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post #1 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

Amanda Knox, US college student appealed her 2009 conviction of killing her British roommate, Meredith Kercher.

The presiding judge ordered two things to be re examined for the appeal and stated at the start that only one thing is for sure here - Meredith lost her life.

Judge Hellmann wanted to
- re examine original DNA tests that were the basis for the conviction
- hear once again a witness that said he saw Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito discussing something in front of the house the night the murdered occured

These are the results.

DNA evidence - the independent experts report (appointed by the judge, not by the defense) said that two crucial pieces of DNA evidence are unreliable and cannot be used. The knife and bra clasp most probably were both contaminated.

The witness - Antonio Curatolo - a homeless man said that for the past 7 years he was using heroine and o nthat night he was, as usual, high. He claimed he saw disco buses and kids in masks that night, apart from seeing Knox and Sollecito. What happened then? The disco's owners came for the defense and said that there were no buses that night. The busese were the night before, it was Halloween - people in masks also. The conclusion was that he confused Halloween with 1st of November. The murder took place on the first night of November 2007, there were no disco buses and people in masks. He was discredited.

Now, that there's n ocase left against the two, the prosecution is desperate to keep them in jail. They're saying how Knox had a vibrator and did not do enough around the flat.

The verdict is on Monday.

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post #2 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 09:28 AM
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

It's so funny to read the Daily mail reader comments on the articles. All the British believe she's guilty and want her put away for life, the Americans the complete opposite.

Even though her behaviour after the discovery was very questionable (instead of attending the memorial, she went lingerie shopping. WTF!) you can't prosecute somebody on that, and there is no actual DNA evidence linking her to the crime scene (correct?), so I can't see how she will not be freed.

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post #3 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

Yes, there is literally nothing that connects Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the room that Meredith Kercher was killed.

On the other hand, the third suspect, Rudy Guede left his shoeprints (made in Meredith's blood) in Meredith's room, he left his DNA on her purse, on her jacket, on her body and inside her body. In the same room there's nothing from Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. There was a break in through a window(that the police say was staged) and guess who was caught few weeks prior to the murder when he broke in to some nursery in Rome? Yes, Rudy Guede. And how did he enter the nursery? Via a window. What the police found in his backpack? A knife.

I believe that Brits(and to some extent Italians) believe she's guilty mostly beacuse the early reports were very damning (and also untrue) for Knox, while in the US the majority of the media coverage was positive and pro innocence.

She went for lingerie shopping beacuse her house, where she actually lived was closed and declared a crime scene. She had nothing to wear, that included lingerie. Sure, she didn't act properly on some occasions but she was the one who stayed and helped the police. Only after a lenghty interrogation, with no translator and no lawyer(they never let her call a lawyer) she crumbled and said that maybe she was in the house and that her boss(that the police were putting so much pressure on )killed her, while she was in the kitchen. She retracted that statement the next morning but the police were already all over her and Sollecito. It was too late.
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

I didn't know that she had nothing to wear.

Rudy Guede's sentence is a complete joke. Should've been life without parole.

I've read about the initial interrogation. Is it true that lengthy = 12 hours, and they gave her no food or water?

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post #5 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

Well, all the housemates were rushed out of the house when the door to Meredith's room was broken down. No one could come in after that. On that night she also bought other things, but obviously only the lingerie shopping made the headlines.

From what I've heard lately, Guede can be freed as soon as 2014/2015 for good behaviour.

Here's a piece about the interrogation. Hopefully you will find it interesting:
Quote:
Amanda Knox was interrogated repeatedly in the five days following the murder of Meredith Kercher. Amanda consistently told the same story over and over again. She repeatedly told the truth.

In the early morning hours of November 6, 2007, the questioning became much more aggressive. Amanda was in a situation that she had absolutely no control of. She was thousands of miles from home, In a country where she had a very limited knowledge of the language. She was confronted by aggressive police officers who were accusing her of a horrible crime that she didn't commit. Amanda was terrified.

Amanda did not have a lawyer present during her interrogation. She was told it would be worse for her if she did. Amanda was told that she was being questioned as a witness but she was clearly being interrogated as a suspect. Italian law is very clear, no suspect is to be interrogated with out the presence of an attorney. The interrogation of Amanda Knox was illegal.

