The War: Winners/Losers - do you agree? - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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The War: Winners/Losers - do you agree?

Winners: Countries

Iraq
Free at last after decades of Baathist tyranny, its oil wealth now held in trust for the people, in line for massive infusion of Western humanitarian aid and hopes are high that it will soon become the most democratic state in the Arab world. And France no longer wants to have anything to do with it.


United States
Won its war with less effort, fewer casualties and in less time than critics feared. Enjoys a much-needed economic boost as a consequence of the quick conflict, which takes oil prices down. Cheering Iraqis confirm that the Arab street is ready for Starbucks on the corner. And France no longer wants to have anything to do with it.


The new Gulf
Kuwait, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates Smaller Arab states who took a big risk by backing the war against Saddam. It is no coincidence that states such as Qatar are modernising themselves in a way that shames their big brother, Saudi Arabia.


Australia
John Howard, the most consistently underestimated leader on the world stage, defied vocal opposition to affirm the commitment of the Anglosphere to fighting fascism. His judgment once again vindicated, Australia confirms its place as the US’s key ally in the Pacific.


Poland
Pivotal nation of “new Europe”. Its Government may be in difficulties, but the nation whose sons played such a distinguished part in the skies over Kent during the Battle of Britain also contributed forces to the liberation of Iraq. The country that gave birth to Solidarity showed it knows what that means when it counts.


Guinea
As chair of the UN Security Council, this tiny equatorial African nation enjoyed its own hour in the sun. Visited, and fêted, by foreign ministers from both sides of the Iraq debate, the blandishments of the West should go some way to easing its people’s plight.


Spain
José María Aznar’s place alongside Bush and Blair at the Azores summit confirmed Madrid’s new status. Spain used its position on the UN Security Council to confirm its place as a force for modernisation in the EU, and a genuine Atlantic power. Aznar’s bravery means the benefits to Spain will outlast his premiership.


Britain
Confirmed as the most influential ally of the world’s No 1 power. Its troops are recognised as the world’s most effective in winning battles as well as hearts and minds. Has emerged as natural leader of “new Europe”. And France no longer wants to have anything to do with the UK

Losers: Countries

Belgium
In the first Gulf War, Brussels refused to supply Nato allies with ammo. In the second Gulf War, Brussels refused to give its Nato allies any support at all. As a consequence, Belgium is now as relevant as Andorra, but without the pleasant climate. And as respected as Burkina Faso, but without the geopolitical weight.

Syria
Who do you think you are kidding, President Assad? The man who claimed to be an Arab moderniser was Saddam’s best buddy throughout the war. Now that one national socialist Arab tyranny has gone, is it too much to hope that the Damascus regime will face an early Baath?

Germany
Konrad Adenauer built modern Germany on two solid pillars. He pledged that his country would never again follow its own “special path” and promised to stick close to the United States as the nation that guaranteed German security. Gerhard Schröder’s Germany has broken both golden rules by going out on an anti-American limb. It’ll take time to pick up the pieces.

Russia
The weapons that it sold Saddam are a smoking heap, its revived friendship with the United States has been compromised, its oil resources are suddenly worth a lot less now. Come back Yeltsin, all is forgiven.

Saudi Arabia
With Saddam gone, attention now turns to the family oil firm masquerading as a nation to the south. How much longer can this theocratic museum-piece resist the pressure for change?

Zimbabwe
While the world’s attention has been elsewhere, President Mugabe has piled additional miseries on his own people. How much longer can he be allowed to get away with it?

Pakistan
Now that the wind is in the sails of those arguing for democratisation of the Muslim world, how will General Musharraf respond? And as if that, and problems in Kashmir, weren’t worrying enough, pressure is growing for the traditional rival India to be given a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council. In place of ...

