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post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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- It doesn't. More vengeance than justice that.
How is it vengeance?

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- I agree with being responsible for one's actions. But neither of those points speak to the opinion I expressed.
Well, you mentioned his then age and some

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Originally Posted by pov
As horrific as the Nazi atrocities were, punishing an 89 yo for stuff he may have done 60 years ago when he was 17 - 19 seems dubious.
And I don't understand you mean by "seems dubious".
He'll have the opportunity to put a defense against the accusation; he does not deny he was there, but "He told authorities he heard that people would be cremated and saw smoke but did not know how the prisoners had died"

As for his advanced age of 89 , that should not be a mitigating factor.
Besides, this case started in 1991, when he was 63.

Last, but not least, the German government wants him extradited.
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post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 03:17 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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How is it vengeance?

Well, you mentioned his then age and some

And I don't understand you mean by "seems dubious".[/I]

As for his advanced age of 89 , that should not be a mitigating factor.
Besides, this case started in 1991, when he was 63.

Last, but not least, the German government wants him extradited.
- I see it as vengeance because there I see nothing just in punishing a 89 yo for something done when he was at most 19

- Yes I mentioned his age. It's a factor. I don't use "responsible for" as an euphemism for "let's act as if the decades that have passed mean nothing."

- The above are why I see it as dubious.

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post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 03:18 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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Anyone? Anyone?
Obviously the posters made typos. I'm sure they all know the correct term.

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post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 03:35 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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so if lets say i kill 5 people when im 16, and now when im 70 yr they catch me on something i did years ago, should i go to jail?

i do believe no matter the crime, if you did it, you should pay the crime, its pretty simple
You are not alone in that belief Far from it. It's rooted in "eye for an eye" and as such it has more to do with vengeance than justice.

Justice always requires a completely contextual and measured approach to situations. There is no "one size fits all" no comforting platitudes or cliched generalizations.

There are many people now who societies know killed more than 5 people in their late teens, are younger than 70 and, far from being punished, are considered heroes. It's what happens in war. Sure we can look from outside with access to all the collated info and see how horrific things were in a situation. But to pretend that all or even most 17yo in Germany had access to that perspective is delusion.

Let's go further - let's say that in your hypothesis, at the time you were part of a unit involved in killing those people it was both legal and those running your country encouraged you to do so. Then five years later your country loses the war, the occupiers who are then in charge, decide retroactively that what you did was a crime. That's justice? No. it's simply "to the victorss go the spoils."

To also pretend that everyone holds the same perspective at 89 that they did as 19 is also delusion.

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post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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- I see it as vengeance because there I see nothing just in punishing a 89 yo for something done when he was at most 19

- Yes I mentioned his age. It's a factor. I don't use "responsible for" as an euphemism for "let's act as if the decades that have passed mean nothing."
Again, he was 63 when this case began, the mention of 89 yo is misleading.
The persecution can't just stop because the man is 89, that would set a dangerous precedent.
As you know these former Nazi investigations take lot effort very long time, they may span several countries to gather evidence.


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- The above are why I see it as dubious.
I am not seeing your point why it is dubious.
He is not denying he was guard at the prison camp, he is arguing he HEARD the prisoners were cremated, he did not actually see it being done.
The prosecution the fact he got a promotion demonstrates that he was not just a low level employee far removed from the major decision and actions going on at the camp.

The camp's job 1 is to make people disappear by cremating them, how can someone who got promoted for doing a good not know that?
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post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 05:42 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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You are not alone in that belief Far from it. It's rooted in "eye for an eye" and as such it has more to do with vengeance than justice.

Justice always requires a completely contextual and measured approach to situations. There is no "one size fits all" no comforting platitudes or cliched generalizations.

There are many people now who societies know killed more than 5 people in their late teens, are younger than 70 and, far from being punished, are considered heroes. It's what happens in war. Sure we can look from outside with access to all the collated info and see how horrific things were in a situation. But to pretend that all or even most 17yo in Germany had access to that perspective is delusion.

Let's go further - let's say that in your hypothesis, at the time you were part of a unit involved in killing those people it was both legal and those running your country encouraged you to do so. Then five years later your country loses the war, the occupiers who are then in charge, decide retroactively that what you did was a crime. That's justice? No. it's simply "to the victorss go the spoils."

