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View Full Version : Venus & Serena quietly allow Indian Wells to go on without them


Volcana
Feb 21st, 2004, 05:15 AM
They're both listed for Miami, neither for IW. I'd guess this is the year that the commentators finally let it go. Venus is just another not-even-top-ten player, Serena is just another not-even-top-five player. Indian Wells won't even miss them.

Surely this is all for the best. The fans at Indian Wells made it clear they didn't want either of the Williams sisters there, and the Williams sisters certainly don't need IW. It's sort of Monica and Germany. (Writ very, VERY small, of course) I've never heard of ANY player going back to a tournament where the crowd turned on them like that. I kinda wish Venus would skip Dubai and make SURE she's healthy, then come back at Miami. Of course, playing Dubai DOES make it clear that not playing IW is a choice, but that's no reason to risk her health.

Of course, it DOES seem a bit unfair to the tournament organizers, who after all didn't orchestrate the crowd's behaviour. But from all I hear, attendance last year was near best ever. So Charlie Pasarall et al ain't hurtin'.

Really, it's a win-win-win.

Venus and Serena don't won't to be heckled by a crowd of screaming white people. History has shown that a crowd of screaming white folks can turn into a lynch mob in seconds.

The Indian Wells crowd made their feelings well known, and they won't have to see two players they clearly don't want to.

And the tournament makes money.

Fun and profit for all concerned.

Couldn't be better.

Sam L
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:23 AM
Venus and Serena don't won't to be heckled by a crowd of screaming white people. History has shown that a crowd of screaming white folks can turn into a lynch mob in seconds.
Oh please! Then why is Serena going back to Roland Garros? :rolleyes:

Do you really think that Indian Wells would've become a lynch mob? You're delusional! This isn't 19th century. :rolleyes:

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:30 AM
Oh please! Then why is Serena going back to Roland Garros? :rolleyes:

Do you really think that Indian Wells would've become a lynch mob? You're delusional! This isn't 19th century. :rolleyes:

The French is a slam, and what happened there and what happened at IW are two totally different set of circumstances.

Also, IW was a lynch mob. Not in the 19th century way you mean, but to have a crowd boo you and to have people flinging racial slurs is basically a lynch mob.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:34 AM
They're both listed for Miami, neither for IW. I'd guess this is the year that the commentators finally let it go. Venus is just another not-even-top-ten player, Serena is just another not-even-top-five player. Indian Wells won't even miss them.

Surely this is all for the best. The fans at Indian Wells made it clear they didn't want either of the Williams sisters there, and they certainly don't need IW. It's sort of Monica and Germany. (Writ very, VERY small, of course) I've never heard of ANY player going back to a tournament where the crowd turned on them like that. I kinda wish Venus would skip Dubai and make SURE shes healthy, then come back at Miami. Of course, playing Dubai DOES make it clear that not playing IW is a choice.

Of course, it DOES seem a bit unfair to the tournament organizers, who after all didn't orchestrate the crowd's behaviour. But from all I hear, attendance last year was near best ever. So Charlie Psarall et al ain't hurtin'.

Really, it's a win-win-win.

Venus and Serena don't won't to be heckled by a crowd of screaming white people. History has shown that a crowd of screaming white folks can turn into a lynch mob in seconds.

The Indian Wells crowd made their feelings well known, and they won't have to see two players they clearly don't want to.

And the tournament makes money.

Funa and profit for all concerned.

Couldn't be better.

Shut the fuck up.

Couver
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:36 AM
Shut the fuck up.
Why? One could say the same thing about you? At least Volcana isn't an insulting little twit. :rolleyes:

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:40 AM
Why? One could say the same thing about you? At least Volcana isn't an insulting little twit. :rolleyes:

Actually, he is. I suppose you've never disagreed with him before. Otherwise you'd know that.

Every year, Volcana starts the same fucking thread about Indian Wells. He's the only one who can't get over it and he never will.

JUST SHUT UP YOU MORON.

Jeff
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:55 AM
Of course, it DOES seem a bit unfair to the tournament organizers, who after all didn't orchestrate the crowd's behaviour. But from all I hear, attendance last year was near best ever. So Charlie Psarall et al ain't hurtin'.


It's a bit unfair to Venus/Serena fans who go to Indian Wells, as well. Disappointing not to see them here, just because of other bone heads...

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 12:19 PM
Itīs all cool then. As long as they donīt play there.

Volcana
Feb 21st, 2004, 12:57 PM
Itīs all cool then. As long as they donīt play there.If they WANT to play, that's fine with me too. But if they don't, no harm done.

The crowd at Roland Garros didn't start screaming and booing as Serena walked onto the court to start the match. The RG was, rightly or wrongly, expressing it's feelings about something that had just happened right in front of them. They didn't START hostile. Tennis crowds almost never do, except in Davis Cup.

I've been watching tennis since 1968, and I've NEVER seen a non-Davis Cup crowd start howling at a player AS THEY WALKED IN TO THE STADIUM.

As for ME bringing it up every year, hey, it's fun for ME to bring it up. There have been 12 slams since then, and together, Venus and Serena have won seven of them.

'Living well is the best revenge', eh?

It's sort of like Martin Luther King getting a national holiday. (Writ very, VERY small, of course:).) All his enemies can do every year is grit their teeth and feel like shit as more and more people celebrate it. In the end, even killing him didn't beat him. He's still winning, they're still losing. We get closer and closer to the world he envisioned each day.

Once we get Venus one more GS title or two, it's pretty certain both Venus and Serena will wind up in the Tennis Hall of Fame, just on singles play. Of course, Newport, Rhode Island is a long way from Indian Wells. So the Indian Wells folks may never have intended to ever visit the Tennis Hall of Fame. But if they do, they'll get to se Venus and Serena there, and remember IW's part in making it all happen.

TOTALLY cool.

Volcana
Feb 21st, 2004, 12:59 PM
It's a bit unfair to Venus/Serena fans who go to Indian Wells, as well. Disappointing not to see them here, just because of other bone heads...
They both normally play other California tournaments. (Last year being an exception, natch.) Their fans can see them there.

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 01:09 PM
If they WANT to play, that's fine with me too. But if they don't, no harm done.

The crowd at Roland Garros didn't start screaming and booing as Serena walked onto the court to start the match. The RG was, rightly or wrongly, expressing it's feelings about something that had just happened right in front of them. They didn't START hostile. Tennis crowds almost never do, except in Davis Cup.

I've been watching tennis since 1968, and I've NEVER seen a non-Davis Cup crowd start howling at a player AS THEY WALKED IN TO THE STADIUM.

As for ME bringing it up every year, hey, it's fun for ME to bring it up. There have been 12 slams since then, and together, Venus and Serena have won seven of them.

'Living well is the best revenge', eh?

It's sort of like Martin Luther King getting a national holiday. (Writ very, VERY small, of course:).) All his enemies can do every year is grit their teeth and feel like shit as more and more people celebrate it. In the end, even killing him didn't beat him. He's still winning, they're still losing. We get closer and closer to the world he envisioned each day.

Once we get Venus one more GS title or two, it's pretty certain both Venus and Serena will wind up in the Tennis Hall of Fame, just on singles play. Of course, Newport, Rhode Island is a long way from Indian Wells. So the Indian Wells folks may never have intended to ever visit the Tennis Hall of Fame. But if they do, they'll get to se Venus and Serena there, and remember IW's part in making it all happen.

TOTALLY cool.

classic post!

flyingmachine
Feb 21st, 2004, 01:59 PM
If Venus and Serena don't want to go Indian Wells the organisaers can't do anything about it.
But I'm sure that they rather let the Williams win it than the Belgiums taking back to Belgium but again are they going to Indian Wells?
I think the question of race is a bit nonsense. People all over world saw them as Americas rather than blacks. I maybe wrong when they play in America. But what is certain is that if you are not the local player and you played against the local fav you will get boo.

jenny161185
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:06 PM
they are two different incidents the crowd were howling at serena because of Venus' withdrawal - she didn t do anything wrong, I dont think the french heckling was to do with race it was just tension on court etc, if I were Serena and Venus I wouldn t return to IW either.

Freewoman33
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:15 PM
If they WANT to play, that's fine with me too. But if they don't, no harm done.

The crowd at Roland Garros didn't start screaming and booing as Serena walked onto the court to start the match. The RG was, rightly or wrongly, expressing it's feelings about something that had just happened right in front of them. They didn't START hostile. Tennis crowds almost never do, except in Davis Cup.

I've been watching tennis since 1968, and I've NEVER seen a non-Davis Cup crowd start howling at a player AS THEY WALKED IN TO THE STADIUM.

As for ME bringing it up every year, hey, it's fun for ME to bring it up. There have been 12 slams since then, and together, Venus and Serena have won seven of them.

'Living well is the best revenge', eh?

It's sort of like Martin Luther King getting a national holiday. (Writ very, VERY small, of course:).) All his enemies can do every year is grit their teeth and feel like shit as more and more people celebrate it. In the end, even killing him didn't beat him. He's still winning, they're still losing. We get closer and closer to the world he envisioned each day.

