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post #1 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 20th, 2012, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

HI EVERYONE! IS ANYONE (OR EVERYONE) WATCHING THIS SPECIAL.. STARTED YESTERDAY ON TENNIS CHANNEL WITH THE LIST OF #71 TO 100 GREATEST PLAYERS....

I THINK TODAY/TONIGHT ( TUESDAY, MARCH 20TH) WILL HAVE THE PLAYERS LISTED FROM 40/41 TO 70...

seemed kind of loaded with male players as opposed to women, or maybe that was just my perception i didn't actually count how many men vs women there were between 71 to 100...

not exactly pleased with jack nicklaus being the "host" of this.. i mean why him? they couldn't find a tennis historian/dignity that could host the list? and no i'm not talking bud collins, mary carillo, cliff drysdale or the usual cast of characters.. heck, i could listen to steve flink.. of course he's not a "name" like nicklaus and all time great ( perhaps the greatest) in his individual sport..

the criteria is kind of mystery too! i mean.. who is judging and made up this list? they haven't said! all they said are historians, former and current players, and so on.. but who really and how many?..

and is it based on actual talent and play as well as titles and longevity or what.. i mean, they (the commentator voice over person) says it's both... but to what percentage is given to what? everything equal?

ann haydon jones at #99 started the women' list.. included in the list from 71 to 100 were shirly fry irvin ( good for her), pauline betz, sharapova, kutznetsova (?), mauresmo (?) and a few others...

of course this whole list and show will be a HUGE WELLSPRING OF DEBATE HEATED DEBATE I MIGHT ADD! perhaps this show should have just listed the top players the top 100 of all time in alphabetical order instead of actually TRYING to list them in order based on who was greater than the other..

it's impossible to do that as well on this board all know and kind of silly to try!...

i'm guessing the top women ( in no order) will be graf, navratilova, evert, court, king, serena williams, maureen connolly and who else? lenglen, wills, venus,seles?....
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post #2 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 21st, 2012, 04:28 AM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

We will have to see the whole list before we get a full picture-but based on what I've seen so far it's as "bad" a list as I feared.

Once example: I love and adore Virginia Wade. but there's no way, and I mean NO way, she should be ranked above Louise Brough, for example. And ranking a man in the open era (Chang or Roddick) who has won 1 slam as 1 of the 50- greatest men of all time is just laughable.

Faults aside, at least it will bring some light to forgotten greats. And I've learned some neat info-such as Hana Mandlikova's mother dated Martina Navratilova's father, and that Maria Bueno's English sounds like it has little or no accent!

Last edited by Rollo; Mar 21st, 2012 at 04:43 AM.
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post #3 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 21st, 2012, 04:39 AM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

