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DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2004, 05:57 PM
I still think at her best Venus is a better player than Serena. :wavey:

ys
Apr 6th, 2004, 05:59 PM
I agree. It's just an open question whether that "her best" still exists.

Knizzle
Apr 6th, 2004, 05:59 PM
Haven't seen both of them at best against each other.

SJW
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:00 PM
no. there are many other people out there who can't count ;)

WhatTheDeuce
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:01 PM
Venus is not the better player. It's been proven. It's not really up for debate, I don't think.

UDiTY
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:02 PM
I think the play of Venus summer 2000 would beat Serena in 2002. Both of them playing at their bests. But yeah Serena is more consistent than Venus, and has been the better competitor the last few years.:p

for-sure
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Serena is the best player in the world.

WtaTour4Ever
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:08 PM
I used to think that...but I'm not so sure anymore. 9/10 Serena is playing at a higher level than Venus so all else is really speculative b/c she hasn't brought her A game in so long.

Foot_Fault
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:08 PM
I agree...Venus is just going through a phase, that ALL athletes go through, she'll come out of it. I believe it. Just a matter of time.

SJW
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:11 PM
this conversation makes me sick to the stomach

please...let's just get over it.

calabar
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:14 PM
this conversation makes me sick to the stomach

please...let's just get over it.
Perhaps you need to stay away from message boards if you're this fragile.

alexusjonesfan
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:23 PM
For those who think Venus is the better player, what does Serena have to do to prove to you that she's better?

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:26 PM
For those who think Venus is the better player, what does Serena have to do to prove to you that she's better?


It's not about Serena, it's about Venus.

esta
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:27 PM
I do think Venus is the better player.

Problem is - does she still have that burning desire to be the best player in the world?

When Hingis was still playing, it seems to me that Venus was always pumped up to do well and show who the better player was.

I guess their on-court rivalry was good and brought out the best tennis in her.

Venus at her best is better than Serena at her best IMHO, she just needs to have that burning desire again.

darrinbaker00
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:29 PM
:worship: will always be my favorite, but at her best, she's better than everyone but :hearts: . Serena has the head-to-head advantage, she has more majors, and she has a better overall winning percentage (not to mention the fact that she actually beat Elena Dementieva last week). The proof is in the results. ;)

Vass22
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:29 PM
Serena is better.
In what aspect is Venus better in your opinion? Her serve? Groundies? Speed? Consistency (against Serena, for instance)?

alexusjonesfan
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:34 PM
It's not about Serena, it's about Venus.
whatever...I guess the 'at her best' phrase allows you to explain away everything.

NicoMary
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:38 PM
I still think at her best Venus is a better player than Serena. :wavey:

I do too, she is such an athlete and so impressiv when she can play her best...:worship:

moon
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Serena is better.
In what aspect is Venus better in your opinion? Her serve? Groundies? Speed? Consistency (against Serena, for instance)?
Vee's serve is better (although Rena's is more consistent).
Serena's 2nd serve is better.
Serena's forehand is better.
Vee's backhand is better.
Vee is better at net.
Vee is better at overheads.
Vee is better at covering the courts (although they are both great at it).

*when Vee is on, no one can beat her including baby sis.
*Venus does not have that killer instinct (pre-injury layoff) against Serena that she has against other players, and that is why Serena now has a winning head to head. It's all mental with Venus. When she decides that she is ready to stomp Serena (as Serena has already decided ;)) then it will be on!

spencercarlos
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:39 PM
I agree...Venus is just going through a phase, that ALL athletes go through, she'll come out of it. I believe it. Just a matter of time.
The same Phase Serena had to go throught during 2000- til mid 2001. Still Serena was not losing this often and also Serena won titles in those years.. Venus right now has been more than one year without a title...
Serena is a way better player than Venus. Better in all surfaces.

spencercarlos
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:48 PM
Vee's serve is better (although Rena's is more consistent).
Serena's 2nd serve is better.
Serena's forehand is better.
Vee's backhand is better.
Vee is better at net.
Vee is better at overheads.
Vee is better at covering the courts (although they are both great at it).

*when Vee is on, no one can beat her including baby sis.
*Venus does not have that killer instinct (pre-injury layoff) against Serena that she has against other players, and that is why Serena now has a winning head to head. It's all mental with Venus. When she decides that she is ready to stomp Serena (as Serena has already decided ;)) then it will be on!
Vee serve is better? And that such talk that many people say (Players like Davenport, Hingis and even last week Danilidou, Dementieva also mentioned) about Serena having the best serve.
Venus hits hard but she is so inconsistent, even when she was during her 2000 streak her serve was still shaky sometimes (especially on tight points).
Serena has better groundstrokes, Venus covers the court better but not by much, and Serena is such an athlete as well. Venus has a better net play, but honestly i don`t see Venus rushing the net against Serena and winning. Overheads? Serena has such a nice overhead as well, she can hit it hard, she can hit slice to open up the court, she rarely (at least before injury) misses an overhead now. Unlike Venus who can miss some smashes when she is nervious.
The biggest diference between them is the serve and forehand, Serena can handle power better with her forehand, unlike Venus. Venus backhand is better but Serena`s not weak, so, pretty much you won`t find many holes in Serena`s game. That`s is why Serena is better.

moon
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:49 PM
The same Phase Serena had to go throught during 2000- til mid 2001. Still Serena was not losing this often and also Serena won titles in those years.. Venus right now has been more than one year without a title...
Serena is a way better player than Venus. Better in all surfaces.
Serena was not losing this often?
How about in the quarters at Miami (2000) to Capriati?
Or how about 4th round AO to Likhotseva?
Or what about when she lost in the quarters at 2001AO to Hingis?