Once we get Venus one more GS title or two, it's pretty certain both Venus and Serena will wind up in the Tennis Hall of Fame, just on singles play. Of course, Newport, Rhode Island is a long way from Indian Wells. So the Indian Wells folks may never have intended to ever visit the Tennis Hall of Fame. But if they do, they'll get to se Venus and Serena there, and remember IW's part in making it all happen.

TOTALLY cool.

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:16 PM
IW's had a lot to do w/race. I hope they never return as well. As one of them said I'm an entertainer, if they don't want to see me play ....

Why should they put themselves through that shit. I love the way some people(usually white) will go to almost any extreme to disprove that anything racial ever happens.

Rtael
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:23 PM
The French is a slam, and what happened there and what happened at IW are two totally different set of circumstances.

Also, IW was a lynch mob. Not in the 19th century way you mean, but to have a crowd boo you and to have people flinging racial slurs is basically a lynch mob.
No.....actually a lynch mob is a....mob that...lynches. Quite simple really. You're wrong.

Rtael
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:25 PM
Once we get Venus one more GS title or two, it's pretty certain both Venus and Serena will wind up in the Tennis Hall of Fame, just on singles play.

TOTALLY cool.

Nah...Venus is already there.....

calabar
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:35 PM
But what is certain is that if you are not the local player and you played against the local fav you will get boo.
This statement is generally a universal truth EXCEPT when it involves two AMERICAN BLACK girls playing in AMERICA. Seems strange isn't it?

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:48 PM
This statement is generally a universal truth EXCEPT when it involves two AMERICAN BLACK girls playing in AMERICA. Seems strange isn't it?

You said it!

DA FOREHAND
Feb 21st, 2004, 02:50 PM
There are no evidence people were flinging racial slurs. No journalist, person in the crowd, Venus or Serena heard it. The only person who heard it is Richard Williams, who is known to be a compulsive liar.

You missed the Greg Rusedski comeback in Montreal when someone threw a bottle at him, and people cheered against him, not only in single, but also in his double match.

So what? People booed them simply because they were pissed off the semi-final was cancelled. If you have fun gloating with accomplishments that are not yours, good for you, but you don't have a point.

You're a bit naive.

It was a dumb reason to boo them, and I do think the incident was deplorable with probably unconscious racial motivation for some people; but crowds are stupid... If let's say 10 people start to boo, another 200 will follow, because again, crowd are dumb. People should just move on already, it was a minor incident.


Venus also said there were racial slurs.

"You're a bit naive" ROBLMBAO!!!!!!
You and people of your ilk wrote the book. :rolleyes:

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:04 PM
Thing is....if dissapointment was all there was needed to start booing someone, my bet is that people are gonna boo Amelie this year( īcause last year they didnīt boo her from withdrawing)....or werenīt they dissapointed that the QF at IW was cancelled this time?!

Tratree
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:11 PM
Once again I get sucked into this ugly topic. Yes, it was deplorable. Yes, it pissed me off. Was there any racial motivation? Probably some in a crowd of 17,000. Was it ALL racially motivated? No.

I was maybe 10 feet from Richard and Venus during the match and I NEVER heard any racial slurs. I saw them come in (which was the time of biggest booing) and I didn't hear any racial slurs. Could someone have said something to them? Of course, but it's not like 17,000 were chanting slurs. If fact, there were many people in my vicinity yelling out support to Serena and chastizing those who booed. Stop demonizing everyone in attendance.

Lynch mob? Please. You demean anyone who has actually been through racial tension to compare this. It was extremely uncomfortable, especially for Serena I would assume, but there was no threat of violence. No one was waiting on the sidelines with rope. Melodramatic much?

Flame away at me if you want, I couldn't give a rat's ass. I was there, I know what happened. Yes, I am white. Hence, you can go ahead and say I'm evil and part of the lynch mob. Of course, that wouldn't be racial at all, right? I hated what happened and personally apologized to Serena for it during a photo shoot afterwards, but it's freaking OVER. Move on.

Tratree
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:16 PM
Thing is....if dissapointment was all there was needed to start booing someone, my bet is that people are gonna boo Amelie this year( īcause last year they didnīt boo her from withdrawing)....or werenīt they dissapointed that the QF at IW was cancelled this time?!
Maybe it was because they tournament AND Amelie handled it well and she came to the court and said WHY she couldn't play and didn't pull out as she was supposed to walk on the court and the tournament didn't wait 10-15 minutes to finally announce what was actually going on.

*JR*
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:17 PM
IW May Make Money. (I won't say "be in the black")! :eek: But it (and Key Biscayne) were each started with the intent of growing into a "5th Slam". Hence the $3MM womens' purses, vs. $1.3MM for a "regular Tier I" and the 2 weeks blocked out for each (and not even a Tier V elsewhere, just like during a Slam). In fact, both are referred to as "Super Tier I's".

Butch and Adam still have the aura of KB being "Something Special". Charlie and Steve don't @ present in IW. And with all respect to what Dani Did in '02 there, and her sad "meltdown" last year, the fact that IW remains her lone title only highlights the significance of the two best players (then, beyond a doubt) having been absent in '02.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:19 PM
"Lynch mob? Please. You demean anyone who has actually been through racial tension to compare this. It was extremely uncomfortable, especially for Serena I would assume, but there was no threat of violence. No one was waiting on the sidelines with rope. Melodramatic much?"

First of all you probably have no idea what it's like to be at the epicenter of a hostile environment, but that would just be an assumption, but if you were you don't think somewhere in your mind you'd think about your safety? I was amazed that Serena not only played the entire match, but won! In 30yrs of watching tennis I've never seen a crowd(mob) like that. Hell they have a no taunting rule in football... which is a contact sport.

Would you play I.W. ? I wouldn't

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:20 PM
Once again I get sucked into this ugly topic. Yes, it was deplorable. Yes, it pissed me off. Was there any racial motivation? Probably some in a crowd of 17,000. Was it ALL racially motivated? No.

I was maybe 10 feet from Richard and Venus during the match and I NEVER heard any racial slurs. I saw them come in (which was the time of biggest booing) and I didn't hear any racial slurs. Could someone have said something to them? Of course, but it's not like 17,000 were chanting slurs. If fact, there were many people in my vicinity yelling out support to Serena and chastizing those who booed. Stop demonizing everyone in attendance.

Lynch mob? Please. You demean anyone who has actually been through racial tension to compare this. It was extremely uncomfortable, especially for Serena I would assume, but there was no threat of violence. No one was waiting on the sidelines with rope. Melodramatic much?

Flame away at me if you want, I couldn't give a rat's ass. I was there, I know what happened. Yes, I am white. Hence, you can go ahead and say I'm evil and part of the lynch mob. Of course, that wouldn't be racial at all, right? I hated what happened and personally apologized to Serena for it during a photo shoot afterwards, but it's freaking OVER. Move on.

No it is not over! Never gonna be! They have moved on....WITHOUT IW that is! They go their ways, IW will go his....no problemo.

But donīt come and act like nothing happened. Of course not everybody was racial that day, but if it had been ANYBODY else who had withdrawn...my bet is that the NON-WITHDRAWING!!! player would NOT have been booed! They wanna boo?! Boo Venus...but donīt come boo Serena who was ready to play and when she is playing a foreigner!

ys
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:22 PM
By skipping it, they are basically refusing to fight for their chance to qualify for Olympics. Now their chance of qualifying is becoming pretty minor.

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:22 PM
Maybe it was because they tournament AND Amelie handled it well and she came to the court and said WHY she couldn't play and didn't pull out as she was supposed to walk on the court and the tournament didn't wait 10-15 minutes to finally announce what was actually going on.

:haha: :rolls: Really huh?! I didnīt find out, till it was time for the match to start and there was no report about Amelie having pulling out..and if Iīm not mistaken her pull-out was only announced like a half-hour before the match. WOOWWWW, now that was well in time, huh?!

DA FOREHAND
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:25 PM
:haha: :rolls: Really huh?! I didnīt find out, till it was time for the match to start and there was no report about Amelie having pulling out..and if Iīm not mistaken her pull-out was only announced like a half-hour before the match. WOOWWWW, now that was well in time, huh?!


Membership has it's priveliges :wavey:

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:27 PM
Membership has it's priveliges :wavey:

Membership of wtaworld, for sure huh?!

*JR*
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:30 PM
It's not really "how many in the crowd said what". It's that Charlie had ample opportunity to defuse the situation with a clear renunciation of anyone Who Was "ova the line" @ the tournament or shortly afterwards. (He "doublefaulted" on the chance to do so).

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:33 PM
It's not really "how many in the crowd said what". It's that Charlie had ample opportunity to defuse the situation with a clear renunciation of anyone Who Was "ova the line" @ the tournament or shortly afterwards. (He "doublefaulted" on the chance to do so).


Exactly... did ANYONE of IW ever apologize for what happened?!

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:45 PM
You're waiting for people in the crowd to come back and apologize?

Tournament-people, somebody?! I think the IW-people only gave a half-hearted talk just to lull them to return, because they knew the tournament was gonna lose a LOOOOOTTT of itīs status.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:49 PM
Exactly... did ANYONE of IW ever apologize for what happened?!

