It Happened Again: Fatal Police Shooting - TennisForum.com

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post #1 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
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It Happened Again: Fatal Police Shooting

We discussed this earlier following the shooting of an airline passenger.
At the time, arguments justifying the shooting suggested the marshal did not have time to react and make judgement to shoot to kill or not to kill.

This time, the man had a knife, but surrounded by many policemen with guns blazing. What did they do, they shoot to kill.

Could they have aimed at less fatal area to incapacitate the guy.
From all accounts(video included), the police were close enough to him to aim at a knee, or other non-lethal body part.
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Source: http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2415132.html

New Orleans Police Shoot, Kill Man

By BRETT MARTEL , 12.27.2005, 05:13 AM

The city's embattled police department will have another internal investigation to face after a swarm of converging officers gunned down a man brandishing a knife.

A police spokesman said the officers who fired on the man Monday will be reassigned pending the outcome of the probe, but he defended their response, saying at least one officer's life was in danger just prior to the barrage of gunfire.

"You have a subject who's lunging at them with a knife... swinging wildly at them and they're fearing for their life," said Officer David Adams, a police spokesman. "They had no other choice but to resort to lethal force."

Officers repeatedly asked the man to drop the knife and used pepper spray to try to subdue him, but he used a cloth to cover his face and was still able to walk toward an officer and threaten him, authorities said.

"Evidently the pepper spray had no effect," Adams said.

A businessman had called police after a confrontation with the 38-year-old victim in the Lower Garden District west of downtown. The shooting occurred on St. Charles Avenue, an important thoroughfare in the city, famous for its historic green street cars and Mardi Gras parades.

Adams said he did not know how many officers fired shots or how many shots were fired. Witnesses said a half dozen or more shots were fired.

Phin Percy videotaped a portion of the incident from his father's second-story apartment. "The cops kept telling him, 'Lay down! Lay down!' This went on for about three minutes," he said.

Trey Brokaw, a patron at a nearby bar, said he saw the victim with a knife in his hand shortly before the shooting. "I didn't see anyone near him," Brokaw said. "It didn't seem like anyone was going to get hurt to me."

Brokaw said he did not see what happened in the final moments before the shots rang out.

The victim's name was not released because his family had not been notified.

It was the first shooting of any kind involving a New Orleans officer since the city was officially reopened after Hurricane Katrina damaged many neighborhoods and displaced tens of thousands of residents nearly four months ago, Adams said.

Since the storm, the police department has struggled to rebuild its ranks and address questions about officers' conduct.

Hundreds of police left the city without permission in the days after the storm. There were also allegations of theft and looting by officers, and the videotaped beating of a retired teacher by police in the French Quarter. The police chief resigned a month after the storm.

Two of the officers accused of the beating were fired; a third was suspended for 120 days. All three are scheduled to be tried next month. The allegations of looting and theft are being investigated.



Copyright 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
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post #2 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 02:46 AM
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Fuckin' cops.
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post #3 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 02:51 AM
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...but in all sincerity, police are trained to eliminate the threat, not just wound it. It's Police Training 101. In a kill or be killed world, it's survival of the fittest. Obviously nobody wants to be under question for a shooting, a cop gets automatic time off work and mandatory psych consults, plus the shoot; whether deemed good or bad, is always and forever in the officers file. No matter what that officer does, his involvement in a shooting can be brought up at anytime. It's not as if all cops are jaded bigots who'd rather just be trigger happy and kill anything that moves. Sure there's a few bad apples, but to just have the assumption that all police are gun toting, piston-firing, anger-proporting murderers is a bit off-based.

