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post #31 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 2013, 01:28 AM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Does Russia have gay celebrities? I'm just wondering cause I'm trying to work out what general public attitude are like, leaving aside the big political element for a second.
While I don't know of the general public attitude, because I worked primarily with affluent Muscovites, I can speak of my own experience with Russians. In my entire 2.5 years teaching in Russia, I had one openly gay student. There were several others I suspected, but who I was either wrong about or were choosing to lead a heterosexual lifestyle. Opinion about American celebrities who were quite vocally supportive of GLBT rights were very split. For example, I wouldn't expect to hear a Canadian colleague say that Lady Gaga was offensive and a bad role model for children due to her views on equal rights, but it's something I heard many times in Moscow. That being said, I got the impression that most didn't really care one way or another, because they didn't believe they were in any way directly effected by these issues. They lived their lives, and other people's problems are ... other people's problems

As for Russia having gay celebrities - there are enough celebrities in Russia that obviously they do, but I would guess that those who want to be open leave Russia. I could be wrong, though - maybe the Russian press is just flooded with support from Russian celebrities on this issue and it's somehow not making it to English press
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post #32 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 2013, 01:29 AM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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There are quite a few. Actors, artists, fashion designers.
Have any of them spoken out recently?
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post #33 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 2013, 02:43 AM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Have any of them spoken out recently?
I don't know. I don't follow Russian media much.

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post #34 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 2013, 09:38 AM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Written by extraordinarily stupid, pathetic, short-sighted selfish bastard, who is prepared to walk over the dead bodies for his personal cause.

My take - what should people who truly care about gay rights do is to come to Olympics en masses and represent what they believe in there. No demonstration, no open challenge, just be what you are - that is the best, most effective message.

Idea of boycott is no just idiotic, it's extremely selfish and goes straight against interests of those about whom the authors of the idea pretend to care. Yes, Russian people are more homophobic than we'd want them to be. Can it be changed overnight? No. And the solution is not spitting into their faces, but rather patient educational work, just the same way it happened here in West.

Russians are also very patriotic, and will consider the success of the Games as very important for them. Do something to hurt the Russian Olympics in the name of gays - practically, what you are going to get is an enormous backlash against gays in Russia. They are not liked now. Do it, and they will be hated. The result of hurting Putin's Olympics will flatter your vanity, but it will serve no purpose in your cause and will hurt exactly those people you care about,
I agree though it is sad. When Thatcher tried to boycott the Moscow games I understand it had little impact. What has impact is enlightenment. I just feel Russia has decades to go.
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post #35 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 2013, 10:41 AM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Do something to hurt the Russian Olympics in the name of gays - practically, what you are going to get is an enormous backlash against gays in Russia. They are not liked now. Do it, and they will be hated.
You or Russia are in no position to be making threats. Russia and any country like it, needs to be told bluntly, that their actions are not tolerated. A boycott will teach them a lesson they won't forget. And while we're there stop pretending you care about gays and lesbians in Russia.

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post #36 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 02:22 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

The USSR still took 9 years to leave Afghanistan after the Moscow boycott. Also all politics is domestic so I can't see a boycott having any affect if public opinion remains the same.
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post #37 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 02:31 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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You or Russia are in no position to be making threats. Russia and any country like it, needs to be told bluntly, that their actions are not tolerated. A boycott will teach them a lesson they won't forget. And while we're there stop pretending you care about gays and lesbians in Russia.
I actually agree with ys on this. A boycott would do more harm than good. In case nobody's noticed, Russia doesn't really give a shit.
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post #38 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 05:52 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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The USSR still took 9 years to leave Afghanistan after the Moscow boycott. Also all politics is domestic so I can't see a boycott having any affect if public opinion remains the same.
Of course, but the point of the boycott is to change public opinion.

ys and Crazy Canuck are basically arguing that we should not do anything with respect to Russia and its lack of gay rights because doing so would irritate the Russian people. And that irritation is positively correlated with increased mistreatment (denial of rights, safety) of gays. But neither has sufficiently justified that claim. ys just asserts that it's true without providing any evidence/argument. And Crazy Canuck claims that the boycott won't work because Russia "doesn't really give a shit". The obvious rejoinder to that is: of course Russian doesn't give a shit, but after a boycott (or some other option) has been established, there might be an increased incentive for Russia to discontinue its horrible gay rights policies.
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post #39 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 05:57 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Obviously not, quite the opposite. During its little stint as the world's dominant power (1945-2000) the US has already gone to war over plenty enough thank you very much.
Well what are you bitching about?

