Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 12th, 2012, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

A few years ago, I think Chris fans breathed a collective sigh of relief when Rafa's winning streak on clay ended. I can't remember when or the match.

Now he has 7 Roland Garros titles! Unbelievable. It's very realistic that he will get one more.

I can't believe that a men's record for most slams at a Grand Slam will now be more than a women's record.

He is really a great on the surface and the only female players I think that are up there with him on clay are Evert (overall career) and Seles (at her peak before the stabbing).

What do you all think?
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 12th, 2012, 01:41 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

We mustn't forget Suzanne Lenglen and her great clay court prowess. But yes, Nadal is awesome on clay ... scarily so. I can see him winning several more!

Evert's record is safe for the women. Hard enough to compare eras without comparing the sexes. Both are legends

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2012, 08:39 AM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

Mmmm, unlike Evert, Nadal did not skip the French Open at the height of his dominance (1976-78)!

While I think Nadal is a great player, and I do like him for his own individual style, I am not so sure that I consider him a great claycourt player per se. I think in terms of claycourt prowess, I would go for the likes of Bjorn Borg, Miloslav Mecir or perennial BFTP favourite Guillermo Coria. I think much of Nadal's greatness can be attributed to (1) modern rackets (2) modern strings (3) modern [let's just say "training techniques and medical advancement"]. The fact that he is great, of course, is shown by how well he moves from clay to the grass of Wimbledon and really plays well on that surface as well.

Moving to the women, I cannot believe that Shriekipops won the French Open. In fact, what I find worse than Nadal equalling Evert's record is the fact that if banana-loving Maria wins another French Open, she will have the same number of singles titles as Martina Navratilova! Of course, every time Martina played the French there was also another player in the draw called Chris Evert, not a whole load of flakey "screamerupovas"... But viewing the way the women carry on, the errorfests and the complete inability to finish off an opponent, I actually begin to seriously think: could Chris Evert or Martina Navratilova still win a grand slam today?!? I know one thing: seeing Chris in her colour-coordinated Ellesse outfits + headband or Martina in her dashing Teddy Tinling dresses would be a hell of a sight better than those horrible, sweaty, nylon-looking things the gals of today wear (why?? it may make them seem more masculine, if that is what they are after, but no one rocked the dikey look with such style and simultaneous femininity as Martina and Chris back in the mid-80s).
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2012, 06:51 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
A few years ago, I think Chris fans breathed a collective sigh of relief when Rafa's winning streak on clay ended. I can't remember when or the match.

Now he has 7 Roland Garros titles! Unbelievable. It's very realistic that he will get one more.

I can't believe that a men's record for most slams at a Grand Slam will now be more than a women's record.

He is really a great on the surface and the only female players I think that are up there with him on clay are Evert (overall career) and Seles (at her peak before the stabbing).

What do you all think?
It's a men's record, so this discussion is womewhat irrelevant.
Honestly I breathed a real sigh of relief when Justin Henin retired. I really thought that after she won her 4th RG titles that she would be able equal or even beat Chris' record.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2012, 07:17 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

It's almost a certainty that Nadal will win more Frenchies-perhaps the next record in danger is Margaret Court's all-time record of 11 singles slams in one major.

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While I think Nadal is a great player, and I do like him for his own individual style, I am not so sure that I consider him a great claycourt player per se. I think in terms of claycourt prowess, I would go for the likes of Bjorn Borg, Miloslav Mecir or perennial BFTP favourite Guillermo Coria. I think much of Nadal's greatness can be attributed to (1) modern rackets (2) modern strings (3) modern [let's just say "training techniques and medical advancement"]. The fact that he is great, of course, is shown by how well he moves from clay to the grass of Wimbledon and really plays well on that surface as well.
I had to chuckle at that Sumarokov-Elston

Every era is different of course. As Mcenroe said covering Nadal the day, Borg was just as much of a terror on clay in his day. I'll never forget Bjorn just crushing Vilas on clay at the 1978 French the year AFTER Vilas ran up a huge clay streak. Had Borg not burnt out or coked up I wonder how many Roland Garros titles he'd have.

I agree with you on #3 too I'm afraid. I love Nadal's personality, but would I be shocked if there was something in the cheerios Uncle Tony has told him to eat every day? No. Give the Spanaird his due though, he stays hungry and focused-I like Rafa.

Moving on to Chris, one modern record NOT in any danger is her 125 match win streak on clay.

Did anyone else notice the other commentators calling her "Chrissie" throughout the French? I wonder if she is goign by "Chrissie" rather than Chris now.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2012, 10:50 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
It's almost a certainty that Nadal will win more Frenchies-perhaps the next record in danger is Margaret Court's all-time record of 11 singles slams in one major...
And we know that most of Nadals titles have already come when nobody played, so he's got the right formula.

