77-44, the law passes - marriage equality in New Zealand :) - Page 6 - TennisForum.com
View Poll Results: Should Gay Marriage be legal?
Yes (please explain your thoughts below) 187 87.38%
No, on religious grounds 15 7.01%
No (please explain your thoughts below) 12 5.61%
Voters: 214. You may not vote on this poll

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post #76 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 05:30 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by Onslow View Post
i'm wrong because sarah palin. good reasoning
When did I say anything about right or wrong? I was simply commentating on your ability to completely avoid actually responding to Novichok's points.
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post #77 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 05:35 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
When did I say anything about right or wrong? I was simply commentating on your ability to completely avoid actually responding to Novichok's points.
in what way? i thought i replied point by point.
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post #78 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 05:47 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by Onslow View Post
in what way? i thought i replied point by point.
She brings in studies about gay couples raising children and you respond with a Nobel Peace Prize winner saying she doesn't agree with homosexuality. You think that's responding to her point? Because from where I stand they have nothing to do with each other.
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post #79 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 05:55 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

Ofcourse, why not.

I feel bad for the narrow minded people here that hold on to age old "rules" based on nothing.

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post #80 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 05:55 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

As for some of the LGBT people in here against it, I understand where you're coming from. But on the other hand marriage is not specific to the Christian religion. To say broadly that the institution of marriage has always discriminated against same-sex couples simply isn't correct. And to tie marriage directly to Christianity as so many people do is the utmost in historial revisionism. There have been some societies that have sanctioned same-sex unions, and so many societies that marriage is a completely secular act that has no relationship to religion whatsoever. I don't know if I would ever want to get married (right now it's would be an no); but if some same-sex couples want to (rightly) claim marriage as a secular institution separate from Christianity and get married, I say power to them. While I see the reasoning behind wanting to avoid some of the "normal," heteronormative institutions and practices, there's just no good reason to stop gay couples who want to get married from doing it.
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post #81 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 05:56 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by Onslow View Post
the key difference between marriage and civil union is children and possible adoption. why does the government (or church) give recognition to marriage in the first place? children. i think the government should ensure the right to both biological parents for children. and marriage is the unit where the children are produced. imo, lesbian couple can raise a child as long as biological father has the right to see the child and/or the child has the right to know who is her/his biological father.
If they use a sperm donor, the donor and the lesbian couple both decide if they want an open donation or not (i.e. if they will be allowed to contact the donor in the future). Some donors don't want to be contacted.

Also, the sperm donor is not a "parent." He's a sperm donor. He has no claim to the child any more than a birth mother has to a baby that she gives up for adoption.

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Last edited by égalité; Jul 26th, 2012 at 06:03 PM.
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post #82 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 05:58 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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look at divorce rates and which way child support money is flowing... so it's not one or the other.
Child support money flows that direction because children usually LIVE WITH THEIR MOTHERS, not because the fathers make more. If the child primarily lives with the father, then the mother will have to pay child support.

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post #83 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:09 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by Le Dauphin View Post
No, I do not support gay marriage. Marriage is traditionally a religious ceremony and religion has traditionally vilified and condemned homosexuality for thousands of years. Therefore, I do not see why a gay person would want to embrace something that says they are wrong and describes their being as a 'choice' and a 'lifestyle'. In my opinion; when gay people want to (and campaign to) marry they live up to the tragically queer attention seeking stereotypes. It's not for their love of someone, but so that they can do it simply because they choose to and declare what they view as being 'equal'. They feel that this is the ultimate in level pegging with heterosexuals. In essence, marriage to me is not the ultimate commitment. It's the ultimate insecurity. People feel secure in the fact that once they put a ring on someone's finger and sign a few contracts they're technically less likely to go astray. If you need a ring on your finger and one on your partners finger to trust your partner and to prove your love for each other, then that's pretty tragic and backs up my thoughts on it being all for show. As a gay male, I have no intention of ever getting married. Nor do I ever see myself craving a ring on my finger to prove and show the world how much I love someone. I most certainly do not crave the acceptance of the people who told me I was wrong for being born the way I was either. Gay men and women should take the moral high ground and reject marriage in my opinion, but alas, we humans are fickle creatures and forget much too easily. Yes, I am aware of the legal benefits also, but I personally much prefer being an individual as opposed to one half of a partnership. I could write tonnes more on the subject, but I am very tired. Maybe I will another time .
Other than the condemnation of their sexuality, heterosexual people can say all those same things. So, it still comes down to equality, the equal right to freedoms to be acceptance by it or reject it.

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post #84 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:27 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by Onslow View Post
the key difference between marriage and civil union is children and possible adoption.
That may be the key difference in your country, but in the United States, there are large difference in tax law, immigration law, inheritance law, etc. that give married people profound rights that people getting civil unions do not have. The most profound effect for me personally would be immigration law. I tend to date foreign guys.

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Only heterosexual couples like Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger can have and look after the mental and physical well-being of their children.
*death* I loved your whole post. Fierce.

