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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...nd-of-comments

Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses
A 'gay therapy' campaign to appear in London is aimed at changing the sexual orientation of homosexual people

London buses have been booked to carry a Christian advertising campaign expected to start next week, which asserts the power of therapy to change the sexual orientation of gay people.

The full length advert, which will appear on five different routes in the capital, is backed by the Core Issues Trust whose leader, Mike Davies, believes "homoerotic behaviour is sinful". His charity funds "reparative therapy" for gay Christians who believe that they have homosexual feelings but want to become straight. The campaign is also backed by Anglican Mainstream, an worldwide orthodox Anglican group whose supporters have equated homosexuality with alcoholism.

The advert will say: "Not gay! Post-gay, ex-gay and proud. Get over it!". Post-gay and ex-gay are terms used by Christians and some psychotherapists and psychiatrists to refer to homosexual people who have undergone spiritual or pastoral therapy and, according to an Anglican Mainstream definition, have "now left a homosexual lifestyle [and experienced] an increased emotional and sexual attraction to the opposite biological gender and possibly a reduction in or loss of same-sex attraction."

The buses are due to roll out on Monday morning on some of the most popular routes. They will be seen for two weeks travelling past St Paul's Cathedral, down Oxford Street, round Trafalgar Square and through Piccadilly Circus as well as across other parts of the capital.

The campaign is an explicit attempt to hit back at gay rights group Stonewall, which ran its own bus advert saying: "Some people are gay. Get over it". The Christian groups have used the same black, red and white colour scheme as Stonewall and accuses it of promoting the "false idea that there is indisputable scientific evidence that people are born gay".

The Rev Lynda Rose, a spokesperson for the UK branch of Anglican Mainstream said because her group adheres to scripture that all fornication outside marriage is prohibited, it believes that homosexuals are "not being fully the people God intended us to be".

It has sparked a angry response from gay rights campaigners.

The former Europe minister and gay ex-vicar, Chris Bryant MP, said the advert was cruel, particularly to teenagers struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, for promoting the idea that you could become "ex-gay".

"The emotional damage that is done to the individuals who try to suppress their sexuality, the women they marry and the children they might have is immeasurable," he said. "Most sane Christians believe that homosexuality is not a lifestyle or a choice but is a fact to be discovered or not. The pretence that homosexuality is something you can be weaned off in some way is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of creation."

Ben Summerskill, the chief executive of Stonewall, said the adverts were "clearly homophobic" and "the only reason some gay people might want to stop being gay is because of the prejudice of the people who are publishing the ad".

"The promotion of this voodoo therapy is hugely irresponsible given the damage that it appears to do to some people," he said.

Attempts to "treat" or alter sexual orientation have been strongly condemned by leading medical organisations. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has warned that "so-called treatments of homosexuality create a setting in which prejudice and discrimination flourish" and concluded in 2010 that "there is no sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed". The British Medical Association has also attacked "conversion therapy", a related field to reparation therapy, passing a motion asserting that it is "discredited and harmful to those 'treated'".

Rose said therapies endorsed by Anglican Mainstream and Core Issues were not coercive and stressed that they are appropriate for people who want to change their sexual attractions, for example if they are married and are worried about the impact of a gay lifestyle on their children.

"Reparative therapy works to help men, who want to, change their sexual orientation, naturally dissipate their homoerotic feelings and maximise their heterosexual potential," she said.

In a statement, Anglican Mainstream and Core Issues said Stonewall's slogan is "merely another attempt to close down the critical debate about being gay, and marriage 'equality'". They accused Stonewall of "riding roughshod over individuals" who choose to "move out of homosexuality".

They statement continued: "Both organisations recognise the rights of individuals to identify as gay, and to live according to their own values. But by the same token, they believe individuals such as married men and women unhappy with their homosexuality should be supported in developing their heterosexual potential where this is the appropriate life choice for them ... Current scientific research says there is no gay gene and that sexuality is far more fluid than has hitherto been thought."

