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SerenasMelons
Feb 22nd, 2002, 04:26 PM
Russians challenge figure skating results, seek gold for Slutskaya

By LARRY SIDDONS
AP Sports Writer
February 22, 2002

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Russian officials filed a formal protest of the women's Olympic figure skating final, saying silver medalist Irina Slutskaya should get her own gold medal because of biased judging.

The protest was signed by Russian Figure Skating Federation president Valentin Piseyev and sent to the referee of Thursday night's long program after 16-year-old American Sarah Hughes won the gold.

It singled out the judging that gave Hughes the win after she placed fourth in the earlier short program. Slutskaya finished second and American Michelle Kwan took the bronze.

``We filed the protest last night because we think the judging was biased,'' the head of the Russian delegation in Salt Lake City, Viktor Mamatov, told The Associated Press on Friday. ``Canadian pairs skaters were awarded their gold medals. Now that subjective judging harmed us, we want the same for Slutskaya.''

Last week, Canadian pairs skaters Jamie Sale and David Pelletier were given their own gold medal after the ISU found there had been misconduct by a judge. Russians Anton Sikharulidze and Elena Berezhnaya finished first after the competition.

Asked whether he thinks Slutskaya will be awarded a gold medal, Mamatov said: ``Right now, I don't think anything. We'll wait for the protest to be evaluated, then we'll see.''

Ottavio Cinquanta, president of the International Skating Union, said he was aware of the protest.

``For us, this is not so important,'' said Cinquanta, whose organization is investigating the pairs judging.

For folks in Hughes' hometown, the latest protest was maddening.

``That's just sour grapes,'' said Dan Tomaselli, a high school music teacher in Great Neck, N.Y. ``The Russians, of all people, should keep their mouths shut.''

Mamatov refused to speculate whether the new controversy would prompt the Russians to leave before the end of the games. Russian officials first threatened to walk out Thursday, citing favoritism and unfair treatment from Olympic officials and judges.

``If decisions are not made and issues we raised not resolved, the Russian team will not play hockey, will not run 30 kilometers, will look very negatively on other factors,'' Russian Olympic Committee president Leonid Tyagachev said Thursday.

He said a high number of Russian athletes had been picked for drug tests and referred to an unspecified ruling by a goal judge in ice hockey.

``I think we are seeing a witch hunt,'' he said.

Russian anger boiled over after nine-time Olympic medalist Larissa Lazutina was disqualified from the 20-kilometer cross-country relay following a blood test.

A short time later, South Korea said it might boycott Sunday's closing ceremony over a judge's decision that gave a short-track speedskating gold to American Apolo Anton Ohno.

The latest Russian protest came only hours before the Russian men's hockey team faced the United States in a semifinal on the 22nd anniversary of the Americans' stirring victory over the Soviet Union at Lake Placid, N.Y.

After meeting with Tyagachev on Thursday, International Olympic Committee president Jacques Rogge sent a letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin to assure him the games were fair and that his nation's anger was understood.

``President Rogge wrote to express sympathy, to say he has been in contact with the sports federation and that the decisions are absolutely correct,'' IOC director general Francois Carrard said.

Putin said there was bias at the games but indicated that Russia won't walk out.

``North American athletes receive a clear advantage,'' Putin told journalists at the Kremlin. ``Let us see how the Olympic Games end. Let us hope that the IOC leadership will manage to solve these difficulties.''

However, the lower house of Russia's parliament passed a resolution 417-0 calling on Russian athletes to boycott the closing ceremony unless the IOC reruns the cross-country race, bars North American referees from the hockey game and apologizes to the Russian Olympic team.

Tyagachev said he told Rogge his nation was ``greatly unappreciated'' in the Olympics.

South Korea unsuccessfully protested an ISU referee's decision Wednesday night that gave the 1,500 meter short-track gold to Ohno. He finished second to a South Korean skater but got the gold when the Korean was ruled to have interfered on the final lap.

``We can take various measures, including not participating during the closing ceremony,'' said Park Sung-in, head of South Korea's Olympic team.

With just three days before the closing ceremony, IOC leaders met Thursday night to discuss the issues.

Rogge spoke with the presidents of skating, skiing and hockey ``and was reassured that their judges are acting in accordance with the rules,'' IOC vice president Kevan Gosper said.

Lazutina was disqualified because of high levels of hemoglobin, a move that knocked four-time defending champion Russia out of the event. Tyagachev said that while the skier's hemoglobin count was just above the legal limit, she was not guilty of doping.

``We are clean,'' he said. ``We have nothing to hide.''

A urine test on Lazutina will determine whether her case will be considered a drug positive. Results were expected Friday. Lazutina, who already has won two silvers at these games, is scheduled to compete in the 30-kilometer race Sunday.

On Thursday, Tyagachev said there was a 24-hour window to address the situation, and that if Russia left Salt Lake City it probably would not compete in Athens in the next Summer Games. ``Once you leave, it is not easy to come back in,'' he said.

Later, Vitaly Smirnov, an IOC vice president from Russia, tempered Tyagachev's remarks, saying there was no ultimatum.

Tyagachev was upset by more than the Lazutina case. He made repeated references to the figure skating judging dispute.

``This was a new decision that was practically unprecedented,'' he said. ``We went along with the decision and tried to look at it objectively. ... But we have only so much patience.''

___________________________________________

What's going on at these OLYMPICS?!?!?!? I think Sale and Pelltier opened up a can of worms

TheBoiledEgg
Feb 22nd, 2002, 04:47 PM
I told you so ..... this is never gonna end I said it was only the beginning.