Your memory may be short, but Rena had losses too, during that period.
btw--lets, not forget that Venus has been out the majority of the past 12 months with that abdominal strain.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:50 PM
Why is it?! I donīt think Venus has been as impressive as Serena has been from the start till now. Serena came up and already was beating up players Venus was struggling with. Has Venus ever have a tear like Serena had during Wimbledonī00 when she was smoking people left and right?!

Serena serves better, Serena has the better forehand, Serena plays agressive...Venus is mostly defensive or forcing the error, thatīs why it looks like she has the better defense, but if Serena would play just defense, no one would hit a winner past her either.

Serena is more the all-surfacer and hasnīt lose 1 and 1 since becoming a major champion. All in all itīs all Serena. Always has been so and now that she got over the big-sis thing...itīs bye bye Venus. The results donīt lie.

Knizzle
Apr 6th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Why is it?! I donīt think Venus has been as impressive as Serena has been from the start till now. Serena came up and already was beating up players Venus was struggling with. Has Venus ever have a tear like Serena had during Wimbledonī00 when she was smoking people left and right?!

Serena serves better, Serena has the better forehand, Serena plays agressive...Venus is mostly defensive or forcing the error, thatīs why it looks like she has the better defense, but if Serena would play just defense, no one would hit a winner past her either.

Serena is more the all-surfacer and hasnīt lose 1 and 1 since becoming a major champion. All in all itīs all Serena. Always has been so and now that she got over the big-sis thing...itīs bye bye Venus. The results donīt lie.
Serena was not always better than Venus. That's just not true. She is definitely better now. Whether Venus will become better than Serena again, who knows?? It could happen, it could not happen. To say Venus is mostly defensive is untrue or else she wouldn't hit as many winners as she does. As far as Venus smoking people, she won 35 matches in a row in 2000. Nuff said.

Just_Love
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:00 PM
No, you are not. Venus is the one who is superior, but her sister is the one who is consistent. Venus can be affected by emotions easily while Serena can slam her opponent mercilessly.

moon
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Serena was not always better than Venus. That's just not true. She is definitely better now. Whether Venus will become better than Serena again, who knows?? It could happen, it could not happen. To say Venus is mostly defensive is untrue or else she wouldn't hit as many winners as she does. As far as Venus smoking people, she won 35 matches in a row in 2000. Nuff said.
Thank you Knizzle for your post.
First of all, I just want to make it clear that no one is bashing Serena here, I get the impression some people here think this is a "Down with Serena" theread. Obviously Serena has been playing better the last couple of years, hence the better results.
But, if Venus was as aggressive towards Serena than she is/was towards other players, she would win. The match would be close but IMO if they both play at their best, Venus wins.

- L i n a -
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:07 PM
Ugh...

I almost thought these stupid Venus fans were over this...

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:08 PM
Serena was not always better than Venus. That's just not true. She is definitely better now. Whether Venus will become better than Serena again, who knows?? It could happen, it could not happen. To say Venus is mostly defensive is untrue or else she wouldn't hit as many winners as she does. As far as Venus smoking people, she won 35 matches in a row in 2000. Nuff said.

If Venus wasnīt Serenaīs sister....that streak would have stopped at six, īcause Serena would have smoked her at Wimby.

SMOKE, SMOKE...not just BEATING people and for that you go to Serena. Beating Lindsay 6-2 6-1, Amelie 6-2 6-1, etc...THAT Iīm talking about.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:09 PM
Thank you Knizzle for your post.
First of all, I just want to make it clear that no one is bashing Serena here, I get the impression some people here think this is a "Down with Serena" theread. Obviously Serena has been playing better the last couple of years, hence the better results.
But, if Venus was as aggressive towards Serena than she is/was towards other players, she would win. The match would be close but IMO if they both play at their best, Venus wins.

Now youīre talking....both are the best, itīs pretty even..and then it goes to who competes better: Serena. 6-4 in ten matches.

spencercarlos
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Serena was not losing this often?
How about in the quarters at Miami (2000) to Capriati?
Or how about 4th round AO to Likhotseva?
Or what about when she lost in the quarters at 2001AO to Hingis?

Your memory may be short, but Rena had losses too, during that period.
btw--lets, not forget that Venus has been out the majority of the past 12 months with that abdominal strain.
How about Venus losing 6-1 6-1 to Hingis when Serena just took her to 8-6 in the third set the day earlier? :rolleyes:

Lets take one year for example from Miami 2003-to Miami 2004
Venus played 8 tournaments (4 last year). 2 Finals played. 0 Titles. 0 semifinals. 3 Qf. 2 Rd of 16. 1 3rd round.
Serena played 6 tournaments (5 last year). 3 tournaments wins. 1 final. 2 semifinals.
Serena was out for a longer time and still trashes 6-1 6-1 the oponnent who took out Venus. Serena was the one who had a small surgery as well.

Serena from 2000-mid2001 still not at her best still won 4 titles, lost another 2 finals in 18 events had a Period W/L: 61 - 14. This all before winning the Canadian Open in 2001. I don`t think Venus has come even close, so how long since Venus last played her best Tennis? 2 years? 3 years? 4 years?

Knizzle
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:18 PM
If Venus wasnīt Serenaīs sister....that streak would have stopped at six, īcause Serena would have smoked her at Wimby.
Why?? Because she has smoked 5 nobodies up to that point?? She hadn't played anyone like Venus before that. Venus also breezed through the FO 2002 without dropping a set until the final and Wimby 2002 losing one set then then AO 2003 without dropping a set. Did it mean anything when she faced Serena??