France
Saddam’s demise deprives President Chirac of a close personal friend and a reliable purchaser of traditional Gallic produce such as nuclear weapons facilities, Mirage jets, Sam missiles and assorted Exocets.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspap...641183,00.html

and where they produce desolation, they call it peace

Last edited by veryborednow; Apr 12th, 2003 at 05:21 PM.
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 11:06 AM
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I broadly agree with those now, but things will change very quickly. If we look back in 6 months or a year it will be interesting too. In the case of Spain, for example, I'd be really surprised to see the PP survive into another term in office.

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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 11:50 AM
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I can't agree more with JonBcn.
He might be considered as a important leader by the US and Great Britain, but, the rest of the world has some doubts on his behaviour (f.ex., Why?); and, also, you just can't act as if you don't give a fuck what the 90% of the population of your country thinks. He might have acted right, but he did it alone.

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 01:22 PM
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If Iraq doesn't not have any oil, the US won't even waste its time bombing it!!!
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 02:13 PM
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Yeah right: Belgium, France and Germany are losers ...

Those countries did what the majority of population thought. So 3/4 so the world's population are losers too ...

The biggest loser here is the regime of Saddam Hussein. PERIOD!

Last edited by Nemesis; Apr 12th, 2003 at 03:38 PM.
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 02:17 PM
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Winners: Any country with weapons of mass destruction, and the delivery systems necessary to reach the United States.

Losers: Any country with that doesn't.

The peoples of the former are relatively safe from invasion. The peoples of the latter are not.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 02:26 PM
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Loser: The United States of America.They are now saying that they don't have enough people to keep the peace and stop the anarchy that is going on in Iraq right now. They could deploy thousands of troops to invade Iraq, but they can't provide enough troops to bring stability to the country. This is a definite sign of things to come.
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 02:32 PM
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Rumsfeld cracks jokes, but Iraqis aren't laughing

Lawrence Smallman

At a Pentagon briefing, the US defence secretary faced questions about the rapidly deteriorating security situation, amid calls by aid agencies to allow them to do their job.

“Stuff happens,” came the Rumsfeld reply.


U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld jokes while Baghdad suffers

"It's untidy. And freedom's untidy. And free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things," his adroit fingers this time pointing at no particular member of the press. Lawlessness, closed hospitals and fires burning in Baghdad and other cities are a freed people venting their frustrations, apparently.



If ever an Oscar was deserved for minimizing catastrophic reports coming out of Iraq with jocular "henny penny" disbelief, then Rumsfeld has a date with Hollywood.



“Television is merely running the same footage of the same man stealing a vase over and over,” he joked, adding he didn't think there were that many vases in Iraq. The US may be the strongest nation in the world, but their history is incomparable to that of Iraq – a region that has been described as the cradle of civilization.



Flippant remarks cannot replace priceless artefacts that have disappeared from the National Museum in Baghdad, or the books of the University of Mosul – one of the oldest and best universities in the whole of the Middle East.



But Secretary Rumsfeld has "a lot of confidence in the American people" not to believe TV footage from Iraq. Widespread theft across Iraq, reported in every language on screens worldwide, is an acceptable expression of freedom and really just the same picture shown again and again, he claimed. Meanwhile, Al Jazeera correspondents in Tikrit, Mosul, Basra and Baghdad confirm that US troops are still just watching looters steal private property and destroy any feelings of public safety.



The International Committee of the Red Cross and World Health Organizations issued appeals today to the US and British military to restore order, as the Geneva Convention requires.



US and British commanders say they don't have the troops to do this, or play a policing role. President Bush reinforced Rumsfeld's view on Friday, saying that "out of chaos that takes place there now ... the Iraqi people will run their own country."



"I reminded them that war in Iraq is really about peace," said Bush. "This victory in Iraq, when it happens, will make the world more peaceful." Iraqis who have been starved by sanctions for 12 years, bombed for three weeks and now robbed for three days must be beginning to wonder when this peace will begin.