UNbiased reports are on the BBC .... well less biased ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/winterolympics2002/default.stm

Crazy Canuck
Feb 22nd, 2002, 04:47 PM
Oh PUH-LEASE - spare me the "its Salle and Pelletier's fault!" claims :rolleyes:
All they did was protest what appeared to be fishy. Its not their fault they were awarded more golds.
Blame the skating organization and the IOC- Dont' blame them.
Sheesh :rolleyes:


"Canadian pairs skaters were awarded their gold medals. Now that subjective judging harmed us, we want the same for Slutskaya."

Its only fair. I can see arguement that Irina should have won the short program, in which case she would have won gold. If the Canadian pair got to protest, I don't see anything wrong with them doing it here. Maybe I'd feel the same if I were her.
Lets be honest - going into this who though Irina would win Gold if she skated 100% and none of the other girls fell?


"``That's just sour grapes,'' said Dan Tomaselli, a high school music teacher in Great Neck, N.Y. ``The Russians, of all people, should keep their mouths shut.'' "

Well its nice to hear that no one is being ignorant about this
:rolleyes: how would he like it if a Russian representitive started rattling off about how Americans should keep their mouths shut?
Hell I'm not American, but it bugs the piss out of me when ys does it.

TheBoiledEgg
Feb 22nd, 2002, 04:52 PM
No one else is brave enough to stand up to the Bullies (US)

Bush would probably nuke them

Crazy Canuck
Feb 22nd, 2002, 05:02 PM
lol.....sigh - Bush is a tool :rolleyes:

It scares me to think a man of less than average intelligence commands that much power....

angele87
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:17 PM
I found this quote:
Russian spokesman Rudolf Nezvegsky told Reuters his team felt Slutskaya skated as well, if not better, than American gold medallist Sarah Hughes in the free program.

You can find the whole article @ http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020222/ts_nm/olympics_russia_dc_18

Personally, I don't think Irina skated as well as Sarah last night... and don't call me biased because I'm North American, I'm a huge Irina fan... I was sad that she didn't win but come on, she didn't skate as well as Sarah... anybody disagree?

rated_next
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:25 PM
There is so much crap that has happened already and they all seem to favor the Americans and the Canadians.

1. - Anton and Elena won, and then they have to share the gold medal.

2. - Irina should have won the short program, if not the long -- and Maria should've been ahead of Sarah after the short.

3. - Team Russia couldn't compete in cross country relay, since they disqualified one of their teammates too late, so they couldn't find a replacement.

4. - The Koream short track skater disqualified. Guess what - An American wins the gold, and a Canadian the bronze.

5. - The ice dance team of lithuania skate perfect - they come behind two teams who fall.

and the list goes on...

rated_next
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:30 PM
and they only seem to drug test the russians

Crazy Canuck
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:31 PM
Blam the people in charge - not the countries being favoured.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:32 PM
They only seem to drup test the Russians?
No - we only know about it for the one that tested positive.

Where the heck did you get that from?

angele87
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by rated_next
There is so much crap that has happened already and they all seem to favor the Americans and the Canadians.

1. - Anton and Elena won, and then they have to share the gold medal.

2. - Irina should have won the short program, if not the long -- and Maria should've been ahead of Sarah after the short.

3. - Team Russia couldn't compete in cross country relay, since they disqualified one of their teammates too late, so they couldn't find a replacement.

4. - The Koream short track skater disqualified. Guess what - An American wins the gold, and a Canadian the bronze.

5. - The ice dance team of lithuania skate perfect - they come behind two teams who fall.

and the list goes on...

There are some things I agree with you on but some not so much. The decision to award two gold medals in pairs was the right thing to do.

For figure skating, personally I thought Sasha should of won the SP and then between Irina and Michelle, I thought it was too close to call... Sarah most definetly won the long program though.

Cross country i won't comment cuz i don't know the whole story.

For short track, I'm not really too aware of the rules so when I was watching I couldn't believe the korean guy was DQ but then afterwards, somebody read the description of cross tracking from the rule book and then showed when the korean guy cross tracked and it was fairly obvious that he did do that.

For ice dance, I completely 100% agree with you!! I am a big fan of the canadians but I thought that the lithuanian(sp) team should of won the bronze! It seemed like an obvious decision and I was really shocked that they didn't get bronze!

angele87
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by rated_next
and they only seem to drug test the russians

Do you have a link to an article or a webpage or something where it lists all the athletes that have been tested?? I'm just wondering because I keep hearing that over and over about how they only seem to test russians!! Thanx in advance!

wongqks
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:49 PM
the statement on only tetsing russian is ridiculous LOL, and I agree with becca for that.

Sarah won it fair and square, she has the best program last night and she is the only one to land two triple triple on the night and have no mistake. Irina is a very close second, personally, I think Irina skate as well as sarah, but if I was the judge, I will give Sarah the edge because it stand out a little bit more. Yes, Sarah is lucky to win, and it is because and only because Michelle skate badly (moving Michelle behind irian and thereby handing her the gold). And the judging for this is the fairest out of all 4 ice skating contest. (although I have not seen the short program, which people talk about)

Having said all that, I understand why russian do the protest, they want to do it to show the ridiculous incidents which seems to against them, the cross country, the gold sharing, the apparent refereeing in hockey etc. I doubt they do it because they feel that the competition was unfair, so... this will go on and on. It definitely brings a lot of buzz into it, but it is very negative. I truly hope that it will not go into a political debate, coz that will just be plain stupid.

