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post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 04:24 AM Thread Starter
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'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

An old political saying in the USA. Not often challenged, to be honest. But recently, I've been giving it some thought, because a) there's a presidential election coming up, and b) it fails in the face of fact.

African-Americans in the USA are more often the victims of crime than any other racial group. They are also the most liberal.

In other words, the liberal who get mugged the most are the most liberal.

So .. why?

Some of it, of course, is that 'conservative' and 'liberal', in post WWII usage, are code words for whether or not you support using the Federal government to combat white racism. (I commend to anyone who wants to understand the development of race relations in the USA in the last 50 years "Eyes on the Prize", and "Eyes on the Prize II".)

Given that reality, you simply aren't going to see many conservative Blacks in the last fifty years. And given the political re-alignment that made the Republicans the party that opposed equal rights for Blacks, and the Democrats the party that supported equal rights for Blacks, all the crime in the world isn't going to produce many Black Republicans. This is especially ironic given that it was the Republicans that ended slavery, and it was Repubican support that allowed the limited civil rights legislation of the fifties and sixties to pass. But I digress ....

'A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged'

'A liberal is a conservative with a catastrphic illness'

How do such simplistic political statements come into common usage?

Food for thought, eh?

NOTE: [10-24-07]: When I say Black people are 'liberal', I'm focusing on how Blacks vote, relative to the rest of the population.

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Oct 24th, 2007 at 03:30 PM.
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post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 05:34 AM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

I can only speak for myself. I can definitely say that about 7 years ago I was more "left wing liberal" than I am now. I was very anti-war, very pro-choice and vehemently wanted gay marriage. Basically a rebel without a cause.

But now my opinions on those issues have swung a bit more to the right. By all means there are still issues very important to me like ecological conservation and global warming. I'm no tree hugger but I have enough intelligence to know that this is something we shouldn't be myopic about. We're talking about long-term survival of the species here.

I think the difference is that before I was a bleeding heart (i.e. blind) liberal but now I'm more a mature liberal who's willing to look at both sides of the coin. I'm not by any means a conservative though.

That's why I can't stand bleeding heart liberals because they just subscribe to a set of values that everyone in that group must subscribe to. The usual: gay marriage is a must, abortion anytime anywhere, all wars are bad, Israel is the devil, the US is guilty of imperialism BS. The problem is that these people hijack important issues like global warming.

Case in point is the Greens Party in our upcoming Australian election too. Some great policies but puts so much emphasis on saying sorry to the Aborigines. Who cares!? There are more important issues than a bunch of conquered people.

I also used to be very anti-religion but I've now a tolerance for all religions and certainly recognize the role they've played in nurturing society and cultures throughout history. Like I said - a more mature approach of being able to view something with the good and the bad.




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post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 05:39 AM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana View Post
African-Americans in the USA are more often the victims of crime than any other racial group. They are also the most liberal.

In other words, the liberal who get mugged the most are the most liberal.
Are African-Americans really that liberal though? This is a genuine question because I know that a lot of African-Americans are Christian and go to church and I'm sure quite a few of them would be anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion. No?

Also, remember there are social liberals and economic liberals too. So I think this is that simple.




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post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 06:01 AM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

I don't think you are supposed to take the quote so literally. Liberals are stereotyped as living the world of ideals and what not while conservative are supposedly grounded in the real world. A liberal is only liberal so long as he doesn't have to face his ideals in the real world.

and the opposite quote is true as well. When faced with death we often turn to our ideals cuz the reality of death is something we don't really want to face.

not really true overall but it does have some legitimacy.
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post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 10:03 AM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

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Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
I can only speak for myself. I can definitely say that about 7 years ago I was more "left wing liberal" than I am now. I was very anti-war, very pro-choice and vehemently wanted gay marriage. Basically a rebel without a cause.

But now my opinions on those issues have swung a bit more to the right. By all means there are still issues very important to me like ecological conservation and global warming. I'm no tree hugger but I have enough intelligence to know that this is something we shouldn't be myopic about. We're talking about long-term survival of the species here.

I think the difference is that before I was a bleeding heart (i.e. blind) liberal but now I'm more a mature liberal who's willing to look at both sides of the coin. I'm not by any means a conservative though.

