Study Shows How Deeply Black Men Face Discrimination In Hiring - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Talking Study Shows How Deeply Black Men Face Discrimination In Hiring

http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Hirin...ng100803a.html

Study Shows How Deeply Black Men Face Discrimination In Hiring

By Tannette Johnson-Elie
JSOnline - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel


October 8, 2003

Yet another study finds that racial discrimination is alive and well in the hiring process, and it's keeping black men in metro Milwaukee on the unemployment rolls.

The study offers this fictional scenario:

A young, white, male high school graduate with a felony conviction applies in person for entry level jobs as a driver, a dishwasher, a laborer, warehouse worker and production worker that are advertised in the newspaper and admits to employers that he served 18 months in prison for possession of cocaine with intent to sell.

A young black man with similar education, work history and style of presentation, but with no criminal record, applies for the same jobs.

Who do you think is more likely to be called back?

If you picked the white man with the felony conviction, you guessed right.

This study offers evidence that discrimination remains a major factor in the economic lives of black men, and highlights the fear and misunderstanding of black males that permeate the local job market.

Devah Pager, a sociologist at Northwestern University in Evanston, Ill., sent equally matched pairs of testers - two black and two white - to apply for low-skilled jobs at 350 places of employment in the Milwaukee area and found that white ex-offenders were more likely to be called back for an interview than black applicants who had no criminal record.

Students test employers

In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants. Even though the results were strikingly close, black men without criminal records were called back only 14% of the time, while whites with criminal records were called back 17% of the time.

The study, titled "The Mark of a Criminal Record," was conducted in Milwaukee between June and December 2001, and the results were released last month.

"It shows there's a great deal of work that has to be done in the education of employers and working on attitudes," says Julia Taylor, president of the Greater Milwaukee Committee. "This type of racial disparity in employment practices really impacts us as a region. It impacts our work force, and it really impacts how the inner-city moves forward."

Pager chose Milwaukee for her experiment because it is representative of most large metropolitan areas in its size, racial demographics and industrial base, she says.

The study's findings would surprise few African-Americans in this city, who know from experience that this kind of discrimination exists in the job market. Research shows that white Americans, however, have been led to think that direct, racial discrimination of this nature has become less of a problem in our society.

It was even surprising to Pager, a young white woman.

"I expected that there would be an effect of race. I thought the effect of a criminal record would swamp other effects," Pager says. "That assumption was clearly wrong. It really suggests that stereotypes and assumptions about black males are very much a factor in hiring decisions."

Facing tougher odds

The study demonstrates the increased odds black male ex-offenders face in finding employment and successfully reintegrating into the economic mainstream, says Lenard Wells, chairman of the Milwaukee Parole Commission and a former Milwaukee police officer.

"It's as if there's a concerted effort to keep black men from getting employment, to keep them oppressed," says Wells, former president of the League of Martin, an organization of black Milwaukee police officers.

"We say we want to reintegrate individuals into the community. We say that we want to do something about unemployment in the black community, yet we want to pretend that it's a criminal record that prevents blacks from getting jobs. It's blatant, undisputed, racism," he says.

Combine the effects of race and a criminal record, and the problem becomes worse. For instance, only 5% of black men with criminal records received callbacks from employers, the study found.

White men without criminal records fared the best in the Milwaukee-area job market, with 34% receiving callbacks from employers.

Keep in mind that it's illegal to discriminate against applicants with criminal records unless the circumstances of the crime correspond closely to the requirements of the job, says Phoebe Weaver Williams, an associate professor of law at Marquette University who specializes in employment discrimination.

"What's frustrating is that, after so many years of having laws in place, the laws haven't corrected the problem," Weaver Williams says.

Clearly, the study's findings demonstrate that a criminal record closes doors on employment.

Still, employers are averse to taking risks on black applicants, whom they perceive to have criminal tendencies, the study says. For example, black testers were more likely to be asked by employers whether they had any convictions, yet none of the white testers were asked about their criminal histories up front.

Image problems

A couple of factors that work against young black men is their portrayal in the media as gangsters, thugs and rappers on the fringes of society, and the fact that more black men are going to prison than college, according to a report by the U.S. Justice Department.

The sad reality is that the majority of those inmates will be released back into communities where they have little opportunity to obtain legitimate work. Research shows that one of the factors for recidivism is employment.

Black felons face a hostile job market in Milwaukee, says Wendell Hruska, associate director of Project Return, a Milwaukee agency that helps felons and people convicted of misdemeanors find employment.

"Discrimination is very much a problem. That's what we've been hearing from our clients," Hruska says. "A lot of people get discouraged. Unfortunately, many of them give up. You really can't blame people when you've been out there for months putting in applications and you hear nothing back."

This research helps us measure the degree of discrimination that exists in the hiring process.

But the question remains: How do we attack a problem that so affects the economic lives of black men in Milwaukee, where many employers still make hiring decisions colored by fear and misunderstanding?

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/biz2biz/oct03/

The spoke about this on the Howard Stern show today...no one seemed that shocked...they just thought it was funny...

