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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 03:20 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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I'm pessimistic. If it's true, amazing, but it's one coin. You'd imagine that if the Chinese came to Africa that there will be more evidence of this relationship than one coin. I'm especially keen on cultural impact. If there was trade, what did the Chinese bring? And why is there no proof of this in the way these Kenyans lived their lives and vice versa. If it were the Chinese making the trek to Africa, where is written record of these excursions? And again, what did they bring back to China, and how did they use these things?
There is a theory that the Chinese did at lot exploring during that time, even possibly landing on North America (Nova Scotia and Carolina.) It`s they had large boats that could carry 20,000 people.

The Chinese brought back things like animals like giraffes and apparently this freaked out the Ming Dynasty. They then destroyed the boats and the documents and began their isolationism. Money and politics played a roll also...


http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_histo...voya/ming.html

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The development of Chinese shipbuilding and techniques of navigation on the Asian sea routes made Cheng Ho's voyages possible. His seagoing junks were very large with four decks and up to a dozen watertight compartments. They navigated by using the compass and detailed sailing directions that brought them to the coasts of China's customary tributaries, such as Siam and Vietnam. In addition to these some fifty new places were visited and their rulers enrolled as tributaries. Missions from Hormuz and the African coast came to China four times, from Bengal eleven times. Rulers in Sumatra and Ceylon were brought back into the system by force. For the leaders of these expeditions adventure, fame, and profit were all gained. Commercially these expeditions provided a line of communication with the existing overseas Chinese communities in Southeast Asian ports. Politically, the tribute system was expanded from land-based trading partners to sea-trading partners. Thus incorporating much of the known world into the Chinese concept of the universal rule of the Son of Heaven.

After the beginning of 1433 China's beginnings as a naval power were suddenly stopped, never to resume again. One reason for this was their great cost, at a time when the Ming were paying for their campaigns against the Mongols and financing the building of Peking, the expeditions were criticized as expensive adventures. The court eunuchs that promoted the expeditions came under considerable opposition from their rivals, the scholar-officials -- so much so that Cheng Ho's accomplishments were practically suppressed from the historical record. Cheng Ho was an organizer, a commander, a diplomat, and an able courtier, but he was not a trader. No chartered companies, like the Virginia Company or the Hudson Bay Company, emerged to found colonies or establish overseas trade. Unlike its European counterparts, the Chinese state remained uninterested in the commercial and colonial possibilities overseas. This was partially due to the Ming government's major source of revenue coming from land tax and not from trade tax. Thus Ming China failed to become a maritime power. Through this default, the Eastern seas and eventually China's own coast would be dominated by a secession of non-Chinese seafaring peoples -- the Japanese, the Portuguese and Spanish, the Dutch, and finally the British and the Americans.
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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 03:25 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 03:33 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

I wouldn't be surprised either way--that the Chinese explored that far, or that some relics of Chinese culture were traded and passed on by intermediates.

We tend to forget just how much trade passed through Africa back in the days when trade among Asia, Africa and Europe centered on the Mediterranean Sea. Africa was home to some major cities and trade centers (Timbuktu being the most famous, but there were many others) that were quite advanced.

The switch to Atlantic trade had a devastating effect on not only these cities, but also the Italian city states and much of the Islamic world (Samarkand for example suffering much the same fate as Timbuktu).


(Okay, we don't so much tend to forget as have that written out of Eurocentric history books).

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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 04:52 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
JN stick to your niche threads. I would much rather talk with tennisbum.

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Do you care listing just few of the ways?

I am sure these findings will go to peer review of scientists, historians, anthropological excavators
It feels like the importance of this is somewhat overblown in the article, which makes a claim that Chinese traded with Africans before Europeans when they have a single coin to go by with no other evidence?

I don't see how this makes sense if the coin was minted in the last thirty years of a civilisation that lasted for over twelve hundred years? How about the Middle Eastern traders who traded with Africa and China? Also what trade could possibly have happened if the civilization died out as soon as the supposed trade began? Also the article makes no new information available to the world, the fact that Zheng He travelled as far south as Malindi in modern day Kenya on his fourth voyage was previously known. It is basically a sad attempt by a researcher to get some press.