That's why I can't stand bleeding heart liberals because they just subscribe to a set of values that everyone in that group must subscribe to. The usual: gay marriage is a must, abortion anytime anywhere, all wars are bad, Israel is the devil, the US is guilty of imperialism BS. The problem is that these people hijack important issues like global warming.

Case in point is the Greens Party in our upcoming Australian election too. Some great policies but puts so much emphasis on saying sorry to the Aborigines. Who cares!? There are more important issues than a bunch of conquered people.

I also used to be very anti-religion but I've now a tolerance for all religions and certainly recognize the role they've played in nurturing society and cultures throughout history. Like I said - a more mature approach of being able to view something with the good and the bad.


I'm not attacking you at all, but I think it's interesting that you now "can't stand" bleeding heart liberals. I would think considering you used to be one, that you'd understand (whether you disagreed or not) where they were coming from.

And Blacks tend to be the most liberal? Where and who are these black people. I think your statement would only be correct for Black people who also are apart of another minority class (meaning they're gay or a woman)

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post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 12:11 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

Quote:
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But now my opinions on those issues have swung a bit more to the right. By all means there are still issues very important to me like ecological conservation and global warming. I'm no tree hugger but I have enough intelligence to know that this is something we shouldn't be myopic about. We're talking about long-term survival of the species here.

I think the difference is that before I was a bleeding heart (i.e. blind) liberal but now I'm more a mature liberal who's willing to look at both sides of the coin. I'm not by any means a conservative though.

That's why I can't stand bleeding heart liberals because they just subscribe to a set of values that everyone in that group must subscribe to. The usual: gay marriage is a must, abortion anytime anywhere, all wars are bad, Israel is the devil, the US is guilty of imperialism BS. The problem is that these people hijack important issues like global warming.
You describe yourself as having views more complex than the labels typically used to define people yet you use stereotypes identified with the liberal label to define others. Guess what? You aren't unique. Most people have viewpoints at least as complex as yours.

By your definition of a liberal, we don't have any liberal candidates running for president. I think in the U.S. the Democratic party currently has more diversity of views than the Republican party. You don't hear too many democrats beating up on each other for not being "liberal enough". "Not conservitive enough" and "real conservitive" seem to be the themes of the current Republican presidential campaign.

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post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 01:14 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

I think the U.S. has lost sight, at least in terms of control of its allegedly conservative party. To me, conservatism is characterized by a support for the status quo, a "go-slow" policy toward change, a realpolitik-based foreign policy and fiscal responsibility.

Since the '80s, the Republicans and most alleged "conservatives" are either reactionaries wanting to do every change since 1945, or neocons, who are so intent on creating their own reality that they will destroy the very bedrock of our country in their quest for illusory power, or whores to big business with no respect for ethics or fairness.

That's why I quit being a Republican. (Yes, even though Texas is an "Open" state where you don't have to register, I sent the Republican Party Chairman an official "resignation" letter in protest of the party's idealogy during the late '80s and '90s, and they've gotten worse since then).

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post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 01:45 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Case in point is the Greens Party in our upcoming Australian election too. Some great policies but puts so much emphasis on saying sorry to the Aborigines. Who cares!? There are more important issues than a bunch of conquered people.

Wow Sam, your views get more repugnant each time I log in.

I agree that saying Sorry wont achieve much in real terms, but it is a symbolic gesture to show the regret that a lot of australians feel about our shameful treatment of the aboriginies.. Ever heard the term compassion?

You've written me off before as 'bleeding heart liberal', but I also have views that dont fit perfectly into the left wing ideology - you are not special in that regard.

You dismiss the opinion of anyone who is not PRO-Israel as just another 'bleeding heart liberal ' but Ive come to my opinion of Israel slowly over a number of years of following what happens in that region - 10 years ago i just thought of the Israeli's as poor victims of crazy terrorists (as you do now), but once I was old enough to really apply my own analysis to the issue, its clear that the imbalance of support for Israel in the USA hurts american interests. You cannot pour fuel on a fire (of hatred) for dozens of years and not expect some retalliation (9/11) - and thats straight from Ron Paul.
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post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 02:02 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

Conservatism is an outdated and completely fruitless political ideaology.
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post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 02:57 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
I can only speak for myself. I can definitely say that about 7 years ago I was more "left wing liberal" than I am now. I was very anti-war, very pro-choice and vehemently wanted gay marriage. Basically a rebel without a cause.

