My Fellow Americans - Have We Truly Sunk This Low? - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 05:44 AM Thread Starter
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My Fellow Americans - Have We Truly Sunk This Low?

This isn't me talking. This is Major General Antonio Taguba. Here's an edited copy of the report the Bush administration was willing to release. The unedited version is reputed to include far worse.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

We rape prisoners as a form or interrogation.

We murder prisoners.

We torture prisoners and then hide them from the Red Cross.

We take people for whom nudity is a highest taboo, and strip them naked for days.

We force people for whom homosexuality is a religious taboo to perform homosexual acts at gunpoint.

And all this is in the limited report the American government was willing to make public.

We call this liberation.

We invade a country, occupy it, rape the women and the men, our soldiers ride aged grandmothers around like donkeys, CALLING them donkeys, and yet, our political leadership actually professes to be greeted as liberators.

Exactly how stupid are we?

We take innocent people off the street, keep them incommunicado for YEARS, torturing them, and then return them to their homes, and talk about 'winning the heart and minds of Iraqis'.

How the HELL are we supposed to do that?

How does a rapist win the heart and mind of the woman or man he just raped?

How does a murderer 'win the hearts and minds' of the victims family?

We don't just do this at Abu Ghraib. We do this at at least eight other prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in Guantanamo Bay. This isn't six renegade soldiers. This is an explicit matter of policy used at US prisons across the world.

We use people who have admitted to torturing and killing Black South Africans as interrogators, and cover up their murders of Iraqi prisoners.
And then, the government who installed this policy promises to investigate and prosecute the crimes. How can they be trusted to do that? Is George Bush going to actually say "of course I knew we were hiring war criminals to torture Iraqis. I authorized it."? I rather think not.

And remember, in Iraq, we're doing this to people who DID NOT attack us, DID NOT have the means (WMD) to attack us. These are NOT the people who attacked us on 9/11! These people were guilty of NOTHING, except living over too much oil.

Have you noticed, BTW, how much effort the American media is putting into pretending this is a couple of renegade soldiers? In spite of YEARS of reports from the Red Cross, for prisoners released from Gitmo, from Iraq, from Afghanistan of systematic torture?

You know what one noted conservative media taking head called all this?
Fraternity pranks.

(He IS a drug addict, which might explain the comment.)

At what point do you run a way and hide. This isn't going to stop people. Some of this is how American Blacks are treated in prisons for centuries. George Bush is wrong. This IS America. When these people highjacked the last presidential election, we let them.

Well, at least now we don't have anyone here asking 'why do they hate us?' That's pretty fucking obvious now.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #2 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 05:52 AM
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It's such behavior that leads to atrocities such as September 11th.

And it will keep on happening. What sucks is that only the innocent will suffer.

FUCK YOU, SEWTA.
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post #3 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 05:59 AM
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Just regular people :saad:

Just regular Americans

fuck.
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post #4 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:00 AM
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I dont mean that all Americans are like that but err how can people not notice this all this because what country there from

fuck.
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post #5 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hingis-seles
It's such behavior that leads to atrocities such as September 11th.
We don't know that. As far as I can tell, bin Laden is a psycho, and every bit as bad as the commanders of American torturers in Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hingis-seles
And it will keep on happening. What sucks is that only the innocent will suffer.
No. The guilty suffer too. The worst of this is that the innocent suffer WITH them. A lot of very bad people are in American prisons too. Not that I avocate rape or murder even in those cases, but some of these people would do the same to us.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #6 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PointBlank
I dont mean that all Americans are like that but err how can people not notice this all this because what country there from
Because it happens in prisons outside the continental United States, for the most part.
Because 'we were only following orders'.
Because American soldiers are told that they can't follow an illegal order, but they are prosecuted and jailed themsleves if they fail to follow an order.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #7 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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One other thing. There is not one country in the 'Coalition of the Willing' who can hold themsleves above this. The Brits are in it with us. The Austalians also. The Poles, the Italians, and on and on. Reports are coming out now that American went to Israel last year to leanr interogation and torture techniques. There's an awful lot of blood on an awful lot of hands, and an awful lot of people looked the other way.

We're all gonna dragged into this cesspool, either as perpetrators, funders of perpetrators (youtax money at work), or victims.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #8 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:13 AM Thread Starter
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Watch as the people who ordered this dump it onthe lowest ranking soldiers

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4928006/

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #9 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
We don't know that. As far as I can tell, bin Laden is a psycho, and every bit as bad as the commanders of American torturers in Iraq.
But you've got to admit the man has a point when he says that all his acts are responses to what the US government has done. When all is said and done, Geroge Bush is no better than bin Laden. He is a terrorist as well. A psycho as well. So, when the US does get attacked, for what are correctly viewed as terrorist acts, its hardly surprising.