To also pretend that everyone holds the same perspective at 89 that they did as 19 is also delusion.
Actually it's not rooted in "an eye for an eye".

But be that as it may, you are arguing for a statute of limitations on murder. That's fine to argue but what is the cut off? If I murder someone at 20 years old and don't get caught until I'm 50 should I not have to pay for that crime? After all 30 years have passed and I may be a model citizen.

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 06:21 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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I am not seeing your point why it is dubious.
I have explained many times why I see it as dubious. I get that you don't agree and I'm okay with that.

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post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 06:25 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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Actually it's not rooted in "an eye for an eye".

But be that as it may, you are arguing for a statute of limitations on murder. That's fine to argue but what is the cut off? If I murder someone at 20 years old and don't get caught until I'm 50 should I not have to pay for that crime? After all 30 years have passed and I may be a model citizen.
- I'm fairly sure that it's rooted in "an eye for an eye." But I'll muse and check up on that again.

- This has nothing to do with murder. Nor am I here arguing for a statute of limitations. That again would be a sweeping approach.

- Punky already did the hypothesis you present and I already refuted it. In fact, my response is in the very post that you quoted.

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post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 06:32 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

^ I double-checked and I was correct.

Wikipedia:
"An eye for an eye or the "law" of retaliation, is the principle that a person who has injured another person is penalized to a similar degree, or in softer interpretations, the victim receives the value of the injury in compensation.[1]

The principle is sometimes referred using the Latin term lex talionis or the law of talion, the English word talion (from the Latin talio.[2]) means a retaliation authorized by law, in which the punishment corresponds in kind and degree to the injury."

The term lex talionis does not always and only refer to literal eye-for-an-eye codes of justice (see rather mirror punishment) but applies to the broader class of legal systems that specify formulate penalties for specific crimes, which are thought to be fitting in their severity. Some propose that this was at least in part intended to prevent excessive punishment at the hands of either an avenging private party or the state."

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post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 06:34 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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As horrific as the Nazi atrocities were, punishing an 89 yo for stuff he may have done 60 years ago when he was 17 - 19 seems dubious.
Not when they were that horrific.

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post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 06:44 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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- I'm fairly sure that it's rooted in "an eye for an eye." But I'll muse and check up on that again.

- This has nothing to do with murder. Nor am I here arguing for a statute of limitations. That again would be a sweeping approach.

- Punky already did the hypothesis you present and I already refuted it. In fact, my response is in the very post that you quoted.
Your response is there but not a refutation. It seems that you are arguing that what the Nazis did (genocide) was legal because they did it as state policy. Even though I'm not sure that the genocide was a law passed by the Nazis.

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 06:52 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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^ I double-checked and I was correct.

Wikipedia:
"An eye for an eye or the "law" of retaliation, is the principle that a person who has injured another person is penalized to a similar degree, or in softer interpretations, the victim receives the value of the injury in compensation.[1]

The principle is sometimes referred using the Latin term lex talionis or the law of talion, the English word talion (from the Latin talio.[2]) means a retaliation authorized by law, in which the punishment corresponds in kind and degree to the injury."

The term lex talionis does not always and only refer to literal eye-for-an-eye codes of justice (see rather mirror punishment) but applies to the broader class of legal systems that specify formulate penalties for specific crimes, which are thought to be fitting in their severity. Some propose that this was at least in part intended to prevent excessive punishment at the hands of either an avenging private party or the state."
Eye for an eye means if you take out my eye, I get to take out yours (Sharia law allows this). If you want to say that the crime of murder should be punished by death there is argument for that in the five books of the Torah. In fact the only law that is repeated in all five books of the Torah is that murderers should be put to death.

The cry of many that punishing crimes is vengeance is, IMO, .

If you don't punish crimes then you should let everybody go to keep from exacting vengeance. What is that movie that was out a few months ago where one night a year people were allowed to maim, murder and do all manner of crimes without fear of being brought to vengeance? Would you prefer that?

If not, what are you arguing? Because it seems to me that you are defending not punishing people for crimes.

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 08:25 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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You are not alone in that belief Far from it. It's rooted in "eye for an eye" and as such it has more to do with vengeance than justice.

