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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 30th, 2006, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Arrow The "hiding among civilians" myth

The "hiding among civilians" myth
Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.

By Mitch Prothero

Jul. 28, 2006 | The bombs came just as night fell, around 7 p.m. The locals knew that the 10-story apartment building had been the office, and possibly the residence, of Sheik Tawouk, the Hezbollah commander for the south, so they had moved their families out at the start of the war. The landlord had refused to rent to Hezbollah when they requested the top floors of the building. No matter, the locals said, the Hezb guys just moved in anyway in the name of the "resistance."

Everyone knew that the building would be hit eventually. Its location in downtown Tyre, which had yet to be hit by Israeli airstrikes, was not going to protect it forever. And "everyone" apparently included Sheik Tawouk, because he wasn't anywhere near it when it was finally hit.

Two guided bombs struck it in a huge flash bang of fire and concrete dust followed by the roar of 10 stories pancaking on top of each other, local residents said. Jihad Husseini, 46, runs the driving school a block away and was sitting in his office when the bombs struck. He said his life was saved because he had drawn the heavy cloth curtains shut on the windows facing the street, preventing him from being hit by a wave of shattered glass. But even so, a chunk of smoldering steel flew through the air, broke through the window and the curtain, and shot past his head and through the wall before coming to rest in his neighbor's home.

But Jihad still refuses to leave.

"Everything is broken, but I can make it better," he says, surrounded by his sons Raed, 20, and Mohammed, 12. "I will not leave. This place is not military, it is not Hezbollah; it was an empty apartment."

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

People throw the phrase "ghost town" around a lot, but Nabatiya, a bombed-out town about 15 miles from the Lebanon-Israel border, deserves it. One expects the spirits of the town's dead, or its refugees, to silently glide out onto its abandoned streets from the ruined buildings that make up much of the town.

Not all of the buildings show bomb damage, but those that don't have metal shutters blown out as if by a terrible wind. And there are no people at all, except for the occasional Hezbollah scout on a motorbike armed only with a two-way radio, keeping an eye on things as Israeli jets and unmanned drones circle overhead.

Overlooking the outskirts of this town, which has a peacetime population of 100,000 or so -- mostly Shiite supporters of Hezbollah and its more secular rival Amal -- is the Ragheh Hareb Hospital, a facility that makes quite clear what side the residents of Nabatiya are on in this conflict.

The hospital's carefully sculpted and trimmed front lawn contains the giant Red Crescent that denotes the Muslim version of the Red Cross. As we approach it, an Israeli missile streaks by, smashing into a school on the opposite hilltop. As we crouch and then run for the shelter of the hospital awning, that giant crescent reassures me until I look at the flagpole. The Lebanese flag and its cedar tree is there -- right next to the flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

It's safe to say that Ragheh Hareb Hospital has an association with Hezbollah. And the staff sports the trimmed beards and polite, if somewhat ominous, manner of the group. After young men demand press IDs and do some quick questioning, they allow us to enter.

Dr. Ahmed Tahir recognizes me from a funeral in the nearby village of Dweir. An Israeli bomb dropped on their house killed a Hezbollah cleric and 11 members of his immediate family, mostly children. People in Lebanon are calling it a war crime. Tahir looks exhausted, and our talk is even more tense than the last time.

"Maybe it would be best if the Israelis bombed your car on the road here," he said, with a sharp edge. "If you were killed, maybe the public outcry would be so bad in America that the Jews would be forced to stop these attacks."

When I volunteered that the Bush administration cared little for journalists, let alone ones who reported from Hezbollah territory, he shrugged. "Maybe if it was an American bomb used by the Israelis that killed an American journalist, they would stop this horror," he said.

The handful of people in the town include some from Hezbollah's political wing, as well as volunteers keeping an eye on things while the residents are gone. Off to the side, as we watch the Israelis pummel ridgelines on the outskirts of town, one of the political operatives explains that the fighters never come near the town, reinforcing what other Hezbollah people have told me over the years.

Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered "Hezbollah" installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons -- they did, after all, take over an apartment building against the protests of the landlord, knowing full well it would be bombed -- but for military ones.

"You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon," a Lebanese military intelligence official, now retired, once told me. "They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They're completely afraid of collaborators. They know this is what breaks the Palestinians -- no discipline and too much showing off."