FUCK YOU, SEWTA.
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post #10 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:33 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DeuceDiva
volcana, let me ask you. the above statement. what are you trying to say? did you just mention it to mention it? or are is there a message you're trying to put across here about israel? care to answer that?
That Israel, like Britain, Australia, Poland, Bulgaria, Italy and quite a few other countries, have supported us as we did these things. They support us in different ways. By providing training, troops, tactical support, and some just UN votes. We are more guilty than they, except possibly the Brits who have their own torture scandal, but we've had help.

It that clear enough for you?

And to the supporters of Britain, Australia, Poland, Bulgaria, Italy, etc, please, don't ask me the question the last Israel supporter did. Just cross out 'Israel' and put the name of whatever country you like there. Somebody gave torturers from South Africa a place to live and a new job torturing people. Somebody polices cities, rounds people up and send them to our prisons to torture. We don't do all these things ourselves. We order them. We are ultimately responsible for them. But we have help. And some of that help knows exactly what we do.

Don't like it? Do me a favor. Stop helping.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #11 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:37 AM Thread Starter
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Ouch. That last post was kinda hostile. I'm sorry. I feel guilty, ashamed of my country and frustrated by my inability to affect change today. And I expect this feeling is going to last. But there's no need to take it out on you. By and large, WE are the problem.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #12 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcana
Watch as the people who ordered this dump it onthe lowest ranking soldiers

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4928006/
This is exactly what disturbs me about the whole abuse scandal. The administration is attempting to dump it on a few low ranking soldiers. From what I read these soldiers were not properly trained. And I suspect that all these orders to carry out the abuse came from the chain of command.

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I'll say this in public once. I miss serena so much. Fed is my favorite player but no one does it like her.

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post #13 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:50 AM Thread Starter
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This article will appear in tomorrow's New York times, but I'l violate copyright law and post it here. You'll notice that the many of the same techniques of torture and humilation are used here in the States. But here inthe home of porno, we don't have nearly the nudity taboo that Islam dictates.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/na...08PRIS.html?hp

Mistreatment of Prisoners Is Called Routine in U.S.
By FOX BUTTERFIELD
Published: May 8, 2004
Physical and sexual abuse of prisoners, similar to what has been uncovered in Iraq, takes place in American prisons with little public knowledge or concern, according to corrections officials, inmates and human rights advocates.
In Pennsylvania and some other states, inmates are routinely stripped in front of other inmates before being moved to a new prison or a new unit within their prison. In Arizona, male inmates at the Maricopa County jail in Phoenix are made to wear women's pink underwear as a form of humiliation.
At Virginia's Wallens Ridge maximum security prison, new inmates have reported being forced to wear black hoods, in theory to keep them from spitting on guards, and said they were often beaten and cursed at by guards and made to crawl.
The corrections experts say that some of the worst abuses have occurred in Texas, whose prisons were under a federal consent decree during much of the time President Bush was governor because of crowding and violence by guards against inmates. Judge William Wayne Justice of Federal District Court imposed the decree after finding that guards were allowing inmate gang leaders to buy and sell other inmates as slaves for sex.
The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time.
The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country's criminal justice system.
Mr. McCotter, 63, is director of business development for Management & Training Corporation, a Utah-based firm that says it is the third-largest private prison company, operating 13 prisons. In 2003, the company's operation of the Santa Fe jail was criticized by the Justice Department and the New Mexico Department of Corrections for unsafe conditions and lack of medical care for inmates. No further action was taken.
In response to a request for an interview on Friday, Mr. McCotter said in a written statement that he had left Iraq last September, just after a ribbon-cutting ceremony to open Abu Ghraib.
"I was not involved in any aspect of the facility's operation after that time," he said.
Nationwide, during the last quarter century, over 40 state prison systems were under some form of court order, for brutality, crowding, poor food or lack of medical care, said Marc Mauer, assistant director of the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group in Washington that calls for alternatives to incarceration.
In a 1999 opinion, Judge Justice wrote of the situation in Texas, "Many inmates credibly testified to the existence of violence, rape and extortion in the prison system and about their own suffering from such abysmal conditions."
In a case that began in 2000, a prisoner at the Allred Unit in Wichita Falls, Tex., said he was repeatedly raped by other inmates, even after he appealed to guards for help, and was allowed by prison staff to be treated like a slave, being bought and sold by various prison gangs in different parts of the prison. The inmate, Roderick Johnson, has filed suit against the Texas Department of Criminal Justice and the case is now before the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans, said Kara Gotsch, public policy coordinator for the National Prison Project of the American Civil Liberties Union, which is representing Mr. Johnson.
Asked what Mr. Bush knew about abuse in Texas prisons while he was governor, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said the problems in American prisons were not comparable to the abuses exposed at Abu Ghraib.
The corrections experts are careful to say they do not know to what extent the brutality and humiliation at Abu Ghraib were intended to break the prisoners for interrogation or were just random acts.
But Chase Riveland, a former secretary of corrections in Washington State and Colorado and now a prison consultant based near Seattle, said, "In some jurisdictions in the United States there is a prison culture that tolerates violence, and it's been there a long time."
This culture has been made worse by the quadrupling of the number of prison and jail inmates to 2.1 million over the last 25 years, which has often resulted in crowding, he said. The problems have been compounded by the need to hire large numbers of inexperienced and often undertrained guards, Mr. Riveland said.
Some states have a hard time recruiting enough guards, Mr. Riveland said, particularly Arizona, where the pay is very low. "Retention in these states is a big problem and so unqualified people get promoted to be lieutenants or captains in a few months," he said.
Something like this process may have happened in Iraq, where the Americans tried to start a new prison system with undertrained military police officers from Army reserve units, Mr. Riveland suggested.
When Mr. Ashcroft announced the appointment of the team to restore Iraq's criminal justice system last year, including Mr. McCotter, he said, "Now all Iraqis can taste liberty in their native land, and we will help make that freedom permanent by assisting them to establish an equitable criminal justice system based on the rule of law and standards of basic human rights."
A Justice Department spokeswoman, Monica Goodling, did not return phone calls on Friday asking why Mr. Ashcroft had chosen Mr. McCotter even though his firm's operation of the Santa Fe jail had been criticized by the Justice Department.
Mr. McCotter has a long background in prisons. He had been a military police officer in Vietnam and had risen to be a colonel in the Army. His last post was as warden of the Army prison at Fort Leavenworth.
After retiring from the Army, Mr. Cotter was head of the corrections departments in New Mexico and Texas before taking the job in Utah.
In Utah, in addition to the death of the mentally ill inmate, Mr. McCotter also came under criticism for hiring a prison psychiatrist whose medical license was on probation and who was accused of Medicaid fraud and writing prescriptions for drug addicts.
In an interview with an online magazine, Corrections.com, last January, Mr. McCotter recalled that of all the prisons in Iraq, Abu Ghraib "is the only place we agreed as a team was truly closest to an American prison. They had cell housing and segregation."
But 80 to 90 percent of the prison had been destroyed, so Mr. McCotter set about rebuilding it, everything from walls and toilets to handcuffs and soap. He employed 100 Iraqis who had worked in the prison under Saddam Hussein, and paid for everything with wads of cash, up to $3 million, that he carried with him.
Another problem, Mr. McCotter quickly discovered, was that the Iraqi staff, despite some American training, quickly reverted to their old ways, "shaking down families, shaking down inmates, letting prisoners buy their way out of prison."
So the American team fired the guards and went with former Iraqi military personnel. "They didn't have any bad habits and did things exactly the way we trained them."
Mr. McCotter said he worked closely with American military police officers at the prison, but he did not give any names.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #14 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceDiva
is this clear enough for you?