Did venus apologize for pulling out 5 minutes before a highly anticipated televised match with an injury so crippling she was back on the court in a matter of days?

vutt
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:53 PM
LOL @ that racial blah again. It almost seems like no black player ever played that tournie before the incident and after as well.
I remember Chanda played there last year with no problem at all...
So most probably "white evil" will only show up when Richard is around :???:

for thruth sake: I would skip this tournie to after that kind of reception, but not because racial issue...

Tratree
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:55 PM
Did anyone from Roland Garros apologize to Martina Hingis....or Mary Pierce....or Sandrine Testud....or Serena? Did anyone from the revered Ericsson Open apologize to Monica Seles....or Serena?

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:56 PM
Did venus apologize for pulling out 5 minutes before a highly anticipated televised match with an injury so crippling she was back on the court in a matter of days?

:haha: :rolls: Pathetic!

Thing is with the Williamses itīs never good. If Venusīd have played while being injured and got bageled or better: beat Serena...the fix wouldīve been in, peopleīd have said. Withdraw, and the fix is still in.

When people said after Wimbledonī03 that the fix was still in, that made it all clear for me...and that NO MATTE WHAT Venus would have done that day, it wouldnīt have mattered.

Because people already had their opinion and two players being bad LOSERS: Elena D and Lindsay had to walk around and talk crap!

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 21st, 2004, 03:57 PM
:haha: :rolls: Pathetic!

Thing is with the Williamses itīs never good. If Venusīd have played while being injured and got bageled or better: beat Serena...the fix wouldīve been in, peopleīd have said. Withdraw, and the fix is still in.

When people said after Wimbledonī03 that the fix was still in, that made it all clear for me...and that NO MATTE WHAT Venus would have done that day, it wouldnīt have mattered.

Because people already had their opinion and two players being bad LOSERS: Elena D and Lindsay had to walk around and talk crap!

So your answer is no, Venus did not apologize? ok.

Lindsay never said anything.

Look. They were booed because the crowd thought Venus staged her injury because she didn't want to play her sister. And the rational observer cannot dismiss that in light of the evidence.

Infiniti2001
Feb 21st, 2004, 04:01 PM
Believe me, IW would break the bank to get them and a huge majority of the crowd would desperately love to see them. Anyone who thinks injury-depressed rankings REALLY make someone a true "not even top five" or "not even top ten" player is deluded and probably not worth reading.Why is anyone still flogging this anyway? Venus and Serena have moved on , why not do the same?? :rolleyes:

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2004, 04:20 PM
So your answer is no, Venus did not apologize? ok.

Lindsay never said anything.

Look. They were booed because the crowd thought Venus staged her injury because she didn't want to play her sister. And the rational observer cannot dismiss that in light of the evidence.

There was no evidence of no injury...what r u talking about]?! THe wta-doctor said so himself, didnīt he?!

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 04:25 PM
No.....actually a lynch mob is a....mob that...lynches. Quite simple really. You're wrong.

I'm sure Volcana meant it figuratively, not literally.

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 04:27 PM
There are no evidence people were flinging racial slurs. No journalist, person in the crowd, Venus or Serena heard it. The only person who heard it is Richard Williams, who is known to be a compulsive liar.

Name 3 things Richard Williams lied about??

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 04:28 PM
By skipping it, they are basically refusing to fight for their chance to qualify for Olympics. Now their chance of qualifying is becoming pretty minor.

Garrison can pick who she wants, she is NOT BJK. I guarantee both the sisters will be there if they want to play.

*JR*
Feb 21st, 2004, 04:36 PM
:rolleyes: Where to start? Even his ex-wife said so.
Oracene also was the one who said that some in that IW crowd "took off their hoods" that day. So is she a liar, too?

:confused:

ys
Feb 21st, 2004, 04:46 PM
Garrison can pick who she wants, she is NOT BJK. I guarantee both the sisters will be there if they want to play.
Of course, she can pick who she wants. But if she will pick a Williams against the selection rankings she will be crucified and charged with racial preference. King could have afforded doing that. Garrison, I am not sure. It will be twice the scandal it was in 2000, especially given that in all probability, it will be again Raymond who'd be a victim. Besides, unless some of three ( Davenport, Capriati, Rubin ) is injured, selecting Williams sisters even for doubles pairing would have meant non-selection of Navratilova, because of the total limit of 6 players per team.

ys
Feb 21st, 2004, 05:03 PM
Venus being the "defending champion" in both single and double and Serena will surely be in the top 4 American there is no way they aren't gonna play.
Why? Serena has 0 points counted for Olympic selection at this point.




Quite franckly it would be a total joke if Rubin plays instead of Venus (or Serena).
It would be a total joke if Rubin is ranked in US Top 4, eligible, healthy, willing to play and not selected.

Volcana
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:11 PM
The only person who heard it is Richard Williams, who is known to be a compulsive liar.
Well, unless you provide evidence, you're the liar, not him. You were aaked to name three things he lied about. So far, you haven't managed one. And YOU are the liar, completely lacking in all credibility until you do.

Volcana
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:16 PM
Serena's currently the #3 American. She'd make the team anyway. Venus is currently #5 American (maybe #6, where's Shaughnessy?) and almost CAN'T make it as a singles player. She'd have to win RG, basically. If the captain wants her to play doubles, she'll pick her. But Veus already HAS Olymipc Gold in singles and doubles. It would be nice if she got to play, but it isn't like she's missing the chance of a lifetime.

ys
Feb 21st, 2004, 06:23 PM
Serena's currently the #3 American. She'd make the team anyway. Venus is currently #5 American (maybe #6, where's Shaughnessy?) and almost CAN'T make it as a singles player..
Again, you really have no clue what you are talking about. Current rankings have nothing to do with Olympic eligibility rankings. Olympic eligibility rankings are the total of points earned between Wimbledons, and Serena has 0 of those. She is like #100 American in regard to Olympic qualification, Venus at least has around 200 points earned in this january .

tennisIlove09
Feb 21st, 2004, 07:05 PM
If Venus and Serena don't want to go Indian Wells the organisaers can't do anything about it.
But I'm sure that they rather let the Williams win it than the Belgiums taking back to Belgium but again are they going to Indian Wells?
I think the question of race is a bit nonsense. People all over world saw them as Americas rather than blacks. I maybe wrong when they play in America. But what is certain is that if you are not the local player and you played against the local fav you will get boo.
Has this been brought up?

Indian Wells (USA) 2001 Finals.

Kim Clijsters (BEL) vs. Serena Williams (USA)

The boos were not directed at Kim. They were directed at Serena, the "local" player. They were directed at Richard and Venus when they took their seats. The "local" family.

faste5683
Feb 21st, 2004, 07:23 PM
Name 3 things Richard Williams lied about??

Just for the heck of it, how about a couple of embellishments?

Richard Williams on the pressures of being a tennis father: "I think I could really capitalize off Venus and Serena if I had more time. But I really do not because I do a lot of work for the Chinese peoples and the Japanese peoples and so on, representing them. As a matter of fact, we thinking now about buying Rockefeller Center for $39 billion so I don't have time to think about tennis no more."
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~edwardd/archives/00000046.htm :eek:

No slam on Richard, ALL tennis dads suck, imo. I mean, how about getting a freakin' job?

:wavey:

tennisIlove09
Feb 21st, 2004, 07:29 PM
Just for the heck of it, how about a couple of embellishments?

Richard Williams on the pressures of being a tennis father: "I think I could really capitalize off Venus and Serena if I had more time. But I really do not because I do a lot of work for the Chinese peoples and the Japanese peoples and so on, representing them. As a matter of fact, we thinking now about buying Rockefeller Center for $39 billion so I don't have time to think about tennis no more."
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~edwardd/archives/00000046.htm :eek:

No slam on Richard, ALL tennis dads suck, imo. I mean, how about getting a freakin' job?

:wavey:
Richard has a job: coaching Venus and Serena. And before injuries took over, he wasn't doing too bad. 9 of the last 13 majors; 6 of 8 all Williams finals. Not too shabby (and most of the time they were 1, 2 in the world).

Plus, I think he makes movies now...

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:15 PM
Of course, she can pick who she wants. But if she will pick a Williams against the selection rankings she will be crucified and charged with racial preference. King could have afforded doing that. Garrison, I am not sure. It will be twice the scandal it was in 2000, especially given that in all probability, it will be again Raymond who'd be a victim. Besides, unless some of three ( Davenport, Capriati, Rubin ) is injured, selecting Williams sisters even for doubles pairing would have meant non-selection of Navratilova, because of the total limit of 6 players per team.

There IS NO selection ranking. BJK invented that and she did it while SHE was captain, she is not captain anymore.

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:18 PM
Let's say he's not a liar. How do you explain he heard "if it was '75, we'd skin you alive!" and no one else around him did?

I doubt a crowd of people who are slinging racial slurs and unjustly booing Richard's daughter are going to speak up and say "I heard them tell Richard if it was '75 we would skin you alive", be realistic Cookie Box.

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:19 PM
Just for the heck of it, how about a couple of embellishments?

