Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6 - Page 186 - TennisForum.com

 
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post #2776 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 15th, 2013, 08:27 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

The great players keep getting back to the top.
We are going to find out a lot about Caroline these next several years. Obviously she's struggling now. If she wants success enough to really fight for it, we know from IW, from Miami 2012, that she can still can a force on the tour

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post #2777 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 15th, 2013, 09:44 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I truly just would like too see her improve as a player, Just the way Radwanska has done, There an alot area in Caro game where she can get better at SO that the most important thing I like too see her do If that happen I think she can find herself back in the mix with some best player

S. Williams (21) ♦ V. Williams (7) ♦ Vika (2) ♦ Kvitová (2) ♦ Kerber (1) ♦ Muguruza (1) ♦ Ivanovic (1) ♦
C. Wozniacki ♦ A. Radwanska ♦ S. Halep ♦ B. Bencic ♦ S. Stephens ♦ M. Keys ♦ Domi Cibulkova ♦ G. Bouchard ♦ L. Robson ♦ N. Osaka ♦ J. Ostapenko ♦ A. Konjuh ♦ D. Vekic ♦ M. Puig ♦ V. Duval ♦ T. Townsend ♦ L. Chirico ♦ F. Abanda ♦ S. Samir ♦ F. Stollár ♦ T. Andrianjafitrimo
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post #2778 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 04:42 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Originally Posted by ozza View Post
Maria's serve was truly abysmal in those years. She could barely get her second serve in. What are you going to say her? Make less double faults, work more on your serve, here work with this service coach? That is pretty insulting to that player tbh. You would certainly rub someone the wrong way if you went around like that. It's not like Maria is reliant on the WTA for exposure is it, she has Nike or whoever for that.

If you want anyone to be having a word with Caroline so to speak, it should be Adidas or the like, someone who has a large vested interest in Caroline's performances and future (see Nike's 'pep talk' with Serena Williams several years ago). For me the WTA recommending players to get a serving coach would be way over the line, they are then analysing people's games, weaknesses and trying to help them to fix them. That in no way should be the WTA's job.

Every sport has 'wasted talent' talent so to speak, it's not like this is a WTA-only thing. I like to see players solving their own problems. Caro or her team should be fully aware of her own problems, it's up to her to then find people to help her solve them. If they are not aware of her problems, then she should be seeking a new team anyway.
You keep using Maria as a crutch--a WEAK one at that--to support flimsy arguments.Bottom line is that Masha wouldn't totally kiss off the WTA for politely asking questions.More relevantly,there was never any doubt that Masha was genuinely striving,so her struggles were completely irrelevant to this debate,no matter how desperately you try to drag her into it.

You have things COMPLETELY screwed up and upside down with respect to Adidas and the WTA.It's ADIDAS who would have to worry about alienating Caroline,who could very easily find another sponsor simply by agreeing to pose in their underwear in a sexy photoshoot.Mind you,I wouldn't object if Adidas showed some balls and asserted themselves,but the fact that they haven't tried to buy themselves out of their sinkhole Ivanovic contract,by paying Ana a healthy lump sum,sort of indicates that they aren't too assertive when it comes to unproductive clients.On the contrary,the WTA is Caro's BOSS,in effect,and can most CERTAINLY impose their will on her in that capacity.

I can't speak for your personal values,but the tone of your post is that of someone who almost obsesses over minor intrusions as if they were Orwellian oppression...and THAT is your big objection,nothing practical nor anything that's relevant to tennis.

Having said that,you strike me as a very pleasant,even-tempered person,but I'd be SHOCKED if you were a business owner of any sort.I can't think of any enterprise besides the WTA that sees underperforming employees...knows WHY they're underperforming,in most cases...and doesn't do jack shit to make the employees--and,subsequently,the overall business--more productive.Any normal corporation that adopted the limp-wristed,hands-off policy that you propose would go bankrupt and collapse in ineptitude.Fortunately,the dynamics of sports entertainment--and the marketability of their reliable,consistent stars--allow the WTA to survive in spite of its laughable incompetence and failure to promote Employee Productivity

Where we mostly disagree is that you see my proposals as some despotic,brutal,Soviet Bloc violations of human rights...and AYE see it as normal employer/employee relations where the boss tries to stimulate an unproductive worker

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post #2779 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 05:12 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Realized my lack of clarity about 1 minute after signing off;I'm aware that Caro-WTA isn't the standard employee/employer agreement,more like Independent contractor/Client....with the contractor/tennis players expected to perform certain services,mainly play tennis and do promos.

