and granting land to states for the establishment of colleges. The Department of Agriculture and the position of Commissioner of Immigration were created during this period. The war also occasioned a veterans pension program, which was transformed into a source of patronage and vote buying that lived on long after the death of the last veteran."

http://www.onpower.org/history_civil.html

A last quote from the link:

"While many of these interventions were eventually ended or scaled back, the federal government never returned to its pre-war size. More important, the political culture of the United States changed from one favoring decentralized and limited government to one more favorable to European-style centralized and intrusive bureaucracy."

Hopefully, what I've pointed out will give you a glimpse of how the civil war can be seen as an idealogical struggle on how the American goverment should operate as well as the abolishment of slavery.

:wavey:

:wavey: :wavey: I am forced to accept your point of view, you seem so serious in your attempt to convince me that somehow, genocide, torture and murder is somehow acceptable, that it can only mean only one thing. THE ABOVE POST IS YOUR HISTORY. Please indulge me this once and feel,smell,taste,hear and hopefully see mine.

For weeks, months, sometimes as long as a year, they waited in the dungeons of the slave factories scattered along Africa's western coast. They had already made the long, difficult journey from Africa's interior -- but just barely. Out of the roughly 20 million who were taken from their homes and sold into slavery, half didn't complete the journey to the African coast, most of those dying along the way.

And the worst was yet to come.

The captives were about to embark on the infamous Middle Passage, so called because it was the middle leg of a three-part voyage -- a voyage that began and ended in Europe. The first leg of the voyage carried a cargo that often included iron, cloth, brandy, firearms, and gunpowder. Upon landing on Africa's "slave coast," the cargo was exchanged for Africans. Fully loaded with its human cargo, the ship set sail for the Americas, where the slaves were exchanged for sugar, tobacco, or some other product. The final leg brought the ship back to Europe.

The African slave boarding the ship had no idea what lay ahead. Africans who had made the Middle Passage to the plantations of the New World did not return to their homeland to tell what happened to those people who suddenly disappeared. Sometimes the captured Africans were told by the white men on the ships that they were to work in the fields. But this was difficult to believe, since, from the African's experience, tending crops took so little time and didn't require many hands. So what were they to believe? More than a few thought that the Europeans were cannibals. Olaudah Equiano, an African captured as a boy who later wrote an autobiography, recalled . . .



When I looked round the ship too and saw a large furnace of copper boiling, and a mulititude of black people of every description chained together, every one of their countenances expressing dejection and sorrow, I no longer doubted of my fate and quite overpowered with horrow and anguish, I fell motionless on the deck and fainted. . . . I asked if we were not to be eaten by those white men with horrible looks, red faces and long hair?"



The slaves were branded with hot irons and restrained with shackles. Their "living quarters" was often a deck within the ship that had less than five feet of headroom -- and throughout a large portion of the deck, sleeping shelves cut this limited amount of headroom in half.4 Lack of standing headroom was the least of the slaves' problems, though. With 300 to 400 people packed in a tiny area5 -- an area with little ventilation and, in some cases, not even enough space to place buckets for human waste -- disease was prevalent. According to Equiano, "The closeness of the place, and the heat of the climate, added to the number in the ship, which was so crowded that each had scarcely room to turn himself, almost suffocated us. This produced copious perspirations, so that the air soon became unfit for respiration, from a variety of loathsome smells, and brought on a sickness among the slaves, of which many died."

Faced with the nightmarish conditions of the voyage and the unknown future that lay beyond, many Africans preferred to die. But even the choice of suicide was taken away from these persons. From the captain's point of view, his human cargo was extremely valuable and had to be kept alive and, if possible, uninjured. A slave who tried to starve him or herself was tortured. If torture didn't work, the slave was force fed with the help of a contraption called a speculum orum, which held the mouth open.

Despite the captain's desire to keep as many slaves as possible alive, Middle Passage mortality rates were high. Although it's difficult to determine how many Africans died en route to the new world, it is now believed that between ten and twenty percent of those transported lost their lives. :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Heading for Jamaica in 1781, the ship Zong was nearing the end of its voyage. It had been twelve weeks since it had sailed from the west African coast with its cargo of 417 slaves. Water was running out. Then, compounding the problem, there was an outbreak of disease. The ship's captain, reasoning that the slaves were going to die anyway, made a decision. In order to reduce the owner's losses he would throw overboard the slaves thought to be too sick to recover. The voyage was insured, but the insurance would not pay for sick slaves or even those killed by illness. However, it would cover slaves lost through drowning.

The captain gave the order; 54 Africans were chained together, then thrown overboard. Another 78 were drowned over the next two days. By the time the ship had reached the Caribbean,132 persons had been murdered.

When the ship returned to England the owners made their claim -- they wished to be compensated the full value for each slave lost. The claim might have been honored had if it had not been for former slave Equiano, then living in England, who learned of the tragedy and alerted an abolitionist friend of his. The case went to court. At first the jury ruled in favor of the ship's owners. Since it was permissible to kill animals for the safety of the ship, they decided, it was permissible to kill slaves for the same reason. The insurance company appealed, and the case was retried. This time the court decided that the Africans on board the ship were people. It was a landmark decision.

