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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2006, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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Isreal Blindly Firing Missiles into Populated Areas

Hezbollah Using Civilians As Human Shields

Believe it or not, the thread title and the sentence above are describing the same thing.

Hezbollah are using the 'fire, move and fire' tactics of classical guerilla warfare. Israel are firing back at where the missiles come from. Using munitions that destroy a good deal of the surrounding area. This is classical, long range artillery war. But, once the airports and roads have been bombed so civilians can't leave, this sort of artillery and bomber warfare guarantees civilian casualties. It simply isn't accurate enough not too.

But in the USA, saying 'Hezbollah is using civilians as human shields' is politically a lot more acceptable than 'Israel isn't exactly sure where the Hezbollah fighters are, so they're killing everyone anywhere near where they see a missile fired'.

Yet it comes to the same thing.

For that matter, there not that much difference between Israel shelling South Lebanon, and Hezbollah shelling northern Israel. The Israelis are using more accurate weapons, but they are also vastly more destructive weapons. This is why so many more Lebanese civilians are dying than Israeli civilians.

One might also note, the IDF is firing at a lot more than positions where missiles are being fired. There have been published reports of the IDF being ordered to destroy '10 buildings for every missile', and civilians saying that houses are being destroyed in towns with no Hezbollah fighters. Given that both Israel and Hezbollah have reason to lie about this subject, there's no real way to know who to believe.

It would be nice if the political spin on the war news wasn't quite so intense, but that won't ever change.

There's that wonderful George Carlin line 'Why are Israeli terrorists 'commandos', and Arab commandos, 'terrorists'?

Let me leave you with one last thought. 'Terrorism' was a term that originally described actions by the state against civilian populations and resistance groups. The tem came out of 'The Reign of Terror', a political period in France that immediately followed the death of Louis XVI of France in 1793.

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Aug 1st, 2006 at 09:12 PM.
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2006, 09:15 PM
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Israel's 'self defense' map


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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2006, 09:28 PM
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I love how the thread starter (consistent with his/her world view in general, though, I'm afraid ) continually chooses to ignore the fact that

THIS WOULDN'T BE HAPPENING AT ALL IF HEZBOLLAH HADN'T STARTED A SHOOTING WAR WITH ISRAEL IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!



Did I forget to mention the fact that he/she doesn't seem to mind when Israeli children are DELIBERATELY targeted by Hezbollah, in 180 degree contrast to the ACCIDENTAL (albeit JUST as tragic) collateral deaths to Lebanese children brought about by HEZBOLLAH DELIBERATELY DRAWING ISRAEL'S FIRE TO THOSE AREAS, thereby using their own people as chips to win political points on the Arab street????

NAH!!!! It's ALL Israel's fault.

Just as Islamo-fascist terrorism in general is America's fault, eh?


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The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. Ps. 36:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Ps. 14:1, 53:1

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Prov. 1:7

...Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. Job 28:28

Last edited by JustineTime; Aug 7th, 2006 at 04:45 AM.
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2006, 09:35 PM
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no, arabs are evil. go kill their children and then blame it on them
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2006, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by azdaja
no, arabs are evil. go kill their children and then blame it on them

Ye-a-ah-h. THAT was the gist of my post.

JESUS

The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. Ps. 36:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Ps. 14:1, 53:1

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Prov. 1:7

...Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. Job 28:28
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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2006, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime

Did I forget to mention the fact that he/she doesn't seem to mind when Israeli children are DELIBERATELY targeted by Hezbollah, in 180 degree contrast to the ACCIDENTAL (albeit JUST as tragic) collateral deaths to Lebanese children brought about by HEZBOLLAH DELIBERATELY DRAWING ISRAEL'S FIRE TO THOSE AREAS, thereby using their own people as chips to win political points on the Arab street????

who said HEZBOLLAH deliberately drew israel fire to those areas??? what, the biased NEWS?

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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
I love how the thread starter (consistent with his/her world view in general, though, I'm afraid ) continually chooses to ignore the fact that

THIS WOULDN'T BE HAPPENING AT ALL IF HEZBOLLAH HADN'T STARTED A SHOOTING WAR WITH ISRAEL IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!
You waste an awful lot of words there. Pity you didn't bother to study the facts first. Israel and Hezbollah have been shooting at each since for well over a decade. The shooting didn't stop when Israel partially withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. The shooting was just longer range (Except the occassional raid by either side). It's been going on ever since. This is just the latest move in a very long chess game.