Here's the list so far

100 – Michael Chang, USA
99 – Ann Haydon Jones, GBR
98 – Henry Bunny Austin, GBR
97 – Pat Cash, AUS
96 – Manuel Orantes, ESP
95 – Thomas Muster, AUT
94 – Andy Roddick, USA
93 – Nicola Pietrangeli, ITA
92 – Svetlana Kuznetsova, RUS
91 – Shirley Fry Irvin, USA
90 – Bill Johnston, USA
89 – Dorothea Lambert Chambers, GBR
88 – Amelie Mauresmo, FRA
87 – Mary Pierce, FRA
86 – Tony Wilding, NZL
85 – Yannick Noah, FRA
84 – Norman Brookes, AUS
83 – Jan Kodes, CZE
82 – Yevgeny Kafelnikov, RUS
81 – Vic Seixas, USA
80 – Marat Safin, RUS
79 – Gabriela Sabatini, ARG
78 – Ashley Cooper, AUS
77 – Molla Mallory, USA
76 – William Renshaw, GBR
75 – Pauline Betz Addie, USA
74 – Tony Roche, AUS
73 – Jaroslav Drobny, CZE
72 – Gottfried Von Cramm, GER
71 – Maria Sharapova, RUS
70 - Patrick Rafter, AUS
69 - Louise Brough Clapp, USA
68 - Helen Hull Jacobs, USA
67 - Fred Stolle, AUS
66 - Bobby Riggs, USA
65 - Pancho Segura, ECU
64 - Ellsworth Vines, USA
63 - Lleyton Hewitt, AUS
62 - Hana Mandlikova, CZE
61 - Neale Fraser, AUS
60 - Virginia Wade, GBR
59 - Margaret Osborne DuPort, USA
58 - Alice Marble, USA
57 - Jennifer Capriati, USA
56 - Stan Smith, USA
55 - Gustavo Kuerten, BRA
54 - Manolo Santana, ESP
53 - Tracy Austin, USA
52 - Jack Crawford, AUS
51 - Doris Hart, USA
50 - Tony Trabert, USA
49 - Ilie Nastase, ROU
48 - Frank Sedgman, AUS
47 - Jean Borotra, FRA
46 - Henri Cochet, FRA
45 - Kim Clijsters, BEL
44 - Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario, ESP
43 - Lindsay Davenport, USA
42 - Jim Courier, USA
41 - Guillermo Vilas, ARG
40-Novak Djokovic-SER
39-Althea Gibson-USA
38-Maria Bueno-BRZ
37-Evonne Goolagong-AUS
36-Rene Lacoste-FRN
35-Pancho Gonzalez-USA
34-Jack Kramer-USA
33-Mats Wilander-SWD
32-Lew Hoad-AUS
31-John Newcombe-AUS
30-Martina Hings-SWT
29-Helen Wills Moody-USA
28-Arthur Ashe-USA
27-Maureen Connolly-USA
26-Justine Henin-BEL
25-Stefan Edberg-SWD
24-Suzanne Lenglen-FRN
23-Fred Pery-GB
22-Venus Williams-USA
21-Boris Becker-GER

Last edited by Rollo; Mar 23rd, 2012 at 04:19 PM.
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post #4 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 21st, 2012, 01:42 PM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

I decided not to watch it at all, because it would just frustrate and cause me to start talking- no, screaming at the TV. There is no way to effectively compare champions who were not contemporaries across the net. It's just not possible. Accepting the fantasy that there could be such a comparison, there's no way it could ever be anything but biased toward "open era" and current players. After all, how many pre "open era" players actually have footage of them in action for anyone to evaluate, let alone the equipment & differences in rules, surface, etc. Tennis Channel, and the tennis community would be better served by calling it 100 Most Popular Tennis Stars of all time. At least that is somewhat quantifiable. Not every woman in tennis' history had the opportunity to parade around in the MOST hideous dress on Dancing With the Stars. I will say, I did enjoy the lesbian hatred seething underneath Martina's face when the one judge suggested (not in theses words) that she actually looked pretty with her makeup and hair done! Hey, there are a few ideas for TC right there- "Real Bitches of the WTA" or "Real Bulldykes of the WTA Locker Room". Shows like that would fill the seats!

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post #5 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 21st, 2012, 03:34 PM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

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Originally Posted by alfajeffster View Post
Not every woman in tennis' history had the opportunity to parade around in the MOST hideous dress on Dancing With the Stars. I will say, I did enjoy the lesbian hatred seething underneath Martina's face when the one judge suggested (not in theses words) that she actually looked pretty with her makeup and hair done!
i sadly did not see the episode because i had a 'previous engagement' shall we say.... BUT that sounds hilariously funny, and wish i had seen it. I do think it takes guts to be a 'legend' for your movement, and then expose yourself to this kind of an environment, and where a totally different sense of movement is prized.

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Originally Posted by alfajeffster View Post
I decided not to watch it at all, because it would just frustrate and cause me to start talking- no, screaming at the TV. There is no way to effectively compare champions who were not contemporaries across the net. It's just not possible. Accepting the fantasy that there could be such a comparison, there's no way it could ever be anything but biased toward "open era" and current players.
On this main topic, let's be clear.... especially as we are 'old guard' enough to know these things... NOTHING is done to QUANTIFY the past. They dont even bother cleaning up the WTA official records to provide the REAL FULL RESULTS of the 'open era' period, much less before that. Chris Evert & Martina Navratilova will both end up in the Top Dozen of this list...and THEIR RESULTS & RECORD is not even correctly tabulated by the governing bodies of tennis! So this point should be VERY CLEAR to all. It is NOT about understanding or even evaluating the realities of our sport's history.

