Let's have a constructive discussion on rape culture - Page 2 - TennisForum.com
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post #16 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:07 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

She's a good hearted woman, give her a break. It really wasn't that bad.

People also forget that most tennis players are dumb as shit and you should listen to nothing they say that is not tennis-related. Does anyone care what the top NFL quarterbacks think about any current events? I rest my case.

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post #17 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:12 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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She's a good hearted woman, give her a break. It really wasn't that bad.

People also forget that most tennis players are dumb as shit and you should listen to nothing they say that is not tennis-related. Does anyone care what the top NFL quarterbacks think about any current events? I rest my case.
You're in the spotlight, Serena could have grimaced a cheeky queef and it would of made world wide news.
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post #18 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:23 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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Frankly yes. I'm not one who believes in policing the thoughts of other people. I care about how a person acts not how they think.

And yes people are capable of thinking one way and acting another.
I didnt mention how they act, just what they say outside the house. If they are racist, of course they are going to act according to their thinking, even if they dont say it out loud.

The theory that you can keep your ignorance in the house is just ridiculous. What you say at home reflects your convictions and the kind of person you are.
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post #19 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:28 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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I didnt mention how they act, just what they say outside the house. If they are racist, of course they are going to act according to their thinking, even if they dont say it out loud.

The theory that you can keep your ignorance in the house is just ridiculous. What you say at home reflects your convictions and the kind of person you are.

I call . I know that I personally am able to treat people the way I want to be treated even if I don't like them at all. And I suspect that most people who have self control do it on a daily basis.

This idea that we are slaves to our emotions is silly. I judge actions. I leave the judging of a person's heart to God.

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #20 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:28 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

Here's the link to my only comment in GM about this: http://www.tennisforum.com/showthrea...1#post29772721

According to RVD, I reached "an unprecedented level of illogical reasoning". All the other people who replied to my comment or sent me a message with the reputation system agreed with me.

Again, I have to stress that I find unfortunate that all the debate has been centered about whether Serena is right or wrong, and very little has been said about how this topic should be discussed. What I find disturbing is not so much Serena's opinion, but how she appears to think you can candidly comment on a case like this the same nonchalant way you can comment on Sharapova or cinnamon rolls. Judging from the majority of replies in this forum, unfortunately she's far from being alone.
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post #21 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:40 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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I call . I know that I personally am able to treat people the way I want to be treated even if I don't like them at all. And I suspect that most people who have self control do it on a daily basis.

This idea that we are slaves to our emotions is silly. I judge actions. I leave the judging of a person's heart to God.
You might be able to keep up pretences when you talk to people, but it might affect other actions you do which are not so visible. If you are ignorant and uneducated, that cant be helped until you get some education.
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post #22 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:50 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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How is this balanced? It's polite, but it's one sided.


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"I've been a prosecutor in Northern California for 17 years, and for the last four, I prosecuted sexual assault cases, including child molestation and adult rape. I cannot tell you how many potential jurors espouse views similar to Serena's: The victim of rape is somehow responsible for the crime because she put herself in a situation that made it easier for young men to commit crimes against her, and that the young men are somehow less responsible for their actions because the girl was drunk.
Speaking generally this is a source of misunderstanding. I don't think many people are arguing rapists are less responsible, just feel after the prosecution has occurred, calling out a victims foolishness, negligence or errors (all in an attempt to educate others to not make similar mistakes) is not unreasonable. Don't drink yourself unconscious, it's not safe.


Might be worn out on this topic actually...
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post #23 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 02:53 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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My doubles partner is an avid Serena fan. And it really took a lot out of me to speak with him about this, because he was defending Serena's perspective. And my biggest issue with this entire thing is that when it comes to taking advantage of someone, it doesn't matter what the victim did, you never just go and rape someone. Should that girl have gotten so drunk that she was unconscious from it, of course not, but that has no bearing on who is responsible for what happened. You don't rape people. My problem with Serena's perspective is that she comes like she thinks, if you make bad decisions, you will sometimes have to deal with the consequences. If she had suffered through intense medical issues of because of this, yes, that would have been entirely her fault. The consequences of getting drunk off your ass should never be sexual assault.
Yes she isn't responsible, but post prosecution it is worth pointing out her foolishness to all young girls who may find themselves in this situation. Some guys out there have nasty deeds on their minds. Drinking yourself unconscious is not helping your safety. Serena's comments have some value and common sense. Sadly it's being totally ignored.
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post #24 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 03:13 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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You might be able to keep up pretences when you talk to people, but it might affect other actions you do which are not so visible. If you are ignorant and uneducated, that cant be helped until you get some education.
Let me give you a real case from my life. I served on a jury in Los Angeles several years ago. There was a gang member being charged with carrying a weapon (a tire iron) in his car. I have no love at all for gang members. I have a bias against them and think that they are blights on civilization especially during that time period.

However, even though I had no doubt that this guy had done a bunch of foul shit in his life, I was one of those who argued very forcefully that the fact that the D.A even brought that case was a load of crap. We wound up acquitting the guy and later the judge invited the jury into his chambers and told us that he thought the verdict was correct.

If I had heard that the guy we acquitted was later killed in a drive by I would have said, hey, you reap what you sow. You play that game that's what you get.

But this was a case where I did not let my personal strong dislike of and bias against gang members get in the way of my acting fairly.

Now perhaps you can't help but act on your emotions. If so, you need to grow up. Part of being a discerning adult is being able to separate feelings from actions.

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #25 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 03:15 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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I see basically three camps of people here. The first camp are the diehard Serena fans, who see any controversy surrounding Serena as another attempt to sabotage her image. .
I think this is a misjudgement. A lot of diehard serena fans expressed disappointment, but those that did not expressed their opinions in some detail. Opinion widely speaking is actually split, though disapproval is louder. Some diehard Serena fans just agree with the essential message. I might be nitpicking but I haven't seen much blind fandom.