Nothing started July 12th. It's a continuation of a war that has fluctuations in intensity, but has never truly stopped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
Did I forget to mention the fact that he/she doesn't seem to mind when Israeli children are DELIBERATELY targeted by Hezbollah
I post a lot. I stand by what I write. If that's your conclusion, you're just wrong. But I can live with you being wrong. It's something you do well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
the ACCIDENTAL (albeit JUST as tragic) collateral deaths to Lebanese children brought about by HEZBOLLAH DELIBERATELY DRAWING ISRAEL'S FIRE TO THOSE AREAS, thereby using their own people as chips to win political points on the Arab street????
Sorry, no evidence supports the theory that Hzbollah is trying to get Israel to fire at Lebanese civilians. Also, we have only Israel's word that they aren't attcking civilians. I'm inclined to believe them, in a limited sense. But when ambulances, hospitals, Lebanese Army bases, and rescuers trying to get to UN observers are attacked by the IDF, the idea that they're just targetting Hexbollah fighters is unsupportable. It's a nice myth some of Israel's more ardent supporters like to throw around, but then, that's the actual point of the thread.

One sde "Killing civilians indiscriminantly" = The other side "Using human shields".

It describes the same action. Only the politics of the person talking vary.

If you use tactics that kill a lot of non-combatants, you need a story that blames somebody else.

I think the IDF would be way better off saying "yeah our tactics kill a lot of civilians, but the alternative is ground warfare where WE would take a lot more casualties".

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 01:29 AM
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Shameless, Utterly shameless

Shameless. Utterly shameless

Volcano, can you believe this!

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VI...Sake_0731.html

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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 01:34 AM
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The Moral Culpability for Qana

...a view from a real conservative--not the phony transformed leftist neocon Trotskyites

The Moral Culpability for Qana

by Patrick J. Buchanan

"Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah," roared Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon on July 27.

"Every village from which a Katyusha is fired must be destroyed," bellowed an Israeli general in a quote bannered by the nation's largest newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth.

The Israeli paper then summarized what the justice minister and general were saying: "In other words, a village from which rockets are fired at Israel will simply be destroyed by fire." That was Thursday.

Sunday, in Qana, 57 of Haim Ramon's "terrorists," 37 of them children, were massacred with precision-guided bombs. Apparently, Katyushas had been fired from Qana, near the destroyed building.

"One who goes to sleep with rockets shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wake up in the morning," said Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman.

Today, we hear unctuous statements about how Israel takes pains to avoid civilian casualties, drops leaflets to warn civilians to flee target areas, and conforms to all the rules of civilized warfare.

But Israel's words and deeds contradict her propaganda. As the war began, Ehud Olmert accused Lebanon, which had condemned Hezbollah for the killing and capture of the Israeli soldiers, of an "act of war." Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz publicly threatened "to turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years."

Gillerman, at a pro-Israel rally in New York, thundered, "[T]o those countries who claim that we are using disproportionate force, I have only this to say: You're damn right we are."

"His comments drew wild applause," said the Jerusalem Post.

Though Israel is dissembling now, Gillerman spoke the truth then. No sooner had Hezbollah taken the two Israeli soldiers hostage than Israel unleashed an air war – on Lebanon. The Beirut airport was bombed, its fuel storage tanks set ablaze. The coast was blockaded. Power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads, trucks, and buses were all hit with air strikes.

Within 48 hours, it was apparent Israel was exploiting Hezbollah's attack to execute a preconceived military plan to destroy Lebanon – i.e., the collective punishment of a people and nation for the crimes of a renegade militia they could not control. It was the moral equivalent of a municipal police going berserk, shooting, killing, and ravaging an African-American community, because Black Panthers had ambushed and killed cops.

If Israel is not in violation of the principle of proportionality, by which Christians are to judge the conduct of a just war, what can that term mean? There are 600 civilian dead in Lebanon, 19 in Israel, a ratio of 30-1, though Hezbollah is firing unguided rockets, while Israel is using precision-guided munitions.

Thousands of Lebanese civilians are injured. Perhaps 800,000 are homeless.

Yet, whatever one thinks of the morality of what Israel is doing, the stupidity is paralyzing. Instead of maintaining the moral and political high ground it had – when even Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan were condemning Hezbollah, and privately hoping Israel would inflict a humiliating defeat on Nasrallah – Israel launched an air war on an innocent people. Now, 87 percent of Lebanese back Hezbollah, and the entire Arab and Islamic world, Shia and Sunni alike, is rallying behind Nasrallah.

And how does one defend the behavior of the United States?

