Okay, dems, repubs, liberals, greens, conservatives - I have a statement to make - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:19 AM Thread Starter
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Okay, dems, repubs, liberals, greens, conservatives - I have a statement to make

Not that it really matters

But as a hardcore liberal, I have come to a hard decision:

I favor regime change in Iraq and Saudia Arabia.......maybe Iran.

First up, would be Iraq. Make is as quick as possible, but keep our folks there to ensure the transition is made thoroughly.

This upsets me, because I can't believe I agree with partially of what Bush wants....but for the good of the WORLD I want Sadaam out.....

God.....what am I thinking?


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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:21 AM
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Have you seen how much it might cost?
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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:24 AM Thread Starter
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I believe it is worth it in the long run......as a liberal, I'm not usually concerned with how much stuff is going to cost - so long as it is done properly.


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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:27 AM
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Me Thinks That Someone May Be Less Of A Hardcore Liberal And A Great Deal More Moderate Than They Might Like To Think.
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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:33 AM
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It's a baaaaad precedent!!!!

What if China wants regime change in Taiwan, Brazil in Uraguay, Nigeria in Liberia, Mexico in El Salvador, Spain in Puerto Rico, etc.

It would never end. I still go with the UN approach to solve these problems.
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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:36 AM
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VS Fan, I bring up cost only because the American economy is in quagmire right now, and war with Iraq would be a huge expenditure. Perhaps it's not the right time with the economy in the shape it is?

i also agree with Choco, and I posted a thread way back about Bush' shady reason for wanting this war.

Barrie dude, you can be a liberal and still support a war.
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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 06:42 AM
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oh VS, it happens to the best of us. I am always surprised by how I'm supporting a president that is so pro-life . and on some occasions I find myself thinking that a specific step by Sharon was the right one, even though I'm hard core left. it's called being a balanced adult, and not blindly following the group you've alliened(sp) yourself with.

and KL, though I get what you're saying about cost, you should also realize that the economic affects of a war aren't that predictable. yes, the war will cost money, but that money will be mostly put into american military industry, and the army... the economy is already moving in the direction of a recession, a war could actually be the thing to reverse the trend (not that that's a reason to go to war, but still, sometimes these things boost an economy). besides not everything is about money, sometimes you have to do what you think is right, and what you think is needed to protect yourself. people everywhere seem to feel it's unsafe to travel, to vacation in places they used to... our sense of security is worth the expense. and I object to people who suggest this war is only about oil. that seems so inaccurate to me. the cost of oil will probably rise because of war, and where it will go after the war, no-one knows.

It's too soon to aim for peace. Aim for better conflict management.

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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 10:39 AM
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I agree with Choco. It's a very bad precedent.


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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 11:15 AM
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And I suppose getting rid of Hitler in, say, 1938 would also have been a "bad precedent".

I think successfully getting rid of a dangerous, murderous regime would be a *good* precedent.

That doesn't mean I'm pushing for it right now... and I don't take the expense in money and human life lightly, for example... but I don't get this "bad precedent" idea. Do you guys (apart from Noga) have any idea of what the doctrine of prcedent is all about? It's only a precedent if the reasoning that justifies it justifies other action. But there is no reasoning in support of getting rid of Saddam that could be used to support getting rid of, say, the regime in Taiwan.

No one is saying that the principle to be followed is that any nation can attack any other nation for any reason it likes. It is that some small number of regimes are better removed for everyone's sake because they are a tyrannical and a danger to world peace.

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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 11:28 AM
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But who determines who's good and who's bad?

In Hitler's case it was clear, as for Iraq, they're still looking for a reason to attack Iraq.

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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 11:38 AM
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great post Joui. this is so true. people are using this "fear of precedent" as an excuse not to act at all. think what you will about this fight, but don't say we shouldn't fight it now, because it will set a "precedent" for later. it will not.

(and yes Joui, I know what a precedent is . and I'm in court actually for the next 3 days... it's a treat for a corporate lawyer like me who settles everything out of court. also, 3 days of Tel Aviv sunshine instead of Jerusalem cold )

It's too soon to aim for peace. Aim for better conflict management.

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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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I favor a regime change where the citizens are not allowed personal freedoms......this includes China.

But most importantly, we need to start with Iraq and do it ASAP - I'm tired of the talking, the UN report that Iraq turned in was full of shit (this caused me to change my mind). I mean - they may not have "weapons of mass destruction" but who cares - Sadaam does not treat his people in any humanly way possible.

As USA, we are the worlds strongest country, so we can decide who needs a regime change and when

Nahh -- I think it's best to work as a group to do something like this - I mean, it would be great if we had help (sans France) but you are not always gonna have 100% support from all the countries - so if we need to go it alone, then so be so. We will win regardless, that I am sure of it.

And Noga thanks for the support.....I don't know WHY I'm feeling this way.....it's scary.


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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 11:45 AM
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but Tine, Hitler looks like a clear case to you now, but it wasn't then. countries took their good time. had their doubts. talked about waiting, about the nature of his intentions and that maybe they didn't go "that far" so it's better to just wait him out. just like now. Saddam is not hitler, but you get my point. you only know for sure if you did the right thing with the passage of time, looking back. we have to decide what to do NOW. it's a risk. you have to take a stand without being 100% sure. that's the tricky part.

It's too soon to aim for peace. Aim for better conflict management.

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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beggin' Beguine
But who determines who's good and who's bad?

In Hitler's case it was clear, as for Iraq, they're still looking for a reason to attack Iraq.
As I said I'm not necessarily pushing for it to happen now. I still have a lot of reservations about attacking Iraq. But, as Noga says, you can never be sure. Maybe if we (which basically means the US and its allies) don't do it - and soon - we'll regret our inaction. Unfortunately, it's a complex world and we have to live all the time with moral uncertainty.

But as for who determines who's good and bad.... well we are arguing about whether we think taking violent action to get rid of Saddam is or is not justified. The only people who can put the arguments right now are us, as individuals. Whatever Bush does, we will have to decide as individuals, based on whatever we know, whether he did the right thing. But a judgment that he did the right thing in launching an attack (if that is what happens) does not commit us to also thinking that it would be right for Brazil to try to get a regime change in Uruguay (or was it the other way around). We simply have to call the situations how we see them, against our principles and whatever knowledge we have.

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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 2002, 12:23 PM
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But the USA didn't first help Hitler to get power, did they? The USA didn't send weapons to Germany first only to fight against them later. How many of the weapons Iraq has are produced in Iraq?

You want a regime change in Iraq, fine, who are you going to replace Saddam with? Some pro-USA puppet who'll turn against in the USA in a few years so you can attack them again and change the regime again?

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