Perhaps once a year, Hezbollah will hold a military parade in the south, in which its weapons and fighters appear. Media access to these parades is tightly limited and controlled. Unlike the fighters in the half dozen other countries where I have covered insurgencies, Hezbollah fighters do not like to show off for the cameras. In Iraq, with some risk taking, you can meet with and even watch the resistance guys in action. (At least you could during my last time there.) In Afghanistan, you can lunch with Taliban fighters if you're willing to walk a day or so in the mountains. In Gaza and the West Bank, the Fatah or Hamas fighter is almost ubiquitous with his mask, gun and sloganeering to convince the Western journalist of the justice of his cause.

The Hezbollah guys, on the other hand, know that letting their fighters near outsiders of any kind -- journalists or Lebanese, even Hezbollah supporters -- is stupid. In three trips over the last week to the south, where I came near enough to the fighting to hear Israeli artillery, and not just airstrikes, I saw exactly no fighters. Guys with radios with the look of Hezbollah always found me. But no fighters on corners, no invitations to watch them shoot rockets at the Zionist enemy, nothing that can be used to track them.

Even before the war, on many of my trips to the south, the Lebanese army, or the ubiquitous guy on a motorbike with a radio, would halt my trip and send me over to Tyre to get permission from a Hezbollah official before I could proceed, usually with strict limits on where I could go.

Every other journalist I know who has covered Hezbollah has had the same experience. A fellow journalist, a Lebanese who has covered them for two decades, knows only one military guy who will admit it, and he never talks or grants interviews. All he will say is, "I'll be gone for a few months for training. I'll call when I'm back." Presumably his friends and neighbors may suspect something, but no one says anything.

Hezbollah's political members say they have little or no access to the workings of the fighters. This seems to be largely true: While they obviously hear and know more than the outside world, the firewall is strong.

Israel, however, has chosen to treat the political members of Hezbollah as if they were fighters. And by targeting the civilian wing of the group, which supplies much of the humanitarian aid and social protection for the poorest people in the south, they are targeting civilians.

Earlier in the week, I stood next to a giant crater that had smashed through the highway between Tyre and Sidon -- the only route of escape for most of the people in the far south. Overhead, Israeli fighters and drones circled above the city and its outlying areas and regular blasts of bombs and naval artillery could be heard.

The crater served as a nice place to check up on the refugees, who were forced by the crater to slow down long enough to be asked questions. They barely stopped, their faces wrenched in near panic. The main wave of refugees out of the south had come the previous two days, so these were the hard-luck cases, the people who had been really close to the fighting and who needed two days just to get to Tyre, or who had had to make the tough decision whether to flee or stay put, with neither choice looking good.

The roads in the south are full of the cars of people who chose wrong -- burned-out chassis, broken glass, some cars driven straight into posts or ditches. Other seem to have broken down or run out of gas on the long dirt detours around the blown-out highway and bridge network the Israeli air force had spent days methodically destroying even as it warned people to flee.

One man, slowing his car around the crater, almost screams, "There is nothing left. This country is not for us." His brief pause immediately draws horns and impatient yells from the people in the cars behind him. They pass the crater but within two minutes a large explosion behind us, north, in the direction of Sidon, rocks us.

As we drive south toward Tyre, we soon pass a new series of scars on the highway: shrapnel, hubcaps and broken glass. A car that had been maybe five minutes ahead of us was hit by an Israeli shell. Three of its passengers were wounded, and it was heading north to the Hammound hospital at Sidon. We turned around because of the attack and followed the car to Sidon. Those unhurt staked out the parking lot of the hospital, looking for the Western journalists they were convinced had called in the strike. Luckily my Iraqi fixer smelled trouble and we got out of there. Probably nothing would have happened -- mostly they were just freaked-out country people who didn't like the coincidence of an Israeli attack and a car full of journalists driving past.

So the analysts talking on cable news about Hezbollah "hiding within the civilian population" clearly have spent little time if any in the south Lebanon war zone and don't know what they're talking about. Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion.

And the civilians? They see themselves as targeted regardless of their affiliation. They are enraged at Israel and at the United States, the only two countries on earth not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Lebanese of all persuasions think the United States and Israel believe that Lebanese lives are cheaper than Israeli ones. And many are now saying that they want to fight.