But now my opinions on those issues have swung a bit more to the right. By all means there are still issues very important to me like ecological conservation and global warming. I'm no tree hugger but I have enough intelligence to know that this is something we shouldn't be myopic about. We're talking about long-term survival of the species here.

I think the difference is that before I was a bleeding heart (i.e. blind) liberal but now I'm more a mature liberal who's willing to look at both sides of the coin. I'm not by any means a conservative though.

That's why I can't stand bleeding heart liberals because they just subscribe to a set of values that everyone in that group must subscribe to. The usual: gay marriage is a must, abortion anytime anywhere, all wars are bad, Israel is the devil, the US is guilty of imperialism BS. The problem is that these people hijack important issues like global warming.

Case in point is the Greens Party in our upcoming Australian election too. Some great policies but puts so much emphasis on saying sorry to the Aborigines. Who cares!? There are more important issues than a bunch of conquered people.

I also used to be very anti-religion but I've now a tolerance for all religions and certainly recognize the role they've played in nurturing society and cultures throughout history. Like I said - a more mature approach of being able to view something with the good and the bad.
In short: You were a liberal, now you are a neo-conservative.
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post #11 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 03:00 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

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In short: You were a liberal, now you are a neo-conservative.
LOL - Brilliant post...
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post #12 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

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Are African-Americans really that liberal though? This is a genuine question because I know that a lot of African-Americans are Christian and go to church and I'm sure quite a few of them would be anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion. No?

Also, remember there are social liberals and economic liberals too. So I think this is that simple.
I am being over-simplistic as well, but to do justice to this topic would take a 500 page graduate thesis. This really isn't the forum for that. As for whether or not African-Americans are really that liberal, they vote that liberal. 90% Democratic Party voters, and their simply aren't any liberal Repubicans left. Both the Democratic and Republican parties used to have substantial numbers of liberals and conservatives. That's no longer the case.

Also, as I pointed out in the opening post, 'liberal' and 'conservative' largely devolves to a person's position on whether or not the Federal government should have been involved in countering white racism. Yes, there are other issues, but when it comes to the ballot box, that's the one that largely tells the tale. I personally think the Federal government should have to tax, currently, for every penny they spend. Up til Bush II, that was a Republican position, but I've never voted Republican. Their tolerance for white privilege in the USA is simply an overriding issue.

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #13 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

Quote:
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Case in point is the Greens Party in our upcoming Australian election too. Some great policies but puts so much emphasis on saying sorry to the Aborigines.
Apologies cost little. Why does it even bother you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam L View Post
Who cares!? There are more important issues than a bunch of conquered people.
Isn't that the same position as 'who cares about victims of rape?' There ARE more important issues. But perhaps not to the rape victim. Which is why we spend tax dollars giving counseling to rape victims.

An apology is somewhat less expensive. It DOES begin to give the 'conquest' the status of a crime however, which is, no doubt, the reason for some of the opposition.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Oct 24th, 2007 at 04:04 PM.
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post #14 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 04:05 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

here is a definition:

A true conservative is one who supports Ron Paul...end of story

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post #15 of 65 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2007, 04:13 PM
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Re: 'A Conservative is a Liberal who's been mugged'

In the USA, liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, tend to be far more alike than
they care to admit. Most Americans are more middle of the road, moderate. In comparison to European
and Latin American 'liberal'/'conservative' labels. Not a lot of marxists in the USA.


What's that Churchill statement - if you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart,
if you're not a conservative by 40, you have no brain.

It's just called 'life'....you get a home, buy a car, pay your loans, you work, get married,
get divorced, etc., you start to look at many things differently. You start to realize hey,I
pay those taxes. Get a property tax bill, and see all the different taxes on there, and you
get hit with reality. You look around and see lots of people here illegally, taking jobs
you could do, or your teen kids could do, using tax dollars in hospitals and schools, etc.
People change.


But, black Americans in poll after poll are actually pretty moderate to conservative in their social
views on things. But, the Democratic Party has a monopoly on their vote. Which is not really a smart
thing to do- the Democrats don't have to do much to keep that vote, so things don't have to change.

Which is why both parties are courting the Hispanic vote so much, they need it.
Why both parties want desperately to make changes to immigration laws to make it
easier for illegals to be here....and make nice with what they think is what
hispanics want. Again, the black vote will be taken for granted. It's a lock for
one party.
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