It is a channel (or a paper or magazine or news program or store chain, etc) trying to create hype ~and people talking in disagreement is big fuel for the hype monster~ so that people TUNE IN and they get RATINGS that lead to ADVERTISERS. Things are done for numbers not for realities.

So when we know WHY something is done, we can better understand what factors determine what we see, how it is laid out, and hopefully, to have a sense of humor about it. Because it's all just noise, and at the least, helps young people to hear names from the past... and maybe see that what is "now" is not the all-time best just because they know the names. NOT THAT THEY CARE, as all that gets thrown under the ageless label of "OLD"...

We who seek truth...must acknowledge that Capitalism has no interest in us. How many aspects of our realities have been perverted into a sideshow of illusion & temples of transience, with the only goal to just keep the dollar moving? Yes, from elementary school all the way up the chain... a terrible passing shot up the line to befuddle us all with triviality!!!

Last edited by daze11; Mar 21st, 2012 at 03:46 PM.
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post #6 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 21st, 2012, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

good post daze11! of course your right.. it seems like a 'waste of time" i mean, yeah, your (the tennis channel) is going to get people watching, increasing viewership for a short time and hence advertisers.. but it only the tennis fans that watch the tennis channel in the first place! i mean it's not this "special" is being shown on primetime network tv or even primetime espn...

some of the picks: osborne dupont higher than her doubles partner louise brough?

virginia wade higher than ann jones (way higher i might add)

and once again,like i posted when i started this topic thread WE THE VIEWER HAVE NO IDEA WHO IS JUDGING THIS AND HOW MUCH EACH CRITERIA AND FACTOR WERE GIVEN? was it all equal? talent, head to head, major wins, reputation, etcetera, etcetera.. usually at least when these silly shows of the greatest of all time is done in every sport they at least tell the viewer who the panel is and what not! and we know EXACTLY WHAT PERCENTAGE was given to each criteria... here all we get are former players and current players with their little 10 second spiel on whoever!

they should have just left it at 100 greatest players of all time! AND IN NO ORDER OR PREFERENCE! HECK, DO IT ALPHABETICALLY I SAY! by the way will it be 50 men and 50 women even? yes, i'll keep on watching only because like everyone else i'm a HUGE TENNIS HISTORY BUFF! and i like seeing old clips of the greats ( especially liked the alice marble and pauline betz and louise brough clips)..

would have been great if former and current players actually BOYCOTTED THIS SPECIAL knowing themselves it's silly and impossible and pointless to have such a list, much less make a '3 to 5 night special" on it!
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post #7 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 21st, 2012, 10:39 PM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
i sadly did not see the episode because i had a 'previous engagement' shall we say.... BUT that sounds hilariously funny, and wish i had seen it. I do think it takes guts to be a 'legend' for your movement, and then expose yourself to this kind of an environment, and where a totally different sense of movement is prized.

On this main topic, let's be clear.... especially as we are 'old guard' enough to know these things... NOTHING is done to QUANTIFY the past. They dont even bother cleaning up the WTA official records to provide the REAL FULL RESULTS of the 'open era' period, much less before that. Chris Evert & Martina Navratilova will both end up in the Top Dozen of this list...and THEIR RESULTS & RECORD is not even correctly tabulated by the governing bodies of tennis! So this point should be VERY CLEAR to all. It is NOT about understanding or even evaluating the realities of our sport's history.

It is a channel (or a paper or magazine or news program or store chain, etc) trying to create hype ~and people talking in disagreement is big fuel for the hype monster~ so that people TUNE IN and they get RATINGS that lead to ADVERTISERS. Things are done for numbers not for realities.

