The reaction to "slurs" - TennisForum.com

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
country flag pov
Senior Member
 
pov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 25,804
                     
The reaction to "slurs"

Kobe Bryant is the latest in a long line of people who have been told in firm terms that the thought police doesn't accept their choice of words. The idea that certain words are a - "bad" and b - always an indication that the user is anti something or the other are delusions that have a strong footing. It's as if the thought police and its supporters ignore that words in anger are meant to cause a reaction. A reaction that is the choice of the hearer not the one saying the word. I have used words that are considered slurs - across the board. I've run the table on it. And I'm okay with that. I've also had all sort of slurs thrown at me. And I'm okay with that too. Because really the only times those slurs have bothered me are the times in which I wasn't feeling good about myself in the first place.

People who consider themselves "marginalized" or discriminated against and continue to make themselves feel bad about what others think/say about them are perpetuating their own sense of less than. The outcomes of this PC nonsense are that people continue to make themselves beholding to others and that there will be no way to let out a moment of anger. Not letting people verbally blow of steam simply means that they internalize that moment of anger and are more likely to really build a feeling of anti- something or the other.

Mulder: "So you're agreeing with me?"
Scully "No! You're bat-crap crazy."


Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
pov is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 02:46 PM
Senior Member
 
Super Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 35,602
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

I agree. The way I am, I need to get anger out in short bursts. I cannot keep it inside; I would spontaneously combust.

And I don't think Kobe should be crucified for what he did. Just because he used those words doesn't mean he hates certain groups of people. Right or wrong, men sometimes use that language in the heat of the moment and there is no deep meaning to it - it's an impulse reaction. It's playground trash talk. Hell, I've mouthed (i.e. under my breath) those words at my son's opposing Little League coach when he cheats. It may not be pretty but as pov said, it does not mean there is a hatred toward any group involved.

That may not be a nice answer, and it may not make total sense, but it's real at least.
Super Dave is offline  
post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 02:52 PM
Senior Bitch.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wanderstruck
Posts: 10,730
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

What exactly did Kobe say? Oh, and I'll have more to add to this tomorrow morning but not tonight. Been a long, exhausting day and I want to think carefully about how I want to respond to the initial post. I do know I don't necessarily agree with certain points raised.
ampers& is offline  
post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 02:58 PM
Senior Member
 
Super Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 35,602
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miching~Mallecho View Post
What exactly did Kobe say? Oh, and I'll have more to add to this tomorrow morning but not tonight. Been a long exhausting day and I want to think carefully about how I want to respond to the initial post.
He stormed over to the bench after a technical foul and yelled the ref's name then said "F***ing f*ggot". Again, it's playground trash talk; younger guys throw that word around all the time ("fag") even when kidding around with friends. I can see how those in the gay community would be offended at the term, but as hard as it may be to understand, nothing anti-gay is meant by it. Trust me. Doesn't make it the most pleasant thing to do, but the intent behind it is not hateful.
Super Dave is offline  
post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Super Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 35,602
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

And I must say, though I have used that term in the past, it's not a habit. At all. I'm much more likely to use regular ol' 4- and 5- letter curse words when really angry. (Though those also are almost never heard by anyone. I'm good and turning my head and grumbling them under my breath)
Super Dave is offline  
post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Drake1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 49,390
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Is the ref actually gay?

SERENA WILLIAMS
Drake1980 is offline  
post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Super Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 35,602
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1980 View Post
Is the ref actually gay?
No, I don't think so.
Super Dave is offline  
post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:25 PM
Senior Bitch.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wanderstruck
Posts: 10,730
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Robertson View Post
He stormed over to the bench after a technical foul and yelled the ref's name then said "F***ing f*ggot". Again, it's playground trash talk; younger guys throw that word around all the time ("fag") even when kidding around with friends. I can see how those in the gay community would be offended at the term, but as hard as it may be to understand, nothing anti-gay is meant by it. Trust me. Doesn't make it the most pleasant thing to do, but the intent behind it is not hateful.
That assumption is absurd. In fact, it's absurd enough to make me not want to "trust" a word you have to say. In any event, to adamantly say that nothing anti-gay or hateful is meant by it shows a lack empathy and understanding towards the power of language and the history of discrimination and hurt that connotes with a word. Depending on its usage, yes it can be harmless (the connection you have with the person making that slur, situational circumstances, etc) but even then if I call a friend a "fag" jokingly (I don't, but still...), it would probably be associated with a negative behavior I want to insult. And when it's thrown about as an insult in a situation in which someone is livid and wanting an outward escape to express that anger at a person, then yes there is the good possibility that there is some loathing and prejudice present (whether it be subconscious or innate). To dismiss it simply as "playground trash talk" is not only disrespectful towards those who feel offended hearing certain terms (whether it be n*gger, f*ggot, etc.), but shows a certain amount of ignorance as well.