-- By Mitch Prothero

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 12:52 AM
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Sounds plausible, EXCEPT:

If the military wing of Hezbollah maintains such isolation from the civilian population, how do they recruit new fighters? And while they can fire the short range Katushya (sp?) rockets and get out of sight quickly, that's reportedly not the case with the longer range variety they've fired many of into Haifa.

Which need 2B set up first, risking being spotted by Israeli reconnaisance planes. And thereby letting the Israelis @ least pinpoint the tunnel entrances, etc. used by the Hezbollah fighters who are (according to that article) like shadows in the night. Unless they have cloaking devices like on Star Trek, of course.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by *JR*
If the military wing of Hezbollah maintains such isolation from the civilian population, how do they recruit new fighters?
Well, at the moment, the Israelis are doing that recruiting FOR them. Every male who loses a father, mother, sister, brother or child to Israel bombs is a potential recruit with very personal motivation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *JR*
And while they can fire the short range Katushya (sp?) rockets and get out of sight quickly, that's reportedly not the case with the longer range variety they've fired many of into Haifa.
Which has nothing to do with whether or not Hezbollah is hiding among civilians. But let's deal with that point anyway.
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Which need 2B set up first, risking being spotted by Israeli reconnaisance planes. And thereby letting the Israelis @ least pinpoint the tunnel entrances, etc.
Think about it from a sheerly military point of view. The issue is how fast you can break down, the launcher and carry it away. Setup is irrelevant, unless you do it in the open. Setup in a garage, or behind some kind of concealment. Fire. Jump in vehicle and drive. Fifteen seconds after you fire, you're out of the blast radius of any counterstrike. And if you have the brains God gave little white mice, you move to a totally different location before firing again.

The article makes a very good point. If the civilians know who and where the fighters are, somebody would rat them out. This is very old logic. In the USA, in the days of slavery, the truism ran that you didn't recruit house slaves into plans for revolt or escape. They had a lot more to lose than field slaves, and it only took one out of a hundred to betray everyone.

I would like to see a link to a source for this article before considering it valid, but it's logic is spot on. Hezbollah has done a much better job of keeping it's own casualties down, and inflicting casualties on the Israelis, than is typical in these IDF vs militia fights. And the missiles are still falling at the rate of 80 to 90 per day they were two weeks ago.

This article provides an explanation that jibes with the facts being reported from the battlefields. That doesn't mean it true, but it's better than a lot of what we're hearing, in terms of plausibility.

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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 04:16 AM
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Mitch Prothero seems to be legit.

The link to the article above was easy to locate.

I am interested in discussing this article, and what it may or may not mean. It questions one of the 'truisms' as reported in American and Israeli media, but the guy IS reporting from the ground, and a fast perusal of his previous articles reveal no overt anti-Israel bias.

What does it mean to an Israeli if Hezbollah fighters (note my emphasis) are NOT hiding among the civilian population?

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Last edited by Volcana; Jul 31st, 2006 at 04:21 AM.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 05:10 AM
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Seems that if they "aren't hiding amongst civilians", which is obviously not the case; since Hezbollah, (like Hamas in Palestine) is very popular in the "So Leb Hood". :retard:

That just means the people getting "caught in the cross-fire" are actually the enemy and the enemy's children and wives and girlfriends.

Which makes them even more legit targets.

So methinks, you spin doctors are better off following conventional wisdom which currently states that Israel is hitting "civilians" who are unfortunate enough to be located in the terror area.


Sometimes you "outsmart yourselves" in an effort to villify
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwifan
Seems that if they "aren't hiding amongst civilians", which is obviously not the case; since Hezbollah, (like Hamas in Palestine) is very popular in the "So Leb Hood". :retard:

That just means the people getting "caught in the cross-fire" are actually the enemy and the enemy's children and wives and girlfriends.

Which makes them even more legit targets.

So methinks, you spin doctors are better off following conventional wisdom which currently states that Israel is hitting "civilians" who are unfortunate enough to be located in the terror area.
Sometimes you "outsmart yourselves" in an effort to villify
Seems that if they "aren't hiding amongst civilians", which is obviously not the case; since the IDF, (like Hamas in Palestine the USA in Iraq) is very popular in the "So Isreali Hood". :retard:

That just means the people getting "caught in the cross-fire" being hit by Hezbollah rockets are actually the enemy and the enemy's children and wives and girlfriends.

Which makes them even more legit targets.

