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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Red face American propaganda

The propaganda is going hard these days.



HOW DARE THE FRENCH FORGET

February 10, 2003 -- COLLEVILLE-SUR-MER, France - They stand only 3 feet high, but they're towering mountains of sacrifice.
I'm standing in the American Cemetery. Gray clouds hang low as if in mourning for the nearly 10,000 young Americans buried beneath crosses and Stars of David that stretch as far as the eye can see.

The air is chill, but I feel an unnatural glow of rage - I want to kick the collective butts of France.

These kids died to save the French from a tyrant named Adolf Hitler.

And now, as more American kids are poised to fight and die to save the world from an equally vile tyrant, Saddam Hussein, where are the French?

Hiding. Chickening out. Proclaiming, Vive les wimps!

The French, amazingly, never learned the lesson of what happens to appeasers.

They may not remember - but Caroline Buck does.

"When I look at these graves, it makes me want to cry," Buck, who lives in San Antonio, told me as she dabbed her eyes with a handkerchief.

"My father joined the Merchant Marines during WWII at the age of 17. Those soldiers out there under that ground were just kids. They were here to save France, and if it wasn't for them, the French might have ended up speaking German," she said.

Well, what do you know. They're now speaking the same anti-war language as the Germans - in a European chorus of cowards.

Buck's husband, Ron, an engineer, remembered his father flying over France against the Germans in planes nicknamed "The Black Widows" because they flew at night.

"I think this whole anti-American thing is sad," he said. "I don't know whether it's television or an older generation dying out, but after our soldiers did so much for France, well, look at these graves. Surely they remember."

Sorry. They don't.

I read these names with tears in my eyes and fury in my heart:

"Walter F. Rober, Pvt., 358 Inf., 90 Div., New York, July 13, 1944; Angelo Cauca, Pvt., 8 Inf., 4 Div., New Jersey, June 21, 1944; John Hernandez, Pvt., 8 Inf., 4 Div., Nebraska, June 23, 1944."

These names mean nothing to the French, 91 percent of whom, according to a poll, are against President Bush's plans to make Saddam a dark mark in history.

But then again, the French are against everything, including that curious American habit of showering every day.

But wait a minute.

It seems our brave allies are now putting all their French toast in one basket.

They have a 12,000-man contingent training, they say. And it's equipped with one - count it - one amphibious-assault vessel.

Give me a break.

I know some veterans who would say that if the French are in training, they are training to throw up their arms in surrender.

B. Rice Aston, from Houston, the president-general of the Sons of the American Revolution, was visiting here with fellow members.

As he approached the monument in the cemetery, he said: "Remember what Henry Kissinger said. The French are prickly. If you're at the top of the ladder, they sometimes want to shake it for you to fall off."

You walk another hundred yards near hallowed turf: "George Uttering, Pvt., 12 Inf., 4 Div., New York, June 7, 1944; Ramond Carey, 2 Lt., 319, 82 Airborne, New York, July 4, 1944; Ercal W. Netzer, Pfc., 22 Inf., West Virginia, June 7, 1944."

As the sun tries to peek through those mourning clouds, I meet Jessica Silverman, a student from George Washington University, studying here in France. As a college student, she never has been gung-ho for any war.

But Jessica, of Maine, told me, "Nothing has happened to me, but we have been told something that is a little disturbing.

"We have been told that if we face any kind of a threat, we should say we're Canadians, not Americans."

Now isn't that just fine, Americans in France having to pretend they're not Americans.

If they had done that in 1944, the French would have replaced "La Marseillaise" with the Nazi anthem, "Deutchland Uber Alles."

It chills the bone when the French government and so many of its citizens steadfastly try to undermine Bush, even sneer at him, when so many of them were saved by the nation he leads - with the greatest band of brothers on earth.

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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 01:55 PM
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first of all the Belgium leadership is a disgrace for tyring to block attempts to protect Turkey...second, the article forgets to mention how the French helped in the revolutionary war--America as it once was (not anymore) most likely would not have been if not for the help of the French
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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 04:01 PM
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An Open Letter to the French Legation to the United Nations
by Alan Turin

Two-hundred twenty five years ago when France was still governed by the ancien regime your country extended itself on behalf of patriots fighting here for their liberty and independence from England.

Perhaps without the French navy and direct material support to our cause from France herself, American liberty and independence, might have been secured.

What is indisputable was that French support was critical and France came through.