AjdeNate!
Feb 22nd, 2002, 06:51 PM
Let's just give every athlete Gold medals to end any debate, aye?

Dado
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:05 PM
But Slutskaya was really better. She's the golden girl. That Hughes is an american helped her.

Barrie_Dude
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:20 PM
I'm Glad To Be Canadian!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

the cat
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:23 PM
Thank God the Olympics are almost over. The bad feelings that have come from Salt Lake City hurts my heart. I'm worn out by it all. And I'm glad that it's almost over.

Russia came very close to winning all four figure skating events. But won only 2. Or was it 1 and a half? I didn't think getting squeezed in the short program would hurt Irina that much. But once Sarah Hughes skated the best long program ever, the whole scenario for gold changed.

Becca, thanks for putting that idiotic Great Neck high school music teacher in his place. Being a Long Islander, I was appalled by his tasteless comments. And he's a teacher of all things. Not a hockey coach! I'd like to see him go into a Russian-American neighborhood and talk like that. And if Slutskaya had been properly placed as #1 in the short program, then Sarah Hughes likely would not have won the gold.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:28 PM
The pairs decision was overturned because of VOTING FRAUD.

Nothing has been proved in any other sport....except jealousy.

You can always have your what if's and all this, but the fact is, that to the best of our knowledge, Sarah won fair and square.

The judging was split evenly as well with ALL 4 top competitors getting ordinals from 1st to 4th (that included Sarah and Irinia receiving some 4th places as well).

ys
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:35 PM
the cat, almost same feelings. I always can't wait for Olympics. But when it comes to US of A, just like it was in Atlanta, they possess a wonderful ability to spoil any festivity, and now I can't wait for it to finish. I am almost nostalgically thinking about Sydney Olympics, with even all its scandals. But at least there was nothing of this ugly nationalistic hystery by the hosts.

Ryan
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:37 PM
The Russians are babies and we should let them withdraw from the Olympics. The IOC disqualifies any athlete who has an above average red blood cell count-not just Russians.

Irina missed a jump in her free skate, Sarah didnt. The south korean changed paths to block a pass by Apolo, your not allowed to do that and it causes a DQ.

There was a fraud in the judging in pairs, which everyone knows was initiated by the Russians. Why would the French federation pressure the French judge to vote for the Russians if the Russians didnt cut a deal with the french? And poor refereeing against Chech. Rep.????? The Russians are a bunch oh WHINERS and should shut their mouthes.

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:39 PM
Ys....you live in this "ugly nationalistic hystery" mess, so why don't you go?

Oh, I forgot....you are a hypocrite.

fresh2flash
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:43 PM
Ryan14, just grow up, kid...

TheBoiledEgg
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:43 PM
We're not complaining about the freeskate but the SP in which there was not the right decision.

Irina won the clearly.

These games should have been called the NBC Games.

Apolo wouldn't have won his appeal if he wasn't an American plus the other skater was only a "korean"

angele87
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by ys
the cat, almost same feelings. I always can't wait for Olympics. But when it comes to US of A, just like it was in Atlanta, they possess a wonderful ability to spoil any festivity, and now I can't wait for it to finish. I am almost nostalgically thinking about Sydney Olympics, with even all its scandals. But at least there was nothing of this ugly nationalistic hystery by the hosts.

If you hate these Olympics so much, STOP WATCHING THEM!! I seriously doubt somebody has a gun to your head forcing you to watch. I know when there's something on tv that i don't like, I just turn it off... or is that concept too hard for you to understand??

Monica_Rules
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:47 PM
I'm sorry but this is a farce if the Russian Judge gave Hughes such high markes and the american judge gave hughes average makes why are they saying its biased did the judges know that Sarah would skate a great programme in the free NOOOOOO!


This is just taking complaining to a new level!

Next the swiss will say that britains last stone doesn't count!:rolleyes:

angele87
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by TheBoiledEgg
Apolo wouldn't have won his appeal if he wasn't an American plus the other skater was only a "korean"

I know nothing of speed skating so maybe this comment is totally out of line but the description of cross tracking in the rule book for speed skating matches what the korean skater did.

griffin
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:49 PM
"ugly nationalistic hysteria"?

Oh, honey, what's Russian for "pot calls kettle black"?

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:50 PM
Ohno did not protest. There are always a few minutes until the "official" results are posted as there are MANY DQ's in short track.....decisions made by the referee's with no player input.

silvercharm
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:51 PM
has that Russian judge suffered frostbite to the brain from being in Siberia too long??? Hughes was clearly better last night than all--and if not for that tiny mistake Sasha made she clearly would've beat Irina as well--who skated timid and without fire imo

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 22nd, 2002, 07:52 PM
LOL griffin ;)

ys
Feb 22nd, 2002, 08:00 PM
In addition to the fact that Butyrskaya should have been 4th in short and Hughes #5. That would have made Irina champion too.

Butyrskaya had 3 third places and 1 4th place in short program, while Hughes had 3 4th places. Yet by a virtue of mathematical trick they put Hughes 4th. Even that Hughes places total was 48 to Butyrskaya 45.

fresh2flash
Feb 22nd, 2002, 08:01 PM
I am disputing the LP scores :). Sarah`s program wasn`t at all flawless. I just saw it the 2nd time. Both her cascades were not totally clean.

the cat
Feb 23rd, 2002, 02:04 PM
Ryan, I like your enthusiasm and eagerness. But you have alot to learn. So the Russians were going to favor the French team in Ice Dancing? That's pretty funny! Especially when you consider that Russia had an Ice Dance team worthy of the gold medal. The Russian team lost 5-4. So they ended up with silver. I don't think the Russian judge would short change the Russian Ice Dance team to benefit the French Ice Dance team. But that's what you were implying.