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I won't deny that there may be a few good reasons to feel this way, especially with many past incidents and some pretty biased commentators, but this time I feel that the issue has gone beyond that. Serena expressed a view that feeds right into the hands of rape culture, and no matter how she is liked/disliked, I don't think anyone would deny that she is a strong woman, and her views of rape culture is detrimental to women's rights when she is regarded as their stalwart.
It's good to have public debate, but we need to have a separate talk about putting the views of celebrities on a pedastal. Her lone words shouldn't influence womens rights - that should only be considered if several prominent women spoke out as well.


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This brings me to the second camp of people, the ones who like Serena hold views that have been quite heavily entrenched from the older generation, and touched upon in the balanced response by someone I posted up there. .
Speaking for myself, my I guess I'll be in this category but just want to say my views have little/nothing to do with an older generation, but more to do with my personal views of common sense and personal responsibility. We don't live in a Utopia. The annual figures for rapes are usually in their hundreds of thousand per year, in the US alone. In my view, all young women ought to be aware of the realistic dangers by now. Millions of women have been date raped at parties, I've even seen it in movies. It is unacceptable for anyone to drink themselves unconscious in an environment with strangers. This does not excuse rape at all, but it's about time foolishness stopped.


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In fact, I think it is important to speak out against this very unenlightened notion of victim responsibility, because not doing so leads to the slippery slope of extremist modesty we see in some countries, and male tendencies are tolerated instead of being expected to be controlled.
I guess, but young men and women must be made aware of real and present dangers. This is not a Utopia. It's not just rape. Parents shouldn't be leaving very young children to play alone in the street considering the millions of abductions that occur. But they do, inspite of all the relentless new cases. It doesn't excuse crimes, but the carelessness that still goes on.
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post #26 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 03:18 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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Yes she isn't responsible, but post prosecution it is worth pointing out her foolishness to all young girls who may find themselves in this situation. Some guys out there have nasty deeds on their minds. Drinking yourself unconscious is not helping your safety. Serena's comments have some value and common sense. Sadly it's being totally ignored.
True. In fact the thread that was locked in GM really evolved into a discussion about whether or not telling people that drinking themselves into a drunken stupor is probably not the best way to stay safe, is a good thing or not.

The Utopians in that thread believe telling a person to take common sense precautions is attacking and blaming the victim.

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #27 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 03:20 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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True. In fact the thread that was locked in GM really evolved into a discussion about whether or not telling people that drinking themselves into a drunken stupor is probably not the best way to stay safe, is a good thing or not.

The Utopians in that thread believe telling a person to take common sense precautions is attacking and blaming the victim.
I know. I'd be laughing about it, if the mindless knee jerk responses weren't so widespeard. Oh well.
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post #28 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 03:53 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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Yes she isn't responsible, but post prosecution it is worth pointing out her foolishness to all young girls who may find themselves in this situation. Some guys out there have nasty deeds on their minds. Drinking yourself unconscious is not helping your safety. Serena's comments have some value and common sense. Sadly it's being totally ignored.
this.
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post #29 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 03:59 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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Yes she isn't responsible, but post prosecution it is worth pointing out her foolishness to all young girls who may find themselves in this situation. Some guys out there have nasty deeds on their minds. Drinking yourself unconscious is not helping your safety. Serena's comments have some value and common sense. Sadly it's being totally ignored.
This is the same thing that my doubles partner says. My response is a little lofty: Nothing that anyone does should ever lead to rape. And I understand that we don't live in a perfect world, and there are monsters out there who would take advantage of your vulnerability. And I think that any conversation about this after prosecution needs to underscore that while nothing you could ever do should lead to getting sexually assaulted that there are perverts out there who will use your poor judgment against you. And that's not what Serena said. I think her wording emphasized the victim's errors, and I think that that's what was really difficult to understand. I don't remember where I read this, but there was an article where Serena was quote as saying, "unless they put something in her drink, then that's another story." To me, I understood that as her saying that because they didn't put something in the victim's drink that she was somehow in some way responsible.

I'm not trying to vilify Serena, I just think that we need to very careful with how we discuss not just rape culture but the entire world that victims of abuse live in.
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post #30 of 191 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 2013, 05:54 AM
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Re: A balanced response to the Serena faux pas

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This is the same thing that my doubles partner says. My response is a little lofty: Nothing that anyone does should ever lead to rape. And I understand that we don't live in a perfect world, and there are monsters out there who would take advantage of your vulnerability. And I think that any conversation about this after prosecution needs to underscore that while nothing you could ever do should lead to getting sexually assaulted that there are perverts out there who will use your poor judgment against you. And that's not what Serena said. I think her wording emphasized the victim's errors, and I think that that's what was really difficult to understand. I don't remember where I read this, but there was an article where Serena was quote as saying, "unless they put something in her drink, then that's another story." To me, I understood that as her saying that because they didn't put something in the victim's drink that she was somehow in some way responsible.

I'm not trying to vilify Serena, I just think that we need to very careful with how we discuss not just rape culture but the entire world that victims of abuse live in.
i think some people fear that any dialogue at all about what rape victims should have done differently opens the door to victim blaming and detracts from the "rape is wrong no matter what" message. there's a lot of validity to that. we as a society need to completely eliminate the mentality where a boy can see a girl passed out and think "she's asking for it".

BUT teenage girls need to use this incident as a cautionary tale. don't get wasted at parties, don't walk alone in sketchy neighbourhoods, don't get into a stranger's car, etc. shutting down that discussion altogether is pretty irresponsible towards future potential victims.
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