"Tommy tells us what is necessary to achieve the objective. We gave Tommy the tools necessary to win," said Bush. "And when Tommy says we've achieved our objectives, that's when we've achieved our objectives. The war will end when Tommy says we've achieved our objectives.'' Let’s hope Tommy decides to impose some law and order soon.



"Freedom is a gift from the Almighty God," President Bush added, failing to define what General Frank’s objectives were, when asked.



At the Pentagon, Secretary Rumsfeld said the US does feel an obligation to assist in providing security: "We're looking for the police" in Iraqi towns and villages, he added. Concerns expressed before the war look likely to be fulfilled, those best able to police Iraq now might be those who have had the most experience – namely Ba’athists and supporters of the old regime. Calling into question, the logic of much of the war.



Appeals for quick solutions may exacerbate a terrible problem. US troops "should be doing something because (the chaos) destroys our image as the liberators and the people who are going to bring a new order to Iraq," foreign affairs analyst Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution in Washington. It’s not nice for Iraqi civilians either.



There has been some crucial action to bring peace. Central Command in Qatar said it was issuing decks of `Saddam regime' cards to troops to help them spot Saddam and his supporters – showing a US-blacklisted 55 personalities. The American military has also rushed to dispatch 2,000 troops to secure northern Iraq's oilfields, which will alleviate Turkish political concerns – though probably not aid Kurdish interests.



The Pentagon has also been busy, admitting yesterday that it had awarded - without competition - a contract worth up to $7 billion, to the subsidiary of a company run until three years ago by Vice-President Dick Cheney.



Democrat Representative Henry Waxman of California, from the government reform committee, called for an investigation into the deal with oil services giant Halliburton, saying he could understand the contract if it had been issued in an emergency.



"But it's harder to understand what the rationale would be for a sole-source contract that has a multi-year duration and multi-billion-dollar price tag," he said. --Al Jazeera
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 03:08 PM
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Thumbs up Well done Veryborednow

Biggest loser by far is Syria. In the eyes of the American public, they were an "Enemy of Israel" but now they will have a hard road to travel to establish that they are not an "Enemy of the US" as well.

France has rendered itself irrelevant to the US. Not an enemy, but no longer an ally. The French have always been difficult politically but I doubt the US will even place them in a position to be a pain in our ass politically in the future.

If I was Bush, once the shooting in Iraq ends, I would play two cards:

Everyone who was so opposed to the war but claimed to "care about Iraqi women and children", head on over to Iraq and put up or shut up. Volunteer to help rebuild Iraq into a great democracy.

The second card is a little more risky, I'd pull all non-essential $$$ out of economic aid for every country that didn't support us and divert it to continuing the War On Terrorism, next target Syria. Not saying I'd attack Syria, but they would be next under the microscope.

I think Middle Eastern countries may be ready to stop talking trash and instead giving up terrorists. The precident has been set. They now know that we aren't going to respect their borders or their governments when it comes to chasing after the bad guys.

Besides I think there are plenty of people who would like to dance in the streets and loot the Oil families of other Middle Eastern countries.

I have no problem with "liberating" them all.

Since the world "hates us" anyway now; might as well keep on going.

Anybody nervous???

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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwifan
Biggest loser by far is Syria. In the eyes of the American public, they were an "Enemy of Israel" but now they will have a hard road to travel to establish that they are not an "Enemy of the US" as well.

France has rendered itself irrelevant to the US. Not an enemy, but no longer an ally. The French have always been difficult politically but I doubt the US will even place them in a position to be a pain in our ass politically in the future.

If I was Bush, once the shooting in Iraq ends, I would play two cards:

Everyone who was so opposed to the war but claimed to "care about Iraqi women and children", head on over to Iraq and put up or shut up. Volunteer to help rebuild Iraq into a great democracy.

The second card is a little more risky, I'd pull all non-essential $$$ out of economic aid for every country that didn't support us and divert it to continuing the War On Terrorism, next target Syria. Not saying I'd attack Syria, but they would be next under the microscope.