Interrogators are known to use several techniques to manipulate innocent suspects into self-incrimination. Over long periods of time, interrogators play mind games to confuse the suspect. One technique is to ask the suspect to imagine hypothetical scenarios. The interrogators feed the information that they want the suspect to imagine. Over long a long drawn out interrogation, the suspect gets confused and starts trying to comply with the request being made to imagine the scenarios. This is exactly what they did to Amanda Knox.

Physical force was also used on Amanda and she was lied to intentionally to make her believe the police had evidence against her.

Amanda stated in court testimony that she was repeatedly slapped on the back of her head and called a stupid liar. The interrogator who slapped Amanda told her that she was trying to help her to remember. Amanda was told that they had proof that she was at the crime scene at the time of the murder. This was a lie. She was told that she was going to prison for 30 years and she would never see her family again.

Amanda was told that her boss, Patrick Lumumba was the man that attacked Meredith. She did not give Patrick's name to the police. His name was suggested to her.

The police took a text message on Amanda's phone out of context. The text from Amanda to Patrick, "see you later" was taken literally by investigators. In the US, this phrase, in the context that it was written, simply means goodbye. The police told Amanda the text meant that she planned on meeting Patrick on the night of the murder. The police also left out the second part of the message, "good night." When you put the phrase together, it explains the meaning even more clearly. Amanda had no intention of meeting Patrick that night. She was simply saying goodbye to Patrick in the text.

The interrogators told Amanda to imagine she was at the cottage. She was told to imagine that Patrick committed the crime. None of it seemed possible to Amanda. She tried to explain to the police that none of what they were saying made any sense. She knew that she was not at the cottage at the time of the murder. She had repeatedly told the interrogators the truth and now they wanted her to imagine something completely different.

The interrogators kept telling her over and over again to imagine that she was there. When she still could not imagine what they were saying, she was slapped across the back of her head.

Once again she was told to imagine that she was there. She still could not do it. She knew what they were telling her was simply not true. She was scared and confused. After many hours of interrogation, with nothing to drink, exhaustion started kicking in. Amanda was trying to remember, she was trying to help but it just did not seem possible.

Then came another slap across the back of her head! You stupid liar! You were in the cottage! You will spend 30 years in prison! You are protecting a murderer! You will never see your family again! You will imagine that this happened!

This abuse went on for hours until Amanda was finally broken. She was desperate to end the questioning. She was extremely confused and she could not take anymore abuse.

Suffering from extreme exhaustion with no food nor water, after a long and grueling interrogation, twenty year old college student Amanda Knox gave in to the interrogators demands by describing an imaginary dream or vision. In this vision, she was in the kitchen covering her ears to block out screams while the man she worked for, Patrick Lumumba, was in Meredith's bedroom.

This so called confession was typed out by the police. The confession was not written by Amanda Knox. At least 12* members of the police force interrogated Amanda. Why was it necessary for 12 people to interrogate a 20 year old female college student?

Why were so many members of the Italian police force available to assist in an all night interrogation?

Click here to read Steve Moore's professional opinion about Amanda's Interrogation.

In Italy, it is normal police policy to record interrogations. Amanda's interrogation was not recorded. Why wasn't the interrogation recorded?

Click here to read more about coerced false confessions.

The Italian supreme court ruled that the interrogation of Amanda Knox was inadmissible in the trial. The court stated that the interrogation was illegal because Amanda did not have an attorney present. The civil trial was running at the same time as the murder trial so the same jury had the results of the illegal interrogation read to them anyway.

Later in the morning of November 6th, 2007, Amanda hand wrote a letter explaining the interrogation.

Amanda Wrote: "In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make it clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion."

Amanda was very confused and she was scared. This did not seem to matter to the police. Amanda's illegal interrogation gave them the information they wanted.

As soon as they got Amanda to tell them what they wanted to hear, they went out and arrested Patrick Lumumba with no further questions asked. As it turned out, Patrick was innocent.

Amanda's statements about Patrick were completely unreliable. Amanda tired to explain to the police that her statements were made during a time of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion and she didn't believe them to be true. After all, she was only repeating what the Interrogators told her to say. At the time, the police simply didn't care. They arrested Patrick anyway. The police are responsible for Patrick Lumumba's imprisonment, not Amanda Knox.

I have included the full text of her letter below. But first, please listen to Amanda tell the details of her interrogation in her own words.
Keep in mind, The hand written note was written when Amanda was still suffering from extreme exhaustion. She wrote this just hours after her interrogation was completed. Some people have taken this note out of context and tried to say that it was a confession. Amanda in no way confesses to the murder in her note. In fact the note ends with this text.

"If there are still parts that don't make sense, please ask me. I'm doing the best I can, just like you are. Please believe me at least in that, although I understand if you don't. All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith, and so I have nothing but lies to be afraid of."

This doesn't sound like a confession to me. I will let you come to your own conclusion.


Transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested:

This is very strange, I know, but really what happened is as confusing to me as it is to everyone else. I have been told there is hard evidence saying that I was at the place of the murder of my friend when it happened. This, I want to confirm, is something that to me, if asked a few days ago, would be impossible.
I know that Raffaele has placed evidence against me, saying that I was not with him on the night of Meredith's murder, but let me tell you this. In my mind there are things I remember and things that are confused. My account of this story goes as follows, despite the evidence stacked against me:

On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work.

Now I remember to have also replied with the message: "See you later. Have a good evening!" and this for me does not mean that I wanted to meet him immediately. In particular because I said: "Good evening!" What happened after I know does not match up with what Raffaele was saying, but this is what I remember. I told Raffaele that I didn't have to work and that I could remain at home for the evening. After that I believe we relaxed in his room together, perhaps I checked my email. Perhaps I read or studied or perhaps I made love to Raffaele. In fact, I think I did make love with him.

However, I admit that this period of time is rather strange because I am not quite sure. I smoked marijuana with him and I might even have fallen asleep. These things I am not sure about and I know they are important to the case and to help myself, but in reality, I don't think I did much. One thing I do remember is that I took a shower with Raffaele and this might explain how we passed the time. In truth, I do not remember exactly what day it was, but I do remember that we had a shower and we washed ourselves for a long time. He cleaned my ears, he dried and combed my hair.

One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered was that Raffaele and I ate fairly late, I think around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock. After dinner I noticed there was blood on Raffaele's hand, but I was under the impression that it was blood from the fish. After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn't have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home. I remember it was quite late because we were both very tired (though I can't say the time).

The next thing I remember was waking up the morning of Friday November 2nd around 10am and I took a plastic bag to take back my dirty cloths to go back to my house. It was then that I arrived home alone that I found the door to my house was wide open and this all began. In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly. I understand that the police are under a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I received.

However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked.

But the truth is, I am unsure about the truth and here's why:

1. The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.

2. My boyfriend has claimed that I have said things that I know are not true. I KNOW I told him I didn't have to work that night. I remember that moment very clearly. I also NEVER asked him to lie for me. This is absolutely a lie. What I don't understand is why Raffaele, who has always been so caring and gentle with me, would lie about this. What does he have to hide? I don't think he killed Meredith, but I do think he is scared, like me. He walked into a situation that he has never had to be in, and perhaps he is trying to find a way out by disassociating himself with me.

Honestly, I understand because this is a very scary situation. I also know that the police don't believe things of me that I know I can explain, such as:

1. I know the police are confused as to why it took me so long to call someone after I found the door to my house open and blood in the bathroom. The truth is, I wasn't sure what to think, but I definitely didn't think the worst, that someone was murdered. I thought a lot of things, mainly that perhaps someone got hurt and left quickly to take care of it. I also thought that maybe one of my roommates was having menstral [sic] problems and hadn't cleaned up. Perhaps I was in shock, but at the time I didn't know what to think and that's the truth. That is why I talked to Raffaele about it in the morning, because I was worried and wanted advice.

2. I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.

3. I'm very confused at this time. My head is full of contrasting ideas and I know I can be frustrating to work with for this reason. But I also want to tell the truth as best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think.

[illegible section]

I'm trying, I really am, because I'm scared for myself. I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure. In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer, but the way the truth feels in my mind, there is no way for me to have known because I don't remember FOR SURE if I was at my house that night. The questions that need answering, at least for how I'm thinking are:

1. Why did Raffaele lie? (or for you) Did Raffaele lie?
2. Why did I think of Patrik?
3. Is the evidence proving my pressance [sic] at the time and place of the crime reliable? If so, what does this say about my memory? Is it reliable?
4. Is there any other evidence condemning Patrik or any other person?
3. Who is the REAL murder [sic]? This is particularly important because I don't feel I can be used as condemning testimone [sic] in this instance.

I have a clearer mind that I've had before, but I'm still missing parts, which I know is bad for me. But this is the truth and this is what I'm thinking at this time. Please don't yell at me because it only makes me more confused, which doesn't help anyone. I understand how serious this situation is, and as such, I want to give you this information as soon and as clearly as possible.

If there are still parts that don't make sense, please ask me. I'm doing the best I can, just like you are. Please believe me at least in that, although I understand if you don't. All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith, and so I have nothing but lies to be afraid of.

End of Amanda's note.


Just to clarify, Amanda is asking herself the questions about Raffaele because she was told by the interrogators that Raffaele stopped covering for her. This simply wasn't true. Raffaele was told by his interrogators that it would be impossible for him to say for sure what Amanda was doing when he was asleep. He agreed with that fact. When he was sleeping, he couldn't say without a doubt, what Amanda was doing. The prosecutors used this information and twisted it to make Amanda believe that Raffaele had turned on her. As you can see from Amanda's note, she doesn't really believe it herself. She wrote "Did Raffaele lie?"

Amanda Knox was interrogated illegally. The interrogation should have never been heard by the jury.
And here's even more interesting YouTube clip, where Amanda says herself what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_qai...layer_embedded
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post #6 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 04:48 PM
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

Quote:
Originally Posted by donniedarkofan View Post
Well, all the housemates were rushed out of the house when the door to Meredith's room was broken down. No one could come in after that. On that night she also bought other things, but obviously only the lingerie shopping made the headlines.

From what I've heard lately, Guede can be freed as soon as 2014/2015 for good behaviour.
Here's a piece about the interrogation. Hopefully you will find it interesting:


And here's even more interesting YouTube clip, where Amanda says herself what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_qai...layer_embedded

Oh Lord

Thanks for the article. Interesting read. If it reallu happened like that the interrogators are truly disgusting.

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post #7 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 04:58 PM
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

I read an interview with a Priest who was counselling Amanda and he painted a very poor picture of her - claimed she was manipulative etc. But all of these accounts are now so undermined by how Knox was treated she will no doubt be freed, sell her story and make a mint. a nice movie deal will also no doubt come her way.

Whatever happens, this is proof of what comes from bad legal practices and bad police work - the victim doesn't get justice.

If innocent then Knox is a victim too, but Meredith is dead, slaughtered in the most horrific way. Imagine trying to fight for your life as Meredith did. And her family have a life sentence of pain an injustice.

It breaks my heart and hope no one I know ever has to go through a similar ordeal.
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post #8 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 05:01 PM
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

as a lawyer myself, i never make any judgements based on media reports, blogs, etc. i have absolutely no idea whether she is guilty or innocent. the only thing that i am sure of is that it was entirely classless for a movie to be made about the whole thing, especially when it is unresolved.

there seems to be certain dodgy things about the conviction, however, the fact that knox is a white american has played in her favour. the conviction of lockerbie bomber al megrahi had more holes in it and was "dodgier" than this, but i didnt see a massive american outcry against that conviction...

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post #9 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 2011, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

Yeah, Guede really got away with it.

As to the police and prosecutors.

The independent experts report that was presented in the court in July 2011 showed that there were 54 mistakes made by the police during the collecting of evidence.

As to the interrogation - there are no tapes of that particular interrogation. However, the law in Italy says that every interrogation of a suspect, should be recorded. Supporters of Amanda and Raffaele say that the police destroyed the tapes, beacuse they didn't want anyone to know what went down that night at the questura. The police claims they didn't record it due to having low budget.

Also, amazingly, the police destroyed three laptops that belonged to Amanda, Meredith and Raffaele. Amanda said that on her laptop there were pictures of her and Meredith that showed how close they were. The cops said there was somethign with the energy and hard disks from three laptops were destroyed and no data could be saved.

I could go on and on, but most probably, you're bored.
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post #10 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 2011, 08:28 AM
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

I said it before the first trial started that there's not enough evidence to say she's guilty 'without reasonable doubt'. I would have acquitted her first time around. The motive also seems way too far fetched.

And I can't help but feel there's also an element of "you Americans don't have to tell us how to perform an investigation" stubbornness.