So methinks, you spin doctors are better off following conventional wisdom which currently states that Israel Hezbollah is hitting "civilians" who are unfortunate enough to be located in the terror area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwifan
Sometimes you "outsmart yourselves" in an effort to villify
And sometimes, people just have a horribly clear-eyed, and accurate, take on a situation.

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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
Seems that if they "aren't hiding amongst civilians", which is obviously not the case; since the IDF, (like Hamas in Palestine the USA in Iraq) is very popular in the "So Isreali Hood". :retard:

That just means the people getting "caught in the cross-fire" being hit by Hezbollah rockets are actually the enemy and the enemy's children and wives and girlfriends.

Which makes them even more legit targets.

So methinks, you spin doctors are better off following conventional wisdom which currently states that Israel Hezbollah is hitting "civilians" who are unfortunate enough to be located in the terror area.


And sometimes, people just have a horribly clear-eyed, and accurate, take on a situation.
Cute editing.

But I understand why Hezz does what they do and why Israel do what they do...

...I also understand that it only ends when one side is finished/as in destroyed.

Lucky for Israel; that they will be the winners (Because they are the Chosen Ones - we chose them ).

Sucks to be Lebonese because they, for the most part, aren't even a factor in the shit that's happening to them.

They're really only guilty of being punked into being Hezz's host/bitch.

Israel is taking out Hezz, so it sucks to be the host.

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As far as Iraq...Civil War is what they want...we just freed them to fulfill their dreams. Let them sort out what kind of govt. they really want and if we approve...it stays in power.

The only tragedy is that US Troops shouldn't even be on the ground in Iraq anymore.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwifan
Cute editing.
Thank you. But it's easy when it's handed to you on a silver platter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwifan
But I understand why Hezz does what they do and why Israel do what they do...

...I also understand that it only ends when one side is finished/as in destroyed.

Lucky for Israel; that they will be the winners
Actually, I think the current course is an inevitable loss for Israel. A couple of 'lost' Russian warheads going off in downtown Tel Aviv? Isreal would die. It would just be a question of how much of the world they took with them.

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
Thank you. But it's easy when it's handed to you on a silver platter.
Actually, I think the current course is an inevitable loss for Israel. A couple of 'lost' Russian warheads going off in downtown Tel Aviv? Isreal would die. It would just be a question of how much of the world they took with them.
We agree on the facts.

Those lost Russian warheads exist, right now and its only a matter of time...

...which is why whipping ass now is preferred to sitting back and hoping for the best.

The current ass whipping isn't going to make things worse, since last time I checked wiping Israel off the map was already in the game plan.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwifan
We agree on the facts.

Those lost Russian warheads exist, right now and its only a matter of time...

...which is why whipping ass now is preferred to sitting back and hoping for the best.

The current ass whipping isn't going to make things worse, since last time I checked wiping Israel off the map was already in the game plan.
The 'current ass whipping' is resulting in approximately a one-to-one ratio of Hezbollah to IDF deaths. Not an 'ass-whipping' by any measure. The IDF is managing to kill a LOT of Lebanesea civilians. Is that what you meant by 'ass-whipping'? Murdering defenseless civilians? If so, I disagree. 'sitting back and hoping for the best' is a far BETTER policy.

You're cheering the IDF's current operation. It's a tragedy. Do you really trink Israel comes out of this with fewer enemies, as opposed to more?

Current IDF policy is guaranteeing that warhead strike. Every dead Lebanese cilivian means two or more living Hezbollah fighters from the deceased relatives. Do the math. Maybe 50 dead Hezbollah so far, and 500 dead civilians. And Hezbollah is firing just as many missiles into Israel bow as they were on July 12th.

Okay, explain this 'ass-whipping' to me again.

a) Hezbollah is firing as many missiles as ever into Israel.

b) The IDF is suffering near one-to-one losses, measured in deaths, against Hezbollah

c) The reporting is starting to make the rounds that Hezbollah is NOT, 'hding among civilians'

d) Israel is murdering civilians by the hundreds, and justifying by saying Hezbollah is killing Israelis in the ones.

Do me a favor. Google 'Asymmetrical Warfare' and read through the first five or six links. You're not getting it. All Hezbollah has to do is get to a cease-fire alive and armed. Israel has to wipe out Hezbollah as a military force to win. Given those realities, who wins a shooting war?

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Last edited by Volcana; Jul 31st, 2006 at 07:17 AM.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
Mitch Prothero seems to be legit.

The link to the article above was easy to locate.