I think Middle Eastern countries may be ready to stop talking trash and instead giving up terrorists. The precident has been set. They now know that we aren't going to respect their borders or their governments when it comes to chasing after the bad guys.

Besides I think there are plenty of people who would like to dance in the streets and loot the Oil families of other Middle Eastern countries.

I have no problem with "liberating" them all.

Since the world "hates us" anyway now; might as well keep on going.

Anybody nervous???

Great post...I think the two biggest winners are GW BUSH and Blair...I think that the Bush administration has been fully vindicated and the anti war turds have eggs on their faces...

France and Germany should be made to crawl on their bellies and begg..."DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU"...

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 04:08 PM
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Talking Well that's a little harsh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopShotta
Great post...I think the two biggest winners are GW BUSH and Blair...I think that the Bush administration has been fully vindicated and the anti war turds have eggs on their faces...

France and Germany should be made to crawl on their bellies and begg..."DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU"...
LOL

Actually I think that it isn't a matter of them begging us for anything.

Just let them do their thing without us, like they clearly seem to want to do.

There are many other nations who would like a little help and we should help those who want to be out allies when we really need them to stand by us.

I'm not even mad at the French or the Germans; I just think that our resources are better off being used to help our interests.

Those nations aren't going to fall apart without us, so why give them the love when they give none back

Now Poland should get the love. All those countries that France was threatening because they supported us should get the love.

And the love should come directly from the "USA's Franco-Deutch Love Account"

Carrot and Stick baby, Carrot and Stick.

If your fave's coach isn't Richard Williams, that's just her first problem...

I was there when the ALL BLACKS won the World Cup in 2011!!!

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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2003, 04:20 PM
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Winner: US (but we were already winners anyways)
All countries that supported us (particularly UK and Spain)

Loser: Germany, Belgium, all other Peace Tard Nations

Biggest Loser of them all: FRANCE (but they have been loosers throughout history. Honestly the only war they ever won took 137 years and a schitzophrenic teenager)

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 13th, 2003, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Biggest Loser of them all: FRANCE (but they have been loosers throughout history. Honestly the only war they ever won took 137 years and a schitzophrenic teenager)
I sincerely hope you're trying to be ironic, otherwise I'd be appalled at your lack of French history knowledge and tactless opinions...

The article is from the British publication The Times, and is tinted with provocative jabs at the French all over its subjective lines... God only knows how these countries domestic tabloids like to play this little European rivalry up, and every other bombastic headline has to be taken with the usual grain of amusement and nonsense reality...

The war might be over and Saddam's loyalist forces resistance only sporadic, but consequences of this operation will be felt in years to come...The first Gulf War was also officially over after a rapid and conclusive military victory by the part of the Allied Forces, but issues that should have been dealt with then, remained open more than 10 years later...

A list of winners & losers to be done now is maybe too simplistic to address all the tangential changes that may/will occur later on, and we don't know how History will see and analyse all the involving parties in the future, but I would like to add my own personal view with a few names :

Winners to include Rumsfeld, Bush, U.S. Military, Kuwait, Blair, America's Corporate World, Israel and Washington's Jewish lobby...

Losers to include Collin Powell, Syria, American regular taxpayers, all victims, POW's and their families, freedom of expression and North Korea...
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 13th, 2003, 12:48 AM
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I can't really believ anyone consider Spain as a winner country... Could you explain me why? What have we won?

It's so embarrassing that sucks

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old Apr 13th, 2003, 12:51 AM
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I can't believe that only one person has mentioned Israel as a winner. Am I the only one who thinks Israel is the BIGGEST winner here by far? And they lost nothing in the process. Iraq was a HUGE threat to Israel's security. Saddam Hussein is gone, the weapons gone. Israel's position is much improved. Note that now a lot of hate in the region is directed towards US/UK, there's actually less focus on Israel too.

Anyway, back to Australia. Hopefully this will mean better trade ties with US and other incentives. Something good has to come out of this for us. Geez.
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