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post #11 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 2011, 08:54 AM
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

Quote:
Originally Posted by donniedarkofan View Post
Here's a piece about the interrogation. Hopefully you will find it interesting:
I was once robbed and then interrogated by the police. Before the interrogation, I was absolutely certain the car the robbers were driving was a gray Peugeot 207. But after the interrogation, I wasn't so sure anymore. They way they ask, "are you absolutely certain? " "How do you know it was a peugeot 207?" And I was the victim here.

So I can only imagine how it must have been for Amanda, 12 hours of interrogation, with police constantly questioning what you're saying. Soon you don't know anything anymore, haven't clue what's real and what isn't.

Also, I remember a TV documentary showing you can implant false memories. People were shown a picture of them as a child in a hot air balloon (photoshopped) and were asked what they remember of this event. After a while, about 50% started having clear memories of the hot air balloon ride, could even remember some details, etc....even though it never happened. But the picture showed that it must have happened so after some serious thought, the fake memories started flowing in.
The interrogators told Amanda they had evidence she was at the crime scene and forced her to think on it. I find it entirely plausible that false memories started flowing in.

http://www.examiner.com/cognitive-sc...false-memories

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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

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The motive also seems way too far fetched.
Motive is irrelevant in Italy and the US also.

Lets not fool ourselves if she wasn't female, white and middle class the American media wouldn't give a shit about her being imprisoned in Italy.

She's innocent but Casey Anthony was automatically guilty. Strange how the media works, Knox's behaviour was definatly stranger than Anthony's ever was, I mean Casey wasn't cartwheeling around a police station.

I think this is the one issue I agree with Ann Coulter on, also Lisa Bloom has said the evidence to convict Knox would have been enough in the US as well even though she doesn't think there was enough evidence.
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

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Motive is irrelevant in Italy and the US also.

Lets not fool ourselves if she wasn't female, white and middle class the American media wouldn't give a shit about her being imprisoned in Italy.

She's innocent but Casey Anthony was automatically guilty. Strange how the media works, Knox's behaviour was definatly stranger than Anthony's ever was, I mean Casey wasn't cartwheeling around a police station.

I think this is the one issue I agree with Ann Coulter on, also Lisa Bloom has said the evidence to convict Knox would have been enough in the US as well even though she doesn't think there was enough evidence.
I'd say there was far more evidence against Casey than against Amanda Knox.

We all have different ways of dealing with stress. I don't see how cartwheeling is a sign of guilt. Cartwheeling after killing someone seems just as weird as cartwheeling when you're innocent.

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post #14 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 2011, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

Quote:
Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Motive is irrelevant in Italy and the US also.

Lets not fool ourselves if she wasn't female, white and middle class the American media wouldn't give a shit about her being imprisoned in Italy.

She's innocent but Casey Anthony was automatically guilty. Strange how the media works, Knox's behaviour was definatly stranger than Anthony's ever was, I mean Casey wasn't cartwheeling around a police station.

I think this is the one issue I agree with Ann Coulter on, also Lisa Bloom has said the evidence to convict Knox would have been enough in the US as well even though she doesn't think there was enough evidence.
I'm not sure if that's true what you've said about her. To have a girl convicted for a murder with no evidence is rather shocking, no matter who you are, how you look like and how much money you've got. Sure, her good looks, as described by some people, helped to get the attention, but I would say that lack of evidence and further conviction were much more attention grabbing.


Anthony, when compared to Amanda, is guilty as hell. There's literally nothing that ties Amanda Knox to the murder. She was caught saying weird things, she turned cartwheels in the police station, she went for pizza when her flatmate was just one day earlier killed, she liked sex, she had a vibrator, she didn't do much around the flat, she was noisy and played guitar all the time. Plus, there is some mixed DNA evidence, such as - in the bathroom that the two shared for 7 weeks police found Meredith's blood mixed with Knox's DNA. It was their bathroom for god's sake. There's nothing else.
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post #15 of 443 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 2011, 09:13 PM
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Re: Amanda Knox's Appeal verdict on Monday

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Originally Posted by gentenaire View Post
The motive also seems way too far fetched.

And I can't help but feel there's also an element of "you Americans don't have to tell us how to perform an investigation" stubbornness.
I disagree completely on the issue ofmmotive. She was on drugs and is a weirdo.

And there is definitely a huge element she's American somehow date they find her guilty and put her in jaill.
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