SMOKE, SMOKE...not just BEATING people and for that you go to Serena. Beating Lindsay 6-2 6-1, Amelie 6-2 6-1, etc...THAT Iīm talking about. I don't recall Serena beating these 2 at Wimbledon 2000.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:19 PM
How about Venus losing 6-1 6-1 to Hingis when Serena just took her to 8-6 in the third set the day earlier? :rolleyes:

Lets take one year for example from Miami 2003-to Miami 2004
Venus played 8 tournaments (4 last year). 2 Finals played. 0 Titles. 0 semifinals. 3 Qf. 2 Rd of 16. 1 3rd round.
Serena played 6 tournaments (5 last year). 3 tournaments wins. 1 final. 2 semifinals.
Serena was out for a longer time and still trashes 6-1 6-1 the oponnent who took out Venus. Serena was the one who had a small surgery as well.

Serena from 2000-mid2001 still not at her best still won 4 titles, lost another 2 finals in 18 events had a Period W/L: 61 - 14. This all before winning the Canadian Open in 2001. I don`t think Venus has come even close, so how long since Venus last played her best Tennis? 2 years? 3 years? 4 years?

sshh......

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Why?? Because she has smoked 5 nobodies up to that point?? She hadn't played anyone like Venus before that. Venus also breezed through the FO 2002 without dropping a set until the final and Wimby 2002 losing one set then then AO 2003 without dropping a set. Did it mean anything when she faced Serena??

I don't recall Serena beating these 2 at Wimbledon 2000.

You got a first point there.... I just think that Serena at her best is more solid than Venus at her best...for Venus at her best to beat Serena, sheīs gonna have to serve 100%....īcause otherwise Serena īs still gonna pick up on those second-serves and will put too much pressure on the forehand.

Whatīs Venus going to attack when Serenaīs at her best?!

selesfan
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:26 PM
this conversation makes me sick to the stomach

please...let's just get over it.
I agree! Serena could win 30 slams and we will still be hearing that Venus is the better player.:rolleyes:

UDiTY
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:28 PM
How about Venus losing 6-1 6-1 to Hingis when Serena just took her to 8-6 in the third set the day earlier? :rolleyes:

People match up differently to different people. Jennifer beat Serena in straights at Key Biscayne '01 and Venus beat her in 3 in the final.

Knizzle
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:29 PM
Venus can attack Serena's backhand. Also Serena's second serve since Serena likes to hit it to the backhand side. Venus just needs to put Serena on the run and come to net more. You saw the Aussie and Wimbledon 2003. Wasn't much between them. Venus' DF's cost her the match in Aus.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:30 PM
I agree! Serena could win 30 slams and we will still be hearing that Venus is the better player.:rolleyes:

I hear ya, I hear ya...now I know why the Hingis-phite are feeling frustrated.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Venus can attack Serena's backhand. Also Serena's second serve since Serena likes to hit it to the backhand side. Venus just needs to put Serena on the run and come to net more. You saw the Aussie and Wimbledon 2003. Wasn't much between them. Venus' DF's cost her the match in Aus.

well...at the Oz open it was Venus who was doing more of the running. In fact Serena almost always is the one who dictates the pace...when youīre telling that Venus has to leave the baseline for her to beat Serena, thus taking Venus from her confort zone, isnīt the answer obvious: Serena at her best beats Venus at her best from the baseline...now Venus gotta improve her volleys first, because otherwise she ainīt beating Serena at the net either.

Knizzle
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:39 PM
well...at the Oz open it was Venus who was doing more of the running. In fact Serena almost always is the one who dictates the pace...when youīre telling that Venus has to leave the baseline for her to beat Serena, thus taking Venus from her confort zone, isnīt the answer obvious: Serena at her best beats Venus at her best from the baseline...now Venus gotta improve her volleys first, because otherwise she ainīt beating Serena at the net either.
Both players had to run alot at the Aussie. I didn't say Venus HAD to leave the baseline to beat Serena, but it would make it a whole lot easier. As for the volleys, Venus volleys away Serena's passing shots rather well. Venus just needs to be agressive. She is sometimes too passive against Serena. Also if Venus gets her first serve going at a high percentage that will be a big plus for her because no one can return it consistently.

mentos
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:48 PM
this conversation makes me sick to the stomach

please...let's just get over it.it is futile to resist, you will be assimilated.
repeat after me: Venus is better ...
1. she has the better first serve (block out those inoportune times it misfires)
2. she has the better forehand (see above); she has the better backhand (lil sis only has a variety of angles and slice on that side: no big deal).
3. she has better footwork; better overhead (you must be blind to not see big sis' superior technique).
4. she has the better netplay (seriously, this is true!:lol:).
5. when they wore beads, hers looked nicer.
6. when they wore braids, hers were classier.
7. reebok is better than puma and nike combined.
8. she magnanimously allowed lil sis to achieve the serenaslam at her expense and...and...and set aside her pride once again by not winning upon her return from injury, but instead permitting williams the younger to claim top prize in a Tier I event upon her comeback...DUH, I mean, why else would she have thrown that match against Dementieva?:confused:

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:50 PM
You got a first point there.... I just think that Serena at her best is more solid than Venus at her best...for Venus at her best to beat Serena, sheīs gonna have to serve 100%....īcause otherwise Serena īs still gonna pick up on those second-serves and will put too much pressure on the forehand.

Whatīs Venus going to attack when Serenaīs at her best?!

Venus should have beaten Serena at the 03 A.O., and if she'd taken her oppurtunities to attack the net I think she would have won. It seems like Serena is more willing to do what Richard tells her is best for her game, and Venus isn't. Venus knows she should attack the net, BJK, Martina N, and Richard know she should move forward, Venus just seems too reluctant, or lacks the confidence to do what it takes.

When Venus is playing well her second serve and forehand are not liabilities.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:50 PM
Both players had to run alot at the Aussie. I didn't say Venus HAD to leave the baseline to beat Serena, but it would make it a whole lot easier. As for the volleys, Venus volleys away Serena's passing shots rather well. Venus just needs to be agressive. She is sometimes too passive against Serena. Also if Venus gets her first serve going at a high percentage that will be a big plus for her because no one can return it consistently.

Only thing I know is that when the day that happens: Both sisters playing their best against each other....one of the best matches in tennis history for sure.

"Topaz"
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Venus at her best, with >67% first serve, should beat Serena at her best. However, don't expect to see Venus at that level any time soon.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Venus should have beaten Serena at the 03 A.O., and if she'd taken her oppurtunities to attack the net I think she would have won. It seems like Serena is more willing to do what Richard tells her is best for her game, and Venus isn't. Venus knows she should attack the net, BJK, Martina N, and Richard know she should move forward, Venus just seems too reluctant, or lacks the confidence to do what it takes.

When Venus is playing well her second serve and forehand are not liabilities.

Donīt you see it...Serena is so good she is FORCING Venus to go and try something different for her to beat Serena. Venus grew up at the baseline, but now sheīs to will herself to go the net. That alone speaks volume about Serenaīs game.

alextreiber04
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Venus is not the better player. It's been proven. It's not really up for debate, I don't think.

Agreement has ensued. :)

:scared: :anzela: :retard:

Knizzle
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Bandabou, Venus started coming to net WAY before Serena became the force she is now.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Donīt you see it...Serena is so good she is FORCING Venus to go and try something different for her to beat Serena. Venus grew up at the baseline, but now sheīs to will herself to go the net. That alone speaks volume about Serenaīs game.


I don't think it has much to do w/Serena, Venus moving forward would make all of her matches easier. She ran Serena like a ragdoll 03 A.O. and had many chances to move forward but didn't.

udachi Elena
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Just to pose a little different question: you dont' have to answer it, but if Kim had beaten Serena, which she should have 5-1? and it was Venus vs Kim in the final, personally I think Venus probably would have won it. So would Venus be at a different level right now had she won one of the slams last year?

Knizzle
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Just to pose a little different question: you dont' have to answer it, but if Kim had beaten Serena, which she should have 5-1? and it was Venus vs Kim in the final, personally I think Venus probably would have won it. So would Venus be at a different level right now had she won one of the slams last year?
She may have had some added confidence, but she would still have gotten hurt and been out 6 months so I don't think it would have made much difference.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Just to pose a little different question: you dont' have to answer it, but if Kim had beaten Serena, which she should have 5-1? and it was Venus vs Kim in the final, personally I think Venus probably would have won it. So would Venus be at a different level right now had she won one of the slams last year?


I don't think so. Venus doesn't have problems beating the other top players consistantly, look at her h2h's -v- them.

One loss to justine
One loss one ret. against Kim
Never lost to Capriati
Won last what 8 of 9 against Lindsay
One(two) losses to Amelie

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Just to pose a little different question: you dont' have to answer it, but if Kim had beaten Serena, which she should have 5-1? and it was Venus vs Kim in the final, personally I think Venus probably would have won it. So would Venus be at a different level right now had she won one of the slams last year?

It ainīt about the other players really, I think itīs about Serena. She has shown she can beat the other top players pretty easily, but somehow canīt get over the hump against Serena.

LindsayRocks89
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Serena and Venus both at their best is just to hard for me to say who is ultimately better

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:02 PM
I don't think it has much to do w/Serena, Venus moving forward would make all of her matches easier. She ran Serena like a ragdoll 03 A.O. and had many chances to move forward but didn't.

Ran like a ragdoll?! Well to my knowledge it was Serena who had the most winners....

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Ran like a ragdoll?! Well to my knowledge it was Serena who had the most winners....


What does winners have to w/my statement? You can run your opponent all day, but if you don't put the point away at the net or w/first strike tennis you can still lose and have fewer winners. Serena hitting more winners doesn't make my statement moot.

justine was running Venus ragged at Charlestown(?), and probably hit more winners, but Venus found a way to win the match.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:11 PM
What does winners have to w/my statement? You can run your opponent all day, but if you don't put the point away at the net or w/first strike tennis you can still lose and have fewer winners. Serena hitting more winners doesn't make my statement moot.

justine was running Venus ragged at Charlestown(?), and probably hit more winners, but Venus found a way to win the match.

Of course not....but in this case Serena had AND more winners AND more ufeīs...so that clearly indicates that Serena was the one who was pressing.

Of course Venus may have made her run alot, but the opposite is more than true too: Serena made Venus run A LOT too.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:13 PM
Of course not....but in this case Serena had AND more winners AND more ufeīs...so that clearly indicates that Serena was the one who was pressing.

Of course Venus may have made her run alot, but the opposite is more than true too: Serena made Venus run A LOT too.

No it clearly indicates that Serena won two sets and Venus only won one. It makes sense that an offensive player would have more winners in winning a three set match. It'd be interesting to find out which set she had the most ue's .

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:16 PM
No it clearly indicates that Serena won two sets and Venus only won one. It makes sense that an offensive player would have more winners in winning a three set match. It'd be interesting to find out which set she had the most ue's .

Youīre saying it yourself...how can a defensive player make an offensive player run more?!

DeDe4925
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:37 PM
I still think at her best Venus is a better player than Serena. :wavey:
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always thought Serena was a better player technically than Venus and still do.

DeDe4925
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:39 PM
It's not about Serena, it's about Venus.
But, you made it about Serena when you said this, "I still think at her best Venus is a better player than Serena."

Jakeev
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Serena has proven to the world that at this point in her career, she is THE BETTER player compared to Venus.

Her results and wins should be proof enough. With the exception of perhaps her backhand, which in itself is still a lethal shot in Serena's arsenal, I still think she does everything tactically better than Venus.

EVERYTHING. She moves better, has more variety on her serve, can turn defensive points into offensive winners, you name it Serena can just do it all better than Venus can.

I keep reading that if Venus had done this or would do this better, she should beat Serena. I totally disagree. No matter how down and out Serena can get, which is very rare, she still finds away to come up with a win.

Now does this mean Venus will never beat her sister again? Probably not. But I don't see Serena ever being dominated my another player on court for a long time to come.

tennisIlove09
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:47 PM
YES YES YES! Venus is the better player. I've been saying this for years!

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Serena has proven to the world that at this point in her career, she is THE BETTER player compared to Venus.

Her results and wins should be proof enough. With the exception of perhaps her backhand, which in itself is still a lethal shot in Serena's arsenal, I still think she does everything tactically better than Venus.

EVERYTHING. She moves better, has more variety on her serve, can turn defensive points into offensive winners, you name it Serena can just do it all better than Venus can.

I keep reading that if Venus had done this or would do this better, she should beat Serena. I totally disagree. No matter how down and out Serena can get, which is very rare, she still finds away to come up with a win.

Now does this mean Venus will never beat her sister again? Probably not. But I don't see Serena ever being dominated my another player on court for a long time to come.

Truer words have never been spoken...

- L i n a -
Apr 6th, 2004, 08:55 PM
Why the hell are people even arguing this?

Just look at the damn results... geez.

Jakeev
Apr 6th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Why the hell are people even arguing this?

Just look at the damn results... geez.
Arguing? Leenah people in her are actually having a reasonable debate about the sisters. Perhaps you should learn something about that in this thread.

ĪCharlDaĪ
Apr 6th, 2004, 09:10 PM
I think the same as you Da Forehand!

When Venus is on, no one can touch her!

cool bird
Apr 6th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Only thing I know is that when the day that happens: Both sisters playing their best against each other....one of the best matches in tennis history for sure.

It would be the greatest match ever. I have no doubt in that. But it will never happen. It is a shame that prob the two best tennis players who ever walked had to be sisters.

But i think that Venus and Serena are so closely matched. Venus has i think more natural taltent then Serena. Her power comes more from timeing then build. And she has softer hands so can mix up her game more. With drop shots and volleys.

Serena moves better then Venus but Venus has better reach. so can get more balls back, if that make sense.

But the big differet and the reason i belive Serena will always be the better player is when Serena and Venus play, Serena sees a oppent now. Where as Venus still see her sister

CJ07
Apr 6th, 2004, 09:31 PM
actually i think Venus at her best is better than Serena at her best only because Venus at her best is so much powerful and accurate than Serena at her best

unfortunately for Venus when she's NOT at her best, Serena is the much better player.

For example, Venus will always be able to serve faster and hit harder winners (not average, that goes to Serena) than Serena, so when she's at her best, obviously she's going to do those better

but i think if you look back at Wimbledon 2002 and Australia 2003, whenever one was at her best, it still looked like if the other would pick it up she'd win.

That's why I really think they're pretty much even when at their best, and it just comes down to who wants it more.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 09:35 PM
It would be the greatest match ever. I have no doubt in that. But it will never happen. It is a shame that prob the two best tennis players who ever walked had to be sisters.

But i think that Venus and Serena are so closely matched. Venus has i think more natural taltent then Serena. Her power comes more from timeing then build. And she has softer hands so can mix up her game more. With drop shots and volleys.

Serena moves better then Venus but Venus has better reach. so can get more balls back, if that make sense.

But the big differet and the reason i belive Serena will always be the better player is when Serena and Venus play, Serena sees a oppent now. Where as Venus still see her sister

Real shame and pretty amazing at the same time.... Yep, thatīs the main difference..Serena is all over that sister-thing now.

GogoGirl
Apr 6th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Hey All,


Great topic.

What did Pops point out? I personally think when Mr. Williams made the statement that Serena would be better than Venus one day - he was mainly telling the truth in one important sense. What I think he ultimately meant - was that Serena had the potential to catch Venus and then hold her own too. Holding it up for the Williams family. I think he also took into account that Venus was more injury prone than Serena - and Serena was shorter - more compact and closer to the ground. Plus - she has a heart of a lion.

I agree with the ones that state - Venus is better than Serena in this or that area - and mainly and IMO - it is in the area of - AIM. Serena knows how to change the direction of the ball a little better than Venus - but when Venus sees that end in sight and aims for it - look out.

Seriously though - my main thing is - Venus can be spot on when she is wheeling on all six cylinders. Btw - she, and anyone, can have all the desire and motivation in the world - but if certain shots break down and the errors racks up, then most likely - it is their technique that breaks down. My girl has the desire - and she knows it. She and her dad need to practice her technique in certain areas - to include the serve, her movements - and - last but neva least - she has to start aiming again.

After all - Elena had the desire to stomp Serena into the ground.

saki
Apr 6th, 2004, 09:52 PM
I can't believe that there are still people who think Venus is better. I just don't get it - exactly what does Serena have to do to convince you that she's better? Win all four Slams? Beat Venus on all surfaces? Oh, but she's already done that. This 'at her best' thing is just a means for obsessive fans to continue to delude themselves. Being a good player involves consistent good play. Venus is a great player, she's had a rotten time of it with injuries but even when she was playing the tour regularly, was fit and healthy, was beating everyone else, she was losing to Serena. Because Serena is better.

- L i n a -
Apr 6th, 2004, 10:04 PM
Arguing? Leenah people in her are actually having a reasonable debate about the sisters. Perhaps you should learn something about that in this thread.
I know more about tennis then you'd ever hope to know... jackass.

My point is that "Venus is better at her best, this shot is better, blah blah blah... " is pure bullshit from diehard Venus fans... who the majority of, have no intelligence about tennis.