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Originally Posted by Miching~Mallecho View Post
Marriage is a generally ridiculous Christian institution (in modern times). Why should gays have to suffer too? There are other ways to obtain equal rights anyway.
I understand your sentiment, and I have a lot of issues with marriage personally. But if other gay couples do want it, I advocate for their personal freedom to be allowed to do what makes them happy, even though, yes, to me, it sounds like suffering.

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Originally Posted by Le Dauphin View Post
Marriage is traditionally a religious ceremony and religion has traditionally vilified and condemned homosexuality for thousands of years. Therefore, I do not see why a gay person would want to embrace something that says they are wrong.
Non-religious people get married all the time. Their marriage doesn't need to be defined by a religion they don't believe in. Religion also said divorce, remarriage, and interracial marriage was sinful for centuries. That doesn't mean that modern couples need to think about that when marrying.

Imagine you were in a long-term gay relationship. You've been together 20 years. You get cancer and have 5 months to live. Imagine your financially struggling partner needing to pay lots of inheritance or estate taxes. Or the possibility that your hateful relatives contest the will. Or your partner being unable to inherit your benefits or pension. Some people don't view marriage as a religious ceremony about pledging their love to God. Some people view it as a government contract relating to finance, property, taxation, inheritance, immigration status, immunity from testifying against each other in court, etc.

Just because some religious people hijacked "marriage", it doesn't mean you have to define it that way for yourself. Non-Christians the world over also had relationships before white men conquered them, and, for example, there were same-sex marriages in the New World before the Europeans showed up. I don't understand why we have to define marriage by Christianity, which has been around for 2000 years, when people got "married" many thousands of years before that.
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post #85 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:28 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by égalité View Post
Child support money flows that direction because children usually LIVE WITH THEIR MOTHERS, not because the fathers make more. If the child primarily lives with the father, then the mother will have to pay child support.
only in theory, though (very small minority). where is the equality in custody issues?
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post #86 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:38 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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Originally Posted by Le Dauphin View Post
No, I do not support gay marriage. Marriage is traditionally a religious ceremony and religion has traditionally vilified and condemned homosexuality for thousands of years. Therefore, I do not see why a gay person would want to embrace something that says they are wrong and describes their being as a 'choice' and a 'lifestyle'. In my opinion; when gay people want to (and campaign to) marry they live up to the tragically queer attention seeking stereotypes. It's not for their love of someone, but so that they can do it simply because they choose to and declare what they view as being 'equal'. They feel that this is the ultimate in level pegging with heterosexuals. In essence, marriage to me is not the ultimate commitment. It's the ultimate insecurity. People feel secure in the fact that once they put a ring on someone's finger and sign a few contracts they're technically less likely to go astray. If you need a ring on your finger and one on your partners finger to trust your partner and to prove your love for each other, then that's pretty tragic and backs up my thoughts on it being all for show. As a gay male, I have no intention of ever getting married. Nor do I ever see myself craving a ring on my finger to prove and show the world how much I love someone. I most certainly do not crave the acceptance of the people who told me I was wrong for being born the way I was either. Gay men and women should take the moral high ground and reject marriage in my opinion, but alas, we humans are fickle creatures and forget much too easily. Yes, I am aware of the legal benefits also, but I personally much prefer being an individual as opposed to one half of a partnership. I could write tonnes more on the subject, but I am very tired. Maybe I will another time .
Gay people want and deserve equal rights. That's why we want gay marriage.

A charitable reading of your argument is basically:

1. Marriage is traditionally religious.
2. Religion has traditionally vilified and condemned homosexuality.
3. We shouldn't embrace things that traditionally vilify us.
Therefore, gay people shouldn't embrace something that says that they are wrong and that their being is a "choice."

There is a fatal flaw with this argument. The third premise is incorrect. Black people up until at least the mid-19th century were traditionally viewed as being less than human. Should they have not embraced their right to be treated equally as whites? That seems obviously absurd.

Also, the marriage that gay people are advocating for isn't religious. It is secular. And secular ideals have not traditionally been used to vilify and condemn homosexuality.
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post #87 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:39 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

Onslow, you are embarrassing me for 823979837274298 time. Please, stop!

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post #88 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:41 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

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only in theory, though (very small minority). where is the equality in custody issues?
No that is not true only in theory. There are cases where women need to pay child support.

I don't know where the equality is in custody issues and I also don't know why child custody issues are pertinent to a discussion about gay marriage.
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post #89 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:43 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

God. You as a gay person can be against marriage, but you seriously need to step back and look at your reasons if you're seriously buying into the idea that marriage is traditionally a religious/Christian ceremony. There are so many instances of it being secular and/or non-Christian. There may be actually valid arguments against gay marriage, but I assure you this is not one of them.

To add to this, it amounts to Eurocentrism to approach marriage as solely a religious and Christian institution. So many other cultures has never approached marriage in that same way.
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post #90 of 393 (permalink) Old Jul 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM
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Re: Do you support Gay Marriage?

Yes, cause love needs to be celebrated.
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