In 1918 when General Pershing arrived in France he acknowledged part of that debt by declaring, "Lafayette, nous sommes ici." Today I have family who are grateful to the United States for ousting the Nazis from France.

France, a kingdom then, invested in a future of democratic-republican liberty in 1778 and it has paid dividends for you.

I am asking France to invest in America again.

What I am asking France to do is what you are already inclined to do.

Exercise your veto at the UN Security Council to deny a war resolution against Iraq.

What I ask France to do for the United States is prevent an imperial war. Put a different way: save America from homegrown imperialists whose fevered nightmare vision threatens this country’s founding ideal: a nation conceived in liberty.

Our constitution has been perverted, usurped and ignored on the question of war. For a generation the rationale of centralizing foreign policy in the Presidency was a "cold war" against a military and diplomatic foe. That threat passed over a decade ago.

That cold war apparatus having lost its justifying mission now searches for a war to justify a mission.

Most Americans oppose going to war without UN and allied support. This war would plunge the Middle East into wider war and blowback terrorism into Europe, the Americas and wider.

It is contrary to France’s interest to see the American empire stagger into the wider disaster of war that will unleash forces that no regime can either contain or foresee.

It is in the interest of France and Europe for America to move to a republican [lower-case "R"] foreign policy and away from empire.

A veto by France against an Iraq war resolution would be an act of statesmanship that future generations would mark as a turning point toward civilization and retreat from the long march into barbarism that began with the Great War.

Yes, you would feel the ire of the present regime. Already the honor of France is being smeared here. Smile at such: there are institutional strengths within France that will sustain you in the gale of abuse. Yes they will "Cry havoc! And let loose the poodles of war." You might reply, "Chacun a son betise."

Remember that when one is delirious, one takes no offense to the ravings of the ill. There is no worse delirium than empire. France has walked that path and paid its price. In the name of humanity, sympathy and blood spilt as allies: I ask France to do what you are already inclined to do.

French blood was shed to help free America over two hundred years ago. Surely France is strong enough to endure the ravings that would come.

Aidez-nous, Lafayette.
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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 04:08 PM
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First af all, Belgium will help defend Turkey in case of a war, but that's beside the point. Our government simply decided to choose the side of the people, who generally oppose war, because we've got elections coming up.

Anyway, it's time to stop all this freedom crap, save the world BS, everyone knows what it's all about. The USA is attacking France for doing the exact same thing they're doing. France is defending the exact same thing as the USA. The only difference is that for France it's achieved by not going to war, for the USA it's achieved by going to war.

France will sway in the end, don't worry. France knows only too well that there will be a war, Bush decided that long ago, and it's better to be the American side since they'll be the ones deviding the 'wealth' afterwards.

In the end, innocent Iraqis will be killed and we'll all benefit.

And @ the article: "How to add to the already existing prejudices"
So the French don't shower, do they? That's new to me.

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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by seabiscuit
first of all the Belgium leadership is a disgrace for tyring to block attempts to protect Turkey...second, the article forgets to mention how the French helped in the revolutionary war--America as it once was (not anymore) most likely would not have been if not for the help of the French
the American leadership is a disgrace for the whole fucking world. I totally support our government's decision. Not everybody should kiss Bush's ass

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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 05:56 PM
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i thought this was a free world ....i also thought countries had the right to make their own minds up
.....or is that just america these day's??????

.....i think that "newspaper" page above is just sickening,how could they use their own war hero's as propaganda to get their own way like a 2 year old infant.france is france not another state of america,i wish they could respect that.

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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Noodles
the American leadership is a disgrace for the whole fucking world. I totally support our government's decision. Not everybody should kiss Bush's ass
well said !!!

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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 06:08 PM
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I find it appalling that the NY Post used WWII to further the misrepresentation of European countries. Many in the USA want to allow the inspectors more time. But as our election process shows, the majority is still a minority. We can only hope for a quick end to the war that is coming. If this does not happen, I fear the worst.

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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 06:26 PM
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I don't care about propaganda. ANd I know how much it means - means nothing. But if you think that demarche by the sweet threesome ( France, Germany, Russia ) is anything but propaganda, you are the one confused.

I don't care what is US's real agenda at this war will be. I have no sympathy for Mr. Bush or that corrupted character Ms. Rice, and everyone knows what are their motives. But I also know that strict abiding by international laws in all situations is a way into nowhere, way to a catastrophe. And I know that Iraq will be a better place without Saddam, I am sure that Iraqis will live better without Saddam, and this world will be a better and safer place without Saddam, and totally, there will be less victims if he is taken out now, not later. And I don't care what will be a pretext for taking him out..