On another voyage, on another ship, a similar incident occurred. On La Rodeur in 1812, there was an outbreak of ophthalmia, a disease that causes temporary blindness. Both slaves and crew were afflicted. The captain, fearing that the blindness was permanent and knowing that blind slaves would be difficult if not impossible to sell, sent 39 slaves over the rails to their watery death. As with the captain of the Zong, he hoped that the insurance would cover the loss. :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:


Resource Bank Contents





click image for close-up With good reason, plantation masters feared the spread of smallpox. The introduction of the disease to their slaves could lead to an epidemic. They were therefore cautious when buying people recently imported from Africa. They avoided persons suffering from this contagious disease, but often paid higher prices for individuals with pock marks on their faces, showing that they had survived the sickness and would not become infected again.

Some broadsides announcing the sale of slaves made such statements as, "The utmost care has already been taken, and shall be continued, to keep them free from the least danger of being infected with the SMALL-POX." Other broadsides, such as the one displayed here from Charleston, South Carolina, revealed that slaves to be sold had been exposed to smallpox during their voyage but had been quarantined until the disease subsided. In an effort to prevent the spread of contagious diseases, or "pestilences," among South Carolina's population, colonial authorities required incoming slave ships to unload their unfree passengers at the "pest house" on Sullivan's Island near the entrance to Charleston Harbor.


CHARLESTOWN, April 27, 1769
TO BE SOLD,
On Wednesday the Tenth Day of
May next,
A CHOICE CARGO OF
Two Hundred & Fifty
NEGROES:
ARRIVED in the Ship
Countess of Sussex, Thomas Davies,
Master, directly from Gambia, by
JOHN CHAPMAN, & Co.

THIS is the Vessel that had the Small-Pox on Board at the Time of her Arrival the 31st of March last: Every necessary Precaution hath since been taken to cleanse both Ship and Cargo thoroughly, so that those who may be inclined to purchase need not be under the least Apprehension of Danger from Infliction.

The NEGROES are allowed to be the likeliest Parcel that have been imported this Season.

1769

:wavey: How can anyone with one single human gene in their body even attempt to defend such a disgrace to all humanity? Satanic talent comes to mind. :devil: <-------is this you?

DeDe4925
Apr 22nd, 2004, 04:59 AM
This is a great post. Thank you. If you recall, the state flag battle is not my fight, or even a concern; I do, however, have friends and acquaintances (white folk), who truly feel that the flag issue is a matter of tradition and history - their history-and that they are being compromised.



Of course not - and I'm not trying to deny the horrors of slavery in the south - that should be a given. Here's what I'm saying: that to a large extent, the idea of a federal goverment which could force individual states to abide by *its* rule was seen by southern leaders as a deviation from the concept of a true republic. Quite terrifying, in their eyes.

A quote from Abraham Lincoln: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union and is not either to save or to destroy slavery.” During this time, Lincoln's power grew tenfold; he suspended habeas corpus (the right of people held by the goverment to demand a hearing before an independent judge).

"While the U.S. Constitution authorizes Congress to suspend habeas corpus in an emergency, the president is delegated no such power. Nevertheless, President Lincoln had war dissenters, including newspaper editors and political leaders, taken into custody. He also had newspapers closed, in clear violation of the Bill of Rights. During the war Americans had their first experience with national conscription, one of the most extreme forms of rights violation.

The federal government also expanded its financing of internal improvements, aiding railroads with land and loans, and granting land to states for the establishment of colleges. The Department of Agriculture and the position of Commissioner of Immigration were created during this period. The war also occasioned a veterans pension program, which was transformed into a source of patronage and vote buying that lived on long after the death of the last veteran."

http://www.onpower.org/history_civil.html

A last quote from the link:

"While many of these interventions were eventually ended or scaled back, the federal government never returned to its pre-war size. More important, the political culture of the United States changed from one favoring decentralized and limited government to one more favorable to European-style centralized and intrusive bureaucracy."

Hopefully, what I've pointed out will give you a glimpse of how the civil war can be seen as an idealogical struggle on how the American goverment should operate as well as the abolishment of slavery.

:wavey:
Ed, I'm not going to write a book here or quote anything. But, I am going to say that those who are worried about their legacy or their history, should have that as the least of their worries. By that, I contend that "their history" is fraught with the suffering of human beings. The history of the south's attempt at succession and the reasons behind the attempt is so minute compared to the history of the dehumanization, suffering and death of black people that anyone who defends that flag and tries to justify flying it in these United States should be ashamed. It is the ultimate dehumanization, in that quite frankly, those who defend the flag just don't care that certain human beings were treated in such a manner. It is a second thought or not even a thought at all, which is sad because it means we haven't come that far at all in 500 years in the way some people think of black people.

