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post #1 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
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Belfast riots



(Maybe Dublin can send in Irish troops to help restore the peace)

7 January 2013 Last updated at 17:02 ET

Belfast flags trouble: Police use water cannon in East Belfast

The BBC's Chris Page says it is a "seriously challenging night" for police, as footage shows violence and a hijacked lorry on the streets. Water cannon have been used after rioting erupts for a fifth night in east Belfast.

The disorder began close to the nationalist Short Strand area as loyalists returned from a protest at the city hall. Police were attacked with petrol bombs and bricks while separating rival groups. Protests have been held since councillors voted to limit the days the union flag flies over city hall.

Motorists are advised to avoid the Lower Newtownards Road, Albertbridge Road and Templemore Avenue areas due to ongoing disorder. Petrol bombs, fireworks and other missiles were also thrown at police during rioting on Robbs Road in Dundonald on Monday evening.

A car was set on fire in Bute Park. Earlier, the Police Service of Northern Ireland chief constable said that individual senior loyalist paramilitaries had been involved in orchestrating violence during union flag protests in east Belfast.

Matt Baggott said there was "no excuse whatsoever" for violence. He said if protests continued in the long-term, day-to-day policing would be affected. This included his officers' ability to deal with the threat from dissident republicans, he added.

More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20940126
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post #2 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 10:11 PM
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Re: Belfast riots

I guarantee this would be a bigger story if Nationalists were the ones on the streets. The daily fail would go bat shit crazy.
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post #3 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 10:15 PM
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Re: Belfast riots

Dreadful behaviour, using whatever excuse for violence and mayhem. Just as both sides have been doing there for decades. Loyalist thugs this time time, Republican thugs that time, cut from the same cloth.

This shows the flaw in your analysis of the "troubles". It's based on the notion that mainland Britain is the source of the problem and that a simple withdrawal would lead to peace in our time in a united Ireland.

The reality is much more grim...we have all long been held hostage by extremists on both sides, mainland Britain gets nothing out of Northern Ireland but trouble but is trapped.

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post #4 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post

Dreadful behaviour, using whatever excuse for violence and mayhem. Just as both sides have been doing there for decades. Loyalist thugs this time time, Republican thugs that time, cut from the same cloth.

This shows the flaw in your analysis of the "troubles". It's based on the notion that mainland Britain is the source of the problem and that a simple withdrawal would lead to peace in our time in a united Ireland.

The reality is much more grim...we have all long been held hostage by extremists on both sides, mainland Britain gets nothing out of Northern Ireland but trouble but is trapped.
Maybe just as the US and Britain together couldn't create true peace in Iraq, or any real peace in Afghanistan, the Bloody Brits should just go home and let those who actually live in Ireland settle things.... @ the table if possible, in the streets if necessary.
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post #5 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 11:36 PM
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
Dreadful behaviour, using whatever excuse for violence and mayhem. Just as both sides have been doing there for decades. Loyalist thugs this time time, Republican thugs that time, cut from the same cloth.

This shows the flaw in your analysis of the "troubles". It's based on the notion that mainland Britain is the source of the problem and that a simple withdrawal would lead to peace in our time in a united Ireland.

The reality is much more grim...we have all long been held hostage by extremists on both sides, mainland Britain gets nothing out of Northern Ireland but trouble but is trapped.
I think pre-Celtic Tiger most people in the Republic would've wanted a united Ireland. I got the impression during the boom years that people wanted this less and less as reunification would've been extremely taxing politically, socially and economically. Now that Ireland has struggled so much since 2008 and the beginnings of a recovery are in sight, I doubt many people other than fanatics want a reunified country. People see the reality of what a united Ireland would be. We're not mired in the dream anymore. I wish more fanatical loyalists would see this but any fanatic sees what they want to, I suppose.

Still, Halardfan, it might sound cold but the British created this whole situation, both before and after partition. It would not be right for the British government to step back merely because it "gets nothing" out of Northern Ireland.

I know a few people who've had some hairy experiences of late but no one from Ireland should be going up there at the moment. I worry about tourists going up in cars or on buses with Irish registration plates because I heard of a Kerry bus being mobbed and then bricked. Did the rioters even care that many/most of the people on that bus were probably not Irish but foreign tourists?