Richard Williams on the pressures of being a tennis father: "I think I could really capitalize off Venus and Serena if I had more time. But I really do not because I do a lot of work for the Chinese peoples and the Japanese peoples and so on, representing them. As a matter of fact, we thinking now about buying Rockefeller Center for $39 billion so I don't have time to think about tennis no more."
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~edwardd/archives/00000046.htm :eek:

No slam on Richard, ALL tennis dads suck, imo. I mean, how about getting a freakin' job?

:wavey:

Richard can't tell a joke??

LindsayRocks89
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:25 PM
Zina can pick whoever she wants to be on the team and if it was me i would pick Lindsay, Serena, Jennifer, and Venus for singles players(can someone clarify if jenny is elgible to play though?)

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:36 PM
Well I would expect at least one journalist, or one person around Richard; well just one other person than Richard telling about that... For the record it wasn't the entire crowd booing... 200 people booing at the same time can be very, very loud.

It's possible he heard it, but it's also possible he didn't. I personnaly don't trust a well known liar.

Did you hear anyone cheering for Serena throughout the match or when she won??

starr
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:37 PM
I've never heard of ANY player going back to a tournament where the crowd turned on them like that.


hmmmm. Martina went back to Roland Garros. :angel:

I guess all that means Serena won't be returning to Roland Garros either. :)

SJW
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:39 PM
you lot can say whatever you want....

one thing that remains is Serena deserved none of what she had to play through.

whatever they decide to do, go back and face the music or just stay away, i don't mind and it is up to them

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:39 PM
BTW, if we want to go there, it's fabrication by players like Elena Dementieva who put fuel to the fire at Indian Wells. The media was waiting for a player to slip up and say something like that and Dementieva took care of it.

starr
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:40 PM
they are two different incidents the crowd were howling at serena because of Venus' withdrawal - she didn t do anything wrong, I dont think the french heckling was to do with race it was just tension on court etc, if I were Serena and Venus I wouldn t return to IW either.
Not exactly true. Particularly if you were reading the local papers. There were many things not reported in the national press.

SJW
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:40 PM
hmmmm. Martina went back to Roland Garros. :angel:

I guess all that means Serena won't be returning to Roland Garros either. :)
if you can't see the differences between the incidents, then i really do pity you :lol:

starr
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:42 PM
There was no evidence of no injury...what r u talking about]?! THe wta-doctor said so himself, didnīt he?!
WTA trainer. There was an orthepedic doctor who examined her and was extensively quoted in the local paper who had the opinion she could play.

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:44 PM
Unpopular

Williams booed after Indian Wells win
Click here for more on this story
Posted: Saturday March 17, 2001 8:34 PM

Serena Williams downed Kim Clijsters 4-6, 6-4, 6-2. AP

INDIAN WELLS, Calif. (AP) -- Serena Williams was booed through most of the match and when she hugged her father and sister following her victory over Kim Clijsters in Saturday's women's final in the Masters Series tournament.

Williams, given a pass to the title match when her sister Venus withdrew from their semifinal two days earlier, lost the first three games of the match to Clijsters. But she then seemed to regain her composure and went on to a 4-6, 6-4, 6-2 victory.

Many of the 16,000 fans began booing as soon as Williams took the court, then booed again when she walked over to her father and sister at the end of the match.

"I would like to thank my father for giving me strength. You guys were a little tough on me today," Serena said as she accepted the $330,000 winner's check. "I want to thank those who supported me, and if you didn't, I love you guys anyway."

I have to break in displaying this article to give Serena props for her classy statement to the crowd.
Earlier, Pete Sampras rallied from 4-1 deficits in both sets to beat Yevgeny Kafelnikov 7-5, 6-4 and move into the men's final. Andre Agassi will face Lleyton Hewitt Saturday evening in the other men's semifinal.

Serena Williams hadn't played since Wednesday, gaining a berth in the title match when Venus pulled out of their semifinal at the last minute Thursday evening because of tendinitis in her right knee. The withdrawal disappointed the 11,000 fans who showed up for the match.

Venus had shown no sign of the ailment while winning her matches leading up to the semifinals. However, both Venus and a women's tour trainer said she was in pain and unable to play against her sister.

Venus, ranked No. 3, and Serena, No. 10, rarely play in the same tournaments except for the four Grand Slams. Venus, 20, holds a 4-1 edge against Serena, 19.

Sounding more like a cynical boxing crowd than the usual polite tennis gathering, the fans' booing built to a crescendo when Serena was introduced. As Richard and Venus Williams took their seats, they also drew loud boos.

"Usually it's a very polite crowd. I've never seen anything like it," said longtime tennis fan Vincent O'Leary.

Clijsters, a 17-year-old from Belgium, was cheered when she was introduced and during the match. The majority of the fans yelled their approval and applauded Clijsters' good shots, giving her a standing ovation when she won the first set.

There were more boos when Williams won the second, but cheers were mixed in with the boos when she won the match.

Many of the same fans were in the crowd that had awaited the Williams sisters' semifinal on Thursday night, and booed then when it was announced that Venus had withdrawn.

One of those, Lena Maxwell of England, was skeptical about Venus' late withdrawal.

"The Williamses are not bigger than tennis. It's an individual sport," Maxwell said.

After losing her quarterfinal match against Venus Williams earlier in the week, Elena Dementieva said Richard Williams would determine which sister would win their semfinal.

"I don't know what Richard thinks about it. I think he will decide who's going to win," Dementieva said when asked to predict the outcome.

Bart McGuire, CEO of the WTA Tour, immediately denied the charge, saying in a statement, "We have seen no evidence to support those assertions and both players have denied them."

Richard Williams, approached after Serena's victory, called a security guard and told him to keep the reporter away.

starr
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:44 PM
if you can't see the differences between the incidents, then i really do pity you :lol:
Of course, I see the difference between the incidents but Volana wasn't differentiating. No one is going to get booed for exactly the same incident.

Tennis players seem to be a bit thin skinned about being booed anyway. They ought to take up being a baseball player for awhile. I've heard stadiums go nuts on baseball players. Yet, they come back again and again.

starr
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:46 PM
Knizzle, I also thought Serena's comments to the crowd were very nice indeed.

However, you (or the article) left out the part where she said she was definitely coming back the next year. ;)

SJW
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:48 PM
Of course, I see the difference between the incidents but Volana wasn't differentiating. No one is going to get booed for exactly the same incident.

Tennis players seem to be a bit thin skinned about being booed anyway. They ought to take up being a baseball player for awhile. I've heard stadiums go nuts on baseball players. Yet, they come back again and again.
different......oh so different. you know the differences so i'm not gonna point them out to you :)

anyway, tennis is MEANT to be one of the "classier" sports (don't see people booing golf players...)

ys
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:52 PM
There IS NO selection ranking. BJK invented that and she did it while SHE was captain, she is not captain anymore.
Another know-it-all.. There is a selection rankings, defining eligibility of a player. Likie Player #100 won't be eligible in any case.

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:53 PM
Another know-it-all.. There is a selection rankings, defining eligibility of a player. Likie Player #100 won't be eligible in any case.

Oh, well since there is a selection ranking, can you tell me how it's done or provide a link.

*JR*
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:53 PM
There IS NO selection ranking. BJK invented that and she did it while SHE was captain, she is not captain anymore.
BJK Invented It for 2 quite specific reasons:

1) To justify the slight of Lisa Lisa for the '00 Olympic dubs.

2) To justify rewarding the horribly slumping Meghann staying on the '02 Fed Cup team for the summer world group (qualifying) tie. (Like Monica and Lisa, Meghann had backed her booting Jen in Charlotte that spring). Meghann was ONE SPOT ahead of the (as usual then, recently injured) Shonda in the world rankings.

Knizzle
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:54 PM
Knizzle, I also thought Serena's comments to the crowd were very nice indeed.

However, you (or the article) left out the part where she said she was definitely coming back the next year. ;)

That wasn't in the article. I don't need to lie or change articles to get a point across.

SJW
Feb 21st, 2004, 10:59 PM
One of those, Lena Maxwell of England, was skeptical about Venus' late withdrawal.

"The Williamses are not bigger than tennis. It's an individual sport," Maxwell said.

those Brits huh, that clever bunch :tape::)

starr
Feb 21st, 2004, 11:01 PM
BTW, if we want to go there, it's fabrication by players like Elena Dementieva who put fuel to the fire at Indian Wells. The media was waiting for a player to slip up and say something like that and Dementieva took care of it.
Knizzle, you weren't there.

There were so many factors coming together and there were so many things reported in the local press. There were so many discrepancies and half truths and just a complete cloud of confusion. There were things that both Venus and Serena said that were not accurate, and that was clearly pointed out. Venus also giggled when told there were people wanting their money back, and said, "I don't have any money to give them." Or something pretty much like that.

I think that lessons were learned by girls who may have taken direction from others. If there had just been an hour's notice, TV would not have been left high and dry. They could have moved up the men's match... so many things. People like me who were planning to see Rafter play were left high and dry after his match that was scheduled for the outside court was yanked after the players had put their gear down on the court to play. It had a domino effect all over the grounds.