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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 07:16 PM
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So what happens....

ys, when someone decides that the world would be a better place without Bush? Or Sharon? Or any head of state? The US is setting a dangerous precedent - as evidenced by N. Korea's statement last week - Why is pre-emptive strike only the prerogative of the US?

Perhaps the Iraqi people (as well as Cuban) would be better off if the embargo were lifted so that they can import and export and make decent livings.

Maybe the Iraqi people would be better off if the US HAD NOT HELPED HUSSEIN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Maybe the Iraqi people would be better off if the US HAD NOT HELPED HUSSEIN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
What's done - done. We are talking about a future..

Quote:
The US is setting a dangerous precedent - as evidenced by N. Korea's statement last week -
Which precedent? Do you really think that all those international organisations, UN,EU, etc have any logics behind them and any meaning at all? Think about that.

We ( under flag of UN ) are now demanding for Saddam to disarm from all weapons of mass destruction, which we see as a threat to US and other countries, right? But the only real pretext for that demand still remains Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990. Can you see any logical link between Saddam invading Kuwait and our demand about his WMDs? I can't.

What if he wouldn't have invaded Kuwait at the first place? Would the need to disarm him be any less if he wouldn't? Of course, not. So, what would we be doing now in that case? Just shows that international laws won't prevent the problem. It would rather help the problem to develop even further.


Quote:
Why is pre-emptive strike only the prerogative of the US?
It has never been the prerogative of US.

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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 10:27 PM
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Dumb article about the French

It just perpetuates stereotypes of them in the U.S.

However, it would be better of France and Belgium not to boycott Turkey getting help, I don't see what the point of that is besides having a greater rift between them and the U.S. and leaving Turkey hanging. Even if they don't think the U.S. should go to war, not helping Turkey is not the way to go.

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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 11:04 PM
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The French-German-Belgian position:

Turkey has requested us to help with precautionary measures in case of a war with Iraq. We are going to veto a decision to help them because it is not yet certain that a war will break out, and we are at the same time working hard to find a peaceful solution. Sending Patriot missile batteries to Turkey will escalate the conflict. We do want to help Turkey, but not as this time.

The US and its supporters:

Turkey, a member of our NATO club, is afraid it might be targeted by Iraqi Scud missiles in the case of a war. As the option of war is still on the table, we should fulfill Turkey's request and put defensive measures in place. Iraq attacked Israel, which did not take part in the Gulf War, with 39 missiles in 1991. This time Saddam may employ chemical weapons in similar attacks, if he is desperate and about to be disposed in a second Gulf War.

- I think it's very clear who are playing politics here. And it's also very clear that this does serious harm to NATO. Installing Patriot missiles in Turkey is not even a tertiary issue in the current conflict. I doubt the Iraqi leadership will even pay notice, although I'm sure they will rejoice at the NATO crisis, which has been triggered by something that really shouldn't have been an issue. When Turkey feels threatened and asks for help, solely for defensive purposes, I think the other NATO members are obliged to do a bit more than filibustering the issue.
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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 11th, 2003, 11:24 PM
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What does serious harm to NATO is trying to drag it into lining up in an unprovoked attack on Iraq that most people in Europe don't agree with.

There is NO threat to Turkey at the moment. The only threat would arise if Turkey was used as a base to attack and kill Iraqis. That is nothing to do with DEFENSE, which is what NATO is supposed to be about.

The trouble is that arrogant politicians in the US and UK have decided they can trample over the UN Charter and international law, and that everyone else's role is to follow and applaud.

The US wanted us to get involved in Vietnam as well.

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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old Feb 12th, 2003, 12:06 AM
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I think it's up to Turkey to determine if its feels threatened or not. And apparently they do. In fact, they want to make the same kind of preparations as Israel has already made, or is in the process of carrying out. Patriot batteries are solely for air defense.

The issue of the U.S. utilizing military bases in Turkey doesn't have anything to do with this NATO decision. That wasn't what Germany, France, and Beligum vetoed.

Saddam tried to deliver a few Scud missiles to Bahrain and Saudi Arabia during Gulf War I, so it doesn't seem unlikely that he would target Turkey, another Muslim country, this time.

As for violating international law, I'm sure Baghdad could lend its expertise.
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