It's not always about being PC and making everyone feel happy. It's also not about people "perpetuating their own sense of less than" because they feel "marginalized" or discriminated against (LOL...this is another absurd point I'll have to address tomorrow). It's simply about realizing that what you say can have an affect on people. And when you use words that have been used to dehumanize and demean certain groups for ages, you better be prepared to deal with certain consequences.
ampers& is offline  
post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:33 PM
Senior Member
 
Super Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 35,602
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

I understand your opinion. And my point remains that using those words isn't right, and it is immature, but it happens sometimes as a result of the sports culture you grew up in and the words that were thrown around. I never claim to be perfect; just being honest. Have you never used a slur in your life? And when you used it, did it mean you hated that group of people?

You don't have to trust me; you don't know me. But I believe that no one should be persecuted because of their sexual preference or the color of their skin. I believe if a person is straight, bi, gay, or asexual, they were born that way.

And I know words can hurt; I've had plenty of slurs come my way, too. Sadly, that's human, and that's life. Doesn't make it right. And although it can denote hatred, as you said, it doesn't always.

Last edited by Super Dave; Apr 14th, 2011 at 03:42 PM.
Super Dave is offline  
post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 11,576
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Thought police? Excuse me, no one is being punished for their thoughts.

Actions should not be judged by their intentions, they should be judged by their consequences. Are you honestly trying to tell me that a man throwing the word "fag" at another man is not meant to injure the other by insinuating that he is an inferior male? If the word "******" wasn't offensive then people wouldn't use it when they are angry and trying to verbally attack someone else. Let's stop pretending that just because the person being described as a "******" isn't gay, that suddenly the word is completely harmless.

And please, don't ever belittle the efforts of people who are working toward the empowerment and protection of marginalized communities. Including putting the word marginalized in quotations. If you don't feel marginalized, that's fine. But don't go prancing around thinking that you can adequately quantify the level of oppression that others face.
njnetswill is offline  
post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:55 PM
Senior Bitch.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wanderstruck
Posts: 10,730
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Robertson View Post
I understand your opinion. And my point remains that using those words isn't right, and it is immature, but it happens sometimes as a result of the sports culture you grew up in and the words that were thrown around. I never claim to be perfect; just being honest. Have you never used a slur in your life? And when you used it, did it mean you hated that group of people?

You don't have to trust me; you don't know me. But I believe that no one should be persecuted because of their sexual preference or the color of their skin. I believe if a person is straight, bi, gay, or asexual, they were born that way.

And I know words can hurt; I've had plenty of slurs come my way, too. Sadly, that's human, and that's life. Doesn't make it right. And although it can denote hatred, as you said, it doesn't always.
Oh it's good you acknowledge that it can denote hatred now because you certainly didn't in your initial post. In fact you seemed sure it didn't which is what was absurd to me.

And of course I have used slurs. But hatred? No. But I certainly connected those slurs with the negative characteristics of the groups normally associated with those slurs and I meant it as an insult. And I used those slurs knowing and realizing that if I said "fag" or "n*ggers" to certain people, there is the potential it could truly hurt and offend them. I'm not proud of it and I also realize it happens, but unlike you and pov, I don't dismiss it as "PC nonsense" when someone actually feels offended by it. Because it's NOT. It's different to insult someone by calling them ugly or fat or a loser as opposed to using a term associated with hatred and discrimination on entire groups of people. The kind of hatred and discrimination that still impacts them to this day. That's all I'm saying. Don't be so quick to dismiss the reaction to slurs as PC bullshit because it's not. Simple as that.
ampers& is offline  
post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 03:56 PM
Worshipping the bangs
 
miffedmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Larsson's Player Forum
Posts: 54,848
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

You know, there was actually once a time when coarse language was frowned upon simply because it was uncouth, not because it was politically incorrect.

I can (and do) curse with the best of them, but I also think it's gotten to the point where it's just, as much as anything else, boring.

One of Dementieva's banshee wails was, in its primal agony, far more communicative and evocative of her emotions than any string of four-letter words could ever have been (though I understand even in her case their may have been occasions when Mommy Vera might have needed to take a bar of soap to Lena's mouth).

Anyway, regardless of personal feelings, most leagues from kiddie leagues on up have rules against using certain times of language on the court/field/pitch, and if you break those rules you're going to get fined.

I agree that in the heat of a situation, some of us say things we regret, and don't always really mean--we choose certain words because we know they hurt, not because of how we feel about a specific person or group of people. So I wouldn't judge Kobe by this one incident, but by an overall pattern of his behavior.

