Turkey, European or not? - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Turkey, European or not?

The president of the European Reform Commission and former president of France, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, has said that if Turkey would join the EU it would mean the end of the union. Because Turkey is not a European country, only a small part of its area is in Europe and over 90% of its population lives on the Asian part.

So does that make Turkey NOT European or was he mistaken by saying this?
Should Turkey join the EU, why or why not?
And of course how do the Turks think about this? Do they see themselves as European or Asian?
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post #2 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:11 AM
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they must be European, after all, they're in the Eurovision song contest! hang on, we're in that too! OMG, we're Europeans .

lol, I can't speak for Turkey, but we're kind of in the same situation here- not belonging clearly to any continent. we consider ourselves non-continental. a country with a continent.
no, seriously, obviously there will be great advantages for Turkey (and a price to pay along with them) if they join the EU. but in all honesty, I understand people who say they're not European. they just aren't. I'm not saying they shouldn't be considered for EU membership, maybe the advantages in Turkey joining the EU should bring both sides to ignore the lack of European-ness, and go on, but I just can't see how Turkey is truely "European".

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post #3 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:15 AM
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Turkey is more European than Israel anyway, but really European? Nah. A small part of Turkey is European, so they could become a member of the EU, but I don't consider them a European country.


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post #4 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:21 AM
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ok, you realize I wasn't seriously saying we're European, right ? and btw, we have the second highest high tech income per pesron in the world after Finland (Nokia. what one company can do to a country), so you could do a lot worse than us (what are you considering now? Cyprus? Romania? pfff). but we're not trying to join the EU. (even though what's his face Solana tried to suggest last time he was in Israel that if we accpet European involvement in the peace process, and a settlement is reached, Israel will become a top contendant to join the EU.)

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post #5 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:23 AM
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lol kick Israel out of Eurovision! I think that Israel is definately Asia, Turkey should be considered as Asia as well.

Russia is the only country I consider to be bi-continental
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post #6 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:26 AM
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chill, i-girl, I know you were not stating you were European. I am stating you are not. You should not join the Eurovision songcontest or the European Championships in every sport. But that's my opinion. I also see the difficulties in you joining the Asian competitions, but does that mean you are European? No.

Turkey and Russia are both bi-continental.

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post #7 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:27 AM
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if you kicked us out of Eurovision, you will have no drag queens singing "diva" songs, and winning first prize (go Dana, go Dana ). you will only be punishing yourselves .

we are not Asian. we are not European. from now on when asked, say "Israel is non-continental". if I must choose, I say we're african. Eilat is kinda in Africa .

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post #8 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:28 AM
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Israel won Eurovision? So everyone is going there next year?
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post #9 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
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Well maybe we should also look at the historical ties between Turkey (or what is now Turkey) and the European continent. The country has been home to some major European civilisations like the Greeks, the Romans, the Byzantines. When the Ottomans came much of that European "influence" was incorporated in a way. And in 1923, when Turkey became what it is today, Atatürk reformed the country towards European model.
Also many millions of Turks live in the EU today as a result of immigration in the 50s and 60s. So I would say hat there definitely are reasons to consider Turkey "European".

About Israel, I wouldn't say Turkey is more European than Israel. After all many Israelis (maybe even the majority??) fled Europe after WWII and settled in Israel. Jews have always been present in Europe and have shaped European history so that makes them also part of Europe even if many made it clear that they are not wanted in Europe (Inquisition, Holocaust, etc...). If you visit cities like Prague, Krakow, Budapest, Vienna,... you can see how much Jews have contributed to European history and wealth.
But of course I can imagine that many Jews don't like to be called "European" after all that has happened to them on this continent.
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post #10 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:30 AM
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Marocco is part of the Eurovision too!!!
the reason why Israel is part of Eurovision and UEFA (Football) is the fact that no arabian country want them

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post #11 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:30 AM
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lol, that was a few years ago, C . you don't remember our Dana ? ok, you must not be European .

Adnil, I'm sorry if Isounded mad, I'm really not.

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post #12 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:30 AM
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so Turks and Russian are bi then


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post #13 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:31 AM
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Well where do you draw the line? Turkey is 90% in Asia. If a country has a hectare in another continent, is it bi-continental too? I'm not sure.
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post #14 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:32 AM
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Personally I am rather for Turkey's admission into the EU.

Why are many people here so reluctant to see Turkey join the Union?
The first reason, I think, is history. The little most Europeans know about Turkey comes from school, and that is about invasions, crusades, etc. So Turkey appears like the oldtime foe.
The second reason, closely related to the first, is religion. People fear that were a Muslim country (and a big one, for that matter) to join the Union, proselytism would spread much faster than it already does.
The third one is the feeling that Turkey is not yet a democratic country, that minorities are not treated fairly, and you can add the idea that Midnight Express does not completely belong to the past and that Turkey remains a heavily militarized country.
The fourth one, especially in France, is the fact that contrary to Germany, present-day Turkey refuses to endorse any part of the Armenian genocide, and actually denies that there ever was such a genocide.

Point 1 belongs to the past IMO.
Point 2 has to be taken into account.
Point 3 is probably much exaggerated.
Point 4, I think, stands to reason, and Turkey should not be so overly proud as to refuse to do what Germany did.

I am not sure that joining the Union would be all benefit for Turkey either. It would be tough especially for the local automobile industry (there is no Turkish automobile company stricto sensu, but most cars running there have been made in the country). Some areas probably are not ready for competition with Western products.

But I still believe that both sides have more to gain than to lose from Turkey's adhesion.

Turkey is not, at least not completely a European country. Last summer, I felt that without criticizing Atatürk's reforms in any way, Turkish people were more eager to speak of their Asian roots. Now, as i-girl said, Turkey, quite like Greece actually, is not entirely Oriental either. It stands between two worlds, and that may not be necessarily a problem. Socially, I really don't think that Turkey is farther from Western European standards than several of the Central & Eastern European countries due to join the Union in less than two years. Neither is it economically. And politically, of course populism seems to meet a lot of success there, but, as a French citizen, I don't feel like teaching lessons on that matter

Most of all, I am very pessimistic about what might happen if the EU retains its reluctant attitude towards Turkey. Turkey has passed a number of laws this summer which, indeed, must now be converted into facts, but still denote a strong political will. I think that Turkey has already proved its determination to solve tough problems in several occasions. We can't act as though they had done nothing, or just trifle. If we keep our doors closed, we will probably be offering millions of votes to extremist parties, and to Muslim fundamentalists, to begin with. Last elections were won by an Islam-based party, but (officially) in favour of turkey's joining the Union. Now, we mustn't carelessly feed the following discourse: "You want to be Westernized - the West doesn't want you. You preach for equality between sexes - it is hardly more than an illusion, and women lose protection while gaining nothing real." Etc.

I might be mistaken, but I frankly believe that having Turkey within the EU is not only more logical, but also safer than leaving it out and letting it (not now, but possibly later) turn into a stronghold of hardliners, and a wall between the West and the (Middle) East.

Well, that's just a small part of my opinion on that matter

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post #15 of 127 (permalink) Old Nov 10th, 2002, 10:32 AM
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So Israel hosted Eurovision? Eurovision being held outside of Europe!
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