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post #1 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Veil row teacher sacked.

Veil row teacher sacked



Press Association
Friday November 24, 2006
EducationGuardian.co.uk





A Muslim teaching assistant who was suspended for refusing to remove her veil in the classroom has been sacked.Aishah Azmi, 24, of Thornhill Lees, Dewsbury, west Yorkshire, was suspended on full pay earlier this year by Kirklees council and has now been sacked, sources said.
Last month, an employment tribunal dismissed three of Mrs Azmi's claims of discrimination and harassment but found that she was victimised by Headfield Church of England junior school in Dewsbury and awarded her £1,000 for "injury to feelings".
A Kirklees council spokesman said he could not comment on Mrs Azmi's employment status due to confidentiality rules.
Mrs Azmi's lawyer Nick Whittingham, of the Kirklees law centre, said the local education authority were involved in a disciplinary process against her but he was not aware that any decision had been reached.
Mrs Azmi said she was willing to remove her veil in front of children - but not when male colleagues were present.
Her case sparked a national debate on multiculturalism in Britain.
The prime minister, Tony Blair, said the veil row was part of a necessary debate about the way the Muslim community integrates into British society and said the veil was a "mark of separation" which makes people of other ethnic backgrounds feel uncomfortable.
The intervention by a series of politicians, which culminated in Mr Blair's remarks, were criticised both by the tribunal and Muslim community leaders.
The tribunal report said it was "most unfortunate" that politicians had made comments on the case which were sub judice.
The debate was sparked by the leader of the House of Commons, Jack Straw, when he said that the wearing of full veils - or niqab - made community relations more difficult.
The government's race minister, Phil Woolas, demanded Mrs Azmi be sacked, accusing her of "denying the right of children to a full education" because her stand meant she could not "do her job" and insisted that barring men from working with her would amount to "sexual discrimination".
The shadow home secretary, David Davis, launched a stinging attack on Muslim leaders for risking "voluntary apartheid" in Britain, and allegedly expecting special protection from criticism.
Last month, Labour MP Shahid Malik, who represents Mrs Azmi's home town of Dewsbury, said the tribunal ruling was "quite clearly a victory for common sense" and urged her to drop her appeal against the tribunal's decision.
Mrs Azmi's claim was brought as a test case under the new religious discrimination regulations, the employment equality (religion or belief) regulations 2004.



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Erm. Thoughts?

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post #2 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 05:24 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

The veil makes her incompetent for the job, because kids do need to communicate with facial expressions too, and this is part of education. I'm more worried about the comments of Blair and co, that the veil is a mark of separation. It only is this way if you chose to see it that way; it's like asking people to conform to society in order to be tolerent of them, which is quite contradictory to the concept of tolerence.
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post #3 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 05:33 PM
 
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Well I don't think the veil makes her incompetent but I don't really see how she could expect to be a school teacher without any men seeing her in the classroom.

Seems a sensible decision to me that she be advised to seek alternative employment.

I wish the politicians and media hadn't made such a big deal out of it though .
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post #4 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 05:41 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by !<blocparty>!
The prime minister, Tony Blair, said the veil row was part of a necessary debate about the way the Muslim community integrates into British society and said the veil was a "mark of separation" which makes people of other ethnic backgrounds feel uncomfortable.
Tony is always going on about how Muslims, especially those born and raised here, are already part of British society. It therefore seems stupid to ask them to integrate into a society of which they already form a part. Besides, everyone knows that this "essential debate" was started because Jack Straw wanted to project himself as a grown-up who is unafraid of confronting controversial issues, ahead of the deputy leadership campaign, it has bugger all to do with the welfare of society.

I wonder if they will be asking the Sikhs to remove their turbans as part of their drive to bulldoze these walls of separation.

P.S. The woman's sacking was justifiable.

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post #5 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:31 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grachka View Post
I wonder if they will be asking the Sikhs to remove their turbans as part of their drive to bulldoze these walls of separation.
The turban is different however. It is mandatory within the Sikh religion. The same cannot be said of the veil within Islam. It's a cultural thing in many instances. There are references in the Quran to covering all parts of the body except the face and hands. Thus, a scarf (hijab) covering the hair is acceptable.

Quote:
Q. So it went under or through the net?
JELENA JANKOVIC: I think through or underneath, and then somehow -- I have no idea...

Q. It went through the net.
JELENA JANKOVIC: Through the net? Under the net?
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post #6 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:33 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

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Originally Posted by kiera123 View Post
The turban is different however. It is mandatory within the Sikh religion. The same cannot be said of the veil within Islam. It's a cultural thing in many instances. There are references in the Quran to covering all parts of the body except the face and hands. Thus, a scarf (hijab) covering the hair is acceptable.
uh, for many schools of Islam, the veil as well as some other sort of coverings are mandatory. Why would you think a woman would cover herself this way if she didn't think of it as part of the practise of Islam?
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post #7 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grachka View Post
I wonder if they will be asking the Sikhs to remove their turbans as part of their drive to bulldoze these walls of separation.
But, don't you think turbans are different in that they don't cover an entire face?