That's just my personal experience though, since I've worked in this field for 11 years.
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post #4 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athenaeum
...but in all sincerity, police are trained to eliminate the threat, not just wound it. It's Police Training 101. In a kill or be killed world, it's survival of the fittest. Obviously nobody wants to be under question for a shooting, a cop gets automatic time off work and mandatory psych consults, plus the shoot; whether deemed good or bad, is always and forever in the officers file. No matter what that officer does, his involvement in a shooting can be brought up at anytime. It's not as if all cops are jaded bigots who'd rather just be trigger happy and kill anything that moves. Sure there's a few bad apples, but to just have the assumption that all police are gun toting, piston-firing, anger-proporting murderers is a bit off-based.

That's just my personal experience though, since I've worked in this field for 11 years.
I agree that police is trained to eliminate the threat.
But to that end, do they always have to shoot to kill?
Couldn't they eliminate the threat by incapaciatting the guy? Remember, he did not have a gun, he had knife. There were about seven policemen, with gun blazing.
Is there any consideration to simply incapacitate the suspect and not kill him/her? From the look of this particular incident, they completely surroundered the guy, they were within 10-15 feet of him.
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post #5 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:06 AM
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I just wish thet had a tazor gun or something less lethal. Coudln't they have shot him in the leg? They are trained with guns so it's not like they couldn't aim for both legs. Take his legs out and that man isn't going to stab anyone. It's a high pressure situation to say the least. From some of the eye witness accounts it didn't seem like lethal force was warrented.

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post #6 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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Since you've worked in the field for 11 years, why did not they use non-lethal weapon to eliminate the threat?

Tazor guns, pepper spray, etc..

Is it true that police in the nation are trained to shoot in the body mass (middle section), not the extremities?
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post #7 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:08 AM
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Eliminating the threat is just that, in the literal sense. I'm sure based on standard operating procedures that the guy was given a plethora of chances to remove himself from the situation by complying with the orders of the officers. Finally, based on either of a verbal command (such as the officer saying "Is there anything I can say or do to make you feel differently......" {on the word do, the police are trained to arm themselves to take some type of action} or by the offender making an offensive move, suitable action needed to be taken.

Law enforcement agencies don't send warning shots off with their guns, nor do they shoot you in the big toe to slow you down. If the situation is that escalated to where the perceived threat needs to be retorted with firearms, the officers are always taught that it's them or the bad guy that gets to see their family at the end of the day... would you rather it be him or you? So by this training they make sure the threat is expunged and that no future threats can be perpetrated by the offender. A shot to the core will incapacitate or more the offender, and that's the training that all officers receive at the academy.
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post #8 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solitaire
I just wish thet had a tazor gun or something less lethal. Coudln't they have shot him in the leg? They are trained with guns so it's not like they couldn't aim for both legs. Take his legs out and that man isn't going to stab anyone. It's a high pressure situation to say the least. From some of the eye witness accounts it didn't seem like lethal force was warrented.
I just saw an amateur video, the man was wielding a knife, but not charging at anybody. He was backing away from the police facing them, and the police was
following him form 3 quarter circle around him.
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post #9 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:12 AM
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We know *now* that he *only* had a knife. Lets say he got shot in the toe and fell to the ground. The cops would have swarmed him to cuff him... who's to say at that point without all the knowledge that the guy wasn't sitting on some C4 or a gun or ....

Any weapon that can inflict death is handled the same way. The officers are trained to recognize the threat and respond in kind.

So since a knife can kill, they had to 'even the playing field' so to speak and make sure they could inflict the same damage or greater if the need arose.

A PR24, asp, pepper spray, etc could have been used but the perceived threat was that of eminent death.
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post #10 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:15 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athenaeum
Eliminating the threat is just that, in the literal sense. I'm sure based on standard operating procedures that the guy was given a plethora of chances to remove himself from the situation by complying with the orders of the officers. Finally, based on either of a verbal command (such as the officer saying "Is there anything I can say or do to make you feel differently......" {on the word do, the police are trained to arm themselves to take some type of action} or by the offender making an offensive move, suitable action needed to be taken.