Lastly, anyone with a junior high school education is quite aware of Lincoln's reasons for the Civil War. Lincoln is far from a hero in my eyes, but a shrewd politician. However, the end justifies the means.

DUNEMAN
Apr 22nd, 2004, 09:47 AM
"Lastly, anyone with a junior high school education is quite aware of Lincoln's reasons for the Civil War. Lincoln is far from a hero in my eyes, but a shrewd politician. However, the end justifies the means" <----DeMond said :wavey:


Just another indicator of how volatile the situation was, think he was shot because of his shrewdness? I am not a suspicious person by nature, neither am I unfamiliar with the rules of a debate. I can recognize a diversion at 20 paces, everything the poster you are responding to said, have some merit, except for the fact that the freedom the South was fighting so hard to protect, is tainted with injustice and the blood of slavery. Are we to enshrine our former slave masters and other tyrants in history, pay homage to their noble cause? or continue to support a platform of humanity world wide? Thank you, to the city of Charleston,SC., your support for the sisters helps to keep yesterday firmly in the past. We will never forget, but we are not blaming you :)

dreamgoddess099
Apr 22nd, 2004, 10:43 AM
And the feelings of the white citizens for their *history* don't?




Of course they do and always have. That's the problem; their feelings have always mattered more.

faste5683
Apr 22nd, 2004, 11:48 AM
:

:wavey: How can anyone with one single human gene in their body even attempt to defend such a disgrace to all humanity? Satanic talent comes to mind. :devil: <-------is this you?

Selective reading. My participation in this discussion has been about a point of view, a *reason*, other than the abolishment of slavery, for the war between the states.
There has been no defense of slavery, no examples of justification, simply a point made that war was about more (for many southerners) than practicing slavery. It was also considered a revolution against an all prevading, big-brother type goverment.

I'd suggest you learn to discuss a topic without the name calling - it lessons the credibility of what you're trying to say.

:wavey:

DUNEMAN
Apr 22nd, 2004, 12:42 PM
Selective reading. My participation in this discussion has been about a point of view, a *reason*, other than the abolishment of slavery, for the war between the states.
There has been no defense of slavery, no examples of justification, simply a point made that war was about more (for many southerners) than practicing slavery. It was also considered a revolution against an all prevading, big-brother type goverment.

I'd suggest you learn to discuss a topic without the name calling - it lessons the credibility of what you're trying to say.

:wavey:

:wavey: :wavey: oK, LETS TRY ANOTHER AVENUE,It is obvious that the "people" you are reffering to, Do not live in the 1700s. It would be PC to take the "Big Brother" route TODAY, mainly because slavery is now against the law.(I THINK) But for one second, do you think that back in the 1700 the southern position did not also include their right to own slaves????

As far as name calling goes, my friend, you need not be so sensitive I have not yet called you a name. I was reffering to the Confederate citizens of the 1700s South, the devil picture represents the type of mentaly that would be neccessary to inflict so much pain and suffering on your fellow human beings. However it is interesting that you would anwer that question. Your motivation SIR, IS???? You know what mine is. :fiery:

JenCpLvr
Apr 22nd, 2004, 09:41 PM
I don't think people dislike Venus and Serena because of their race. I think it's the attitude they sometimes exhibit, the self-aggrandizing comments they tend to make, and the general lack of respect for other players that they seemed to show when they first started on the tour. Audiences don't like other players who exhibit bad attitudes or disrespect, regardless of race. As Venus and Serena have matured, they have gotten better. A threat to the establishment because of their race? Please! The assumption that all or most white people don't like others because of their race is itself racist. People should be allowed to have opinions about the attitude of others without being called a racist. Chanda Rubin is a polite, respectful, graceful individual who speaks well of others and is an all-around good sport. That's why people like her, not because she hasn't been No. 1 or 2 in the world. I also take issue with labeling tennis as an elitist white sport. Look at the backgrounds of most players on tour. Look at the struggling countries where most players are from and the conditions they had to overcome to make it. Can we broaden our perspectives just a little? :rolleyes: Are there racists in the world? Absolutely. :sad: But they come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ethnicities.

AMEN AMEN AMEN! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

DUNEMAN
Apr 24th, 2004, 11:17 AM
AMEN AMEN AMEN! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Thank you for joining the FCC crowd in praise of my Queen
:tennis: :rolls: :rolls: :banghead: :crazy: :sport:

Experimentee
Apr 24th, 2004, 04:49 PM
I find it disturbing that some people refuse to acknowledge that racism plays any part whatsoever in people cheering against Venus and Serena. Of course not everyone who dislikes them is racist, but a lot of them are. And I'm not talking about conscious racism here, most of the time its due to unconscious racial biases. People often hold others of different races to a higher standard, and think less of them if they said something arrogant, while forgiving someone of their own race. And they arent aware of this. They think they dislike a player because of their attitude, etc, but in truth other players with the same kind of attitude are not as hated.
People of all races have some kind of racial biases towards others, not only whites. It just happens that tennis is predomnantly a white sport, so it has a majority of white fans.