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View Full Version : Venus at FCC: A completely biased analysis


Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:07 AM
First, congrats to my fave for her first tour win in far too long.

Now to the fun stuff.

First, this was far from 'vintage Venus' but I view that as a good thing. Venus herself has said that back in 2000, she won matches by 'hitting the ball as hard as I can, every shot'. This was very different.

She went to the one handed backhand a lot, and won a few points with it. Granted, Conchi was forcing this with great shotmaking of her own, but four years ago, Venus takes those two-handed and tries to return them as power shots.

She went to net what qualifies as a lot these days, Nav would laugh at that, of course, but Venus had gone to net over 20 times by the end of the second set. I don't know the total, but when Venus was winning slams, she rarely went to net more than five or six times a match. If that. She showed a lot of confidence in her volley, even when Conchi was passing her, or when she missed a volley or two. And she missed very few of them.

While I am blissfully ectastic tha Venus won this title, it has to be acknowledged that she didn't beat any top ten players to do it. Did she beat any of the top ten CLAY COURT players? Probably two of them. But the rankings don't go by surface.

Venus accepted certain risks that maybe I wouldn't. Even when it became apparent that Conchi was having a good serving day, Venus took every first serve standing on the baseline. She took every second serve three feet inside the baseline. That meant giving up some service winners to Conchi.

Most of Venus' double faults were long. She was going for what I would have considered ridiculous depth on her second serve. Then again, to beat Serena, she's going to have to have consistent depth on her second serve. If you go for that kind of depth on a second serve, you're going to have double-faults.

Another word or two on volleys. First, Venus ought to move Conchi into her home, and practice against her every day. What a nightmare array of passing shots! Offensive lobs, slices, topspins, floaters, crosscourt, DTL. Venus is not going to play anybody else this year with more ways to beat an opponent at net. But Venus won the battle. That crosscourt drop volley winner was Hingis-esque. And Venus got consistent depth on her approach shots, and consistent depth on her volleys.

This tournament was far and away the best net display I've seen from Venus.

Is the nuclear devastation of 2000-1 back? I think not. But I also think Venus had taken that as far as she could.

A couple months ago I called Serena the Death of the Power Baseliner. I think that still holds. She's unbeatable by anyone playing that style. But Justine proved that if a) you aren't giving Serena too big an edge on pace, b) you get some free points of your own on serve, c) you throw a lot variety at her, and d) you're playing on clay, Serena can be taken.

Venus can do a) and b), doesn't have to worry about d) and is clearly working on c). ('Digs C & W and R & B and me and the chimpazee agree that one day soon she'll be, a celebrity.')

Venus the power baseliner was as good as she'd ever be.

Venus the all-court net-rusher has room to grow. A LOT of room.

You notice in her post match TV interview, when they asked her about going to net so often, she replied, "Well, I guess Billie Jean can be happy now. And Zina. And my Mom and Dad." Get the idea that the coaches are unified in the idea that she get her bony ass to net?:)

I see this tournament as a sign that Venus has decided to become a better tennis player, not just a winning one. She can still blast 99% of the tour off the court. But she won't become the best she can be that way.

The win was nice. The way she played was nicer.

Sportfan
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:19 AM
Well said I also think she sent the clear message that her forehand is not something to look to as a way to attack her any longer.

BigTennisFan
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:20 AM
First, congrats to my fave for her first tour win in far too long.

Now to the fun stuff.

First, this was far from 'vintage Venus' but I view that as a good thing. Venus herself has said that back in 2000, she won matches by 'hitting the ball as hard as I can, every shot'. This was very different.

She went to the one handed backhand a lot, and won a few points with it. Granted, Conchi was forcing this with great shotmaking of her own, but four years ago, Venus takes those two-handed and tries to return them as power shots.

She went to net what qualifies as a lot these days, Nav would laugh at that, of course, but Venus had gone to net over 20 times by the end of the second set. I don't know the total, but when Venus was winning slams, she rarely went to net more than five or six times a match. If that. She showed a lot of confidence in her volley, even when Conchi was passing her, or when she missed a volley or two. And she missed very few of them.

While I am blissfully ectastic tha Venus won this title, it has to be acknowledged that she didn't beat any top ten players to do it. Did she beat any of the top ten CLAY COURT players? Probably two of them. But the rankings don't go by surface.

Venus accepted certain risks that maybe I wouldn't. Even when it became apparent that Conchi was having a good serving day, Venus took every first serve standing on the baseline. She took every second serve three feet inside the baseline. That meant giving up some service winners to Conchi.

Most of Venus' double faults were long. She was going for what I would have considered ridiculous depth on her second serve. Then again, to beat Serena, she's going to have to have consistent depth on her second serve. If you go for that kind of depth on a second serve, you're going to have double-faults.

Another word or two on volleys. First, Venus ought to move Conchi into her home, and practice against her every day. What a nightmare array of passing shots! Offensive lobs, slices, topspins, floaters, crosscourt, DTL. Venus is not going to play anybody else this year with more ways to beat an opponent at net. But Venus won the battle. That crosscourt drop volley winner was Hingis-esque. And Venus got consistent depth on her approach shots, and consistent depth on her volleys.

This tournament was far and away the best net display I've seen from Venus.

Is the nuclear devastation of 2000-1 back? I think not. But I also think Venus had taken that as far as she could.

A couple months ago I called Serena the Death of the Power Baseliner. I think that still holds. She's unbeatable by anyone playing that style. But Justine proved that if a) you aren't giving Serena too big an edge on pace, b) you get some free points of your own on serve, c) you throw a lot variety at her, and d) you're playing on clay, Serena can be taken.

Venus can do a) and b), doesn't have to worry about d) and is clearly working on c). ('Digs C & W and R & B and me and the chimpazee agree that one day soon she'll be, a celebrity.')

Venus the power baseliner was as good as she'd ever be.

Venus the all-court net-rusher has room to grow. A LOT of room.

You notice in her post match TV interview, when they asked her about going to net so often, she replied, "Well, I guess Billie Jean can be happy now. And Zina. And my Mom and Dad." Get the idea that the coaches are unified in the idea that she get her bony ass to net?:)

I see this tournament as a sign that Venus has decided to become a better tennis player, not just a winning one. She can still blast 99% of the tour off the court. But she won't become the best she can be that way.

The win was nice. The way she played was nicer.Hear, Hear! :)
I am especially glad to see that she is finally taking her net game seriously. As you said, she's no Marti Nav in terms of getting there, but she is beginning to get there. And once there, she clearly can handle her business :D
Methinks that this bodes well for her fans and it bodes ill for the rest of the tour. :D

They're Baaaaaaaaacccccck! :bounce:

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:25 AM
Well said I also think she sent the clear message that her forehand is not something to look to as a way to attack her any longer.
As opposed to her backhand? Better near-certain death than certain death.

Knizzle
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:29 AM
First, congrats to my fave for her first tour win in far too long.

Now to the fun stuff.

First, this was far from 'vintage Venus' but I view that as a good thing. Venus herself has said that back in 2000, she won matches by 'hitting the ball as hard as I can, every shot'. This was very different.

She went to the one handed backhand a lot, and won a few points with it. Granted, Conchi was forcing this with great shotmaking of her own, but four years ago, Venus takes those two-handed and tries to return them as power shots. I agree with this. I noticed there were some shots she used to hit two handed and would miss, but now she is slicing them and staying in the rally

She went to net what qualifies as a lot these days, Nav would laugh at that, of course, but Venus had gone to net over 20 times by the end of the second set. I don't know the total, but when Venus was winning slams, she rarely went to net more than five or six times a match. If that. She showed a lot of confidence in her volley, even when Conchi was passing her, or when she missed a volley or two. And she missed very few of them. You're wrong about the net thing. When Venus was winning slams she WAS going to the net alot. Not as much as she did in her matches this week, but she would be there alot.