Thankfully nationalist terrorists have not entered the fray but I worry that if any deaths are caused that they will. That would be a disaster!

Another worry is that it has been reported that children as young as ten have been involved in demonstrations. Indoctrination at its worst - exposing children to mob mentality.

I heard that there'll be another loyalist march in Dublin on Saturday (possibly akin to the 2006 event which ended in a riot) I hope they don't intend or can be persuaded not to hold their march on O'Connell Street again - which is adjacent to the sites of the Dublin bombings of 1974 and also to low income housing and possibly one of the most nationalist areas in the whole of the republic. I have visitors from Australia this weekend. We'll be staying clear of the city!

It's kind of scary that those petrol bombs were found in Louth.

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Last edited by kwilliams; Jan 7th, 2013 at 11:43 PM.
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post #6 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 11:40 PM
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Re: Belfast riots

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I guarantee this would be a bigger story if Nationalists were the ones on the streets. The daily fail would go bat shit crazy.
It's true that in the past loyalist violence has been under-reported in Britain and there have been more violent flareups from unionists before but I'm so surprised that the unrest has been so prolonged. I really thought it would die down after Christmas. It seems to show no sign of abating. I'm glad that I haven't heard any talk of reversing the motion to remove the Union Jack from Belfast City Hall. I'm not sure if I agree with the decision that was made but I'm very glad that these thugs are being shown that they won't get what they want through civil disobedience and aggression...although, they probably care more about enjoying their riots than they do about the raising of the flag.

I really thought N.I. had come a long way.

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post #7 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 11:51 PM
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halardfan View Post
Dreadful behaviour, using whatever excuse for violence and mayhem. Just as both sides have been doing there for decades. Loyalist thugs this time time, Republican thugs that time, cut from the same cloth.

This shows the flaw in your analysis of the "troubles". It's based on the notion that mainland Britain is the source of the problem and that a simple withdrawal would lead to peace in our time in a united Ireland.

The reality is much more grim...we have all long been held hostage by extremists on both sides, mainland Britain gets nothing out of Northern Ireland but trouble but is trapped.
well of course britain is the source of the problem. if you invade a country, use brutal methods to keep hold of it, eventually split it in two and back up a system which reduces catholics to 2nd class citizens, you can't turn round and moan about how any trouble that has resulted following that wasn't down to you in the first place.

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post #8 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 7th, 2013, 11:56 PM
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Re: Belfast riots

When the nationalists lost a vote regarding making Irish have a similar status to Scots Gaelic and Welsh the nationalists didn't riot in the streets. They took it as the democratic process.

If the Orange Order was set up nowadays in Scotland, Wales or England it would be considered a "hate group" under no circumstances do I believe that a unionist march should be permitted in O'Connell St. They are basically an organisation who are designed to hate Catholics.

I find the fact that its more likely Scotland will be an independent state this century than Ireland is united quite sad actually. Although London's imperialists will break their neck to stop the former happening as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR* View Post
(Maybe Dublin can send in Irish troops to help restore the peace)
When Irish citizens were being killed on a regular basis by security forces up their the government didn't even have the nerve to do anything through the ICJ, UN, EU or any other institution.

Dublin/Monaghan bombings were essentially an act of war if collusion was present yet the Irish government didn't bother doing anything about that either.

Every Irish government since the foundation of the state to the present day is weak in all regards, look at their handling of the EU/IMF Another case of rolling over so some Imperialist (in this case Germany) can screw you over.

Its pathetic. Its the reason I have so much love for Chavez, Correa, Morales, Fernandez, Lula and the other Latin American leftists, they actually have a backbone and stand up for global injustice.

I mean come 2016 the Rising commemorations will be underplayed if anything. Most countries would make a massive deal out of such an event but here I will be surprised if the centenary is actually substantially celebrated.

Last edited by KournikovaFan91; Jan 8th, 2013 at 12:12 AM.
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post #9 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 2013, 12:17 AM
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
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well of course britain is the source of the problem. if you invade a country, use brutal methods to keep hold of it, eventually split it in two and back up a system which reduces catholics to 2nd class citizens, you can't turn round and moan about how any trouble that has resulted following that wasn't down to you in the first place.
Who is this 'you' to whom you refer?