Even so,the premise is the same: The client,or de facto boss,has EVERY RIGHT to DEMAND quality service from the contractor as part of the terms of the work agreement.Furthermore,if a formerly productive contractor,especially a top-notch one,suddenly began displaying piss-poor performance and unprofessional behavior,most clients would certainly ask,'Hey,what gives?'...and if the contractor responded to that fair question with a bitchy attitude,well...the rest is common sense

....Which goes back to my argument that slacker-players are lucky to 'find work' AT ALL,and the WTA is just plain stupid for rewarding shitty work by its contractors,thus encouraging them to continue in it.....when the WTA could just as easily replace an unproductive contractor with a hard-working one

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post #2780 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 09:51 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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You keep using Maria as a crutch--a WEAK one at that--to support flimsy arguments.Bottom line is that Masha wouldn't totally kiss off the WTA for politely asking questions.More relevantly,there was never any doubt that Masha was genuinely striving,so her struggles were completely irrelevant to this debate,no matter how desperately you try to drag her into it.

You have things COMPLETELY screwed up and upside down with respect to Adidas and the WTA.It's ADIDAS who would have to worry about alienating Caroline,who could very easily find another sponsor simply by agreeing to pose in their underwear in a sexy photoshoot.Mind you,I wouldn't object if Adidas showed some balls and asserted themselves,but the fact that they haven't tried to buy themselves out of their sinkhole Ivanovic contract,by paying Ana a healthy lump sum,sort of indicates that they aren't too assertive when it comes to unproductive clients.On the contrary,the WTA is Caro's BOSS,in effect,and can most CERTAINLY impose their will on her in that capacity.

I can't speak for your personal values,but the tone of your post is that of someone who almost obsesses over minor intrusions as if they were Orwellian oppression...and THAT is your big objection,nothing practical nor anything that's relevant to tennis.

Having said that,you strike me as a very pleasant,even-tempered person,but I'd be SHOCKED if you were a business owner of any sort.I can't think of any enterprise besides the WTA that sees underperforming employees...knows WHY they're underperforming,in most cases...and doesn't do jack shit to make the employees--and,subsequently,the overall business--more productive.Any normal corporation that adopted the limp-wristed,hands-off policy that you propose would go bankrupt and collapse in ineptitude.Fortunately,the dynamics of sports entertainment--and the marketability of their reliable,consistent stars--allow the WTA to survive in spite of its laughable incompetence and failure to promote Employee Productivity

Where we mostly disagree is that you see my proposals as some despotic,brutal,Soviet Bloc violations of human rights...and AYE see it as normal employer/employee relations where the boss tries to stimulate an unproductive worker
I use Maria because it demonstrates why you cannot be judging your own players. The general consensus was Maria was massively underachieving in 2009-2010, there are a ton of people right now who think Caroline was never any good anyway and is right where she deserves to be (if not lower). These people aren't haters before you jump on that, nearly every commentary on Caro's matches she's made out to be hard working but lacking in tennis talent. Just the other day the commentators were talking how the game was all in Jovanovski's hands and if she plays well there is nothing Caroline can do. This sort of principle is in lots and lots of articles as well. It would be a complete nightmare for the WTA judge who is working hard, who isn't, and it would arguably be completely out of line if you were judging if players were working efficiently or not.

I completely disagree with the second part. It is down to sponsors to get the best out of the player they are paying. Why are Adidas going to be worried about alienating Caroline, no-one in their right frame of minds will pay Caroline the same money Adidas are currently paying her, you don't exactly see sponsors rushing to sign Caroline at all right now do you, let and out a brand sponsor. What is Caroline going to say if Adidas come to her? I am sure they would be more than willing to terminate her contract at zero cost if she wished (which she almost certainly won't).