While I am blissfully ectastic tha Venus won this title, it has to be acknowledged that she didn't beat any top ten players to do it. Did she beat any of the top ten CLAY COURT players? Probably two of them. But the rankings don't go by surface. Venus' confidence doesn't come with who she is beating, but rather how she is playing and where she feels her game is. She beat Vera this tourney in 2, but wasn't totally happy because her she didn't think she played that well. So this doesn't really matter in Venus' case. I agree some players do get confidence from who they beat, but not Venus.

Venus accepted certain risks that maybe I wouldn't. Even when it became apparent that Conchi was having a good serving day, Venus took every first serve standing on the baseline. She took every second serve three feet inside the baseline. That meant giving up some service winners to Conchi. Venus stands on the baseline for everyone's serve, even Serena's. Nothing new there. Richard taught them to do that from seeing Monica Seles do it.

Most of Venus' double faults were long. She was going for what I would have considered ridiculous depth on her second serve. Then again, to beat Serena, she's going to have to have consistent depth on her second serve. If you go for that kind of depth on a second serve, you're going to have double-faults. I agree with this, it's better to go for it than to hit the second serve into the net.

Another word or two on volleys. First, Venus ought to move Conchi into her home, and practice against her every day. What a nightmare array of passing shots! Offensive lobs, slices, topspins, floaters, crosscourt, DTL. Venus is not going to play anybody else this year with more ways to beat an opponent at net. But Venus won the battle. That crosscourt drop volley winner was Hingis-esque. And Venus got consistent depth on her approach shots, and consistent depth on her volleys.

This tournament was far and away the best net display I've seen from Venus.

Is the nuclear devastation of 2000-1 back? I think not. But I also think Venus had taken that as far as she could.

A couple months ago I called Serena the Death of the Power Baseliner. I think that still holds. She's unbeatable by anyone playing that style. But Justine proved that if a) you aren't giving Serena too big an edge on pace, b) you get some free points of your own on serve, c) you throw a lot variety at her, and d) you're playing on clay, Serena can be taken.

Venus can do a) and b), doesn't have to worry about d) and is clearly working on c). ('Digs C & W and R & B and me and the chimpazee agree that one day soon she'll be, a celebrity.')

Venus the power baseliner was as good as she'd ever be.

Venus the all-court net-rusher has room to grow. A LOT of room.

You notice in her post match TV interview, when they asked her about going to net so often, she replied, "Well, I guess Billie Jean can be happy now. And Zina. And my Mom and Dad." Get the idea that the coaches are unified in the idea that she get her bony ass to net?:)

I see this tournament as a sign that Venus has decided to become a better tennis player, not just a winning one. She can still blast 99% of the tour off the court. But she won't become the best she can be that way.

The win was nice. The way she played was nicer. :yeah:

Bright Red
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:30 AM
Great analysis. I don't think it is biased at all. You hit the nail on the head.

Ballbuster
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Get the idea that the coaches are unified in the idea that she get her bony ass to net?:)

The way she played was nicer.

That ass is no where near bony. (you may need to adjust your glasses) That is a fat ass. She maybe have long legs and a slender trunk, but that ass is PHat! - Please beliveve.

And watching her play today was a breath of fresh air. She displayed the old-aggressive, determined, on-point, "I'm winning this no matter what" Venus.

It is only up from here.

ys
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:41 AM
In a way, I think clay helped her. I am still convinced that she is much slower than she used to be. Her shotmaking is very good, as good as it has ever been. But not footspeed. And slow surface, comparing to hardcourts, gave her those few precious extra fraction of seconds that she needed to be able to get into the hitting position.

Knizzle
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:43 AM
In a way, I think clay helped her. I am still convinced that she is much slower than she used to be. Her shotmaking is very good, as good as it has ever been. But not footspeed. And slow surface, comparing to hardcourts, gave her those few precious extra fraction of seconds that she needed to be able to get into the hitting position.
She is having ankle issues, but is moving better with each match. She'll get her movement back. She never was the best mover on clay anyway.