VSF, why should ys leave America just because he doesn't see things your way? The last time I looked, this was a free country.

Eggy, the NBC games? Very funny! Unfortunately it's very true.
NbC's promo before the Olympics about how Sale and Pellettier were trying to end the Russian Pairs dynasty and bring the gold home to "North America" was ridiculous. Actually that promo was an indication of how badly the Russians were going to be treated in Salt Lake City.

ys, i agree with you about the short program. Both Irina and Maria got squeezed. I didn't even remember that Sarah had 3 fourth place votes, while Maria only had one. Remember, the women's figure skating was the only one of the 4 figure skating events where America could win a gold medal. Irina against Michelle, Sarah and Sasha? The odds were against her. And it showed in the short program.

Crazy Canuck
Feb 23rd, 2002, 02:36 PM
Could someone please detail to me how Russia has been mistreated anymore than anyone else these whole games?
I'm not being a smart ass- I just really don't get it.

This is what I see -

1 - The pairs skating scandal. At the time the ISU had an admission of wrong doing on behalf of a judge. Who has made up a new story everytime she is inerviewed. Something was clearly fuzzy with her. So they tried to right a wrong. Many were offended by this, but its not like they did it out of the blue, jsut cause they don't like Russia :confused:

2 - The cross country skier was positive for doping. Further tests will be ran to determine if that was correct. They told the team too late and they couldnt get a replacement. They were wrong for doing this. But what makes people think, once again - its cause they hate Russia? Itwas an obvious mistake - but how can one assume it was out of hate?

3 - Hockey reffing. It really wasn't that bad. From what I hear and saw, the Canadian women, and German men got it much worse than the Russian team did. And you don't see them threateinto pull out or not show up to the closing ceremonies do you?
I don't assume the ref was calling stuff against the Canadian women cause she hates us - I just assumed she didn't know what the heck she was doing.

4 - They took too much blood from some guy? I don't know the details about that.


But aren't we going to far to say its cause everyone hates Russia? If the Russan media wants to create an " us against the world" attitude, ala Gretsky, thats their choice.

But I think its going overboard.

There are two sides to every story, and turning around and saying that every close call is happening cause the world hates Russia, is silly, for lack of a better word. Paranoid might be better.

Lola
Feb 23rd, 2002, 02:38 PM
Once again: 5 1st places for Sarah
4 1st places for Irina

NO COMMENT! IRINA, THE REAL CHAMPION!!!

angele87
Feb 23rd, 2002, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by the cat


Eggy, the NBC games? Very funny! Unfortunately it's very true.
NbC's promo before the Olympics about how Sale and Pellettier were trying to end the Russian Pairs dynasty and bring the gold home to "North America" was ridiculous. Actually that promo was an indication of how badly the Russians were going to be treated in Salt Lake City.

the cat, I think you're losing it. Of course NBC is going to promote a North American couple because they are makerting to a North American audience, not because they were planning in advance to mistreat the russians in salt lake. I'm sure that if the games were in Russia that Russian t.v networks would promote russian couples, not north americans right???

Shane54
Feb 23rd, 2002, 07:29 PM
We could sit here all night debating this and that on figure skating. The fact is yes there would be controversy if Sarah skate poorly and still won. BUT THE FACT is, Slutskaya did not skate her best and Sarah did simple as that. This unlike in the pairs competition.

You know the Russians have been spouting off at the mouth all week about Jamie and David to "stop whining". Well guess what it all has come back to smack the Russians in the face.
Personally, I believe what goes around comes around. And Russia is getting payback for all the "shady" scoring etc from the past. For example, womens gymnastics, mens basketball. I guarantee that the Russians did not complain in 1972 when they like what is it? 4 or 5 chances to make that last basket to win gold in mens BB. Did the US boycott the 76 games? NO.

I say let them boycott. We had a marvelous 1984 in Los Angeles. Carl Lewis, and of course Mary Lou!

Now, who has the sour grapes?

I LOVE YOU USA !! RED WHITE AND BLUE ALL THE WAY!!
ROCK ON USA!!!

Congrats to Sarah! and the US MENS HOCKEY TEAM!!!!!

SerenasMelons
Feb 23rd, 2002, 08:00 PM
For people who are saying that NBC has been biased toward North Americans, they are right. But there is nothing wrong with this. They're trying to sell to Americans, so of course they're gonna promote American athletes. I think someone else mentioned this too.

The only time I think the Russians were treated unfairly was over that cross country skiing thing. A 5 time olympic gold medalist does not need doping to win. It probably was due to her PMS as they claimed. But the disqualification of her wasn't because she was Russian.

and Becca, in the post where I said "looks like Sale and Pelltier opened up a can of worms", i didn't mean to say its their fault that all of this "duplicate gold" challenges have arosed. I just meant that because of the decision (correct one, IMO) to award Sale and Pelltier the gold, its set a precedent, and people want to take advantage of it.

GoDominiqu
Feb 23rd, 2002, 08:17 PM
So why didn't Russia complain right after the short program ? Or did they ?

Because it looks strange when you only protest because of missing the gold medal closely.

harloo
Feb 23rd, 2002, 08:21 PM
Sarah won the gold fair and square. The rules were whoever won the long program won the gold. Geesh, does the Russians think they should win everything?