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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 05:10 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

The company that owns the buses very easily could have said, "We don't believe in your message, and we don't want your money," but they didn't. If someone can find a better definition of tolerance, please post it here.

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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 05:13 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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The company that owns the buses very easily could have said, "We don't believe in your message, and we don't want your money," but they didn't. If someone can find a better definition of tolerance, please post it here.
Being tolerant of intolerance is a paradox.
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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 05:18 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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Being tolerant of intolerance is a paradox.
How is Core Issues Trust's message intolerant? If a person can live the first few years of their lives as straight and then discover that they're gay, then why can't the reverse be true?

"He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor from the Lord." -- Proverbs 18:22

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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 05:22 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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If a person can live the first few years of their lives as straight
Huh? what are you talking about?
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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 06:00 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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If a person can live the first few years of their lives as straight and then discover that they're gay, then why can't the reverse be true?
I'm assuming you're just trolling as usual, but in the unfortunate possibility that you're serious, people who are gay and were straight were never most likely never straight in the first place. Just because some confused Sex in the City actress claims she woke up one day as a lesbian doesn't mean it's a scientific fact.

There is no rigorous scientific evidence showing that therapy can change the sexual orientation. Until such evidence is presented, such therapy has to be considered as harmful. Accepting to advertize a harmful product or service is hardly responsible and ethical. Being tolerant of bullshit is entirely meaningless, so whatever point you had in mind is meaningless, too.
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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:03 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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I'm assuming you're just trolling as usual, but in the unfortunate possibility that you're serious, people who are gay and were straight were never most likely never straight in the first place. Just because some confused Sex in the City actress claims she woke up one day as a lesbian doesn't mean it's a scientific fact.

There is no rigorous scientific evidence showing that therapy can change the sexual orientation. Until such evidence is presented, such therapy has to be considered as harmful. Accepting to advertize a harmful product or service is hardly responsible and ethical. Being tolerant of bullshit is entirely meaningless, so whatever point you had in mind is meaningless, too.
If Billie Jean King was never straight to begin with, then why can't Cynthia Nixon never have been gay to begin with?

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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:08 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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If Billie Jean King was never straight to begin with, then why can't Cynthia Nixon never have been gay to begin with?
Because she's gay now. If you try to become sexually attracted to males (I'm supposing you're a straight male) could you do it? Sexuality is not something you can play with and change like the clothes you're wearing.
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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:31 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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Being tolerant of intolerance is a paradox.
What about being intolerant of intolerance?

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:34 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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What about being intolerant of intolerance?
That's a good thing
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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:37 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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If Billie Jean King was never straight to begin with, then why can't Cynthia Nixon never have been gay to begin with?
How about you clearly express whatever point you have in mind and we work from there.

You think people can change their sexual orientation with therapy? Or without? Or both? Is your belief based on anecdotes? Rigorous scientific studies? Religious dogmas?
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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:39 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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That's a good thing
So people who are intolerant of... say, religion should be condemned?

For Dante, it follows then, that the only way to get into Hell is to insist upon it. One must deliberately exclude himself from grace by hardening his heart against it. Hell is what the damned have actively and insistently wished for.

The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils. The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus. Let no such man be trusted. Shakespeare
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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:41 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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So people who are intolerant of... say, religion should be condemned?
Why?
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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:41 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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So people who are intolerant of... say, religion should be condemned?
Yes, I would condemn anyone who put up posters in a public place offering counselling to Christians to become "ex-Christians"
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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 2012, 07:47 PM
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Re: Christian group books anti-gay ads to appear on buses

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Yes, I would condemn anyone who put up posters in a public place offering counselling to Christians to become "ex-Christians"
I might be wrong, but I don't think there is any study showing that trying to convince people to quit being Christian is harmful for those people. In fact, it seems to me there are tons of testimonies of people who've become happier after leaving Christianity. So I don't see anything unethical with that. People might disagree with doing that but that's another issue.

As opposed to therapy to change sexual orientation which has been denounced as harmful by numerous competant medical authorities.
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