So when we know WHY something is done, we can better understand what factors determine what we see, how it is laid out, and hopefully, to have a sense of humor about it. Because it's all just noise, and at the least, helps young people to hear names from the past... and maybe see that what is "now" is not the all-time best just because they know the names. NOT THAT THEY CARE, as all that gets thrown under the ageless label of "OLD"...

We who seek truth...must acknowledge that Capitalism has no interest in us. How many aspects of our realities have been perverted into a sideshow of illusion & temples of transience, with the only goal to just keep the dollar moving? Yes, from elementary school all the way up the chain... a terrible passing shot up the line to befuddle us all with triviality!!!
Daze, spot on! And Alfa and the dykes that would be smth to watch!
All this capitalism stuff made me think how ugley the world can get when the marketing experts take over; and how everything is done to get money in the pockets no matter how, sad really. That explains how people as vulgar as the Kardashians can be so successful... sigh

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post #8 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 21st, 2012, 11:26 PM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

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good post daze11! of course your right.. it seems like a 'waste of time" i mean, yeah, your (the tennis channel) is going to get people watching, increasing viewership for a short time and hence advertisers.. but it only the tennis fans that watch the tennis channel in the first place! i mean it's not this "special" is being shown on primetime network tv or even primetime espn...
yes & tennis channel is competing against all the other networks for those advertising dollars, so they need to prove viewership. And interest in tennis is way down in the US, where the channel is located & advertisers come from.

It's not about who the audience is... it's "IS ANYBODY watching". And thats why it wont be shown as 'top 100' by alphabet or discuss the evaluation process - they want to rile people up, keep people guessing, and to have the suspense of "WHO" will be #1 & who ahead of who(m)... "enquiring minds want to know!"

but hey, keep watching ~ It still should be entertaining programming & I want the tennis channel to stay as long as they can make it.

Last edited by daze11; Mar 22nd, 2012 at 03:56 AM.
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post #9 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 2012, 12:39 AM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

Men and women should not be ranked together. Perhaps, 50 to men and 50 top women?
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post #10 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 22nd, 2012, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

i hate that i can't help watching this silly special! lol! it's like a drug to a tennis history buff like myself! guess since i've watched it this long i might as well watch it until the end.. although all the points i made are becoming more and more obvious each night..

arthur ashe at number #28?!! i wouldn't have put even put him in the top 100! yeah, ashe over kramer, perry, gonzales and a bunch of other is laughable if not just wrong... the players SHOULD ONLY BE BASED on their talent and their achievements ON THE COURT! for this ranking i don't care what he did off the court!

where are they going to place althea gibson then? the fact that she is now going to be in the top 20 is laughable too.. ahead of connolly? who whipped her easily every time they played and would have continue to do so if connolly hadn't retired at such a young age.. even connolly's achievements far outweigh gibsons... 9 grand slam titles, the grand slam, etcetera.. heck, gibson was lucky she won her 2 wimbys and her 2 u.s opens in 57 and 58 in the first place since she faced very week competition.. either a has been brough or never were's like mortimer and hard!...

if the objective of this show was to rile up true tennis history buffs whether amateur or pro historians, then with this viewer they have reached their goal..

this show even made mistakes.. last night when they listed helen wills (who by the way with lenglen i thought would have ranked higher) the voiceover guy made mention of their one match against each other and how it went to lenglen 8-6in the third?! EVERY TENNIS history buff KNOWS THAT it was 8-6 in the second set, the score being 6-3, 8-6! was this a mistake the voiceover guy made in recording or was it wrong when he read it! either way a gross mistake to a true tennis history buff... and a mistake that should not have gone unnoticed when this special aired last night!

this show is becoming ridiculous and a "hack job" but yes, i have to keep on watching it just for the old clips of former greats!
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post #11 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2012, 07:36 AM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

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i hate that i can't help watching this silly special! lol! it's like a drug to a tennis history buff like myself! guess since i've watched it this long i might as well watch it until the end.. although all the points i made are becoming more and more obvious each night..

arthur ashe at number #28?!! i wouldn't have put even put him in the top 100! yeah, ashe over kramer, perry, gonzales and a bunch of other is laughable if not just wrong... the players SHOULD ONLY BE BASED on their talent and their achievements ON THE COURT! for this ranking i don't care what he did off the court!