I am interested in discussing this article, and what it may or may not mean. It questions one of the 'truisms' as reported in American and Israeli media, but the guy IS reporting from the ground, and a fast perusal of his previous articles reveal no overt anti-Israel bias.

What does it mean to an Israeli if Hezbollah fighters (note my emphasis) are NOT hiding among the civilian population?
Since you believe any article you get I wondered if you could have a minute or two watching the next video. (just in the start of the page there is a screen, click the play button).

You claim that those are innocent, naive civillians.

innocent civillians...

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 07:32 AM
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Since you believe any article you get
Which I don't of course, and if you've actually been readin my posts, you know that. I do however, like to restrict myself to calling true things that have actually been preoven true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nir
I wondered if you could have a minute or two watching the next video.

(just in the start of the page there is a screen, click the play button).

You claim that those are innocent, naive civillians.
Maybe i got the wrong video, but I didn't see any people at all on that video. There was a fair amount of text in a language I couldn't read. There was some in English claiming that the pictures I was seeing were missiles being fired from populated areas, or missile launching trucks driving down roads after firing. Aside from the pictures being long range, and not actually showing what the English-language captions claimed, there were NO PEOPLE AT ALL.

So forgive me, but what has this video to do with civilians? Innocent or otherwise?

This has no comparision to the article in the beginning of the thread. That article said, in essence, 'I'm not seeing what you're reading, so maybe it's not true'. The video I just saw says, in essence, 'we're not showing you anything, but take our word for what it's showing'.

The IDF bombed a Lebanese military based last, then first claimed that they didn't target the base, then claimed that they had seen firetrucks drive into the base. Even allowing the unproven claim that the trucks were misslie launchers, the idea that aiming missiles at a building a truck has driven into on a military based isn't shooting at the base itself is absurd.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 08:14 AM
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Hmmm Volcana ,

Sorry, I missed the part of my posts where I was "cheering" for anyone's death.

And if you really think the ratio is 1 to 1...

...yuo = moran

Just because they're fighting back, it doesn't mean they aren't getting their asses kicked...just check the final results about a month from now.

That's when the story is truly told.

"Project" all you like, that is what you usually do.

Try reading people's posts for a change, oh pontificator.

Some people actually know more than you about some things, I know that's shocking to you but...

...tis true.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
Which I don't of course, and if you've actually been readin my posts, you know that. I do however, like to restrict myself to calling true things that have actually been preoven true.
Maybe i got the wrong video, but I didn't see any people at all on that video. There was a fair amount of text in a language I couldn't read. There was some in English claiming that the pictures I was seeing were missiles being fired from populated areas, or missile launching trucks driving down roads after firing. Aside from the pictures being long range, and not actually showing what the English-language captions claimed, there were NO PEOPLE AT ALL.

So forgive me, but what has this video to do with civilians? Innocent or otherwise?

This has no comparision to the article in the beginning of the thread. That article said, in essence, 'I'm not seeing what you're reading, so maybe it's not true'. The video I just saw says, in essence, 'we're not showing you anything, but take our word for what it's showing'.

The IDF bombed a Lebanese military based last, then first claimed that they didn't target the base, then claimed that they had seen firetrucks drive into the base. Even allowing the unproven claim that the trucks were misslie launchers, the idea that aiming missiles at a building a truck has driven into on a military based isn't shooting at the base itself is absurd.
In the video you can see how the transmissions are being entered into houses of civillians.

You can also see how Hezbollah is firing rockets from civillians population, so saying that they don't mingle with civillians is pure ignorance.

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old Jul 31st, 2006, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwifan
Cute editing.

But I understand why Hezz does what they do and why Israel do what they do...

...I also understand that it only ends when one side is finished/as in destroyed.
Lucky for Israel; that they will be the winners (Because they are the Chosen Ones - we chose them ).

Sucks to be Lebonese because they, for the most part, aren't even a factor in the shit that's happening to them.

They're really only guilty of being punked into being Hezz's host/bitch.

Israel is taking out Hezz, so it sucks to be the host.

______________________________
As far as Iraq...Civil War is what they want...we just freed them to fulfill their dreams. Let them sort out what kind of govt. they really want and if we approve...it stays in power.

The only tragedy is that US Troops shouldn't even be on the ground in Iraq anymore.
Or both!

L'important, c'est la rose...
-Ph51- is offline  
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