Is it possible to have 'free' elections in an occupied country? - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 06:00 AM Thread Starter
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Is it possible to have 'free' elections in an occupied country?

In considering Iraq, I think partucularly of the example of Afghanistan. When the Soviets invaded, it was to fight virtually the same enemy the United States invaded to fight. We (the USA) called the elections the Soviets held a sham, but called the elections WE held, 'free'.

Certainly these ARE elections, as near as I can tell. But when your country is conquered and occupied, and those occupying forces are out in force at every polling station, it's difficult to take the use of the word 'free' seriously. Potential opposition political figures are being jailed by the hundreds. People are to be searched and in some cases arrested at poliing stations. I do understand people's politics don't always agree with mine, but, just for laughs, assume a rational argument might sway me.

What, OTHER THAN, a belief in the ultimate good will of the American forces, is the evidence that these ARE 'free' elections, and not elections held to put a puppet government in place? Certainly historically, when countries who opposed us did similiar things, we discounted the legitemacy of the elected governements.

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post #2 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 06:16 AM
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I think being realistic here, the elections will be freer now than if the US wernt there, it for my opinion comes down to a simple equation, the insergents/terrorists who are ultimately fighting for personal rule for one sheikh, group or another have no qualms now about killing many civilians to scare them of voting for anyone else (Since thursay the number of dead Iraqi civilians murdered by terrorists stands at 48) and I think ive the elections the US can give the Iraqi voters a sense of security which they otherwise might be intimidated into voting in someone who holds a gun to their head (The threats etc by the terror groups suggest this).
So, while we wont see a strongly anti american government sworn in (The ones who are are either neo-sadams or racist groups possesed on opressing the Sh'ote or the Sunni or the Kurd etc and i honestly dont belive the majority of Iraqi people want another Sadam or extremist regime which they have had in one way or another since day one) we will I believe see the freest government democraticaly elected as possible.
US presence + Terrorist threats = Sense of freedom of vote for Iraqi people, thus a more free and fair election.

I will not speculate on to whether or not the results will not be tampered with/ molested by EITHER Americans or Terrorists/ Miscl Elements as nothing suggests this is happening yet-the votes havnt been cast so we are not psycic.
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post #3 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
In considering Iraq, I think partucularly of the example of Afghanistan. When the Soviets invaded, it was to fight virtually the same enemy the United States invaded to fight. We (the USA) called the elections the Soviets held a sham, but called the elections WE held, 'free'.

Certainly these ARE elections, as near as I can tell. But when your country is conquered and occupied, and those occupying forces are out in force at every polling station, it's difficult to take the use of the word 'free' seriously. Potential opposition political figures are being jailed by the hundreds. People are to be searched and in some cases arrested at poliing stations. I do understand people's politics don't always agree with mine, but, just for laughs, assume a rational argument might sway me.

What, OTHER THAN, a belief in the ultimate good will of the American forces, is the evidence that these ARE 'free' elections, and not elections held to put a puppet government in place? Certainly historically, when countries who opposed us did similiar things, we discounted the legitemacy of the elected governements.
Good point Volcana. I think this is depends on the "results". Since there is no modators to see the election is hard to know. Because as the result of the insurgence it's very difficult to campaign so lots of people will likely to vote base on eithic/ religous lines.
Anyway we have to wait and see.

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post #4 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 09:56 AM
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The results will be distorted by many factors. But there are doubtless some senses in which they are "free" or at least a lot more so than in many other places.

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post #5 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 10:03 AM
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LOL, Volcana and I must be surfing on the same brain wave b/c I was going to start a similar thread when I came here.

For what is worth, the words "independence" and "freedom" give me such a hard time because they mean exactly the same thing in my native tongue and are represented by the same word. So, I don't understand how a person/country can be free without independent and independent without being free.
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post #6 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
In considering Iraq, I think partucularly of the example of Afghanistan. When the Soviets invaded, it was to fight virtually the same enemy the United States invaded to fight. We (the USA) called the elections the Soviets held a sham, but called the elections WE held, 'free'.

Certainly these ARE elections, as near as I can tell. But when your country is conquered and occupied, and those occupying forces are out in force at every polling station, it's difficult to take the use of the word 'free' seriously. Potential opposition political figures are being jailed by the hundreds. People are to be searched and in some cases arrested at poliing stations. I do understand people's politics don't always agree with mine, but, just for laughs, assume a rational argument might sway me.

What, OTHER THAN, a belief in the ultimate good will of the American forces, is the evidence that these ARE 'free' elections, and not elections held to put a puppet government in place? Certainly historically, when countries who opposed us did similiar things, we discounted the legitemacy of the elected governements.
If the US wasn't in Iraq, there would probably be NO election. There would either be anarchy, or someone would step up and TAKE the leadership. I suppose those 2 scenarios are better than an election? It ain't perfect, but it's better than any alternative, isn't it?
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post #7 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 03:09 PM
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also contrary to what you may read in the news, the majority of Iraqis want these elections to take place. Majority of shiites (60% of Iraq population) who can vote will do so as will the kurds (20% of total population). The Arab sunnis who previously donainated Iraq consisted only around 20-25% of population.
Also West Germany after WW2 was occupied by U.S., French & British troops. I think that country has done fine.
Japan was occupied by U.S. troops post WW2. I think that nation is democratic.
Even Afghanistan is in better shape now than under the Taliban.
Iraq is in poor shape because many Sunni Arabs outside of Iraq are financing the insurgency. But it's great for the nation to have elections.
Final point. The conservative group of which Ayatollah Sistani is part of will probably be the biggest winner. It will triumph over Allawi's group which has the favors of Washington. So proves that elections were more or less valid.
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post #8 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 04:00 PM
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The fact that there were VERY few international observers makes me worry about how this election will turn out.

If the U.S. backed puppet wins the election, we know it was rigged.


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post #9 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 05:35 PM
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All of this talk about a US puppert is starting to appeal to me. Why cant we just instal a good puppet and everyone will be happy?
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post #10 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 06:29 PM
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This pic actually describes the election. What a big, fat joke. Kinda like the one in Ohio, but with bombs

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post #11 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 07:56 PM
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Well, we gotta give that fucking place to somebody.

I don't want it.

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post #12 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 08:28 PM
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post #13 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 08:30 PM
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Uh oh, more bad news from Iraq... (for America-hating liberals )

Voters were seen singing and dancing at the polling places!


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The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. Ps. 36:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Ps. 14:1, 53:1

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post #14 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathalieDechyFan
The fact that there were VERY few international observers makes me worry about how this election will turn out.

If the U.S. backed puppet wins the election, we know it was rigged.
:retard: you obviously don't know anything about the elections.
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post #15 of 42 (permalink) Old Jan 30th, 2005, 10:52 PM
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From the "high turnout" of the Iraqi's and the enthusiasm of the voters, it's clear to see that this elections means a lot to the Iraqis - atleast to those CNN chose to show. This really makes me question my opinion about Iraq, Iraqis and the U.S. invasion there. May be I was wrong all along. May be Bush was correcto. May be people don't mind to be bombed and shelled by outside force and become colonized as long as they were given the right to vote at the end of an occupation that totally disintegrated their infrastructure, security, sovergnty and dignity.
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