Anyway, no matter what happened, prolonged booing isn't nice and shouldn't happen IMO. I also learned something in that situation that made me look at the Roland Garros crowd in a different light. It can appear that the whole stadium is booing when only a vocal minority are booing. There was NO one booing in my immediate vicinity (section). In fact, there was displeasure at the booing. The guy in front of me started cheering for Serena finally even though he had been pretty much neutral at the beginning.... cheering for both equally.

Also, I didnt' hear any racial epithets around the grounds or in the stadium. I mean, I'm a realist and I'm sure there were some uttered that I didn't hear, but in circulating in the crowd both the night of the withdrawal and the day of the final, I heard nothing like that.

I think that was 3 years ago now, and I am sure that both Venus and Serena would handle the situation differently now.

starr
Feb 21st, 2004, 11:03 PM
That wasn't in the article. I don't need to lie or change articles to get a point across.
Did I say that you needed to? I am sure the article left it out.

I only have to say what happened in real life and not in a newspaper report to get a point across. :)

SJW
Feb 21st, 2004, 11:09 PM
It can appear that the whole stadium is booing when only a vocal minority are booing.
this is correct. the wavelength of boos is (much) longer than cheers, meaning the boo waves travel further than the cheers...

Tratree
Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:05 AM
Did I say that you needed to? I am sure the article left it out.

I only have to say what happened in real life and not in a newspaper report to get a point across. :)
Exactly...if you were there, you know what all factored into what happened. It wasn't so cut and dry.

harloo
Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:23 AM
Ok, what have we established in this thread. We have established that:

1. Richard makes outrageous claims that sometimes are untrue. Sure it's true, but never have Richard ever told his daughters that it's okay to cheat and practice gamesmanship. Find the quotes on that and you will most likely not find it anywhere. So all the, "he fixed the matches theory" goes nowhere.

2. People cannot accept the fact that what happened at IW was a racial incident. Maybe you feel it's some kind of personal attack to who you are, but it still does not change the fact.

3. It's over people, it seems like we have had this discussion every year this tournament comes up. The tourney even changed it's name, but all folk want to do is argue about what happened. IMO it will go down in history and one of the most nastiest incidents in tennis, but since everyone knows that the sisters will never play there again maybe some folks should let it go.

alexusjonesfan
Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:53 AM
2. People cannot accept the fact that what happened at IW was a racial incident. Maybe you feel it's some kind of personal attack to who you are, but it still does not change the fact.


Look man, you're arguing with people who were actually there. I don't understand this concept of making up your mind and imposing it on actual witnesses to this 'event'.

flyingmachine
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:25 AM
Knizzle, you weren't there.

There were so many factors coming together and there were so many things reported in the local press. There were so many discrepancies and half truths and just a complete cloud of confusion. There were things that both Venus and Serena said that were not accurate, and that was clearly pointed out. Venus also giggled when told there were people wanting their money back, and said, "I don't have any money to give them." Or something pretty much like that.
-I do understand that some local press report stories to spice things up rather then telling the truth this is especially in America. Where media are very much self interest.

I think that lessons were learned by girls who may have taken direction from others. If there had just been an hour's notice, TV would not have been left high and dry. They could have moved up the men's match... so many things. People like me who were planning to see Rafter play were left high and dry after his match that was scheduled for the outside court was yanked after the players had put their gear down on the court to play. It had a domino effect all over the grounds.

-In a crowd situations if there is something happends the crowd will act more like a sheep than humans.

Anyway, no matter what happened, prolonged booing isn't nice and shouldn't happen IMO. I also learned something in that situation that made me look at the Roland Garros crowd in a different light. It can appear that the whole stadium is booing when only a vocal minority are booing. There was NO one booing in my immediate vicinity (section). In fact, there was displeasure at the booing. The guy in front of me started cheering for Serena finally even though he had been pretty much neutral at the beginning.... cheering for both equally.

-I saw that inccident on TV it was very ugly I think Serena was reacting too seriously which does not help if she is not reacted than it will not be as bad. In these situation the best way to cope is to igorne the booing and carry on playing but I think is hard for Serena because she's always told that "if someone is hurting you, you should hit back" but in this inccident it wasn't a wise decision.

Also, I didnt' hear any racial epithets around the grounds or in the stadium. I mean, I'm a realist and I'm sure there were some uttered that I didn't hear, but in circulating in the crowd both the night of the withdrawal and the day of the final, I heard nothing like that.

-I'm agree with you too it wasn't anything to do with race. I trust me it's very different from the booing in RG. The best example of racist booing was the football match England vs Slonvika during qufiy for Euro 2004 and that was worse worser anything you will ever heard in a tennis match.

I think that was 3 years ago now, and I am sure that both Venus and Serena would handle the situation differently now.

Sam L
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:51 AM
Codswallop!

You guys have given exactly what Volcana wants: a thread about Martin Luther King, race, social/racial discrimination discussion on general message forum, hidden under the guise of the Williams sisters/Indian Wells.

He does this EVERY year and you all fall for it. Don't be foolish.

Diya
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:55 AM
With the W/S (and most of their fans) its always about race :rolleyes:

Both the parties involved seemed to have moved on ...Its time the fans moved on too

Tplayer
Feb 22nd, 2004, 03:25 AM
The Indian Wells stunt was inexcusable and will haunt the Williams sisters for the rest of their life. They lied and cheated the fans out of tens of thousands of dollars. We don’t want them in our west coast tourneys. Actually they are paying the price for there deception and the fans are being reimbursed by their absence.

Kabezya
Feb 22nd, 2004, 03:43 AM
The Indian Wells stunt was inexcusable and will haunt the Williams sisters for the rest of their life. They lied and cheated the fans out of tens of thousands of dollars. We don’t want them in our west coast tourneys. Actually they are paying the price for there deception and the fans are being reimbursed by their absence.

I doesn't make sense... you're obviously mad that Venus pulled out. You and the west coasters do want them in your tournaments or you wouldn't be so mad :) So the Sisters aren't paying the price because they weren't and aren't the ones still holding grduges and hurt feelings over Indian Wells... it's people like you Tplayer ;)

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 22nd, 2004, 04:29 AM
Um the williams sisters moved on from this issue a week after it happened.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:18 AM
Um the williams sisters moved on from this issue a week after it happened.

Their fans didn't.

vogus
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:23 AM
As American pro tennis players (if not as people), the Williams sisters need Indian Wells more than Indian Wells needs the Williams sisters. The tournament just doesn't care that much whether they come, and it has gone on perfectly well without them. Just like tennis as a whole will go on, if the sisters decide to retire tomorrow. Will the non-Williams tennis fans miss the Williams? A little. But who's got time for nostalgia?

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:31 AM
As American pro tennis players (if not as people), the Williams sisters need Indian Wells more than Indian Wells needs the Williams sisters. The tournament just doesn't care that much whether they come, and it has gone on perfectly well without them. Just like tennis as a whole will go on, if the sisters decide to retire tomorrow. Will the non-Williams tennis fans miss the Williams? A little. But who's got time for nostalgia?

if the sisters needed that tournament that would play it. Obviously they dont need it. In fact no tennis player needs any one tournament as dokic demonstrated by skipping the aussie how many times? Like agassi demonstrated by skipping wimbledon how many times?

Kart
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:34 AM
So the sisters are not playing again.

No big surprise there.

I actually think Serena should boycott the French open as well.

Knizzle
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:37 AM
So the sisters are not playing again.

No big surprise there.

I actually think Serena should boycott the French open as well.

She doesn't want to boycott a slam, but I understand where you are coming from. I think she would rather go back and hold the trophy in front of them instead.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 05:55 AM
She doesn't want to boycott a slam, but I understand where you are coming from. I think she would rather go back and hold the trophy in front of them instead.

Nah, she'd rather not go back, but she will since the tournament is much bigger than she'll ever be.

Knizzle
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:02 AM
Nah, she'd rather not go back, but she will since the tournament is much bigger than she'll ever be.

Blatant hatin'!!

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:07 AM
Blatant hatin'!!

No, it's the truth.

Indian Wells is nothing. Nobody adds up your Indian Wells titles at the end of the day to decide how good a player you were. They will do that with the French Open, and that is why Serena is gonna play there again this year.

Hurley
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:07 AM
Well, let's try to think sensibly here. The French Open will not stop when Serena retires. It's not "hatin'," then.

Volcana
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:09 AM
It pains me, nay SICKENS me beyond common understanding to say this, but as at least three examples of Richard Williams telling untruths have been posted, I have no choice but to admit that it is not PROVEN that Hairspray Queen is a liar, completely lacking in all credibility.

Pardon me while I go vomit. God I HATE writing posts like this. The only thing that could save this entire WEEK from being rendered a total disaster after this would be Willow being run over by a bus, or Venus winning Dubai.

I feel totally wretched. I believe I will now go hurl myself into the sea.

Yuck.

Well, as the water fills my lungs and I go dwon for the third time, at least I'll no that Venus and Serena are skipping Indian Wells again.