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My understanding of his post was more into "don't get sure yet" but I may misunderstood him.

Anyway, I also agree with you and I hope it will provoke quite a lot of people to try and dig a little bit more into the region's history.
As anyone with an unbiased mindset should understand.






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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 07:46 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

Good to see there are people here know who Zheng He is

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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 08:00 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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JN stick to your niche threads. I would much rather talk with tennisbum.



It feels like the importance of this is somewhat overblown in the article, which makes a claim that Chinese traded with Africans before Europeans when they have a single coin to go by with no other evidence?

I don't see how this makes sense if the coin was minted in the last thirty years of a civilisation that lasted for over twelve hundred years? How about the Middle Eastern traders who traded with Africa and China? Also what trade could possibly have happened if the civilization died out as soon as the supposed trade began? Also the article makes no new information available to the world, the fact that Zheng He travelled as far south as Malindi in modern day Kenya on his fourth voyage was previously known. It is basically a sad attempt by a researcher to get some press.

.
Archaeological research is more sophisticated now, they will sort this out to your satisfaction

You make it sound like their claim or announcement was the last word, making your responses come ac cross as an overreaction to a process that has just started..

When the process has completed, they would put to rest your concerns, doubt or fear of overstating the meaning of the findings.


If it is inconclusive and the archaeologists, historians and scientist are divided at the end, the debate will continue, then your can chose a side.
There is such an ongoing debate now on The Shroud of Turin. Was it or was it not the burial cloth of Jesus?

Last edited by tennislover22; Mar 25th, 2013 at 08:05 AM.
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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 08:10 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

Certainly an interesting discovery.

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Originally Posted by Lin Lin View Post
Good to see there are people here know who Zheng He is
Who is more legendary in China, Zheng He or Xuanzang?




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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 08:15 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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Originally Posted by Lin Lin View Post
Good to see there are people here know who Zheng He is
What place does this have in China's educational history books?
Is there a mention of Chinese exploration in (East)Africa?
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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 10:58 AM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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Politics ( it probably was recorded ) .





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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 12:56 PM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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JN stick to your niche threads. I would much rather talk with tennisbum.
So would I, and no one forced you to reply.

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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 01:23 PM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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Certainly an interesting discovery.

Who is more legendary in China, Zheng He or Xuanzang?
Neither.

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
What place does this have in China's educational history books?
Is there a mention of Chinese exploration in (East)Africa?
The subject is not complementary to current China.

Zheng He was taking care of business (not 'exploring') .

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Don't assume - Lin Lin may not even know what is going on across the river in Yantai .

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Are China bowls called China because they are from China?
In short, yes. It was respected and valued because it came from China ( may be referred to as 'fine' china as well)
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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 01:31 PM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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Good to see there are people here know who Zheng He is
why do you need certificates of recognition from foreigners about zheng (one of your leaders/kings of the past i guess?) i don't care if people din't know about gandhi......
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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 05:59 PM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Archaeological research is more sophisticated now, they will sort this out to your satisfaction

You make it sound like their claim or announcement was the last word, making your responses come ac cross as an overreaction to a process that has just started..

When the process has completed, they would put to rest your concerns, doubt or fear of overstating the meaning of the findings.


If it is inconclusive and the archaeologists, historians and scientist are divided at the end, the debate will continue, then your can chose a side.
There is such an ongoing debate now on The Shroud of Turin. Was it or was it not the burial cloth of Jesus?
The article should have included a may before suggest then. Otherwise it is making claims that it cannot back up at this point of the research process.






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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 06:57 PM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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The article should have included a may before suggest then. Otherwise it is making claims that it cannot back up at this point of the research process.
the article doesn't say "suggest". it's more confident than that!

Ancient coin proves that China was trading with East Africa long before Europeans arrived
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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2013, 08:48 PM
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Re: Ancient coin suggests that China was trading with E. Africa before Europeans arr

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Neither.
What do you mean neither?




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