It's not that easy to buy someone out of a contract, you either have to get them to agree to a lower fee than the rest of the contract, or pay the full sum they are owed in lump, a lot of players would probably be happy to just sit out the rest of their contract getting paid in full, and it makes no economic sense to pay someone in full to buy out of their contract early. We don't even know if Adidas have attempted to do this with Ivanovic, but why would she accept a lower sum anyway when she can just stay and be guaranteed more money?

There is one key difference between the WTA and an employer on the street. Every WTA player effectively gets paid a performance based contract, you get paid whatever prize money you earn in the year, that is effectively how well you do in the year, it's not like the WTA is guaranteeing players x amount of money. So if you are slacking you will only naturally affect your own pay packet. Whereas most employees are guaranteed x amount of money from their employer no matter how hard they work.

The only way the WTA could stop a 'slacking worker' is banning players they think are not performing to their best, this is so obviously a non-starter, it's just never going to happen. The WTA aren't going to go up to the world number 9 and say you know what you should be top 5, you can't play on the tour anymore. If others were good enough to replace them, they will eventually overtake them in the rankings, and that player will plummet down the rankings.
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post #2781 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 01:48 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I hoping we hear some new soon about her playing Brussels Open she need some clay wins before playing RG

S. Williams (21) ♦ V. Williams (7) ♦ Vika (2) ♦ Kvitová (2) ♦ Kerber (1) ♦ Muguruza (1) ♦ Ivanovic (1) ♦
C. Wozniacki ♦ A. Radwanska ♦ S. Halep ♦ B. Bencic ♦ S. Stephens ♦ M. Keys ♦ Domi Cibulkova ♦ G. Bouchard ♦ L. Robson ♦ N. Osaka ♦ J. Ostapenko ♦ A. Konjuh ♦ D. Vekic ♦ M. Puig ♦ V. Duval ♦ T. Townsend ♦ L. Chirico ♦ F. Abanda ♦ S. Samir ♦ F. Stollár ♦ T. Andrianjafitrimo
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post #2782 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 02:32 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Caro should watch Jankovic. Jelena dropped way off the top. But she won a small title, got thru 2 soft draws and made Miami SF then Charleston final. Now beat Li in Rome.
Caro can eventually comeback also. But she has to fight and get thru soft draws. Right now she is losing to everyone in any draw

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post #2783 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 03:04 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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Caro should watch Jankovic. Jelena dropped way off the top. But she won a small title, got thru 2 soft draws and made Miami SF then Charleston final. Now beat Li in Rome.
Caro can eventually comeback also. But she has to fight and get thru soft draws. Right now she is losing to everyone in any draw
Jankovic may come back to #7 or #8 in the rankings but that's still a long way from where she once was.

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post #2784 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 03:22 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

That is because if you leave it too long, the game passes you by, you can never recapture what you once had. You can't rest on your laurels in tennis for years while everyone else is working on their game.
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post #2785 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 03:47 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

^ True I would hate too see Caro fall down in the ranking badly, I hoping she can improve on her game and start working hard, I hoping Caro can get back in the mix and start winning again soon & make deep run in the slam, to me she can be rank around 5-6 at her best but she gotta make the improvement on her game

S. Williams (21) ♦ V. Williams (7) ♦ Vika (2) ♦ Kvitová (2) ♦ Kerber (1) ♦ Muguruza (1) ♦ Ivanovic (1) ♦
C. Wozniacki ♦ A. Radwanska ♦ S. Halep ♦ B. Bencic ♦ S. Stephens ♦ M. Keys ♦ Domi Cibulkova ♦ G. Bouchard ♦ L. Robson ♦ N. Osaka ♦ J. Ostapenko ♦ A. Konjuh ♦ D. Vekic ♦ M. Puig ♦ V. Duval ♦ T. Townsend ♦ L. Chirico ♦ F. Abanda ♦ S. Samir ♦ F. Stollár ♦ T. Andrianjafitrimo
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post #2786 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 04:06 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