When Gillerman was exulting in the disproportionality of Israel's attack on Lebanon, U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton was smiling smugly beside him. When the UN Security Council tabled a resolution condemning Hezbollah's igniting of the war and Katyusha attacks, but also the excesses of Israel's reprisals, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton vetoed it. When a few congressmen sought to moderate a pro-Israeli resolution by adding words urging "all sides to protect innocent life and infrastructure," GOP leader John Boehner ordered the words taken down.

Why? Because, says Zbigniew Brzezinski, AIPAC, the Israeli lobby, had prepared the resolution and wanted it passed the way they wrote it. Our Knesset complied. It sailed through the House 410-8.

For two weeks, Bush seemed unable to find a word of criticism for what our friends in Israel were doing to our friends in Lebanon. He publicly sent more bombs to Israel. He and Condi emphasized that America did not want a cease-fire – yet.

And because America provides Israel with the bombs it uses on Lebanon, and we refused to restrain the Israelis, and we opposed every effort for a cease-fire before Sunday, America shares full moral and political responsibility for the massacre at Qana.

Rubbing our noses in our own cravenness, "Bibi" Netanyahu took time out, a week ago, from his daily appearances on American television, denouncing terrorism, to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the terror attack on the King David Hotel by Menachem Begin's Irgun, an attack that killed 92 people, among them British nurses.

This was not a terrorist act, Bibi explained, because Irgun telephoned a 15-minute warning to the hotel before the bombs went off. Right. And those children in that basement in Qana should not have ignored the Israeli leaflets warning them to clear out of southern Lebanon.

Our Israeli friends appear to be playing us for fools.

COPYRIGHT CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

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"Power always thinks...that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws." –-John Adams

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"Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative." - Chapter 2, Heretics, 1905
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
I love how the thread starter (consistent with his/her world view in general, though, I'm afraid ) continually chooses to ignore the fact that

THIS WOULDN'T BE HAPPENING AT ALL IF HEZBOLLAH HADN'T STARTED A SHOOTING WAR WITH ISRAEL IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!



Did I forget to mention the fact that he/she doesn't seem to mind when Israeli children are DELIBERATELY targeted by Hezbollah, in 180 degree contrast to the ACCIDENTAL (albeit JUST as tragic) collateral deaths to Lebanese children brought about by HEZBOLLAH DELIBERATELY DRAWING ISRAEL'S FIRE TO THOSE AREAS, thereby using their own people as chips to win political points on the Arab street????

NAH!!!! It's ALL Israel's fault.

Just as Islmo-fascist terrorism in general is America's fault, eh?

When muslims fire missiles at Israel, they are "fighting back"...when Israel uses more force they aren't playing fair. The people on this board NEVER disappoint do they?

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COUNTDOWN!
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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 02:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeway11
I forwarded the link to a couple friends who are ardent supporters of Israel, but a bit cynical about charitable contributions. They'll contribute if they find the site is legit.

I'll send my money to Medecins Sans Frontieres. But thanks for the tip.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 02:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeway11
...a view from a real conservative--not the phony transformed leftist neocon Trotskyites

The Moral Culpability for Qana

by Patrick J. Buchanan
Pat Buchanan is, in some ways, the bane of my political existence. 90% of what he says is sensible, insightful, well-reasoned, and shows a complete awareness of the current situation.

The 10% somehow always turns out to be psycho-pathetic.

But this time, he's taken nuance to a new level. There's exactly ONE sentence that points out that Hezbollah fired missiles into Israel. The other 99% is about Israeli 'disproportionality', and disregard for the live of civilians.

I've got to reject the entire article. It's werll-writteb, logical, and utterly misleading.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Aug 2nd, 2006 at 02:29 AM.
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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
I love how the thread starter (consistent with his/her world view in general, though, I'm afraid ) continually chooses to ignore the fact that

THIS WOULDN'T BE HAPPENING AT ALL IF HEZBOLLAH HADN'T STARTED A SHOOTING WAR WITH ISRAEL IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

</B>You waste an awful lot of words there. Pity you didn't bother to study the facts first. Israel and Hezbollah have been shooting at each since for well over a decade.
Gee, thanks for clueing me in, Volcana. And all this time I thought Jews and Arabs were getting along famously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
The shooting didn't stop when Israel partially withdrew from Lebanon in 2000.
Quote:
The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 marked the first attempt to draw the Lebanon-Israel border on a map. In 1918, as World War I victors, the British and French tried to draw that line on the ground. As a military, and not a political boundary, the border remained technically open to revision. Several modifications, reflecting primarily the rivalry and interests of the British and French in the division of spoils, were adopted and codified in 1923. It is this 1923 border (referred to today as the "blue line") which UN team cartographers painstakingly verified in the wake of Israel's [ Nope, no "partial" here. ]withdrawal from Lebanon.