Results are results, and Serena has obvious, unequivocally, without a doubt, been the better player for the past 2 years. No more has to be said.

End of story. Now, fuck off you ignorant twat.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2004, 10:15 PM
I can't believe that there are still people who think Venus is better. I just don't get it - exactly what does Serena have to do to convince you that she's better? Win all four Slams? Beat Venus on all surfaces? Oh, but she's already done that. This 'at her best' thing is just a means for obsessive fans to continue to delude themselves. Being a good player involves consistent good play. Venus is a great player, she's had a rotten time of it with injuries but even when she was playing the tour regularly, was fit and healthy, was beating everyone else, she was losing to Serena. Because Serena is better.

And that is the bottom-line.

Jakeev
Apr 6th, 2004, 11:23 PM
I know more about tennis then you'd ever hope to know... jackass.

My point is that "Venus is better at her best, this shot is better, blah blah blah... " is pure bullshit from diehard Venus fans... who the majority of, have no intelligence about tennis.

Results are results, and Serena has obvious, unequivocally, without a doubt, been the better player for the past 2 years. No more has to be said.

End of story. Now, fuck off you ignorant twat.
Was it something I said?:lol: :lol: :lol: oh and correction I'm an ignorant cocksucker......your the twat......get it right huh hun?

Venus+Serena#1fan
Apr 7th, 2004, 12:25 AM
Serena is better. She has a MUCH BETTER SERVE. More aggressive, has much better groundstrokes.

Backhand Venus: 10
Serena: 9

Forehand: Serena: 10
Venus: 8

And Vee may volley a bit better with traditional volleys, but Serena has better swing volleys and better angles on her groundstrokes, she has better hands than Venus for acute angles that drive her opponents off the court.

laj
Apr 7th, 2004, 12:30 AM
I still think at her best Venus is a better player than Serena. :wavey:The genesis of this thread is like an argument between Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles as they sat as part of the viewing audience of a tennis match (in this analogy we would substitute "match" for "careers":- Venus's and Serena's) between the Williams sisters. Then, as those two argue about that which they have not yet seen, that is, which sister is the better player, I wrote in Braille on billboard the following summary of Williams sisters’ careers:



Venus:

104 Tournaments on WTA tour..........................$ 13,159,451.00 career prize money.



Serena:

67 Tournaments on the WTA tour......................$ 12,946,863.00 career prize money.



I then told those two men, who are deprived of their physical ability of sight, to FOLLOW THE MONEY AND THEREAFTER THINGS WILL BECOME MUCH CLEARER TO EACH OF THEM.

spencercarlos
Apr 7th, 2004, 12:30 AM
What does winners have to w/my statement? You can run your opponent all day, but if you don't put the point away at the net or w/first strike tennis you can still lose and have fewer winners. Serena hitting more winners doesn't make my statement moot.

justine was running Venus ragged at Charlestown(?), and probably hit more winners, but Venus found a way to win the match.
So then your statement assures that Serena not ONLY has a great Attacking game but also a great defense, as you say she "ran" Serena from side to side at the AOpen 2003 still could not put the point away. And when Serena had Venus running on her own she was the one who put away winners. LOL at what you say...
I mean not only because i think in fact Serena is so complete that she defends well by attacking, she gets out of many defensive positions by doing that, but you (MOST VENUS FANS) never would admit Serena is better.. the reason?
1)Venus does not wants to take her chances.
2)Venus stays too pasive on big points
3)Venus does not come to the net

Yes avoid the real fact... Serena is way better... plain and simple.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2004, 02:28 AM
Youīre saying it yourself...how can a defensive player make an offensive player run more?!
Where in my post did I say Venus is a defensive player? :tape:

Many people considered Hingis more defensive than offensive...did she not make players run and controlled the center of the court?

Lindsay, Monica, Venus , Capriati, Serena...et al she's run them all during her reign of terror.

tennischick
Apr 7th, 2004, 02:29 AM
y'know the question is pointless if Hingis' matches have to be invoked in order to make the point of Venus so-called superiority. Hingis has RETIRED. get over it folks...:rolleyes:

jay_k
Apr 7th, 2004, 02:36 AM
Venus should have beaten Serena at the 03 A.O., and if she'd taken her oppurtunities to attack the net I think she would have won. ........Venus knows she should attack the net, BJK, Martina N, and Richard know she should move forward,


...and you are the one who gives Monica fans shit for saying "would have " , "could have" and "should have" ?? :confused:

:p

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2004, 02:37 AM
Hey All,


Great topic.

What did Pops point out? I personally think when Mr. Williams made the statement that Serena would be better than Venus one day - he was mainly telling the truth in one important sense. What I think he ultimately meant - was that Serena had the potential to catch Venus and then hold her own too. Holding it up for the Williams family. I think he also took into account that Venus was more injury prone than Serena - and Serena was shorter - more compact and closer to the ground. Plus - she has a heart of a lion.

I agree with the ones that state - Venus is better than Serena in this or that area - and mainly and IMO - it is in the area of - AIM. Serena knows how to change the direction of the ball a little better than Venus - but when Venus sees that end in sight and aims for it - look out.

Seriously though - my main thing is - Venus can be spot on when she is wheeling on all six cylinders. Btw - she, and anyone, can have all the desire and motivation in the world - but if certain shots break down and the errors racks up, then most likely - it is their technique that breaks down. My girl has the desire - and she knows it. She and her dad need to practice her technique in certain areas - to include the serve, her movements - and - last but neva least - she has to start aiming again.

After all - Elena had the desire to stomp Serena into the ground.

More recently "pops" was quoted saying that when Venus starts doing what she's supposed to be doing nobody can touch her. I think that's a true statement.