I dont see how Caro can ever be good with an inconsistent forehand.
Opponents will attack it all match, and if she doesnt keep her forehands deep and in play, I expect this will continue.
But if it takes her years and years to start to be consistent again, at least she can look at what Jankovic is doing, years after losing #1, she's finally getting some consistency back

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post #2787 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 04:24 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

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I use Maria because it demonstrates why you cannot be judging your own players. The general consensus was Maria was massively underachieving in 2009-2010, there are a ton of people right now who think Caroline was never any good anyway and is right where she deserves to be (if not lower). These people aren't haters before you jump on that, nearly every commentary on Caro's matches she's made out to be hard working but lacking in tennis talent. Just the other day the commentators were talking how the game was all in Jovanovski's hands and if she plays well there is nothing Caroline can do. This sort of principle is in lots and lots of articles as well. It would be a complete nightmare for the WTA judge who is working hard, who isn't, and it would arguably be completely out of line if you were judging if players were working efficiently or not.

I completely disagree with the second part. It is down to sponsors to get the best out of the player they are paying. Why are Adidas going to be worried about alienating Caroline, no-one in their right frame of minds will pay Caroline the same money Adidas are currently paying her, you don't exactly see sponsors rushing to sign Caroline at all right now do you, let and out a brand sponsor. What is Caroline going to say if Adidas come to her? I am sure they would be more than willing to terminate her contract at zero cost if she wished (which she almost certainly won't).

It's not that easy to buy someone out of a contract, you either have to get them to agree to a lower fee than the rest of the contract, or pay the full sum they are owed in lump, a lot of players would probably be happy to just sit out the rest of their contract getting paid in full, and it makes no economic sense to pay someone in full to buy out of their contract early. We don't even know if Adidas have attempted to do this with Ivanovic, but why would she accept a lower sum anyway when she can just stay and be guaranteed more money?

There is one key difference between the WTA and an employer on the street. Every WTA player effectively gets paid a performance based contract, you get paid whatever prize money you earn in the year, that is effectively how well you do in the year, it's not like the WTA is guaranteeing players x amount of money. So if you are slacking you will only naturally affect your own pay packet. Whereas most employees are guaranteed x amount of money from their employer no matter how hard they work.

The only way the WTA could stop a 'slacking worker' is banning players they think are not performing to their best, this is so obviously a non-starter, it's just never going to happen. The WTA aren't going to go up to the world number 9 and say you know what you should be top 5, you can't play on the tour anymore. If others were good enough to replace them, they will eventually overtake them in the rankings, and that player will plummet down the rankings.
You are an educated person,yet very little of the above makes ANY sense;you're best offering was the Ivanovic/Adidas issue but that wasn't a main thrust of our disagreement,anyway.The penultimate paragraph was accurate yet totally irrelevant.You COMPLETELY FAILED to address the issue of an employer's right to demand good performance from the employee....mainly because you HAVE no sound answer for that.I never once suggested banning a player so have NO IDEA why you even brought that up.The answer,as I've clearly stated,is to replace slackers in promos with players who work hard,and that would be a GREAT motivator for some of them to get their acts together.If the WTA ever eatablished such a culture of Accountability,then young players would understand from the get-go.

Ultimately,it's only your PERSONAL highly-exaggerated fears of privacy invasion that lead you to such illogic.Employers CONSTANTLY evaluate employee performance in the real world,and it wouldn't be difficult in the WTA,either,if they had credible evaluators such as respected ex-players and coaches.....Obviously,Caro,like the slutty Serb,isn't too afraid of Adidas,but she would certainly listen to her bosses

I have to leave for work but,if you choose to reply,I suggest that you put your personal preferences aside and HONESTLY look at this issue from a broader perspective

PARTY IN THE PANIC ROOM! Serena wins an undoubtedly clean #22

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post #2788 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 04:37 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Wozniacki replaces Radwanska the Brussels Open
http://www.dhnet.be/sports/tennis/ar...sels-open.html

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post #2789 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 04:43 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

Good decision.
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post #2790 of 5196 (permalink) Old May 16th, 2013, 05:38 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 6

She's going for the 0-4 on red clay before Paris
At least she's bagging some money


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