And you wonder why we need Affirmative Action???
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post #2 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 06:36 PM
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This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action"
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post #3 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -SMM-
This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action"


Typical of someone who wants to believe that discrimination doesn't exists for blacks, but does for everyone else who isn't black.

What the article is pointing out is that if you are a convicted felon, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HIRED FOR CERTAIN JOBS. The fact that a white person would be hired for a certain position when he is a convicted felon over a black man who isn't is blatant discrimination, but not surprising.
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post #4 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -SMM-
This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action"
"In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants."

Damn, you rushed to your oppressor's defense.

You got issues son.
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post #5 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwifan
"In this detailed study, bright, articulate, college students posed as job applicants."

Damn, you rushed to your oppressor's defense.

You got issues son.

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post #6 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 06:58 PM
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I don't doubt the conclusions of the study in the least, but I think someone disclosing a felony conviction and being honest about it upfront in an interview, as opposed to lying about it and the employer only finding out with a background check, is a little different. I mean, when I interview a felon who's upfront about it, I'm thinking, first, if (s)he's upfront about it, maybe I should give the con a second chance. But more important, I'm figuring they're almost completely unemployable, so I can offer them like a total shit salary and treat them like dirt and they won't/can't leave. I distrust every employee like they were a felon anyway, so it's not like I have to be any more vigilant if I hire a felon. But that's just me.

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http://www.tennisforum.com/showthrea...17447&page=324
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post #7 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -SMM-
This is leaving a HUGE part out. What about presentation? How you present yourself is key. I'm not arguing that discrimination does occur, especially at that level, but if you act like one of lower class AND don't look like the interviewer, of course you have lower chances of getting called back.

And that goes BOTH ways. Don't for a second don't believe a black interviewer wouldn't put a black man higher on the list for the exact same reason.

And please, don't get my started with "affirmative action"
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?

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post #8 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 07:22 PM
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The true diamond in the rough to me is a white collar person who's stolen money from a previous employer, whether there's an actual conviction or not. That person is TOTALLY not employable unless they're digging ditches. So I can filll a $50K-$60K a year job with one of them any pay them $25K, and they'll take it because it's that or digging ditches. And they'll never leave. You work them around the clock and on weekends, they'll take it and they'll take it and they'll take it. Because they don't have a choice. There are enough controls so that they can't steal when they're working for me either. It's not nice, but I didn't steal the money either.

There's really so much that goes into filling a position with just the right person!

Whitney Houston and her receipts:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthrea...17447&page=324
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post #9 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 07:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ys
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?
You are beyond ignorant. Did you even read the article? The applicants were college kids who are very well educated.

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post #10 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ys
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?

You for being ignorant. (not surprising, considering you are not an American)

Maybe where you live, which I would guess is not around a lot of educated black people, the latter image is typical.. For those of us who are black and live around of a mixture of blakcs, the first example is typical.
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post #11 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ys
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?
this statement is very telling of the author

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post #12 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 07:31 PM
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This study didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know. You can rationalize it all you want, but the study doesn't like. Speaking of Affirmative Action White Americans have benefited from defacto Affirmative Action for years so don't get me started.
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post #13 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 07:33 PM
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I interview a lot of people. I don't notice any appearance/presentation differences as far as Black v. white people interviewing. There are people who come to an interview too casually dressed, but that's about the worst of it. Oh, and that woman who showed up with a tongue stud for a professional position. That's my all-time favorite. She was really the perfect candidate in every way, but you have to question the judgment of someone who shows up with a great big tongue stud.

Whitney Houston and her receipts:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthrea...17447&page=324
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post #14 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 08:08 PM
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Blatant Racism!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ys
I agree.. Presentation is the key in many cases. I remember at my previous work a couple of black kids were interviewed.. One of them, looking for R&D engineering position, slick and intelligent, MIT graduate, came to the interview in a good suit, tie. The other one was looking for a tester position, and came looking like those "cool" black kids are supposed to look. With earring, sacky pants, audioplayer visible in his bag. The company has serious customers, often coming in to visit us. Image is important. The first guy was hired. The second one was not even considered. The first type is rarity among black kids. The second type is typical. Who is to blame?
-----------------------------

This is a blatant racist argument. This is the kind of excuse people come up with all the time to hide behind their racist actions, attitudes, words and thoughts. Blame it all on how their clothes fit or the hair styles they wear. You didn't look a certain way so I won't hire you! Mind you it is not because you are black it is only because you wore jeans or braids while right beside you is the white person I will hire who looks ten times worst than you. Mind you he is white so I will overlook his clothes....and his criminal record. Blatant racism..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I see you why so many negative comments on this board are dedicated to Venus and Serena...
Jeez.. don't you think it is time for you all to stop and get a conscience!
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post #15 of 110 (permalink) Old Jun 17th, 2005, 08:18 PM
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We sure do need Affirmative Action back because as you can see...everybody dont abide by their "Equal Opportunity" rule they CLAIM they have for their company. Black folk go through this all the time. Yeah some of us eventually get the job we want, but we have to be turned down or beated by somebody of another race a few times b4 we get it. This happens day in and day out for us...I believe a white male is the highest pick over race, and sex over a female. Women are not even paid as much as they should be and experience the same discrimination. Believe or not..but this is a white mans world when it comes to money.

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