Yet even that, as wonderful and entertaining a thought as it is, does not make up for having to withdraw my condemnation of Hairspray Queen. Life may not suck, but it IS occassionally awful beyond the capacity of mere words to convey.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:11 AM
It pains me, nay SICKENS me beyond common understanding to say this, but as at least three examples of Richard Williams telling untruths have been posted, I have no choice but to admit that it is not PROVEN that Hairspray Queen is a liar, completely lacking in all credibility.

Pardon me while I go vomit. God I HATE writing posts like this. The only thing that could save this entire WEEK from being rendered a total disaster after this would be Willow being run over by a bus, or Venus winning Dubai.

I feel totally wretched. I believe I will now go hurl myself into the sea.

Yuck.

Well, as the water fills my lungs and I go dwon for the third time, at least I'll no that Venus and Serena are skipping Indian Wells again.

Yet even that, as wonderful and entertaining a thought as it is, does not make up for having to withdraw my condemnation of Hairspray Queen. Life may not suck, but it IS occassionally awful beyond the capacity of mere words to convey.

If that's true, Volcana, then why don't you save your words for people who care?

And I noticed how he proved you wrong, and you didn't even bother to contest that. Trying to change topics, are we? Weak.

Idiot.

Volcana
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:12 AM
Their fans didn't.
The entertainment value of watching people get pissed over it doesn't fade from year to year. Now pardon me find something to do with at least a 65% chance of ending this miserable existence. After I'm dead, Hairspray Queen, I will return to get you for this.

Hurley
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:13 AM
So many strokes, so little medication.

Jeff
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:13 AM
They both normally play other California tournaments. (Last year being an exception, natch.) Their fans can see them there.
Yeah, I know. I see Venus at the Acura Classic every year...except last year, like you said.

Just the more, the better, you know :p But I fully understand why they aren't playing there. I'm just saying it sucks that us fans have to suffer from it.

Volcana
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:16 AM
And I noticed how he proved you wrong, and you didn't even bother to contest that.
He DID prove me wrong. Why would I contest that? Only a fool would. Which I guess is why you questioned that. You're stupid, but you make up for it by being unpleasant. Leave me alone to die or not in peace. Or not. But if I hang around instead, it's YOUR fault. I could drowning now.

tennisIlove09
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:17 AM
I say we end this by saying:

Venus and Serena don't need Indian Wells

and

Indian Wells doesn't need Venus or Serena.

!!!!!

Knizzle
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:17 AM
No, it's the truth.

Indian Wells is nothing. Nobody adds up your Indian Wells titles at the end of the day to decide how good a player you were. They will do that with the French Open, and that is why Serena is gonna play there again this year.

Exactly. That's what I said, but you had to make it seem like Serena was ego trippin. You could have simply agreed instead of taking a shot at Serena and her status in the tennis world.

Hurley
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:18 AM
I say we end this by saying:

Venus and Serena don't need Indian Wells

and

Indian Wells doesn't need Venus or Serena.

!!!!!

Damn straight. This is sooooooo 2001. All parties are doing great, and good for them all. :yeah:

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 07:44 AM
Exactly. That's what I said, but you had to make it seem like Serena was ego trippin. You could have simply agreed instead of taking a shot at Serena and her status in the tennis world.

Could have, but didn't.

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 07:45 AM
He DID prove me wrong. Why would I contest that? Only a fool would. Which I guess is why you questioned that. You're stupid, but you make up for it by being unpleasant. Leave me alone to die or not in peace. Or not. But if I hang around instead, it's YOUR fault. I could drowning now.

I don't know ... you contested me when I proved you wrong in your last Williams fight thread.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 22nd, 2004, 09:02 AM
Anyway, kudos to Volcana for admitting she was wrong about something. How often does this happen on the board?

Sam L
Feb 22nd, 2004, 09:10 AM
Anyway, kudos to Volcana for admitting she was wrong about something. How often does this happen on the board?
Volcana = he. The "a" at the end is a good disguise.

*JR*
Feb 22nd, 2004, 11:47 AM
We don’t want them in our west coast tourneys.
Poll results inc. Who Was surveyed, size of sample (besides you and Danny) :lol: wording of questions, etc. please? :rolleyes:

CinnamoninCinema
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:16 PM
Anyway, kudos to Volcana for admitting she was wrong about something. How often does this happen on the board?

Well, I don't know if it deserves kudos. If I didn't call him on it, he wouldn't have admitted it.

Greenout
Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:22 PM
Shouldn't this thread title be named "Indian Wells goes on quietly without
Venus & Serena"? It's not like they have money invested in this event
as promotors or anything nor is it a rare one of kind TIER 1 in the USA?

Kart
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:08 PM
She doesn't want to boycott a slam, but I understand where you are coming from. I think she would rather go back and hold the trophy in front of them instead.
I think it's a bit of a shame really. History shows that the French crowd do not forget and will probably jeer at her again. Personally I think it's a matter of principle - it's not that she needs to skip the tournament forever, just to make it clear that she won't be treated that way.

I love the French open because IMHO it produces the best matches but I do think a lot of people who go there seem to be too often too excitable. The world's best player skipping a major tournament would be a big sign - people still haven't forgiven Germany for the Monica Seles incident (although that's another story). There was a similar riot when she skipped Wimbledon in 1991.

She doesn't need the hassle - the price of potentially a couple of extra slam titles are little compared to the price of her dignity.

I would feel the same way even if she hadn't won it before but the fact that she has only shows she has even less to prove.

Or maybe I just want her out so Venus' chances of winning improve :tape:.

Volcana
Feb 22nd, 2004, 02:52 PM
Well, I don't know if it deserves kudos. If I didn't call him on it, he wouldn't have admitted it.Admitting you're wrong when you are DOESN'T deserve kudos. It should be the norm. But as for admitting anyting because of YOU, that's completely fucking ridiculous.

As long as we're throwing around the word casually, are you a liar or is it that you can't read?

Read the order of the relevant posts.

Hairspray Queen - "The only person who heard it is Richard Williams, who is known to be a compulsive liar."

Volcana - "Well, unless you provide evidence, you're the liar, not him. You were aaked to name three things he lied about. So far, you haven't managed one. And YOU are the liar, completely lacking in all credibility until you do."

Hairspray Queen (& others) proceed to list any examples

Volcana - "... at least three examples of Richard Williams telling untruths have been posted, I have no choice but to admit that it is not PROVEN that Hairspray Queen is a liar, completely lacking in all credibility."

CinnamoninCinema - (Otherwise known as complete fucking idiot who did read the above sentence) - "And I noticed how he proved you wrong, and you didn't even bother to contest that."

I said Hairspray Queen was a liar unless posting examples. Examples were posted. I posted Hairspray could not be proven a liar. Hairspray, could, of course BE a liar. This example doesn't cover the whole of Harispray Queen's existence. But certainly there's no proof of untruth is THESE posts.

I certainly wouldn't characterize my words as pleasant, or an apology. Howeer, they are specifically accurate, and directly admit that I was wrong in the first place.

God forbid I should be reduced to to admitting I was wrong about anything because of YOU.

Melly Flew Us
Feb 22nd, 2004, 03:50 PM
By skipping it, they are basically refusing to fight for their chance to qualify for Olympics. Now their chance of qualifying is becoming pretty minor.
wot:confused:

i thought the usta based olympic qualification on fed-cup participation?
wot am i missing?

Knizzle
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:08 PM
I think it's a bit of a shame really. History shows that the French crowd do not forget and will probably jeer at her again. Personally I think it's a matter of principle - it's not that she needs to skip the tournament forever, just to make it clear that she won't be treated that way.

I love the French open because IMHO it produces the best matches but I do think a lot of people who go there seem to be too often too excitable. The world's best player skipping a major tournament would be a big sign - people still haven't forgiven Germany for the Monica Seles incident (although that's another story). There was a similar riot when she skipped Wimbledon in 1991.

She doesn't need the hassle - the price of potentially a couple of extra slam titles are little compared to the price of her dignity.

I would feel the same way even if she hadn't won it before but the fact that she has only shows she has even less to prove.

Or maybe I just want her out so Venus' chances of winning improve :tape:.


You :devil: you Kart!! :tape:

*JR*
Feb 22nd, 2004, 06:59 PM
I think it's a bit of a shame really. History shows that the French crowd do not forget and will probably jeer at her again.... Zerena ZOH could have played ze role of ze late, great Josephine Baker (early 20th Century hot-hot-hot black actress who emigrated from "Jim Crow America" to An Adoring France) @ RG '03. But she used zeese faux French ac-SENT & sacre bleu! Just une more Arrogant Ameri-CAN, like zat capri-a-TEE wiz zee Bombs ova bagh-DAD! :eek:

DA FOREHAND
Feb 22nd, 2004, 07:15 PM
Knizzle, you weren't there.

There were so many factors coming together and there were so many things reported in the local press. There were so many discrepancies and half truths and just a complete cloud of confusion. There were things that both Venus and Serena said that were not accurate, and that was clearly pointed out. Venus also giggled when told there were people wanting their money back, and said, "I don't have any money to give them." Or something pretty much like that.

I think that lessons were learned by girls who may have taken direction from others. If there had just been an hour's notice, TV would not have been left high and dry. They could have moved up the men's match... so many things. People like me who were planning to see Rafter play were left high and dry after his match that was scheduled for the outside court was yanked after the players had put their gear down on the court to play. It had a domino effect all over the grounds.