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post #40 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 05:59 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Of course, but the point of the boycott is to change public opinion.

ys and Crazy Canuck are basically arguing that we should not do anything with respect to Russia and its lack of gay rights because doing so would irritate the Russian people. And that irritation is positively correlated with increased mistreatment (denial of rights, safety) of gays. But neither has sufficiently justified that claim. ys just asserts that it's true without providing any evidence/argument. And Crazy Canuck claims that the boycott won't work because Russia "doesn't really give a shit". The obvious rejoinder to that is: of course Russian doesn't give a shit, but after a boycott (or some other option) has been established, there might be an increased incentive for Russia to discontinue its horrible gay rights policies.
It will just make the public hate the West more than they all already do. They claim the West is just petty and wants to spoil Russia's big moment.
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post #41 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 06:04 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
Of course, but the point of the boycott is to change public opinion.

ys and Crazy Canuck are basically arguing that we should not do anything with respect to Russia and its lack of gay rights because doing so would irritate the Russian people. And that irritation is positively correlated with increased mistreatment (denial of rights, safety) of gays. But neither has sufficiently justified that claim. ys just asserts that it's true without providing any evidence/argument. And Crazy Canuck claims that the boycott won't work because Russia "doesn't really give a shit". The obvious rejoinder to that is: of course Russian doesn't give a shit, but after a boycott (or some other option) has been established, there might be an increased incentive for Russia to discontinue its horrible gay rights policies.
But their points are well taken when they say that you and some others who support your position are interested in what makes you feel good. However you are not the one who will pay the price. Perhaps you believe, like some others on this board, that collateral damage is fine. As I said before you won't pay the price, but by golly as long as you feel good, to hell with the people who actually will do the suffering.

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #42 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 07:58 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Originally Posted by HippityHop View Post
But their points are well taken when they say that you and some others who support your position are interested in what makes you feel good. However you are not the one who will pay the price. Perhaps you believe, like some others on this board, that collateral damage is fine. As I said before you won't pay the price, but by golly as long as you feel good, to hell with the people who actually will do the suffering.
I've neither said nor implied that I'm only interested in what makes me feel good. Obviously, when people are treated equally and with kindness, it makes me feel good. And it should make any decent person feel good. But, again, never have I claimed that I only support equal rights (and that Russian gays should be treated decently) solely because it makes me feel good. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. If not, stop talking out of your ass.

Re: collateral damage. I think that collateral damage is okay if the harm caused by the collateral damage is not as big as the good caused by it. That seems a reasonable enough position for me. Why do you disagree with it?
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post #43 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 08:39 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community



Obama has 'no patience' for Russia's anti-gay laws

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...f4d_story.html

Obama criticized Russia’s laws discriminating against gays on “The Tonight Show.” Because of the law, some have advocated a boycott of the 2014 Winter Olympics, which will be held in Sochi in February.

Saying that he had “no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgender persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them,” Obama criticized a law, enacted in June, that prohibits public events promoting gay rights and public displays of affection by same-sex couples. A Russian official has promised that the law will be enforced during next February’s Sochi Games despite the International Olympic Committee’s contrary stance.

“One of the things I think is very important for me to speak out on is making sure that people are treated fairly and justly because that’s what we stand for, and I believe that that’s a precept that’s not unique to America,” Obama said. “That’s just something that should apply everywhere.”

Last edited by Williamsser; Aug 10th, 2013 at 10:11 PM.
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post #44 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 09:34 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Originally Posted by Novichok View Post
I've neither said nor implied that I'm only interested in what makes me feel good. Obviously, when people are treated equally and with kindness, it makes me feel good. And it should make any decent person feel good. But, again, never have I claimed that I only support equal rights (and that Russian gays should be treated decently) solely because it makes me feel good. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. If not, stop talking out of your ass.

Re: collateral damage. I think that collateral damage is okay if the harm caused by the collateral damage is not as big as the good caused by it. That seems a reasonable enough position for me. Why do you disagree with it?
Well I inferred that you will feel good if there is a boycott. Am I wrong?

Secondly, it's easy to say that collateral damage is okay if you are not part of the collateral damage. Again, am I wrong?

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #45 of 480 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 2013, 10:09 PM
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Re: Russian GLBT community

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Well I inferred that you will feel good if there is a boycott. Am I wrong?

Secondly, it's easy to say that collateral damage is okay if you are not part of the collateral damage. Again, am I wrong?
To the first question, yes, you are are wrong. I have said nothing or implied anything that indicates that I will feel good if there is a boycott. I have not even implied that I support the boycott. I've only said that I found some arguments in this thread against the boycott to be insufficiently argued. But, I will feel good if the boycott (were it to happen) lead to improvements in the lives of LGBT Russians.

To the second question, you are again wrong. It might be easy for you to say that or most people to say that. But from that you can't generalize to everyone. And since you don't know me at all, you surely can't expand that claim to me. I think human suffering is a very important consideration to any policy. So, no, it's not easy for me to say that collateral damage is okay even when I'm not a part of the collateral damage. I qualified my support of policies that lead to collateral damage, with a utilitarian consideration. One that you did not respond to.

In both of the posts that you have directed at me, you have displayed a shockingly low level of reading comprehension and critical thinking. So, I'm through discussing this with you.
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