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2012, 08:17 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

Nadal is greater on clay than any women. Evert dominated most on clay from 74-80 when there was literally no good clay players who werent already 32 or older other than Evonne to a minor extent. Graf and Seles were never nearly as dominant on clay as Nadal now.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 2012, 03:22 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Nadal is greater on clay than any women. Evert dominated most on clay from 74-80 when there was literally no good clay players who werent already 32 or older other than Evonne to a minor extent. Graf and Seles were never nearly as dominant on clay as Nadal now.
Well, based on his total amount of majors your argument is a good one IMO. 7 out of 8 French titles is hard to surpass in any era.

But as Sumarokov-Elston points out, there are some factors in his dominance. Just as Chris only had Evonne, who does Nadal have as a rival on clay? To me it's a sort of chicken vs egg argument. Does Rafa's (or Chris's) great record rest on their amazing abilities, or on circumstances favorable to them?

To me there are good arguments for both sides.

Frankly I don't see Nadal winning all those French titles vs Borg, for example. Bjorn would simply loop back enough balls (as would Rafa) until one or the other dropped dead. And unlike Chris, he has lost on clay outside the French where conditions vary and it's 2 out of 3 sets vs 3 of 5.

And lets be just as honest-Chris would be hard pressed to be unbeaten for 125 consecutive matches on clay vs the likes of Seles, Graf, or Henin under "modern" post-wood conditions.

Whatever one thinks I tip my hat to both for their amazing feats of clay!
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 2012, 02:39 AM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

records should always come with the narrative, so that young fans are not lost. Chris Evert skipped both the French Open (the major and surface where she was most dominant) and the Australian Open for three years, when she was untouchable on clay and the consensus No. 1 player in the world, at the height of her powers, so she could concentrate on Wimbledon and the US Open. Can any player today do that? Evert could easily have won 2 of those FO's, maybe all three, and at least one AO. Her GS total could have been 21 or 22 instead of 18.

Unfortunately, the record books don't provide space for asterisks and narratives. That's why Evert's fans need to keep reminding people what happened.

I think Evert's 125-match winning streak on clay is safe.

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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 2012, 02:57 AM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Originally Posted by Sumarokov-Elston View Post
Mmmm, unlike Evert, Nadal did not skip the French Open at the height of his dominance (1976-78)!

While I think Nadal is a great player, and I do like him for his own individual style, I am not so sure that I consider him a great claycourt player per se. I think in terms of claycourt prowess, I would go for the likes of Bjorn Borg, Miloslav Mecir or perennial BFTP favourite Guillermo Coria. I think much of Nadal's greatness can be attributed to (1) modern rackets (2) modern strings (3) modern [let's just say "training techniques and medical advancement"]. The fact that he is great, of course, is shown by how well he moves from clay to the grass of Wimbledon and really plays well on that surface as well.

Moving to the women, I cannot believe that Shriekipops won the French Open. In fact, what I find worse than Nadal equalling Evert's record is the fact that if banana-loving Maria wins another French Open, she will have the same number of singles titles as Martina Navratilova! Of course, every time Martina played the French there was also another player in the draw called Chris Evert, not a whole load of flakey "screamerupovas"... But viewing the way the women carry on, the errorfests and the complete inability to finish off an opponent, I actually begin to seriously think: could Chris Evert or Martina Navratilova still win a grand slam today?!? I know one thing: seeing Chris in her colour-coordinated Ellesse outfits + headband or Martina in her dashing Teddy Tinling dresses would be a hell of a sight better than those horrible, sweaty, nylon-looking things the gals of today wear (why?? it may make them seem more masculine, if that is what they are after, but no one rocked the dikey look with such style and simultaneous femininity as Martina and Chris back in the mid-80s).
This.
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 2012, 05:07 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Well, based on his total amount of majors your argument is a good one IMO. 7 out of 8 French titles is hard to surpass in any era.

But as Sumarokov-Elston points out, there are some factors in his dominance. Just as Chris only had Evonne, who does Nadal have as a rival on clay? To me it's a sort of chicken vs egg argument.
Nadal has had Federer and Djokovic for years as rivals on clay. Federer most regard a top 10 clay courter all time, some would say top 6. Djokovic will likely become a top 10 or better clay courter all time by careers end, and he has been an excellent clay courter since 2008 atleast now, continously held back by Nadal mostly (Federer to some degree). That is head and shoulders above anything Chris had until 1982 atleast. Even after that you had solid performers like Coria (until 2006), Ferrero, Davydenko, Nalbandian. Who was Chris's biggest rival on clay in the mid to late 70s after Goolagong. Virginia Ruzica? 35 year old semi retired Nancy Richey. No offense but what a joke.

Quote:
Does Rafa's (or Chris's) great record rest on their amazing abilities, or on circumstances favorable to them?
Both would be great clay courters in any era. However Rafa did have tough competition on clay always. Chris had no competition on clay from 1974 to 1981.