Now is what matters...who is the main problem now?

a) The British government

or

b) Extremists on both sides

Since Tony Blair came to power the British government has been a force for peace in Northern Ireland. It's an element of the people of Northern Ireland that today are the problem.

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post #10 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 2013, 12:24 AM
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Re: Belfast riots

Focusing solely on "now" is what right wingers use to whitewash past events. In New Zealand when Maoris are returned land that was stolen from them (thanks imperialism for that too) the right always claim that today the situation is different and that they shouldn't receive land back because the land has been in the possession of the government or private white owners for so long.
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post #11 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 2013, 12:44 AM
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Re: Belfast riots

Quote:
Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Focusing solely on "now" is what right wingers use to whitewash past events. In New Zealand when Maoris are returned land that was stolen from them (thanks imperialism for that too) the right always claim that today the situation is different and that they shouldn't receive land back because the land has been in the possession of the government or private white owners for so long.
Focusing on the past as the streets burn is more destructive. Focusing on the past is Northern Ireland's great and towering problem.

Each sides with its dates, it's commemoration of this or that, rubbing the other sides noses in it. If there is a place that needs less history then it's Northern Ireland.

My position is even handed, I do not side with the Loyalist's and their grotesque twisted view of what it means to British. But I have equal contempt for the Republicans.

You said if these were Republican riots the position of some in the media would be different. Doubtless that's true.

But likewise the position of some on this board would be different too.

But my position is the same...I condemn the Loyalist rioters as I have condemned the Republican one's.

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post #12 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 2013, 01:15 AM
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Re: Belfast riots

Sadly, my solution for most crises (i.e. the Middle East and the Balkans)--restoration of the Sublime Porte--does not apply in this case.

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post #13 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 2013, 01:18 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Belfast riots

Forget Sinn Fein, somebody shot @ the house of an SDLP Councillor:

SDLP councillor avoids injury as shots fired at family home

Monday, January 07, 2013

An SDLP councillor, her husband and infant daughter were lucky to avoid injury last night after seven shots were fired at their home.

By Noel Baker and Fiachra Ó Cionnaith

The Police Service of Northern Ireland has confirmed the incident involving East Belfast nationalist politician Claire Hanna took place yesterday amid ongoing violence over the non-flying of the Union flag at Belfast City Hall. Ms Hanna said the shots, which struck her front door and windows, were fired from a high-powered ball-bearing gun, and could have been fatal.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...e-218817.html#

BTW, the 32 County Sovereignty Movement has 2B quite happy with the UDF - UVF idiots pissing off so many ppl.

Excerpt:

There is political violence in Ireland, not because a particular flag is flown at certain times, but because the wrong flag is flown at all. There is political violence in Ireland because the so called peace process failed to address this core issue of national sovereignty.

Restricting the flying of the Union flag in no way restricts what it represents; British claims to sovereignty over part of Ireland. That is what the Good Friday Agreement secured.

To resolve the conflict in Ireland we must address the question of sovereignty. This cannot happen in Stormont because the issue is beyond its remit.

The democratic deficit inherent in partition can only be rectified with the ending of partition. Hiding behind spurious votes to sanitise British occupation, and Free State indifference, merely perpetuates the conflict.

Agreement amongst the people of Ireland as to how we should govern ourselves is a matter for ourselves alone.

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post #14 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 2013, 01:42 AM
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Re: Belfast riots

Surprised the thread hasn't been made before now. It's just ridiculous really, most people I talked too didn't even have an idea that it was flying every day.
It's really just any excuse for a riot. I don't know why they can't just fly both flags although there would be scandal about that too.

Also, I don't understand why the politicians felt the need to publicise it as if it was some great leap forward. It isn't. It should have just been done after it was democratically voted for, I doubt many people would even have noticed.

Also, 100% about it being more publicized if it were the catholics out on the street. Also some of the Unionist opinions are just crazy, did anybody else see the twitter row between one and I think Frankie Boyle? Boyle commented on it and someone bitter told him to stfu and concern himself with his own country, he then replied saying he thought 'it was supposed to be OUR country'.
Illogical messes.

The shame is that really and truly most people (my age anyway) could give less than two fucks. We're just sitting back and laughing at how ridiculous it is. Pointless.

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post #15 of 155 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 2013, 01:45 AM
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Re: Belfast riots

Also the thread is not complete without:


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