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post #8 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:47 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiera123
The turban is different however. It is mandatory within the Sikh religion. The same cannot be said of the veil within Islam. It's a cultural thing in many instances. There are references in the Quran to covering all parts of the body except the face and hands. Thus, a scarf (hijab) covering the hair is acceptable.
As Jorje said, in many cases it is mandatory. Besides, that wasn't my point. I'm saying that if you choose to say the veil creates divisions on because of being a cultural/religious symbol, you can't avoid demonising turbans in the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by !<blocparty>! View Post
But, don't you think turbans are different in that they don't cover an entire face?
No. Jack Straw claimed that he objected to the veil as a 'symbol' of separation, not a physical one. He didn't object to it on the grounds that the women's voices were muffled or whatever, but on the premise that the veil is a hypothetical religious/cultural barrier. Translation: he was uncomfortable because they didn't look or act like the majority. He should apply this logic to Sikhs in this case also.

It's all based on the erroneous belief that in order to function as a society, you have to all look, act and believe in generally the same way.

The fruit series is suspended whilst Grachka (obatafan) mourns Saori's retirement.

Saori Obata

Born : April 23rd 1978
Age: 28
Residence: Tokyo, Japan
Height: 5' 5" (1.65m)
Weight: 132 lbs. (60 kg)
Plays: Left handed
Career Prize Money: $652,031
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ITF Titles: Augusta (2005), Gifu (2005), Fukuoka (2003), Port Pirie (2001), Jakarta (1996).
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Finalist (1): 2003 - Tashkent.
Semifinalist (1): 2003 - Bali.
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post #9 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:49 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorje286 View Post
uh, for many schools of Islam, the veil as well as some other sort of coverings are mandatory. Why would you think a woman would cover herself this way if she didn't think of it as part of the practise of Islam?
As I said, it's more a cultural thing. Such as wearing the burqa in Afghanistan. Many women would love not to wear it, but their society imposes it upon them. Even now many women wear it for fear of reprisals, not because they think they need to in order to be a good Muslim.

Most Muslim scholars agree that the Quran does not insist upon the face being covered. It's certainly not obligatory to wear one in this country. It's their choice.

Quote:
Q. So it went under or through the net?
JELENA JANKOVIC: I think through or underneath, and then somehow -- I have no idea...

Q. It went through the net.
JELENA JANKOVIC: Through the net? Under the net?
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post #10 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:53 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

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Originally Posted by kiera123 View Post
Many women would love not to wear it, but their society imposes it upon them. Even now many women wear it for fear of reprisals, not because they think they need to in order to be a good Muslim.
What are you talking about? There are schools of Islam that think a woman should cover herself. Point is, this whole covering thing is part of the practise of Islam for a lot of women, especially for those that are willing to wear a veil in a generally hostile environment to such attire. So let's not make it as if they are wearing veils just to be confrontational like some people like to believe. It's part of the practise of their religion.
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post #11 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:58 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

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Originally Posted by !<blocparty>! View Post
The government's [color = red]race minister[/color], Phil Woolas, demanded Mrs Azmi be sacked, accusing her of "denying the right of children to a full education" because her stand meant she could not "do her job" and insisted that barring men from working with her would amount to "sexual discrimination".
You have a "minister of Race" in UK?
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post #12 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grachka View Post
No. Jack Straw claimed that he objected to the veil as a 'symbol' of separation, not a physical one. He didn't object to it on the grounds that the women's voices were muffled or whatever, but on the premise that the veil is a hypothetical religious/cultural barrier. Translation: he was uncomfortable because they didn't look or act like the majority. He should apply this logic to Sikhs in this case also.

It's all based on the erroneous belief that in order to function as a society, you have to all look, act and believe in generally the same way.
Quote:
Mr Straw explained the impact he thought veils could have in a society where watching facial expressions was important for contact between different people.

"Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers - people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able pass the time of day," he said.

"That's made more difficult if people are wearing a veil. That's just a fact of life.

"I understand the concerns but I hope, however, there can be a mature debate about this.

"I come to this out of a profound commitment to equal rights for Muslim communities and an equal concern about adverse development about parallel communities."
I think that this applies much more in schools where communication (i.e. facial expressions) between teachers and pupils is really important.

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post #13 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 07:03 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

Quote:
I wonder if they will be asking the Sikhs to remove their turbans as part of their drive to bulldoze these walls of separation.
You can't compare head wear with facial wear ----apples and oranges my friend

veil


turban (the face is visible despite the beard)


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post #14 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 07:20 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

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Originally Posted by Jorje286 View Post
What are you talking about? There are schools of Islam that think a woman should cover herself. Point is, this whole covering thing is part of the practise of Islam for a lot of women, especially for those that are willing to wear a veil in a generally hostile environment to such attire. So let's not make it as if they are wearing veils just to be confrontational like some people like to believe. It's part of the practise of their religion.
Where did I say they're doing it to be confrontational? If you read my post again, you'll notice I said "in many instances" it's a cultural thing. I didn't make a blanket statement as I'm aware there are different schools in Islam.

The fact is, in many instances, it is a cultural thing not a religious thing. I mentioned Afghanistan earlier because that highlights my point. Many women wore it because they had to, not because they wanted to. It didn't matter what they believed.

Certainly some Muslim women wear it because they believe their religion instructs them to, but I wasn't referring to those.

Quote:
Q. So it went under or through the net?
JELENA JANKOVIC: I think through or underneath, and then somehow -- I have no idea...

Q. It went through the net.
JELENA JANKOVIC: Through the net? Under the net?

Last edited by ~Kiera~; Nov 24th, 2006 at 10:09 PM.
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post #15 of 68 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 2006, 07:42 PM
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Re: Veil row teacher sacked.

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Originally Posted by dementieva's fan View Post
You have a "minister of Race" in UK?
No.
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