This was a nice "clean" thread until.....someone made it personal:rolleyes:

Alan
Apr 7th, 2004, 03:07 AM
I still think at her best Venus is a better player than Serena. :wavey:

i agree

jbone_0307
Apr 7th, 2004, 03:09 AM
Hell NO!! Venus' game is too technical and it breaks down too easily. Shes very fragile on court, shes had soo many injuries. Every part of her game can break down and shes not even making as many winners as she use to. Her forehand is like WHOA! Her 2nd serve is like WHOA and even sometimes her backhands like NO. Serena is much more efficient and her groundstrokes are too solid and consistent for venus. So Venus isn't the better player, if your comparing her to Serena.

tennisIlove09
Apr 7th, 2004, 06:02 AM
The genesis of this thread is like an argument between Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles as they sat as part of the viewing audience of a tennis match (in this analogy we would substitute "match" for "careers":- Venus's and Serena's) between the Williams sisters. Then, as those two argue about that which they have not yet seen, that is, which sister is the better player, I wrote in Braille on billboard the following summary of Williams sisters’ careers:



Venus:

104 Tournaments on WTA tour..........................$ 13,159,451.00 career prize money.



Serena:

67 Tournaments on the WTA tour......................$ 12,946,863.00 career prize money.



I then told those two men, who are deprived of their physical ability of sight, to FOLLOW THE MONEY AND THEREAFTER THINGS WILL BECOME MUCH CLEARER TO EACH OF THEM.
And this is the most pathetic stat yet. Money? We are bringing MONEY into this? Again, if Graf or Navratilova were making the kind of money that the girls are making today, they would have 10 times, if not more, more cash.

I can't believe that there are still people who think Venus is better. I just don't get it - exactly what does Serena have to do to convince you that she's better? Win all four Slams? Beat Venus on all surfaces? Oh, but she's already done that. This 'at her best' thing is just a means for obsessive fans to continue to delude themselves. Being a good player involves consistent good play. Venus is a great player, she's had a rotten time of it with injuries but even when she was playing the tour regularly, was fit and healthy, was beating everyone else, she was losing to Serena. Because Serena is better.
Because if you look at those wins, how many was Venus actually playing GOOD tennis? 2. Wimbledon 2002, AO 2003--and even those come across "tainted". Why? Venus had an injury at the 02 Wimbledon (shoulder), and if anyone believes that Venus COULD beat Serena at the OZ and prevent her the history, they are kidding themselves.

Nikola
Apr 7th, 2004, 07:50 AM
:eek:

bandabou
Apr 7th, 2004, 09:43 AM
So then your statement assures that Serena not ONLY has a great Attacking game but also a great defense, as you say she "ran" Serena from side to side at the AOpen 2003 still could not put the point away. And when Serena had Venus running on her own she was the one who put away winners. LOL at what you say...
I mean not only because i think in fact Serena is so complete that she defends well by attacking, she gets out of many defensive positions by doing that, but you (MOST VENUS FANS) never would admit Serena is better.. the reason?
1)Venus does not wants to take her chances.
2)Venus stays too pasive on big points
3)Venus does not come to the net

Yes avoid the real fact... Serena is way better... plain and simple.

And thatīs just the way it is....nothing but excuses!

saki
Apr 7th, 2004, 10:51 AM
Because if you look at those wins, how many was Venus actually playing GOOD tennis? 2. Wimbledon 2002, AO 2003--and even those come across "tainted". Why? Venus had an injury at the 02 Wimbledon (shoulder), and if anyone believes that Venus COULD beat Serena at the OZ and prevent her the history, they are kidding themselves.
Whose fault was it that Venus wasn't playing GOOD tennis? In the end, no-one but Venus'. And, of course, Serena's for forcing her into error. As I said before, part of being a good tennis player is... playing GOOD tennis and Venus hasn't done that against Serena which makes Serena the better tennis player.

bandabou
Apr 7th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Plus, how funny it is that everytime Venus loses against Serena: she didnīt play well. And what about all those losses by Serena?! Wimbledonī00: Did she play well then?! U.S. openī01: Did Serena play well there as well?!

It goes both ways.....

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2004, 01:37 PM
bump

laj
Apr 7th, 2004, 05:50 PM
And this is the most pathetic stat yet. Money? We are bringing MONEY into this? Again, if Graf or Navratilova were making the kind of money that the girls are making today, they would have 10 times, if not more, more cash.


Because if you look at those wins, how many was Venus actually playing GOOD tennis? 2. Wimbledon 2002, AO 2003--and even those come across "tainted". Why? Venus had an injury at the 02 Wimbledon (shoulder), and if anyone believes that Venus COULD beat Serena at the OZ and prevent her the history, they are kidding themselves.Dallas,

I knew that one will go over your head since it was established that with you the elevator does not go to top floor afterall.

laj
Apr 7th, 2004, 05:53 PM
This thread, as an exhibit, has established that there are among us many candidates primed for denial therapy.

bandabou
Apr 7th, 2004, 06:06 PM
You canīt deny the results....they are there in front of u!

alfonsojose
Apr 7th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Yes. i do think so ;)

my 100 post :)

mishar
Apr 7th, 2004, 08:31 PM
Venus might be the better athlete, in some pure sense, but Serena is the better tennis player. She has much better footwork, much better serve, and better angles on her groundstrokes. Venus has a better net game, but since she doesn't get up there much, it doesn't make much of a difference. Venus was obviously the best player in 2000/2001, Serena in 2002/2003. But I don't think Venus played her absolute best in 2000 despite her long winning streak -- I think the best tennis we've seen from her was from Wimbledon 2001 to US open 2001. She was amazing then, and certainly better than Serena at the time. But I think the Serena of Wimbledon-US 2002 was stronger than the Venus of summer 2001. Anyway, it's an impossible thing to know, since so much of tennis is mental. Would Venus have been able to produce her best tennis if Serena was playing at that level? Visa versa for Serena in 2002. That's why records are the only semi-objective way to pin down subjective feelings. Serena has been able to play her best (or close) more often than Venus. Hopefully Venus can come back to playing her best again.

harloo
Apr 7th, 2004, 09:03 PM
I am a bit sick of these threads, it's really silly to continue with such nonsense.

Serena earned her titles just like Venus earned hers. Venus use to be better than Serena, but no more. Venus is just not into tennis right now,maybe it's not her thing at the moment. Now I still do believe that she can be on top, but right now baby sis is just 10 times better than her. Their is no need to be in denial about that, let's just hope that Venus changes and get back to where she was before.;)

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2004, 09:13 PM
lol @ sick and tired...how many of your 4,100 + post are in threads like this? The whole point of the msg. boards is to discuss tennis, express our opinions and and ideas, the beauty of it all is we can eithr join in , digress, or mock posters, but it all comes down to your view against another.

bandabou
Apr 7th, 2004, 09:22 PM
I think the answer tho this would be: Serenaīs best form: ī02 has been more impressive to me than Venusīs at her best: ī00 or ī01. Venus only gets going after RG and the clay-season, while Serenaīs season has been pretty impressive on all surfaces: finals at all the bigger tier I or better tournaments on all surfaces.....something Venus hasnīt achieved so far.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 7th, 2004, 09:24 PM
I think the answer tho this would be: Serenaīs best form: ī02 has been more impressive to me than Venusīs at her best: ī00 or ī01. Venus only gets going after RG and the clay-season, while Serenaīs season has been pretty impressive on all surfaces: finals at all the bigger tier I or better tournaments on all surfaces.....something Venus hasnīt achieved so far.
Serena's longest win streak?

tennisIlove09
Apr 7th, 2004, 09:29 PM
I think the answer tho this would be: Serenaīs best form: ī02 has been more impressive to me than Venusīs at her best: ī00 or ī01. Venus only gets going after RG and the clay-season, while Serenaīs season has been pretty impressive on all surfaces: finals at all the bigger tier I or better tournaments on all surfaces.....something Venus hasnīt achieved so far.
and I disagree. Venus in 2001 Wimbledon was the best tennis I've seen her play. To me, that tennis would beat Serena's 2002 Tennis any day of the week.

And, what surface hasn't Venus made the finals of a big tournament?

Rebound Ace--Olympics
Clay--Tier 1's--Rome (she won the title)
Grass--Wimbledon (she doesn't play anything else....neither does Serena)
Indoors (she lost to Lindsay in Zurich, I believe. )

bandabou
Apr 7th, 2004, 10:54 PM
Serena: won Nasdaq, won Rome, final Berlin, final Charleston, won Canada, YEC W+ F, those are stats Venus doesnīt come close of producing.....

plus how can Venusīs 01 form be impressive: She lost to Shaugnessy on HARDCOURTS!!!, dropped a set on grass to Justine, etc.... donīt see Serena doing any of that anytime soon.

tennisIlove09
Apr 7th, 2004, 10:57 PM
Serena: won Nasdaq, won Rome, final Berlin, final Charleston, won Canada, YEC W+ F, those are stats Venus doesnīt come close of producing.....

plus how can Venusīs 01 form be impressive: She lost to Shaugnessy on HARDCOURTS!!!, dropped a set on grass to Justine, etc.... donīt see Serena doing any of that anytime soon.
So, we are going to say who they lost to?

KOURNIKOVA in Serena's prime year took Serena to THREE sets. :tape:
SCHNYDER beat Serena on CLAY. :rolleyes:

Venus dropped a set to JHH in a major, Serena lost to her in a major.

And about Serena winning. Venus won Miami, Wimbledon, San Diego, New Haven, US Open, and Hamburg. Serena didn't. What's your point? I'm not getting it.

anton
Apr 7th, 2004, 11:01 PM
Venus is better than Serena. Serena is recently playing more to her potential than Venus is however.

bandabou
Apr 7th, 2004, 11:35 PM
So, we are going to say who they lost to?

KOURNIKOVA in Serena's prime year took Serena to THREE sets. :tape:
SCHNYDER beat Serena on CLAY. :rolleyes:

Venus dropped a set to JHH in a major, Serena lost to her in a major.

And about Serena winning. Venus won Miami, Wimbledon, San Diego, New Haven, US Open, and Hamburg. Serena didn't. What's your point? I'm not getting it.

Kournikova took Serena to three sets?! Hmm..didnīt know about that one.

All am I saying is that Serena won all the BIG, all respect to New Haven and Hamburg, but winning the Masters and Rome, RG, is more impressive to me.

Thatīs all surfaceness....

tennisIlove09
Apr 7th, 2004, 11:36 PM
Sydney QF: Serena def. Kournikova 6-2 4-6 6-3

bandabou
Apr 8th, 2004, 12:20 AM
O.k....but she still didnīt lose..besides it ainīt like Anna isnīt testing Venus herself.

tennisIlove09
Apr 8th, 2004, 01:20 AM
O.k....but she still didnīt lose..besides it ainīt like Anna isnīt testing Venus herself.
True, but not during Venus' prime days, as 2002 was for Serena.

I don't even care how someone wins, a win is a win...but you mentioned the losses.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 8th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Kournikova took Serena to three sets?! Hmm..didnīt know about that one.

All am I saying is that Serena won all the BIG, all respect to New Haven and Hamburg, but winning the Masters and Rome, RG, is more impressive to me.

Thatīs all surfaceness....


It's not always about the size of the tournament (excluding slams) would you put Serena's win at Nasdaq 03, was much more impressive than 04, based on the strength of the field.