P.S. There were a couple of times my son appointed himself PC Police on the soccer pitch and you know what? I really didn't have a problem with it.

Max
Pass the duct tape and super glue. Lena's done broke my heart one last time.
Onward my LOB! Lena (ret.) Vika Vee TOB Caro Alexa Sabs Wicky Lesia Vania BMS Ekat Andi H. Jo-La Lena V KP2 Lil Bit Kiki Mini Mak Baby Veronika
V Squad, The LOB Elite: Vika, Venus and the Mad Viking of Norrland
Jo-La Duchess of Norrland and Bastad
Elena Viatcheslavovna Dementieva--Eternal Goddess of the Divine Bangs
miffedmax is offline  
post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 04:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Super Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 35,602
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miching~Mallecho View Post
Oh it's good you acknowledge that it can denote hatred now because you certainly didn't in your initial post. In fact you seemed sure it didn't which is what was absurd to me.

And of course I have used slurs. But hatred? No. But I certainly connected those slurs with the negative characteristics of the groups normally associated with those slurs and I meant it as an insult. And I used those slurs knowing and realizing that if I said "fag" or "n*ggers" to certain people, there is the potential it could truly hurt and offend them. I'm not proud of it and I also realize it happens, but unlike you and pov, I don't dismiss it as "PC nonsense" when someone actually feels offended by it. Because it's NOT. It's different to insult someone by calling them ugly or fat or a loser as opposed to using a term associated with hatred and discrimination on entire groups of people. The kind of hatred and discrimination that still impacts them to this day. That's all I'm saying. Don't be so quick to dismiss the reaction to slurs as PC bullshit because it's not.
Again, I do completely understand your stance on the issue, and it's valid. I don't mean to dismiss the potential for hurt. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it, as I have been known to do.

In sports, particularly in America (I guess; that's all I know) and DEFINITELY in the NBA, a lot of unpalatable words fly around in the heat of battle. Kevin Garnett this season called Charlie Villanueva a "cancer patient" because Charlie has alopecia and has no body hair at all. Though I wasn't bald in high school or anything, I had a high hairline and someone called me "chemo" on the basketball court once. Sure, it hurt. But I think in this case, I bet the ref wasn't even hurt by it; he hears it all the time.

But I do understand your opinion and I apologize if it seems I was trivializing it. It was not my intent to dismiss it as "PC bullshit".

Last edited by Super Dave; Apr 14th, 2011 at 04:13 PM.
Super Dave is offline  
post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 04:18 PM
Senior Bitch.
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wanderstruck
Posts: 10,730
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Robertson View Post
Again, I do completely understand your stance on the issue, and it's valid. I don't mean to dismiss the potential for hurt. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying it, as I have been known to do.

In sports, particularly in America (I guess; that's all I know) and DEFINITELY in the NBA, a lot of unpalatable words fly around in the heat of battle. Kevin Garnett this season called Charlie Villanueva a "cancer patient" because Charlie has alopecia and has no body hair at all. Though I wasn't bald in high school or anything, I had a high hairline and someone called me "chemo" on the basketball court once. Sure, it hurt. But I think in this case, I bet the ref wasn't even hurt by it; he hears it all the time.

But I do understand your opinion and I apologize if it seems I was trivializing it.
It's cool. And I'm American and played basketball throughout high school and am very familiar with the NBA, so I know. I am temporarily volunteering in a country where I get slurs thrown out at me on a daily basis out of ignorance and curiosity (and maybe even anger once or twice). And it hurt at first, but not anymore. So yeah, I know that is also a possibility for the ref. But not viewers and fans who heard Kobe yell the slur in anger and felt offended. It's the same for my friends who visit me and hear someone yelling n*gger at me. They get more upset about it than me now. And I understand and appreciate it.
ampers& is offline  
post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old Apr 14th, 2011, 04:19 PM
Worshipping the bangs
 
miffedmax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Larsson's Player Forum
Posts: 54,848
                     
Re: The reaction to "slurs"

Oh, for God's sake, stop acting like adults trying to have an intelligent conversation, DR and MM. Start calling each other names and escalate into incoherent hysterics.

Don't either of you know anything about TF ethics and rules of behavior?

Max
Pass the duct tape and super glue. Lena's done broke my heart one last time.
Onward my LOB! Lena (ret.) Vika Vee TOB Caro Alexa Sabs Wicky Lesia Vania BMS Ekat Andi H. Jo-La Lena V KP2 Lil Bit Kiki Mini Mak Baby Veronika
V Squad, The LOB Elite: Vika, Venus and the Mad Viking of Norrland
Jo-La Duchess of Norrland and Bastad
Elena Viatcheslavovna Dementieva--Eternal Goddess of the Divine Bangs
miffedmax is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TennisForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome