A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2017, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

http://www.vox.com/conversations/201...-jessa-crispin

Crispin has written a polemic titled Why I am Not a Feminist, in which she laments the banality of contemporary feminism. Her thesis is simple enough: At some point, feminism lost its political moorings; it became vapid and toothless in its quest for universality.

[--]


Sean Illing

Your book reads like an indictment of our entire culture. Is that the spirit in which you wrote it?


Jessa Crispin

Thatís right. I think part of it was feminism used to be outside the culture. It used to be a way of criticizing the culture. It used to be a way of imagining a different kind of culture. But somehow in the last 10 years or so, feminism became another part of the culture; it became as vapid and selfish as everything else.

Sean Illing
In many ways ó and this is part of the argument you make in the book ó feminism became apolitical, or divorced from its political roots.


Jessa Crispin
Yeah, and that was really frustrating as someone who became politically conscious through my engagement with feminism. It was disappointing to see feminists abandon their value system for the sake of assimilation and power. It was deeply, deeply disappointing to watch.

Sean Illing
So letís talk about those forgotten values and what replaced them. When you object to new feminism, what are you objecting to exactly?


Jessa Crispin
Iím objecting to feminism as it currently exists in the mainstream. Certainly there is a tradition of radical feminism. There are still people working within radical feminism, but they are not the people who are being allowed to speak for feminism. When anybody is asked to write an op-ed in the New York Times or the Washington Post or whatever, it's not coming from a radical political awareness. It's coming from this very mainstream feminism and they're taking up all of the space.

So the conversation has been co-opted by people who have no idea what they're talking about. It's about personal essays. It's about what's a good television show. It has nothing to do with how do we actually improve the lives of all women, not just women in New York City, not just young, pretty, not just mediagenic women.

Sean Illing
But you go much further than that in the book, right? Itís not just that feminism has been co-opted or defanged ó you say that itís now doing the work of patriarchy.

Jessa Crispin
This idea emerged that if we just put a lot more women in positions of power, somehow that would defeat the patriarchy, not understanding that the patriarchy has nothing to do with men. If women in power behave like men do, that is not a defeat of the patriarchy. That's just patriarchy with women in it. And patriarchy is one of those really dissatisfying words because everybody uses it and there's not a general understanding, a shared understanding of what the word means other than anything that is keeping you down.

Sean Illing
How do you define patriarchy?

Jessa Crispin
My working definition of patriarchy is a society that's structured by hierarchy. So unless that is reformed, unless we reform society so there are no hierarchies, because the hierarchy used to be white, property-owning men at the top of the hierarchy and everybody else in varying positions underneath that, and now it's just money and power. So women can easily attain a high position on the hierarchy, but that's not the end of patriarchy.

Unless we get rid of the hierarchy and stop structuring our society around it, the patriarchy is not defeated.


Sean Illing
It seems to me that youíre making an argument against capitalism as such, or the values that undergird capitalism. If we replace ďpatriarchyĒ with ďcapitalismĒ does your analysis change at all?

Jessa Crispin
No, but this isnít new. Second-wave feminism, even first-wave feminism, noticed that patriarchy was intertwined with capitalism. So there isn't a way of defeating one without the other. And also capitalism is also one of those words, like patriarchy, that everybody uses these days without a full understanding of what the word means. Iím probably guilty of that, too. Some of my philosopher friends say that I occasionally misuse the word, but I try not to.

The point is that patriarchy and capitalism are of the same system. They support one another and one cannot be removed without the other.

[---------- snipped -----------]

"These lifeforms feel such passionate hatreds over matters of custom, God concepts, even - strangely enough - economic systems." - Capt. J Piccard USS Enterprise

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2017, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

Though she makes good points about social structures, I strongly disagree with her assertions equating patriarchy with capitalism. In fact, as have seen many other-than-capitalist societies (socialist, communist, feudal, monarchist) that are as patriarchal as possible her claim seems silly to me. It seems obvious that a people who hold patriarchal values will evidence that in whatever social and economic systems they create.

"These lifeforms feel such passionate hatreds over matters of custom, God concepts, even - strangely enough - economic systems." - Capt. J Piccard USS Enterprise

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2017, 04:11 PM
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Re: A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

Time for a reality check: there's nothing wrong with patriarchy, that's how we created all the wonderful things that made humankind so great; no, unfortunately we don't live in a patriarchal society anymore, which is the root of a lot of the problems we face in the occidental world today.
No need to thank me.

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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2017, 04:25 PM
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Re: A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

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No need to thank me.
Seriously, being thanked is the last thing you should worry about.
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LOL He won't because he's never been to those countries. Italian people - especially Southern Italians - would never go to those cities on vacation. They would go there only for business reasons if necessary. And this guy sounds like those deluded teen-agers that think they know everything. He definitely doesn't sound like a business man that has traveled the world.
He probably read on google search or trip advisor that Istanbul is less expensive than Singapore.
Cool story bro.
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2017, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

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Originally Posted by Iblis View Post
Time for a reality check: there's nothing wrong with patriarchy, that's how we created all the wonderful things that made humankind so great; no, unfortunately we don't live in a patriarchal society anymore, which is the root of a lot of the problems we face in the occidental world today.
No need to thank me.
The saddest thing is that I'm sure you really believe that. Something almost as sad is that you don't seem to realize that you're claiming relativity where there is none. Is humankind great? Compared to what other sentient intellectually developed species? Did the things you like come about because of patriarchy? How would we know when there's no long-term human history outside of it to compare to?

And you also included the humorous: "we don't live in a patriarchal society anymore"

"These lifeforms feel such passionate hatreds over matters of custom, God concepts, even - strangely enough - economic systems." - Capt. J Piccard USS Enterprise

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2017, 05:14 PM
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Re: A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

It was never about patriarchy or not. It was always about certain skills.

Now due the fact that those skills are not needed anymore /not needed now/ we have transitional era when this knowledge is not really popular yet.

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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 2017, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

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It was never about patriarchy or not.
That claim seems nonsensical to me but instead of just bashing it, I'll ask - what is the it that was "never about patriarchy" and what skills are you referring to?

"These lifeforms feel such passionate hatreds over matters of custom, God concepts, even - strangely enough - economic systems." - Capt. J Piccard USS Enterprise

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 2017, 01:10 PM
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Re: A Feminist Makes the Case Against Comtemporary Feminism

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The saddest thing is that I'm sure you really believe that. Something almost as sad is that you don't seem to realize that you're claiming relativity where there is none. Is humankind great? Compared to what other sentient intellectually developed species? Did the things you like come about because of patriarchy? How would we know when there's no long-term human history outside of it to compare to?

And you also included the humorous: "we don't live in a patriarchal society anymore"
I can compare a patriarchal society with a society that isn't patriarchal anymore.
I agree that the "humankind greatness" might refer more to a subjective point of view, but whatever.

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