Law enforcement agencies don't send warning shots off with their guns, nor do they shoot you in the big toe to slow you down. If the situation is that escalated to where the perceived threat needs to be retorted with firearms, the officers are always taught that it's them or the bad guy that gets to see their family at the end of the day... would you rather it be him or you? So by this training they make sure the threat is expunged and that no future threats can be perpetrated by the offender. A shot to the core will incapacitate or more the offender, and that's the training that all officers receive at the academy.
Is there judgement made to use alternative means or everybody is wedded to the operating procedures regardless of the situations and circumstances.
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post #11 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79
Is there judgement made to use alternative means or everybody is wedded to the operating procedures regardless of the situations and circumstances.
The threat level is assessed, and then the training just kicks in. Of course if the guy had a water balloon, this wouldn't have happened. But a knife = kill in the officers minds and ... well, at the end of the day the officer wanted to see his family. It's an us versus them type life for the cops.

And since everything everything everything a cop does is heavily scrutinized by the mass populous, cops are trained that they're always being watched and judged. So to jump from talking to shooting... well there had to be something going on there or some other factors there were involved that we don't know about.

Of course, I only speak in general terms, and I do know that there are plenty of rogue cops out there. So for this specific incident I can't speak of exactities, just what the SOP and training dictates.
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post #12 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athenaeum
We know *now* that he *only* had a knife. Lets say he got shot in the toe and fell to the ground. The cops would have swarmed him to cuff him... who's to say at that point without all the knowledge that the guy wasn't sitting on some C4 or a gun or ....

Any weapon that can inflict death is handled the same way. The officers are trained to recognize the threat and respond in kind.

So since a knife can kill, they had to 'even the playing field' so to speak and make sure they could inflict the same damage or greater if the need arose.

A PR24, asp, pepper spray, etc could have been used but the perceived threat was that of eminent death.
From what you are saying, there no room for flexibility. A knife toting or gun toting individuals are treeated the same. You would agree that a knife has different reach than a gun.

I do not think there a threat of eminent death. The police had this gun surrounded, wih guns drawn point at him.
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post #13 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:19 AM
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Haha shoot first ask questions later. Many people have been shot because the police thought they had a weapon and in he end they had nothing. I remember one guy was shot in New York I believe because he was holding a wallet. I say shoot him in the Big Toe get his ass to the ground and pepper spray the sh*t out of him, while u have back up cover you.

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post #14 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79
From what you are saying, there no room for flexibility. A knife toting or gun toting individuals are treeated the same. You would agree that a knife has different reach than a gun.

I do not think there a threat of eminent death. The police had this gun surrounded, wih guns drawn point at him.
Knifes can inflict death. There is no wiggle room in terms of "Oh, let's see... he's 16 feet away he can't kill me". A knife = a knife = possibility exists of death.

Proximity does play a small role, but since they were all close that's a moot point. Was this in a public area or were there others around? That makes a HUGE difference on the timeline of eliminating the threat.
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post #15 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 2005, 03:26 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athenaeum
The threat level is assessed, and then the training just kicks in. Of course if the guy had a water balloon, this wouldn't have happened. But a knife = kill in the officers minds and ... well, at the end of the day the officer wanted to see his family. It's an us versus them type life for the cops..
This is really rigid and inflexible. It does not leave room for discretion and adaptive judgment. Also it is not healthy for society to have a police with US vs. THEM mentality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athenaeum
And since everything everything everything a cop does is heavily scrutinized by the mass populous, cops are trained that they're always being watched and judged. So to jump from talking to shooting... well there had to be something going on there or some other factors there were involved that we don't know about.

Of course, I only speak in general terms, and I do know that there are plenty of rogue cops out there. So for this specific incident I can't speak of exactities, just what the SOP and training dictates.
From my impression as a layman, there does not seem to be imminent danger, And other police trainers have echoed the same sentiment.
But they added, they did not know all the circumstances. Form what was shown on TV, the situation did not seem to be out of control.

Last edited by tennislover22; Dec 28th, 2005 at 03:21 PM.
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