Ballbuster
Apr 19th, 2004, 01:50 AM
In a way, I think clay helped her. I am still convinced that she is much slower than she used to be. Her shotmaking is very good, as good as it has ever been. But not footspeed. And slow surface, comparing to hardcourts, gave her those few precious extra fraction of seconds that she needed to be able to get into the hitting position.

You NEED to be analyzing Russians and finding out why THEY can't make it to the winners circle.

WF4EVER
Apr 19th, 2004, 02:05 AM
Knizzle said: "Venus' confidence doesn't come with who she is beating, but rather how she is playing and where she feels her game is. She beat Vera this tourney in 2, but wasn't totally happy because her she didn't think she played that well. So this doesn't really matter in Venus' case. I agree some players do get confidence from who they beat, but not Venus."

Never a truer statement IMO. As long as Venus is satisfied with her own game she thinks she can beat anybody. That's why she says she doesn't worry about her opponent's game; her own confidence is what enables her to play well.

YS said: "In a way, I think clay helped her. I am still convinced that she is much slower than she used to be. Her shotmaking is very good, as good as it has ever been. But not footspeed. And slow surface, comparing to hardcourts, gave her those few precious extra fraction of seconds that she needed to be able to get into the hitting position."

I absolutely agree. Whereas I thought clay would hurt Serena (I was right) I knew it would help Vee. I wonder if that's because she has a better understanding of what is required of her. But as far as her being slower than usual, hopefully by the time the clay season is over she should be totally back, shouldn't she? I sure hope so.

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:11 AM
Is she really playing Fed Cup Warsaw AND Berlin? Isn't that excessive?

ys
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:13 AM
Is she really playing Fed Cup Warsaw AND Berlin? Isn't that excessive?That's what I thought too.. Venus playing 4 weeks in a row is unheard of..

LindsayRocks89
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:14 AM
good analysis volcana! :D

tennnisfannn
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:32 AM
Is she really playing Fed Cup Warsaw AND Berlin? Isn't that excessive?Fed cup is only two matches since she isn't playing doubles. 3 clay tournys before RG ain't too much really. I hope she stays healthy and gets her clay feet on.
Otherwise Volcano love to read your analysis of Venus. Every match she plays is gonna do her a world of good. Shake some rust off.

sioul
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:46 AM
great anaylsis. i think u were very objective, but the bias i guess coming from the fact that u know her game so well.

I have to say i think venus losing and not having that great results up till now, and even with her shaky play is a good thing, because the way i see it, its not venus getting worse, its venus changing. she is smart enough to know that while she is still great with the other girls, against serena especially, she has to transform into something better then she was, and i see her doing that now. her net play, little adjustments she's making, so i see this period as a transitioning period which is why you get the shaky results. i think venus decided that even number 2 isnt good enough. she wants to be back at 1.

azinna
Apr 19th, 2004, 07:06 AM
great analysis, great thread. Love the positive vibe. Isn't it good to have the Diva back on the 'walk?

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 07:17 AM
Well Venus really had been practicing very hard at the FCC starting with Sunday. She was out there for at least 3 hours. She was working on coming to the net and her forehand. I didn't think she was ever going to get her timing on her forehand returns to click. I was scared she was going to run out of steam because she was practicing so hard when she had matches. Thankfully, her return game came together and she didn't run out of energy. :)

Seenus
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:35 AM
conchi's style invites net play

sartrista7
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:00 AM
Is she really playing Fed Cup Warsaw AND Berlin? Isn't that excessive?

She'll be in Slovenia for Fed Cup this year... not as far to travel to Warsaw as last year (I still think her crucial mistake last year was not allowing enough time to adjust/acclimatise when she stayed in the US until the last minute before flying out to Warsaw).

I would've thought she'd play Rome instead, but oh well.

Bright Red
Apr 19th, 2004, 02:19 PM
Well Venus really had been practicing very hard at the FCC starting with Sunday. She was out there for at least 3 hours. She was working on coming to the net and her forehand. I didn't think she was ever going to get her timing on her forehand returns to click. I was scared she was going to run out of steam because she was practicing so hard when she had matches. Thankfully, her return game came together and she didn't run out of energy. :)
That's cool that you got to see Venus practice! Lucky, lucky. I've seen Venus play at Stanford, San Diego, the French and Australian Opens and I've never once seen her practice (other than the warmup stuff they do right before playing). I did, however, see Serena practice at the French Open.

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 02:53 PM
great anaylsis. i think u were very objective, but the bias i guess coming from the fact that u know her game so well.
The bias is just that I'm such a fan of her's, and have been so long. I expected her to win OZ, inspite of the fact I knew objectively that was insane. NOTHING I say about Venus is objective. It couldn't possibly be. I try to fair about it, but I'm human (or as human as a disembodied spirit gets) and my feelings do influence my judgement.

Pureracket
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:00 PM
Volcana,
Excellent analysis. Thanks for taking time out to write it.

steffilover
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:18 PM
i have to say i think volcana's review was very optimistic. she almost lost to samantha reeves(!?), was down in the second to zvonareva and dropped the first set 6-2 in the final to a 32 yr old has-been (or never was!). back in martinez' prime, seles and graf were eating her alive 1 and 1, even on clay. venus had a very lucky tournament.:wavey:

SerialKiller#69
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:22 PM
For a completely biased analysis, I enjoyed reading it. Good news that Venus won (though I don't like her). Hopefully, she'll start rising to the top for a much better competition. :)

Pureracket
Apr 19th, 2004, 04:23 PM
Steffilover,
She almost lost to Samantha Reeves? She lost the first set, but it seemed like a basic three set match from the reports. She was down in the second to Zvonoreva? I'm not sure that that meant anything bad. VZ had beaten her before on clay in 3 sets while injured. A rusty V beat a sharp VZ in two sets on clay. She lost the first set to the same 32 year who was two points away from def. the #1 player in the world two weeks ago. It seems that you are more pessimistic than Volcana is optimistic.

When it comes to Venus right now, the glass is definitely half-full.:)

joao
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Does anybody know why Venus has been skipping Rome those last few years?

Infiniti2001
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Well Venus really had been practicing very hard at the FCC starting with Sunday. She was out there for at least 3 hours. She was working on coming to the net and her forehand. I didn't think she was ever going to get her timing on her forehand returns to click. I was scared she was going to run out of steam because she was practicing so hard when she had matches. Thankfully, her return game came together and she didn't run out of energy. :)


Who was Vee's hitting partner??

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Who was Vee's hitting partner??
She used one of the guys provided by the club I think but he was good and she kept him the entire week. He could serve very well and when Richard told him to serve it a particular way he could everytime...

That reminds me...I remember there was a discussion about who was a better coach...Oracene or Richard. Well I'm telling you Oracene does not coach tennis she manages their life maybe but Richard was coaching. I mean he was telling Venus what to work on how much to work on it. What combination shots to work on, etc. When Oracene was here. She sat on the bench and talked to the trainer the whole time while Serena did her thing. Oracene does not discuss tennis techniques. I talked to my friends that I hung out with all week and they said that's what all the practices was like with Oracene. I'm just happy Richard is working with them more now....I think Oracene is important but I think their tennis needs Richard right now..

ys
Apr 19th, 2004, 07:13 PM
Steffilover,
She was down in the second to Zvonoreva? I'm not sure that that meant anything bad. VZ had beaten her before on clay in 3 sets while injured. A rusty V beat a sharp VZ in two sets on clay.
I would not put it that way. First of all.. If you call it "rusty".. Playing 4 events this year takes out that "rusty" tag for good. Second.. We all know that green clay is not VZ's cup of tea. She has never done anything its. She loves red stuff, but she is uncomfortable on green clay - especially against a hitter like Venus who doesn't use much of topspin even on green clay. On red clay, when the same very shots of VW will bounce a tad higher - i.e. , right into VZs strikezone ( which is extemely important for her with her extreme Western grip - she is naturally uncomfortable with anything that stays low ), then we talk.

I'd say, that Venus played very well in this tournament. But how it translates into her red clay form remains to be seen. But already now I would put her as #1 favourite for Wimbledon, given that her sister is kinda doubtful..

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 07:26 PM
That's cool that you got to see Venus practice! Lucky, lucky. I've seen Venus play at Stanford, San Diego, the French and Australian Opens and I've never once seen her practice (other than the warmup stuff they do right before playing). I did, however, see Serena practice at the French Open.
Well I stayed for like 2 and 1/4 of the three hours...;) but people told me who stayed to get autographs how long she stayed but yes. I saw her practice on Sunday and Monday. Her first match was tuesday. This was the first and only time I got to see Venus so it was all gravy for me. :)

servenrichie
Apr 19th, 2004, 07:30 PM
She used one of the guys provided by the club I think but he was good and she kept him the entire week. He could serve very well and when Richard told him to serve it a particular way he could everytime...

That reminds me...I remember there was a discussion about who was a better coach...Oracene or Richard. Well I'm telling you Oracene does not coach tennis she manages their life maybe but Richard was coaching. I mean he was telling Venus what to work on how much to work on it. What combination shots to work on, etc. When Oracene was here. She sat on the bench and talked to the trainer the whole time while Serena did her thing. Oracene does not discuss tennis techniques. I talked to my friends that I hung out with all week and they said that's what all the practices was like with Oracene. I'm just happy Richard is working with them more now....I think Oracene is important but I think their tennis needs Richard right now..Thats what I have always thought. Thanks:wavey:

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:31 PM
Does anybody know why Venus has been skipping Rome those last few years?
My first guess would be Serena playing it.

i have to say i think volcana's review was very optimistic. she almost lost to samantha reeves(!?), was down in the second to zvonareva and dropped the first set 6-2 in the final to a 32 yr old has-been (or never was!). back in martinez' prime, seles and graf were eating her alive 1 and 1, even on clay. venus had a very lucky tournament.:wavey:
If you're in the top ten all time in matches won, have five Fed Cup titles and are an ex-Wimbledon champ and you're a 'never was', let's see what that leaves us among active players.

Monica
Serena
Venus
Lindsay
Jenn
Justine
Mary P

Iva would, of course, also be a 'never was', being far less accomplished a player.

That's a pretty damn small tour.

It's also possible you're just a pretty damn poor judge of what constitutes accomplishment in tennis.

steffilover
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:47 PM
Volcana, my favourite player is steffi graf...i know ALL there is to know about accomplishments in tennis.:worship:

Serendy Willick
Apr 19th, 2004, 08:54 PM
I am sooooo fucking tired of this "Give Serena variety and she will lose on clay" bullish. Serena has no fear and no problem beating the top Clay court players. She proved this last year and two years ago.

CJ07
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Does anybody know why Venus has been skipping Rome those last few years?
1. 2003 + 2002=injured
2. 2004= Davide lives there :tape:

bandabou
Apr 19th, 2004, 09:56 PM
1. 2003 + 2002=injured
2. 2004= Davide lives there :tape:

DAANNNGGG!!! :lol: :rolls:

bandabou
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:01 PM
I am sooooo fucking tired of this "Give Serena variety and she will lose on clay" bullish. Serena has no fear and no problem beating the top Clay court players. She proved this last year and two years ago.

Exactly....for all that talk all recent losses on that stuff were matches she could have won or was in them: against Momo at Rome, she was always ahead and against Justine she may well have won, wasn´t it for.....

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:19 PM
I am sooooo fucking tired of this "Give Serena variety and she will lose on clay" bullish. Serena has no fear and no problem beating the top Clay court players. She proved this last year and two years ago.Actually, the last time she played a top clay courter, on clay, who gave her variety, she lost. To me, that sounds like a problem. Or at least more than no problem.

Serena fans are so sensitive! Why can't you be more like us laid-back Venus fans?:)

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:28 PM
She used one of the guys provided by the club I think but he was good and she kept him the entire week. He could serve very well and when Richard told him to serve it a particular way he could everytime...

That reminds me...I remember there was a discussion about who was a better coach...Oracene or Richard. Well I'm telling you Oracene does not coach tennis she manages their life maybe but Richard was coaching. I mean he was telling Venus what to work on how much to work on it. What combination shots to work on, etc. When Oracene was here. She sat on the bench and talked to the trainer the whole time while Serena did her thing. Oracene does not discuss tennis techniques. I talked to my friends that I hung out with all week and they said that's what all the practices was like with Oracene. I'm just happy Richard is working with them more now....I think Oracene is important but I think their tennis needs Richard right now..
Although I've never seen them in practice with her, I've seen the tape Tennis Aces with Richard and I've always thought that Richard was more the technical coach. I think Oracene knows techniques, like anyone would who's been around the sport as long as she has, but I think Richard is the REAL coach.

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:35 PM
I am sooooo fucking tired of this "Give Serena variety and she will lose on clay" bullish. Serena has no fear and no problem beating the top Clay court players. She proved this last year and two years ago.
Isn't it a stupid assumption? For someone to be so poor on clay or to have such trouble on clay with variety, why is it she won Rome and RG '02 and made it to the semis of RG '03? :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:38 PM
I would not put it that way. First of all.. If you call it "rusty".. Playing 4 events this year takes out that "rusty" tag for good. Second.. We all know that green clay is not VZ's cup of tea. She has never done anything its. She loves red stuff, but she is uncomfortable on green clay - especially against a hitter like Venus who doesn't use much of topspin even on green clay. On red clay, when the same very shots of VW will bounce a tad higher - i.e. , right into VZs strikezone ( which is extemely important for her with her extreme Western grip - she is naturally uncomfortable with anything that stays low ), then we talk.

I'd say, that Venus played very well in this tournament. But how it translates into her red clay form remains to be seen. But already now I would put her as #1 favourite for Wimbledon, given that her sister is kinda doubtful..
ys, no offense but why is it that you seem to always never make any sense and talk completely out of your ass? :dance:

Rocketta
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:40 PM
thanks Roc- I was one who said that Oracene is NOT a coach... Venus always does better when Richard is at a tournament. I always remember her saying that she asked Serena who she wanted to go to Wimbledon the first year they both made the finals...mom or dad? Serena has also said that when mom is there, they go out and do more shopping etc... one problem is, Richard sdoesn't like flying all that much and that's why he often doesnt' make the European tour..he goes to England, so i never understand why he doesn't make the others but i really hope that they all reconsider. PErhaps now that Oracene is taking a primary role in raising Yetunde's young kids, she won't travel as much.
Yes lets hope Richard decides to spend more time on the airplanes...:hehehe:

DeDe4925
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:44 PM
Actually, the last time she played a top clay courter, on clay, who gave her variety she lost. To me, that sounds like a problem. Or at least more than no problem.

Serena fans are so sensitive! Why can't you be more like us laid-back Venus fans?:)
Yep that's true. However she was ahead in the match and then that clay courter came up with some gamesmanship to mess with her head. Kind of reminiscent of a Peppermint Patty. Hope she's learned her lesson that not everyone is fair and just, and to just play on and not allow crap like that bother her. Hopefully that "problem" has been overcome, the rest is gravy.

Pureracket
Apr 19th, 2004, 10:46 PM
Serena doesn't seem to remember that match, and neither do I.