where are they going to place althea gibson then? the fact that she is now going to be in the top 20 is laughable too.. ahead of connolly? who whipped her easily every time they played and would have continue to do so if connolly hadn't retired at such a young age.. even connolly's achievements far outweigh gibsons... 9 grand slam titles, the grand slam, etcetera.. heck, gibson was lucky she won her 2 wimbys and her 2 u.s opens in 57 and 58 in the first place since she faced very week competition.. either a has been brough or never were's like mortimer and hard!...

if the objective of this show was to rile up true tennis history buffs whether amateur or pro historians, then with this viewer they have reached their goal..

this show even made mistakes.. last night when they listed helen wills (who by the way with lenglen i thought would have ranked higher) the voiceover guy made mention of their one match against each other and how it went to lenglen 8-6in the third?! EVERY TENNIS history buff KNOWS THAT it was 8-6 in the second set, the score being 6-3, 8-6! was this a mistake the voiceover guy made in recording or was it wrong when he read it! either way a gross mistake to a true tennis history buff... and a mistake that should not have gone unnoticed when this special aired last night!

this show is becoming ridiculous and a "hack job" but yes, i have to keep on watching it just for the old clips of former greats!
What? You're not watching and waiting for Patrick (I love Andy) McEnroe call the Aussie great Margaret Court Smith, and then hand the mike over to Tracy who will chirp the old BJKing adage "yeah, but 11 of those majors came in Australia when nobody else played". It's coming, once they get to the top ten and rank Margaret ridiculously low. I still can't watch it, and won't.

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post #12 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2012, 10:00 AM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

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Men and women should not be ranked together. Perhaps, 50 to men and 50 top women?
You know, you can still get a list of top 50 women from this list.




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post #13 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2012, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

well, we're done to the final 10.. obviously the last 10 will include: evert, graf, navratilova, court and king, sampras, federer,laver, borg, nadal.. in what order who knows and at this point, who cares! laugh!

like i said whose voting on this? what's the criteria? is all criteria given the same weight? etcetera, etcetera, etcetera....

every night so far i have a gripe! laugh! i for one would never put agassi over mcenroe or connors?

borg will be over mcenroe then too?

serena is lower than king although she passed billie jean in grand slam single titles, but then again king obviously had waaay more grand slam titles in doubles and mixed doubles, not to mentioned incredible longevity... so i'm okay with billie jean being ranked higher than serena.

the one thing i DO FIND INTERESTING is finding out the head to head records and even that makes me think.. laver couldn't beat lew hoad! for instance.
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post #14 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2012, 03:17 PM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

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well, we're done to the final 10.. obviously the last 10 will include: evert, graf, navratilova, court and king, sampras, federer,laver, borg, nadal.. in what order who knows and at this point, who cares! laugh!

like i said whose voting on this? what's the criteria? is all criteria given the same weight? etcetera, etcetera, etcetera....

every night so far i have a gripe! laugh! i for one would never put agassi over mcenroe or connors?

borg will be over mcenroe then too?

serena is lower than king although she passed billie jean in grand slam single titles, but then again king obviously had waaay more grand slam titles in doubles and mixed doubles, not to mentioned incredible longevity... so i'm okay with billie jean being ranked higher than serena.

the one thing i DO FIND INTERESTING is finding out the head to head records and even that makes me think.. laver couldn't beat lew hoad! for instance.
Borg IS over McEnroe... he is one of the only real "legends" the game has ever known... so that can't be too surprising. I don't think McEnroe would disagree with that assessment.

But what IS surprising is I had never seen the 1992 french final between Seles & Graf!!!! I really enjoyed that match... so now I can say, I HAVE PARTICIPATED in the hype of the '100 Greatest' programming on the Tennis Channel... and found it beneficial!!! But I havent watched the list portion....
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post #15 of 180 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 2012, 03:50 PM
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Re: Tennis Channel's 100 Greatest Of All Time....

Monica at 19 is bullshit.
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