get off your high horse and stop whining about something that apparently (by your won definition) everyone is guilty of doing. an accessory is just as guilty as the party in question.

no one is saying that these things are great to do. or that they are not horrific in nature. but to come on a posting board and ask the question "americans, have we really sunken this low?" is just about as stupid as you getting in the midst of a bunch of klanners and asking the question "black people, are we really all that bad?" what kind of responses do you expect from this place in regard to a question like that about america?

if you don't like your country, put yourself in a position to change things and make those changes where it counts. in your community. in your neighborhood. in your state. in your region. but don't come here asking a dumb ass question like that. who is going to say that these things are acceptable? they are not! the only thing you'll get is negativity from....yes...non-americans. you say you're from a military family. if that is so...then you should know the drill.

it's easier to come on a message board and spew off like that. be a man about it and if your passion for change is that strong...do something about it. where it really matters. not where your rhetorical questions are meaningless.
Gee, last I checked, people read posts on message boards. Talking to people IS doing something about it. And I addressed thread to 'My Fellow Americans' some of whom are presumably voters, who's opinions may count in the upcoming presidential election. And maybe, just maybe, people in other countries wouldn't mind knowing that some Americans aren't sweeping this under the rug as the actions of a renegade few..

Sorry, but this is a REAL good place to write my thoughts. They get stored, I can copy them and write them to newspapers and magazines, as I've already started doing. And send ideas to the political opposition in this country, as I've already started doing. And can communicate with like-minded and opposition-minded people. Convicne the opposed, I hope, or get help from supporters.

Surely, spreading as much information as possible to as many places as possible about just what's going on is the very BEST thing I can do.

Why are you so opposed to that? What is gained by silence? Posting here can only help.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #15 of 183 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2004, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceDiva
an accessory is just as guilty as the party in question.
If there was ever a case of the all the accessories NOT being as guilty as the party in question, this is it. Some of these countries are just providing the transports and drivers that take prisoners to the jails. I can't call the truck driver who was ordered there by his government equally guilty.

I have to go to sleep now, which I don't want to do. This is giving me nightmares.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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