Anyway, no matter what happened, prolonged booing isn't nice and shouldn't happen IMO. I also learned something in that situation that made me look at the Roland Garros crowd in a different light. It can appear that the whole stadium is booing when only a vocal minority are booing. There was NO one booing in my immediate vicinity (section). In fact, there was displeasure at the booing. The guy in front of me started cheering for Serena finally even though he had been pretty much neutral at the beginning.... cheering for both equally.

Also, I didnt' hear any racial epithets around the grounds or in the stadium. I mean, I'm a realist and I'm sure there were some uttered that I didn't hear, but in circulating in the crowd both the night of the withdrawal and the day of the final, I heard nothing like that.

I think that was 3 years ago now, and I am sure that both Venus and Serena would handle the situation differently now.


Seems to me instead of accusing Knizzle of doctoring an article that you would attempt to back up your "claims" with a little more than hear say!

Martina Hingis' doctor said that he thinks she could play w/out pain...i've never heard you dispute Martina's claim that she couldn't. Double standard, or just incredibly selective?

starr
Feb 23rd, 2004, 01:49 PM
So the sisters are not playing again.

No big surprise there.

I actually think Serena should boycott the French open as well.
That's always been my position. ;)

I wonder what would happen with the fans if Serena let it be known that she wouldn't return to any tournament where she got booed.

starr
Feb 23rd, 2004, 01:57 PM
Seems to me instead of accusing Knizzle of doctoring an article that you would attempt to back up your "claims" with a little more than hear say!

Martina Hingis' doctor said that he thinks she could play w/out pain...i've never heard you dispute Martina's claim that she couldn't. Double standard, or just incredibly selective?
Excuse me, I was not accusing Knizzle of doctoring an article. I think I explained that completely. I thought the article left it out. I was simply pointing that out.

Martina Hingis's doctor said that she could play without further injury to her ankle. He did not say that she was pain free. He said that how much pain a she could take was up to her.

I don't know what was going on with Venus. I was only pointing out that there were reports in the newspapers that led one to believe that it was not clear cut. As people choose up sides, they tend to filter out any contraindicating information. I'm only saying that there was a lot of confusion at the time.

Also my personal reports from what I saw and heard are not hearsay, but nearly everything posted here by others who were not at the event is hearsay. Even those who saw it on television were dependent on what the cameras showed and the microphones picked up.

I'm not minimizing. I don't think it should have happened like that. I think Serena performed admirably under the circumstances and gave a very nice speech at the end when she told the crowd she loved them anyway and would return the next year.

DA FOREHAND
Feb 23rd, 2004, 02:24 PM
You were simply speculating, only Venus and the trainer knew the extent of her injury. Unless you gave Venus a medical exam, then you are going on hear say, as you don't know the facts.

In any event that mob of fans was dead wrong to boo Serena throughout her match, they proved to be the worst crowd in tennis history. I hope they never return.

p.s. Do you think race had anything to do w/the crowds reaction?

Knizzle
Feb 23rd, 2004, 03:07 PM
Excuse me, I was not accusing Knizzle of doctoring an article. I think I explained that completely. I thought the article left it out. I was simply pointing that out.

Martina Hingis's doctor said that she could play without further injury to her ankle. He did not say that she was pain free. He said that how much pain a she could take was up to her.

I don't know what was going on with Venus. I was only pointing out that there were reports in the newspapers that led one to believe that it was not clear cut. As people choose up sides, they tend to filter out any contraindicating information. I'm only saying that there was a lot of confusion at the time.

Also my personal reports from what I saw and heard are not hearsay, but nearly everything posted here by others who were not at the event is hearsay. Even those who saw it on television were dependent on what the cameras showed and the microphones picked up.

I'm not minimizing. I don't think it should have happened like that. I think Serena performed admirably under the circumstances and gave a very nice speech at the end when she told the crowd she loved them anyway and would return the next year.


What you say is just as much hearsay as the next person.

Paneru
Feb 23rd, 2004, 03:12 PM
It's Over
It's Done
They're Not Playing!

Game Over
End Of Story!

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 23rd, 2004, 05:42 PM
It's Over
It's Done
They're Not Playing!

Game Over
End Of Story!
LoL it would be funny if they played. I think it would cause more controversy if they actually did play.

Paneru
Feb 23rd, 2004, 05:44 PM
LoL it would be funny if they played. I think it would cause more controversy if they actually did play.

Now that would be somethin'!

GANGSTABACKHAND!
Feb 23rd, 2004, 06:04 PM
'nuff Said!!!

"you're Damned If You Do, And Damned If U Don't"

It Does Not Make Sense To Try To Please People Who Hate You, No Matter What You Do, They Will Find A Way To Put You Down Every Time!!!

The Thing About Life. It Allows Certain Things To Happen, And During These Times The True Feeling That Are In Our Heart Come Pouring Out. The Incidents At The French And Indian Wells Said A Lot About What Resides In The Hearts Of A Lot Of People. Call It Whatever You Want, But To Mistreat Or Boo A Player Simply Because She Is Injured And Can't Play Is Wrong. I Applaud Venus And Serena For Not Going Back Because If Either One Of Them Is Injured And Can't Play A Match Again At That Tournament The Ignorance Of These Fans Will Show Again!!!

DA FOREHAND
Feb 23rd, 2004, 06:38 PM
IT's quite simple...Why play where you're not appreciated?

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 23rd, 2004, 09:25 PM
Since Volcana is one of the very few people on the board who will admit it when wrong about something, I think it does deserve kudos. It should be normal behaviour but I'm afraid it isn't. Though they are much maligned, Volcana and bandabou are two of the posters here whom I respect because they make some effort to find the truth rather than just digging in and defending a position.

As far as I can see, Starr is largely giving us direct evidence: "I was there; this is what I saw and heard." That is the exact opposite of hearsay. It has certainly convinced me that what happened at Indian Wells was not as bad as I'd previously imagined from what I'd heard (which does not mean that the booing was acceptable; obviously it wasn't, and I don't blame Serena and Venus for not wanting to go back).

alfajeffster
Feb 23rd, 2004, 09:34 PM
I wonder what the executives at ESPN have to say about the whole thing...

DeDe4925
Feb 23rd, 2004, 10:54 PM
Admitting you're wrong when you are DOESN'T deserve kudos. It should be the norm. But as for admitting anyting because of YOU, that's completely fucking ridiculous.

As long as we're throwing around the word casually, are you a liar or is it that you can't read?

Read the order of the relevant posts.

Hairspray Queen - "The only person who heard it is Richard Williams, who is known to be a compulsive liar."

Volcana - "Well, unless you provide evidence, you're the liar, not him. You were aaked to name three things he lied about. So far, you haven't managed one. And YOU are the liar, completely lacking in all credibility until you do."

Hairspray Queen (& others) proceed to list any examples

Volcana - "... at least three examples of Richard Williams telling untruths have been posted, I have no choice but to admit that it is not PROVEN that Hairspray Queen is a liar, completely lacking in all credibility."

CinnamoninCinema - (Otherwise known as complete fucking idiot who did read the above sentence) - "And I noticed how he proved you wrong, and you didn't even bother to contest that."

I said Hairspray Queen was a liar unless posting examples. Examples were posted. I posted Hairspray could not be proven a liar. Hairspray, could, of course BE a liar. This example doesn't cover the whole of Harispray Queen's existence. But certainly there's no proof of untruth is THESE posts.

I certainly wouldn't characterize my words as pleasant, or an apology. Howeer, they are specifically accurate, and directly admit that I was wrong in the first place.

God forbid I should be reduced to to admitting I was wrong about anything because of YOU.
Hairspray proved that he lied on a couple of occasions and who hasn't. She still didnt' prove that he was a compulsive liar. BIG DIFFERENCE!

DeDe4925
Feb 23rd, 2004, 10:57 PM
"Hairspray Queen" is a Nirvana song, I'm a "he". And :rolleyes: liar or compulsive liar, whatever, it changes nothing to the point.
lol, whatever dude! :rolleyes:

Diya
Feb 23rd, 2004, 11:31 PM
I wonder what would happen with the fans if Serena let it be known that she wouldn't return to any tournament where she got booed.

She'd be booed everywhere she went/played ..........:tape:

MrSerenaWilliams
Feb 24th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Nah...Venus is already there.....

With 6 Grand Slam Singles Titles (4 in a row), over 12 million in prize money, and 8 other Grand Slam Titles (just 2 mixed doubles titles away from career grand slams in every discipline), Serena is leading the Williams' charge to Newpor!

vettipooh
Feb 24th, 2004, 01:45 AM
Unless we 'walk a mile' in Venus and Serena's shoes,we will never understand how they feel.They don't need IW to determine their self worth.serena proved that by defeating Kim,in the presence of an absolutely horrible and insensitive crowd.We must admit that had they been two white players, the crowd would have had a different reaction.Race played its role, to whatever extent, and anyone who thinks otherwise,is in denial.there are many people,I'm sure, who would like to see tennis revert to an all white sport.Acceptace is still a b****.