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Frankly I don't see Nadal winning all those French titles vs Borg, for example. Bjorn would simply loop back enough balls (as would Rafa) until one or the other dropped dead. And unlike Chris, he has lost on clay outside the French where conditions vary and it's 2 out of 3 sets vs 3 of 5.
Borg and Nadal are the two best clay courters ever so they would have to be insanely unlucky to have ever been born in close to the same year. Nadal's clay competition is fine, it is as tough as most people had, and tougher than what Borg had. The 1974-1979 clay court field for women (possibly for men too come to think of it) is bar none the worst in tennis history, including even the post Henin years on clay year. Just look at the French Open winners from 1976-1978, and I dont care if a few people didnt play.

Quote:
And lets be just as honest-Chris would be hard pressed to be unbeaten for 125 consecutive matches on clay vs the likes of Seles, Graf, or Henin under "modern" post-wood conditions.
Without a doubt. Meanwhile Nadal would have duplicated most of his current stats in any era. Only if you put him in the era of peak Borg or peak Rosewall might he have suffered even a bit from his current record, but they would likely have suffered even more, since he is even better than they are. Chris meanwhile would have not even approached her current stats on clay peaking in the era with Court, Richey, Jones, all as clay competition, or with prime Navratilova and even prime Mandlikova and young Austin as competition on clay, basically any era except 1974-1979, that is probably the only time in history she could manage something like 6 years unbeaten on clay, even as great as she was on the surface. Certainly least of all in the era of Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, and others which was the deepest and strongest clay court field ever, and why I think you could even make an argument Graf is the greatest women clay courter despite winning only 6 French Opens and the Seles stabbing, or perhaps Seles herself, but that is another topic. Either way Nadal >>>>> any man or women in history on clay.

Last edited by mistymore; Jun 19th, 2012 at 05:13 PM.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 2012, 05:18 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Originally Posted by Sumarokov-Elston View Post
Mmmm, unlike Evert, Nadal did not skip the French Open at the height of his dominance (1976-78)!

While I think Nadal is a great player, and I do like him for his own individual style, I am not so sure that I consider him a great claycourt player per se. I think in terms of claycourt prowess, I would go for the likes of Bjorn Borg, Miloslav Mecir or perennial BFTP favourite Guillermo Coria.
Yes Mecir who only got destroyed badly in 2 slam finals in his career is a great clay courter, and the all time winningest clay courter is not. Coria who at his peak was getting outplayed by 18 year old Nadal on clay is also the great clay courter that Nadal is not. Arent you the same one who said Henin wasnt a top 20 clay courter all time, haha. What planet are you from my friend.
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 2012, 06:17 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Federer most regard a top 10 clay courter all time, some would say top 6.
Then MOST need a good lesson in tennis history.

Top 6 of all time? With 1-as in uno French Opens? And that one without beating Rafa? I think not. By that standard Martina, with 2 French Opens, beating Evert, should be top 3! And Serana, with 2, should also be top 6...e

Are you prepared to argue that? Or assume that Martina would have won all those French titles if only Chris had not been in the way? I'd wager Roger would have won more French Opens wihout Nadal around, but we'll never know and there's no way of knowing for sure.

The argument is purely speculative, just like any argument a Seles fan throws up saying Seles would have continued to beat Steffi like bongo drums in slams outside of Wimbledon after 1993 is purely speculative.

Roger got schooled by Kuerten in straights in 2004-the same year he won the other 3 majors.

So before we go any further are you still convinced Federer was or is some top 6 (or even top 10) player of all-time on clay?

Last edited by Rollo; Jun 20th, 2012 at 12:38 PM.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 2012, 07:08 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

[QUOTE=lakan kildap;21667306]records should always come with the narrative, so that young fans are not lost. Chris Evert skipped both the French Open (the major and surface where she was most dominant) and the Australian Open for three years, when she was untouchable on clay and the consensus No. 1 player in the world, at the height of her powers, so she could concentrate on Wimbledon and the US Open. Can any player today do that? Evert could easily have won 2 of those FO's, maybe all three, and at least one AO. Her GS total could have been 21 or 22 instead of 18.

A very interesting and valid point.Yes I think Evert would have won Roland Garros 1976-1978.A superb champion on clay.To balance it though remember she was a little lucky in the US Open switching to clay(albeit green clay) 1975-1977 in an era when there were no other other real clay court experts.Had that tournament stayed on grass at Forest Hills she would not have been a guaranteed winner for all 3 titles.One sort of compensatesthe other.(For good measure she did win the USO in 1978 on hardcourt!)
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 2012, 07:15 PM
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Re: Nadal is coming after our Chrissie's records

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post

Did anyone else notice the other commentators calling her "Chrissie" throughout the French? I wonder if she is going by "Chrissie" rather than Chris now.
ever since i've known her, she's been called chrissie - I rarely hear anyone call her chris... That said, she did call her book from 1981 'chrissie'...
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