Justice always requires a completely contextual and measured approach to situations. There is no "one size fits all" no comforting platitudes or cliched generalizations.

There are many people now who societies know killed more than 5 people in their late teens, are younger than 70 and, far from being punished, are considered heroes. It's what happens in war. Sure we can look from outside with access to all the collated info and see how horrific things were in a situation. But to pretend that all or even most 17yo in Germany had access to that perspective is delusion.

Let's go further - let's say that in your hypothesis, at the time you were part of a unit involved in killing those people it was both legal and those running your country encouraged you to do so. Then five years later your country loses the war, the occupiers who are then in charge, decide retroactively that what you did was a crime. That's justice? No. it's simply "to the victorss go the spoils."

To also pretend that everyone holds the same perspective at 89 that they did as 19 is also delusion.
i think you mix Revenge and justice.


when some Terrorist sends a group of terrorists to go and blow up in a building or a bus and then my country sends a missile into his house and kills him - thats Revenge

When a criminal imprisoned because the Society want him to pay for the crimes he committed - thats justice

When Golda Meir ordered the Mossad to catch the murderers of the Israeli athletes in Munich and eliminate them where they will be and how much time will pass - thats revenge

When a terrorist \ Nazi \ Rapist \ Vance \ Killer \ dictator - brought to a trial and go to jail (a murder is not murderer, a rapist is not raped, and no one is burning the Nazi's family as burned other families, there is no eye for an eye in here) it justice

By your logic theres a statute of limitations for crimes against humanity or any crime just because a person is old.
he is old and free because he got away, he doesnt need to get another "gift" and keep livin as a free men

how about an 80+ men/woman who does a crime? should we inore it because he is old?

and 19yo men is a men who knows the difference between good and bad, he was lucky to his from the law

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post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 09:19 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

^ Where is the evidence that an individual camp guard did anything more than walk around the perimeter doing sentry duty, with most witnesses dead, and others' memories faded?

You know the case of the John Demjanjuk, accused in the late 80's of being Treblinka executioner "Ivan the Terrible", convicted and sentenced to death, though the Israeli Supreme Court reversed the bogus conviction on appeal?

One witness (an elderly survivor) identified him (45 years on, and thus looking very different) based on "those eyes, those murderous eyes"! And Israel even held him another 6 weeks after the mistake was proven, considering whether he might be "guilty" from maybe just being an ordinary guard.

20 years later the US deported him to Ukraine (for lying on his visa application) where he died @ age 91. The worst he might provably have done was "not try 2B a hero" @ the camp he was at (Sobibor) and help prisoners escape. But again, that's like convicting someone for not rushing into a burning house to try to rescue ppl.
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post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2014, 09:31 PM
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Re: Former Nazi Death-camp Guard, Now 89, Accusesd of War Crimes

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Eye for an eye means if you take out my eye, I get to take out yours (Sharia law allows this). If you want to say that the crime of murder should be punished by death there is argument for that in the five books of the Torah. In fact the only law that is repeated in all five books of the Torah is that murderers should be put to death.

The cry of many that punishing crimes is vengeance is, IMO, .

If you don't punish crimes then you should let everybody go to keep from exacting vengeance. What is that movie that was out a few months ago where one night a year people were allowed to maim, murder and do all manner of crimes without fear of being brought to vengeance? Would you prefer that?

If not, what are you arguing? Because it seems to me that you are defending not punishing people for crimes.
- The info on "eye for eye" has been posted above.

- Punishing crimes isn't always vengeance. But it often is. Beyond that, continuing to argue as if war atrocities are the same as crime in general doesn't make much sense. Crimes are things that the society and/or that society's legal system deems unlawful.

- Were the people in that movie following the precepts and orders of a military unit they were part of? Were they told by those they were beholding to, that what they were doing was both right and necessary? Even so, if they did those atrocities at age 17 and were caught at age 89 not having done anything similar in the 70 years in-between, I might have a similar opinion to what I have in this case. Or I might not. What about my "treat things as specific instances not sweeping generalizations" do you not get?


- You continue to ignore clear arguments and refutations that I've already posted.

Why am I arguing? Interesting perspective. If you look through the thread you'll see that I posted a single- sentence opinion . . you and a couple others started the "arguing" against that opinion.

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