Sam L
Feb 24th, 2004, 02:22 AM
Unless we 'walk a mile' in Venus and Serena's shoes,we will never understand how they feel.They don't need IW to determine their self worth.serena proved that by defeating Kim,in the presence of an absolutely horrible and insensitive crowd.We must admit that had they been two white players, the crowd would have had a different reaction.Race played its role, to whatever extent, and anyone who thinks otherwise,is in denial.there are many people,I'm sure, who would like to see tennis revert to an all white sport.Acceptace is still a b****.
The crowd didn't buy into the whole "Venus was injured in the last minute" thing. They felt they were cheated out of a match, and turned against the ENTIRE Williams family and it was Serena out on court that final so they turned on her.

Would've happened to a white family too, if they felt they were cheated.

Volcana
Feb 24th, 2004, 02:28 AM
Would've happened to a white family too, if they felt they were cheated.
You actually believe that. Pitiful.

ys
Feb 24th, 2004, 02:33 AM
The crowd didn't buy into the whole "Venus was injured in the last minute" thing.
Who ever bought into that? She was playing 100% healthy in Miami in just few days after that. Tendonitis my @ss..

Sam L
Feb 24th, 2004, 02:34 AM
You actually believe that. Pitiful.
Yes I believe it because I'm not paranoid and I'm rational enough to realize that there are other tennis tournaments across America including states like: Connecticut, South Carolina, Florida, California, New York, etc etc... and there hasn't been such showings of "booings" from fans. It's Serena and Venus playing there too.

Or what are you saying, that Indian Wells has the highest % of tennis racists in all of America? Purrleeze! Listen to yourselves. :rolleyes:

It's got everything to do with what happened the day before that final, and if you are still in denial after all these years, then I don't know. Seek help.

The sisters probably feel too embarassed to go back there because they know they pulled a "stunt".

Now I like Venus and Serena as much as anyone but I can the point of view of the crowd, and they weren't racially motivated.

Knizzle
Feb 24th, 2004, 02:57 AM
The truth is more complex... I mean statement like "it's a racist incident!" or "it wasn't racially motivated!" are both untrue and too general. Some people felt they were cheated, some people are stupid and booed because other people booed, some people disdain the Williams family partly because they are black, I could go on. Each person has his own way to think and had his own motivation. Besides, we can all agree that the incident was deplorable; why do the motivations matter?

Why do we need hate crime laws in America then??

Knizzle
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:00 AM
What does it have to do with my reply; was the incident a hate crime punishable by law?No, but if we ignore the motives of deplorable acts. we won't do anything to change them.

ys
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:01 AM
The truth is more complex... I mean statement like "it's a racist incident!" or "it wasn't racially motivated!" are both untrue and too general. Some people felt they were cheated, some people are stupid and booed because other people booed, some people disdain the Williams family partly because they are black, I could go on. Each person has his own way to think and had his own motivation. Besides, we can all agree that the incident was deplorable; why do the motivations matter?
I agree. Unfortunately Williamses seem to have too single-dimensional personality to understand that and they keep on punishing their own Californian fans.

Knizzle
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:02 AM
I agree. Unfortunately Williamses seem to have too single-dimensional personality to understand that and they keep on punishing their own Californian fans.

Venus and Serena are both playing in California this year.

ys
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:08 AM
Venus and Serena are both playing in California this year.
They do? I thought that they haven't played in there for 15+ monthes and .. They both "were playing" in California last year too, but ended up not playing. It may well happen this year again, given that it's Olympic season.

Knizzle
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:14 AM
They do? I thought that they haven't played in there for 15+ monthes and .. They both "were playing" in California last year too, but ended up not playing. It may well happen this year again, given that it's Olympic season.

They were injured when the Cali tournaments were played last year besides Indian Wells.

ys
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:25 AM
They were injured when the Cali tournaments were played last year besides Indian Wells.
It might happen this year again. Easily. Wasting an opportunity to play a prime tournament while not injured is not something I understand.

Knizzle
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:28 AM
It might happen this year again. Easily. Wasting an opportunity to play a prime tournament while not injured is not something I understand.

I guess it's beyond your comprehension.

Cybelle Darkholme
Feb 24th, 2004, 03:29 AM
My god the level of intelligence seems to drop when people like ys and sam enter the thread.

NO one is being punished. If fans want to see venus or serena or whoever they simply have to find a tournament said player is playing. Its really simple.

If venus and serena were not sisters and venus had withdrew there would not have been any incident whatsoever. They were attacked by the crowd because they are sisters and the people assumed because they are sisters that one was letting the other get a freebie into the final. Sounds like warped thinking to me and anyone who thinks that way is pathetic and basically is saying that THEY would do that and that they have no ethics.

venus should have let the touranment directors know sooner however she is not the only player to withdraw minutes before or even minutes into a match.

Volcana
Feb 24th, 2004, 04:19 AM
Yes I believe it because I'm not paranoid and I'm rational enough to realize that there are other tennis tournaments across America including states like: Connecticut, South Carolina, Florida, California, New York, etc etc... and there hasn't been such showings of "booings" from fans. It's Serena and Venus playing there too.

Or what are you saying, that Indian Wells has the highest % of tennis racists in all of America? Purrleeze! Listen to yourselves. :rolleyes:

It's got everything to do with what happened the day before that final, and if you are still in denial after all these years, then I don't know. Seek help.

The sisters probably feel too embarassed to go back there because they know they pulled a "stunt".

Now I like Venus and Serena as much as anyone but I can the point of view of the crowd, and they weren't racially motivated.
Pitiful. just fucking pitiful. You'd stab out your own eyes rather than give up willful blindness. It would be amazing if it weren't so fucking sad.

Volcana
Feb 24th, 2004, 04:22 AM
IT's quite simple...Why play where you're not appreciated?
Actually, Venus has said that DOES expect to play there again 'sometime in the future'. The future just doens't happen to be 2004. Given I'm a fan of Venus, i naturally support her decision either way.

Volcana
Feb 24th, 2004, 04:35 AM
Besides, we can all agree that the incident was deplorable; why do the motivations matter?
My opinion of you is rising. I must be off my meds.

'Why do motivations matter?' Hmmm ..... good question. I find myself thinking of Mel Gibson's new film. Perhaps because 'motivation' oten goes hand-in-hand with 'viewpoint'. If you're Jewish, this is a re-telling of a story that's been used to kill and steal from your people repeatedly over the last 20 centuries. If you're a member of certain Christian dinominations, it's a documentary.

It's the same film. But viewpoint casue a difference in perception.

So too with the motivation of the crowd at Indian Wells in 2003.

If you're Black, you've seen far too many screaming mobs of white people surrounding Blacks, along with far too many instances of whites saying 'race had nothing to do with it', to even take such pronouncements seriously. They are at best ignorant, and at worst malicious.

If you're White, well, I'm not, so I haven't a clue, I suppose. I can't view any of these 'race had nothing to do with it' comments as honest. It's just a question of if they're ignorant or malicious.

But if the crowd is motivated by race, then Venus and Serena are, to an extent, risking there lives out there. Of course, that's why they have martial arts training and bodyguards. And it doesn't take a whole crowd. There was only one of Gunther Parche. Are the odds of the next Gunther Parche higher when the whole crowd is screaming at you.

Well, 5000 to 1 odds must seem a bit intimidating, and it only takes ONE of those 5000 to act on their hate.

Motivation probably IS important.

Sorry I rambled.

Volcana
Feb 24th, 2004, 04:37 AM
It might happen this year again. Easily. Wasting an opportunity to play a prime tournament while not injured is not something I understand.
You mean like Toray Pan Pacific, or Moscow? Both Tier I's. Both usually have relatively weak fields. Becasue quite a few players are 'wasting an opportunity to play a prime tournament while not injured'.

Volcana
Feb 24th, 2004, 04:40 AM
They do? I thought that they haven't played in there for 15+ monthes and .. They both "were playing" in California last year too, but ended up not playing.

Neither of them played THE REST OF THE YEAR, remember? Wimbledon was it for both of them.

ys
Feb 24th, 2004, 05:15 AM
You mean like Toray Pan Pacific, or Moscow? Both Tier I's. Both usually have relatively weak fields. Becasue quite a few players are 'wasting an opportunity to play a prime tournament while not injured'.
Both tournaments have less than perfect timeslot. Very few players care about anything a week after the Slam. Very few players care about anything after US Open. IW has a prime timeslot and it is 96 draw. It is One of the Top 7 tournaments of the year ( 4 Slams, YEC, Miami and IW ). It is the second prestigious regular Tour event after Miami.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 24th, 2004, 05:35 AM
Pitiful. just fucking pitiful. You'd stab out your own eyes rather than give up willful blindness. It would be amazing if it weren't so fucking sad.
I'd expect better of you than this, Volcana. What Sam L said was not "fucking pitiful". It didn't convince you, but it was not an unreasonable argument to put. He has a right to put a case that you disagree with.

Why can't we all just lurrrve each other? :devil:

esquímaux
Feb 24th, 2004, 06:18 AM
you people are just :yawn: but i :hearts: ya'll anyway ;)