"Partially" withdrew. Even your precious UN verified the withdrawal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
The shooting was just longer range (Except the occassional raid by either side).
I really love your moral equivalence here. But I really must admit my ignorance: name 1 time Israel has made an unprovoked, unilateral raid into Lebanon, would you please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
Did I forget to mention the fact that he/she doesn't seem to mind when Israeli children are DELIBERATELY targeted by Hezbollah

I post a lot. I stand by what I write. If that's your conclusion, you're just wrong.
Really? Perhaps so. So pray direct me to a post of yours where you decry Hizbullah's deliberate targeting of Israeli women and children as vehemently (OK, at all), as you do Israel's "mass murder" of Lebanese civilians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
But I can live with you being wrong. It's something you do well.
We all have our special gifts, don't we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
the ACCIDENTAL (albeit JUST as tragic) collateral deaths to Lebanese children brought about by HEZBOLLAH DELIBERATELY DRAWING ISRAEL'S FIRE TO THOSE AREAS, thereby using their own people as chips to win political points on the Arab street????

Sorry, no evidence supports the theory that Hzbollah is trying to get Israel to fire at Lebanese civilians. Also, we have only Israel's word that they aren't attcking civilians. I'm inclined to believe them, in a limited sense. But when ambulances, hospitals, Lebanese Army bases, and rescuers trying to get to UN observers are attacked by the IDF, the idea that they're just targetting Hexbollah fighters is unsupportable. It's a nice myth some of Israel's more ardent supporters like to throw around, but then, that's the actual point of the thread.
I just LOVE your fair-and-balanced Israel-can-do-no-right manner of posting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
If you use tactics that kill a lot of non-combatants, you need a story that blames somebody else.

I think the IDF would be way better off saying "yeah our tactics kill a lot of civilians, but the alternative is ground warfare where WE would take a lot more casualties".
Oy vey! Your kind will only be satisfied when Israel lines up a bunch of its own soldiers and machine guns 'em into a ditch, until the casualty counts are more fair and balanced.

And they ARE going in on the ground, but thank God they didn't take your advice and softened up the opposition with their superior firepower first.

How confusing it must be living in your world of gray. For myself, I hope Israel grinds Hizbullah to powder. You really need to get a clue as to how these Islamo-fascist nutcases REALLY think...if, that is, you don't want to face the choice between conversion to fundamentalist Islam or death in the near future.

JESUS

The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. Ps. 36:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Ps. 14:1, 53:1

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Prov. 1:7

...Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding. Job 28:28

Last edited by JustineTime; Aug 2nd, 2006 at 06:00 AM.
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustineTime
[size=2]

Gee, thanks for clueing me in, Volcana. And all this time I thought Jews and Arabs were getting along famously.




[/font]

"Partially" withdrew. Even your precious UN verified the withdrawal.



I really love your moral equivalence here. But I really must admit my ignorance: name 1 time Israel has made an unprovoked, unilateral raid into Lebanon, would you please?



Really? Perhaps so. So pray direct me to a post of yours where you decry Hizbullah's deliberate targeting of Israeli women and children as vehemently (OK, at all), as you do Israel's "mass murder" of Lebanese civilians.



We all have our special gifts, don't we?



I just LOVE your fair-and-balanced Israel-can-do-no-right manner of posting.




Oy vey! Your kind will only be satisfied when Israel lines up a bunch of its own soldiers and machine guns 'em into a ditch, until the casualty counts are more fair and balanced.

And they ARE going in on the ground, but thank God they didn't take your advice and softened up the opposition with their superior firepower first.

How confusing it must be living in your world of gray. For myself, I hope Israel grinds Hizbullah to powder. You really need to get a clue as to how these Islamo-fascist nutcases REALLY think...if, that is, you don't want to face the choice between conversion to fundamentalist Islam or death in the near future.

grinding people to powder wow, you just won the fucked up of the year award, wow that comment is just , who are you to take life so lightly, what makes you better than a terrorist, i mean your comments are just , seems you treat life with no respect, turning people to dust is much harder to do, talking about it is one thing, doing it is another, if you really feel like this go get some help, i mean we all have our opinions and that is great but you well thats a bit too much really go get some help
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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 2006, 07:44 AM
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what kind of person spends most of his time criticizing a country but cant spell the country correctly?
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