Nan Cu
Apr 19th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Volcana, my favourite player is steffi graf...i know ALL there is to know about accomplishments in tennis.
It's easy to recognize accomplishment when it comes to Steffi Graf. It takes more brain cells to acknowledge Conchi achievements.

steffilover
Apr 19th, 2004, 11:46 PM
It's easy to recognize accomplishment when it comes to Steffi Graf. It takes more brain cells to acknowledge Conchi achievements.It certainly takes more time and a great deal more belief!!!:devil:

ys
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:21 AM
ys, no offense but why is it that you seem to always never make any sense and talk completely out of your ass? :dance:That is only because your concept of sense and mine are located in different dimensions. It is like writing makes no sense for tribemen, because they think no one needs it, they can always say what they want to each other. :p

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:52 AM
That is only because your concept of sense and mine are located in different dimensions.
Yep, yours is the lower dimensions and mine are the higher dimensions. :p
It is like writing makes no sense for tribemen, because they think no one needs it, they can always say what they want to each other. :p :cuckoo:

SerialKiller#69
Apr 20th, 2004, 01:54 AM
ys, no offense but why is it that you seem to always never make any sense and talk completely out of your ass? :dance:
Errr he makes perfect sense actually. :dance:

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:14 AM
Errr he makes perfect sense actually. :dance:
I can understand why it would make perfect sense to you, which unfortunately lessens his credibility even more.

Ballbuster
Apr 20th, 2004, 02:34 AM
Demond

ys pretty much equated your intelligence with that of a caveman's.

You going to take that?

Get Her!

Volcana
Apr 20th, 2004, 03:32 AM
Volcana, my favourite player is steffi graf...i know ALL there is to know about accomplishments in tennis.:worship:And I believe the record for total slam titles is 63. Second is 56. I forget which one of those was Steffi. Must have been 63. After all, Steffi won more GS titles than anyone else, right? And more Fed Cup titles. And more Olympic titles. I mean, all you have to know is Steffi to know all about accomplishment in tennis, right? She IS the most accomplished player of all time. Isn't she? And no one kicked the living shit out of her for two years, right?

Exactly how good WAS this obscure Monica Seles person anyway?

I'm confused.

DeDe4925
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:07 AM
Demond

ys pretty much equated your intelligence with that of a caveman's.

You going to take that?

Get Her!
I'm not worried about it. He can't even spell tribesmen.

Nobody's Perfecc
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:11 AM
And I believe the record for total slam titles is 63. Second is 56. I forget which one of those was Steffi. Must have been 63. After all, Steffi won more GS titles than anyone else, right? And more Fed Cup titles. And more Olympic titles. I mean, all you have to know is Steffi to know all about accomplishment in tennis, right? She IS the most accomplished player of all time. Isn't she? And no one kicked the living shit out of her for two years, right?

Exactly how good WAS this obscure Monica Seles person anyway?

I'm confused.
Though you do have your points, Monica Seles hardly "kicked the living shit" out of Steffi. Even before the stabbing, Stefi was leading the head to head. The 92 FO and 93 AO finals were both close matches, while I seem to remember the Wimbledon finals score as a bit one sided. But I don't want to derail this thread. Carry on. :)

Oh, and I agree with your analysis of Venus, especially with your point about Venus wanting to be a better player instead of a winning player. Serena should try to be like her big sister. :D

topspin
Apr 20th, 2004, 05:33 AM
Well Venus really had been practicing very hard at the FCC starting with Sunday. She was out there for at least 3 hours. She was working on coming to the net and her forehand. I didn't think she was ever going to get her timing on her forehand returns to click. I was scared she was going to run out of steam because she was practicing so hard when she had matches. Thankfully, her return game came together and she didn't run out of energy. :)
Great post, volcano!

rocketta, thanks for the insight report. It's great to hear and to visualize the hunger, the desire, and the focus Venus seems to have now.

As that article said "If only she wants it! Venus Williams can become the Pete Sampras of women's tennis if she wants."

Your report is a sign she really wants it.

Chance
Apr 20th, 2004, 08:41 AM
Rocketta, thanks for the recap.