Now as far as the Pairs competition, it's such a shame that Russia would go as far as trying to fix the judging to win. I agree with the ruling, and the Russian pair should of lost their gold in my opinion. Anyone and that means ANYONE who cheats should be disqualified from the Olympics.

Also if you are found with illegal drugs in your system you should be banned from the sport for life and that's everyone. I don't care what country you are from, or how you feel you are being wronged. FOLLOW THE RULES, and you won't have this problem.

As far as the referee's in the hockey games, sorry referee's make calls based on the rules. Maybe you don't agree with the calls, and I don't agree with them all the time,but they are trying their best to follow the rules. And, not everyone will be happy with the outcome.

As far as the speed skating, PLAIN AND SIMPLE if you break a rule you suffer the consequences. There is no need to get upset with the decision, just play fairly and you won't have any problems.

As far as all these anti-American sentiments, whatever. I for one resent all the negative comments. Please be mature and focus on the issue at hand, their are judges from all around the world who are participating so your hatred and disdain for Americans is you own separate issue which has nothing to do with the judging.

If the Russians do decide to walk out then it would be their loss, and if they never participate in the Olympics again it would be a shame but their bad decision. In the pair skating incident the evidence was clear, however all these other cases are based on fabrication. It's unfortunate that the Russians would take this route instead of owning up to their mistake of attempting to fix competition. Hey, if they don't participate the world will go on.

Vanity
Feb 23rd, 2002, 08:27 PM
:rolleyes:

angele87
Feb 23rd, 2002, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by VivalaSeles

Let me repeat for the eleventh time ... the incorrect scoring occured during the SHORT PROGRAMME where Slutskaya was uncorrectly put behind Kwan when judges failed to make the required technical deductions for Kwan under-rotating the triple flip.

I found this :

Russian spokesman Rudolf Nezvegsky told Reuters his team felt Slutskaya skated as well, if not better, than American gold medallist Sarah Hughes in the free program.

You can read the whole article @ http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020222/ts_nm/olympics_russia_dc_18

angele87
Feb 23rd, 2002, 08:40 PM
Personally, I think the russian federation is just looking for attention... i mean they're pathetic... threatening to pull out of the games if they weren't dealt with within 24 hours is really an immature thing to do. A lot of russian people blasted the Canadians for asking for first off an investagation then when the whole thing with the french judge was discovered a second gold medal but let me remind all those people that Canada never threatened to pull out of of boycott the olympics and only asked for a second gold medal AFTER it was discovered the french judge's vote wasn't acceptable where as the russian federation is saying Irina was better than Sarah, give her a gold which i think is totally unfair to Sarah... and personally, i think the games would be better without the russian federation if all they're going to do is whine and go on little power trips.

angele87
Feb 23rd, 2002, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by VivalaSeles
Angele. I am not a Russian official. I express but my opinion. And I am consistent. You can read every line I have written about the ladies competition and you'll see the same:

a. I don't think the Russians have a case on the long programme.
b. I think they have a CLEAR case in the short programme.

I know, I'm just saying that the protest that was made to the ISU (or was it the IOC) was about the long program and not the short.

angele87
Feb 23rd, 2002, 09:07 PM
Yeah I pretty much agree with you VivalaSeles... Sarah definetly won the long program... as far as the short I thought Sasha Cohen had the best but between Irina and Michelle, I thought it was close...

For the cross country skiing I don't agree with the rule that you can replace a team member if he or she failed a blood or drug test but since the rule does exist, I agree, the team should of been given time to find a replacement. And I too think they do have reason to complain but, like you, i think boycotting isn't a very good think to threaten to do right now because they have proof for all these things... if it was proven that there was something wrong with the judges and that there was no reason why they weren't aloud to find a replacement for the skiier and nothing was being done about either situation, then it would be ok, not really ok but more acceptable, to threaten to boycott.

Shane54
Feb 23rd, 2002, 09:51 PM
Well, like I said no matter what..there will be arguments on both sides..Everyone believes they are right...But ultimately you cant satisfy everyone all the time....It is nice to know that womens tennis is not the only topic of heated discussion. One could argue about the placements of short program, and Kwan, and Irina, Sarah...yadda yadda....but ultimately if Irina would have skated as well as Sarah the gold would have went to Irina. So ultimately, THAT IS the reason why she did not win the gold. The gold was in her control, but she didnt live up to the challenge....

Shane54
Feb 23rd, 2002, 09:59 PM
People are saying that the judges failed to take off any deductions for Kwan's short program. No, they did take off the deducts. I did not see any 6.0 or 5.9 for Kwan. I mostly saw 5.6's and 5.7's for a clean program. 6.0-5.7= 0.3 thus at least meeting the .2 deduction. The ultimate reason why Kwan won the short is her superior artistry. Face it, Irina looks like a cat walking on a fence out there sometimes.....

Just like the Russian people told the Canadians a week earlier, i say the same thing to them:
STOP WHINING AND CRYING AND ACCEPT YOUR DEFEAT

NO APOLOGIES!!!

Volcana
Feb 23rd, 2002, 10:29 PM
VivalaSeles, Egg - I didn't see the short program. Nonetheless, I was telling my S.O. last night that the only possible protest had to be the short program. Bearing in mind that I didn't see the short program, and have no axe to grind, could you answer a question or two for me.

Did the Russians protest the scoring of the short before the end of the long program?

I did not hear of any protest of the short program scoring, but I wasn't looking for it either.

Is there independent evidence of misconduct on the part of a short program judge?

In the case of the Canadians pairs team, the ISU had letters two separate witnesses to the judge saying she was presured to score the Russians first. She failed to report this. This was defined as misconduct, and her score was thrown out. After that, the ISU and IOC took the action that made the controversy go away as quickly as possible, since it was swallowing the Games. That is to say, they didn't say her scoring was WRONG. THey threw out her score because she was under pressure to be impartial and stated in public she might have been influenced by it.

I am perfectly willing to entertain an allegation of misconduct. If there was misconduct, that judges score should be thrown out. If that would then result in a tie, so be it. However, I oppose changing the rewarding of the medals without some independent evidence to justify it.

I don't expect the Russians to ever see satisfaction in this. The main problem is, in the case of the pairs, the team that the vast amjority of people percieved to have performed better was not originally awarded the gold. The media did not have to explain that there WAS an injustice.

In the Hughes/Slutskaya debate, the person who won the long program already has the gold medal. There's not going to be any groundswell of support for awarding Slutskaya the gold. She was the 2nd best skater the night of the long program. The public thinks 2nd is what she should have, and she does. The Olympics can draw a line here, and then avoid having to reconsider a hundred other things.

Judges may be stupid and blind. The Olympics tolerates that. Judges may be corrupt, too. The Olympics tolerated that for far too long. The skater who skated the best IN the competition actually WON the competition. THe fact that most people don't consider that the norm for figure skating tells you how far from legitemacy the sport is.

BTW, the American judge scored the long program Hughes 1st, Slutskaya 2nd, and Kwan 3rd. If he placed Kwan 2nd, Kwan would have won the gold medal.

ys
Feb 23rd, 2002, 10:46 PM
Of course, guys, protesting a long program is a sabotage of protesting, they should have protested the short, but it would require some amount of brain cells. But then, who says that Russian Olympic officials are smart? They are not, and perhaps, Olympics is also partly a competition in that field. They lost every single battle they should have won. It was completely in Russian officials grasp to avoid Sale/Pelletier second gold medal, Russian team ski default. They could have fared much better doing the smarter protests in figure skating. They should have thought beforehand that Canadian and American referees officiating the hockey semifinals will translate into some goal advantages for the North American teams ( come to think about that - what about the idea of Russian and Belorussian referees to be chosen to referee those matches - sounds pretty weird, huh? , but what's the difference ). I don't think that it would have changed the first semifinal outcome, but in the second semifinal where one lucky bounce marginally crossing the line and another unlucky bounce going across that line was all difference in the world, more "neutral" referee could mean different outcome, or not. It doesn't really matter now. The way the match was played, Russia could have won the match with unbiased refereeign, but it should have lost the match the way they played it for most of the time.

I liked this NY Times articles which tries to be objective, admits that Russians have valid reasons to think about unfairness in these Games, and pretty much sums up non-prejudiced American view of all that difficult Russian SLC experience:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/23/olympics/23ARAT.html

I quite liked this:



that's what happens when the cries for Olympic justice here in the Wild West come from no less a source than the Kremlin itself.

harloo
Feb 24th, 2002, 03:17 AM
Sorry, Vivaseles I still feel that Sarah was the best skater that night. It doesn't matter what happened in the short. Irina had the best chance since Michelle fell, she could of won that gold and she didn't step up. It's unfortunate that she lost, but she just lost. In the short, Michelle's artistry is what made the difference. Some of her scores were pretty low for the technical in the short. It all evened out, so I don't think Irina earned the gold at all. Like I said she could of won the gold, she had a chance and she let the newcomer take it.

In the pairs case, the corruption was so obvious it was almost laughable for the Russians to think they were mistreated. The fact remains that the French and Russian judges were in coohoots and this corruption was planned to win. It's such a shame and I don't care if it was an American judge, Russian judge, Korean judge, if they cheated then they should be removed. I just fail to see what the fuss about Irina losing the gold is a issue. She just lost it, just like Michelle lost.

angele87
Feb 24th, 2002, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by VivalaSeles
Why ? Don't you find it is EXTREMELY unfair to the other team members who have done nothing ? I have used this example: Ben Johnson. He was part of the Canadian's relay team. But, since he was found "doped", Canada arranged a replacement. Do you think the Canadian relay time shouldn't be allowed to run because of Ben Johnson's mistake ?


Well in fact I do think that Canada should have been DQ from the relay in 1988 because of ben johnson... it's really unforetunate for the athletes that did nothing but i think that still letting the team race in some way says that doping is ok, which it certainly isn't...

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Feb 24th, 2002, 03:52 AM
Russia goes home with their tales between their legs because of a VERY disappointing Olympics.....but try to parlay it onto officiating........what a joke!

GoSandrine
Feb 24th, 2002, 08:45 AM
VSFan1, I completely agree with you...the Russians are crybabies.

The Russian judge unbelievably placed Sarah Hughes fourth in the free skate and a measely tenth in the short program!!! :confused: If that's not biased judging I don't know what is. :rolleyes:

harloo
Feb 24th, 2002, 04:08 PM
VivaSeles, it's natural for people to attempt to find anything wrong with the correct results to attempt to shield the true factor of the Russian's federation's obvious corruption. Now every point factor comes into question, when obviously THE RULES FOR THE SHORT PROGRAM WERE ALREADY ESTABLISHED. Irina lost, and she had a chance to reedem herself in the long but she didn't. I say she had a better shot than Sara Hughes to win. I don't think the Olympic committee will give Irina a gold, their is no reason to.

And you say OH, nothing's been proven about the judges corruption in the pairs incident. Well why would the committee award another gold and supspend the judge in the case? It's obvious, and maybe you can't see that which is unfortunate. I can go back and forth with ya but what for? The proof is in the overrule.

I don't care who's cheating or making deals, you should be banned from the Olympics forever if you do that. Whether it be Americans, the French, Koreans, whoever and I stand behind that.

the cat
Feb 24th, 2002, 05:08 PM
GoDominique, you are right. Russia should have proested the ladies short program the next day. Not 2 days later.

ys, you are right. The Russian Olympic officials were asleep at the wheel the entore Olympics. Now whatever they do, it's too late. If they had proteseted the ladies short program when they should have, Irina Slutskaya might be wearing the gold medal today. They waited too long to protest. And it cost them. The Russian Olympic Federation needs to learn how to play politics 21st century style. They are still in the dark ages.

I am kind of relieved the Winter Olympics are ending today. These Olympics have been very emotionally draining. The 2004 summer Olympics are only about 2 and a half years away.

Ted of Teds Tennis
Feb 24th, 2002, 05:23 PM
Regarding the short program:

Nobody's pointed out that Sarah's ordinals were three 4ths, four 5ths, one sixth... and a TENTH from the Russian judge. The same Russian judge had Hughes 4th in the LP, when I don't think there's any way either Hughes or Slutskaya should have been voted fourth in the long. (Hughes got two fourths; Slutskaya one)

The same Russian judge put Cohen second in the LP, ahead of Kwan AND Hughes, and the Japanese skater (who ended up fifth with one 4th place ordinal and six 5ths) eighth. Finally, the Russian judge put Voltchkova, the third of the Russians, sixth in the LP; she got one other sixth (from the Finnish judge) and then nothing better than 9th.

IMO the Russian judge was no less biased than any of the other judges!

angele87
Feb 24th, 2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by VivalaSeles
Sorry, angele, but I don't understand your reasoning. I don't understand how a team composed of Julia Chepalova, Nina Gavriluk, Olga Danilova and another russian racer would mean that doping is ok. No one is saying Lazutina should be allowed to run. I am just saying the Russians should have been given time to find a replacement. So, I don't understand how allowing four clean, non-doped skaters to race means saying doping is ok.


It doesn't say that doping is ok... it's just, I dunno, it doesn't seem right. Like if the team would of found a replacement, they could of won gold so the situation would be that one of the team members failed a test but the team still came away with a gold medal... i dunno, to me something doesn't seem right with that... that's just my opinion though and i can understand that you don't agree with me!

harloo
Feb 24th, 2002, 05:46 PM
O.k um... why would I think a Russian Federation official would be posting on a tenis message board? whatever ya say VivaSeles.:rolleyes: :D .

No need to comment on the pairs incident, the olympic commitee handled that well. So their is no argument their.

Thanks ted of tennis for that analysis, I really didn't pay attention to that you are right on the money.

Yes, Vivaseles I mean um........ I did say that if anyone is cheating like the Russians did then they should be banned whether they be american or korean. So I don't see your point.

This argument can go on for weeks, but the fact remains that the Olympics are over and the cat I agree with ya. I am so glad. We've seen everything from corruptions to accusations and it's all pitiful.

The games are supposed to be about countries uniting and it has turned into a spectacle with the pairs incident igniting a clould over the best sporting event in the world. What a shame that this has happened.:sad:

harloo
Feb 24th, 2002, 06:14 PM
O.k.whatever ya say VivaSeles.:rolleyes: The American's cheated eveyone from winning.:rolleyes: :D :D :D :D :D :rolleyes:

ys
Feb 24th, 2002, 07:16 PM
Well, about Russian ski team - case closed. Lazutina passed the test, hence she is clean. To stop all talking about that I would suggest the following formula - very controversial technicality based on under-researched regulation prevented Russia from winning the relay. Lazutina's negative test proved that that shouldn't have happened.

GoSandrine
Feb 24th, 2002, 07:27 PM
Nuno, I don't think there's any disputing the fact that the judging system needs revision. I say add a couple more judges and throw out the two high and low scores. This would lessen the possibility of collusion.

As far as the ladies cometition goes, I think there's also no disputing the fact that Sarah Hughes is the deserved champion. The Russians need to do some serious housecleaning before they can point fingers. As I mentioned in my previous post, the Russian Federation's whining about the results of the ladies results is outrageous especially considering where they placed Sarah in both the long (4th) and short (10th) programs. PLLLLLEASE!!! :rolleyes:

Hurley
Feb 24th, 2002, 07:46 PM
Look, I mean, since figure skating is such a subjective sport, there is always a case for protests. But since the protest would be with the short program, it should have been made directly after the short program. I mean, hindsight of course is 20-20. Had Slutskaya won the gold medal, I'm sure nothing would ever have been said about the short program.

But Irina knew what she had to do...or should have. Perhaps she was ill-informed about how Hughes factored into the final decision...she did do enough to beat Kwan, but someone hadn't done the math all the way out to tell her that she had to outscore Hughes to win the gold. That is the fault of her coaches and advisors. So she was cautious, and didn't quite skate well enough. But that is her fault and her handlers' fault.

As for the way you all are going about it...you want either Slutskaya's short put ahead of Kwan's (for which there is a valid case) or Butyrskaya's ahead of Hughes' (for which there is not; Maria's short was quite poor IMO), and that is just grasping at straws. This whole "either way we can get it" underscores how desperate the attempt is.

The Russian Federation mishandled many things this Olympiad. The Lazutina incident was shameful, but the federation screwed up after the result came in. The Slutskaya protest came a round too late to hold any water. The hockey games...I honestly don't know what happened there.

But if they can get their act together they will come back in 2004 and 2006 much stronger, and I hope they do. I expect and hope for big medal hauls for the Russians the next times around! :D

ys
Feb 24th, 2002, 07:55 PM
As for the way you all are going about it...you want either Slutskaya's short put ahead of Kwan's (for which there is a valid case) or Butyrskaya's ahead of Hughes' (for which there is not; Maria's short was quite poor IMO)

Butyrskaya had 3 third places against none for Hughes in the short, and 45 as a total of places for the short vs 48 for Hughes. Her best placement was better than one of Hughes, her worls placement was also better than one of Hughes. Hughes was placed ahead of her by mere mathematical trick of current system.
So we have three question:

1) Was Sloutskaya better than Hughes in the long program?
2) Was Sloutskaya better than Kwan in the short program?
3) Was Butyrskaya better than Hughes in the short program?

All three pretty close calls, and if at least one of them went in favor of a Russian skater, Sloutskaya would have been a champion. My answers would be No, Yes and Yes. So it had to be admitted that it did take a string of very close decisions all going her way for Hughes to get a gold.

harloo
Feb 24th, 2002, 07:58 PM
Vivaseles, alright you have a point.:rolleyes: Since the dismissed members of the Olympic commitee took bribes, the new committee cheated and told all the American judges to cheat. Boy, how scandalous.:D :D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

Hurley
Feb 24th, 2002, 08:08 PM
Perhaps Maria had more third-places, but obviously, given that, if she still finished fifth, at least five of the other six judges put her beneath Hughes. That "mathematical trick" is called a majority decision. We use that often in federal republics and such. :p ;)

Again, I agree...a case could easily be made for Slutskaya winning the short program, over Kwan and Hughes (though not Cohen, IMO, and I still haven't done the math to see how giving Cohen first place in the short would have mixed things up).

But if there was a valid case for protest, it should have been made immediately after the short program. Instead, the Russian Federation, Slutskaya, and her handlers sat on their hands, all complacent with a second-place finish after the short. Now they protest, but it is far too late. Perhaps an early protest would have changed everything. It was a grievous error that cost her any chance at a gold.

Anyway, as for the chain of close decisions, perhaps Sarah beating Maria in the short favored Sarah (I totally agree with those placements, though), but any fudging of marks by the judges was strictly to favor Kwan.

I am positive that when the judges put in the final marks for Slutskaya at the end of the long program, they had absolutely NO IDEA that Hughes would come out victorious. I am sure that they were punching in numbers in order to get whichever of the Kwan-Slutskaya duo they preferred to come out on top. Do you agree?

ys
Feb 24th, 2002, 08:21 PM
I disagree, Hurley, I swear I knew it would end up like that after Hughes skated her long. I was telling everybody that Hughes will win, nobody believed me. I mean, that's an easy calculation. You have three Americans, you put them 1,3,4. And after all that a skater positioned #2 has to beat all three of them in the long. So, they knew that if Sloutskaya doesn't win the long, one of Americans will be the champion. As simple as that.

GoSandrine
Feb 24th, 2002, 08:29 PM
These conspiracy theories just keep getting better and better. *yawn* :rolleyes:

angele87
Feb 24th, 2002, 08:32 PM
I agree with Hurley... although it may not be fair, after the long program the judges knew they wanted Sarah to win so even if Irina was in the lead after the short i still think she would of finished second!

Hurley
Feb 24th, 2002, 08:35 PM
But, ys, I think that judges who favored Kwan brought Irina down, and judges who favored Slutskaya brought Michelle down. This allowed Sarah to sneak through.

Even after Sarah skated a perfect long, I still don't think the judges would conspire in her favor. We all know that judges have pre-ordained decisions about which skater has more "international clout"...I can't ever believe that any of those judges would have preferred Hughes to win the Olympic gold medal over either Kwan or Slutskaya.

Yes, it took a lot of close decisions to give Hughes the gold. I am positive that A) that chain could not have been set up, and B) those decisions coming to fruition completely took the judges by surprise.

Yes, there are pro-American judges, but if they voted Irina lower than they should have, I'm positive it was to get Kwan to win the long program. But the ordinals were so jumbled that it was impossible to fix in anyone's favor, especially Hughes'.

Hurley
Feb 24th, 2002, 08:38 PM
No angele...had Irina been in first after the short, she WOULD have won the gold medal, had the long program gone exactly the way it had gone...that's what the Russian Federation is complaining about.

I think you actually disagreed with me in that last post. :p

Hurley
Feb 24th, 2002, 10:58 PM
I know many people feel the same way as you do, Viva. And I don't dispute the subjectivity of you.

But my only point was that if they're planning to get the gold medal for Irina based upon misjudging of the short program, they should have at least set the precedent by protesting directly after it. By doing it this way, it only looks like sour grapes.

I think I've stated my opinion on the rest of your points in my previous posts.

harloo
Feb 24th, 2002, 11:53 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D Viva you are a work of art.;)

harloo
Feb 25th, 2002, 12:22 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Tratree
Feb 25th, 2002, 06:09 AM
IF IF IF IF......

If "ifs" and "buts" were coffee and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas. It's over....done.