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post #166 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2011, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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You were right, Chrissie. $2,000 fine That's barely a slap on the wrist.
Considering the fun that GM posters are having over this 'incident' they probably should have given her a bonus instead of a fine for providing them with such excellent entertainment.

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post #167 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2011, 07:18 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

Is it just me or have a number of Serena fans started to defend Caro in GM, esp. in relation to Sharapova?
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post #168 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 2011, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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Is it just me or have a number of Serena fans started to defend Caro in GM, esp. in relation to Sharapova?
Not sure. I haven't visited those particular threads. But I've been on Serena's player forum to show some support and most of them seem ok. Several (more than several in fact) have good repped me with some nice comment about Caro added for good measure. Like any fanbase they inevitably have some trollish figures, but most of them are fine, really.

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post #169 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 14th, 2011, 05:26 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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That's not the first utterly idiotic post that particular user's made.
And indeed, further to that: http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost....postcount=2232
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post #170 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 15th, 2011, 01:57 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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Originally Posted by C. W. Fields View Post
And Kvitova has 5 titles, 1 of them a grand slam.
It's interesting, this year we've had 4 different slam winners and they're all the same type, powerful but inconsistent. Clijsters, Li and Kvitova haven't managed to win a tournament since winning their slam while Sam has won no tournaments in the year leading up to USO! With Kim injury is of course part of the explanation but it's still a pattern.
This inconsistent pattern is also reflected in the rankings. After USO the four slam winner will be ranked #5, 6, 7 and 9. In the YEC race the two leaders and only players to qualify so far - Caro and Sharapova - are non-slam winners.
Whether this inconsistency with so many different champions is a good thing for the sport is questionable but as far as Caro retaining her #1 ranking it's a good thing. If one player won 2-3 slam titles she'd be a much bigger threat.

Congrats to Sam. I didn't watch too much of her tennis during this tournament. She dropped 3 sets on her way to the final and it's my inpression her game wasn't always too pretty but she seems to have toughened up mentally. It used to be she got tight in close and important matches but not this time.
Her winning the final was a real surprise considering how much more convincing Serena's wins have been and how soundly she beat Sam just a month ago in Toronto (and Serena usually plays even better at slams). Maybe being the underdog - unlike FO 10 - helped Sam keep her nerves under control.
And I wonder how Sharapova feels right now? She completely owns Sam (9-0 H2H) and they were in the same half of the draw here so if only she had lived up to her seeding... But if Sam could turn a recent Serena loss into a win maybe she could have done the same against Sharapova!?
I didn't list Kvitova cuz she's a lot younger than the other slam winners this year. So I figure she has a lot of time to acquire titles.

It's not fair to lump Kim in with the other slam winners this year. I find it hard to imagine that she'd wouldn't have won titles after winning the Australian Open if she'd been able to stay healthy and not miss long periods of time. She had the 2nd titles on tour last year (5) and the 2nd best winning % (85%, which is better than what Caro had last year or so far this year).

Sharapova is a lot worse matchup for Stosur though. Stosur had beaten Serena twice before the US Open final and had match points in another match. She's only won two sets in 9 matches against Sharapova.
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post #171 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 15th, 2011, 08:44 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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Originally Posted by C. W. Fields View Post
And Kvitova has 5 titles, 1 of them a grand slam.
It's interesting, this year we've had 4 different slam winners and they're all the same type, powerful but inconsistent. Clijsters, Li and Kvitova haven't managed to win a tournament since winning their slam while Sam has won no tournaments in the year leading up to USO! With Kim injury is of course part of the explanation but it's still a pattern.
This inconsistent pattern is also reflected in the rankings. After USO the four slam winner will be ranked #5, 6, 7 and 9. In the YEC race the two leaders and only players to qualify so far - Caro and Sharapova - are non-slam winners.
Whether this inconsistency with so many different champions is a good thing for the sport is questionable but as far as Caro retaining her #1 ranking it's a good thing. If one player won 2-3 slam titles she'd be a much bigger threat.
Two things. First as Protoss said on Kim. Injuries are the reason Kim hasn't won since AO. She's hardly played since. And when she has - she's got an injury most tournments. As far as her history when she's not injured - she always has won plenty of tournments. She did last year. So I don't think she should be put in the same category at all.

The question as to whether what we have now "is good for the sport". I'm fast coming to the conclusion doesn't have any meaning at all and is said to make an argument sound good. One person says it because they have an idea that they want to see the slam winners #1 or their fav isn't #1. And everyone just copies and says the same because it sounds it adds weight to their opinion who they want to be at #1. But honestly:
  • Most people couldn't care less about women's tennis - not now and in the past and that's not changing. So only a small number have ever followed the game.
    .
  • The papers here have never had much coverage of the women's game - even in so called golden ages.
    .
  • The game is in no danger of dying or shrinking. Players have never had so much money. There's no worry about struggling to get enough tournaments for the following year. Contrast that with other women's sports.
    .
  • Queues to get into Wimbledon are longer and you need to get there earlier than in the past.
    .
  • Even say at Eastbourne - it's best and safest to buy tickets in advance for the last days.
I don't see any logical reason why the slam winners and the players who played best at those single tournament has to always be the best player over a whole year just because in the past that has usually been the case. And we aren't going to lose the group of followers who moan about it to the game. They will stick around for ever to moan how bad it all is.

Caroline Wozniacki

Chris Evert, Steffi Graf, Kim Clijsters
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post #172 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 06:45 AM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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I don't see any logical reason why the slam winners and the players who played best at those single tournament has to always be the best player over a whole year just because in the past that has usually been the case. And we aren't going to lose the group of followers who moan about it to the game. They will stick around for ever to moan how bad it all is.
Exactly! Things change.
Players that retained the #1 spot in the past won a slam(s) and were ALSO more consistent throughout the entire season. Now we have more players who are pretty much just shining for two weeks a year while Caroline is the most consistent when considering the entire season as a whole. The "moaners" will not change but they should realize that everything is different now and that doesn't have to be looked down upon. Now of course Kim is a different case (injuries) but if just one of these slam winners from this year could win a few other big titles on top of their slam win then they would be a deserving threat to the throne. Until then, it's Caroline's for a good reason

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post #173 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

The obsession of many posters with slams is a very worrying thing for tennis as a whole I think. For example: "Stosur has won a slam" - and with that one argument the case is closed as far as most people is concerned in that Sam vs Caro poll. Just one example of a countless number that demonstrates the contempt of many tennis fans for anything other than slams. It really has nothing to do with Woz - that contempt shines through in threads that have nothing to do with her just as much.

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post #174 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 05:26 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
The obsession of many posters with slams is a very worrying thing for tennis as a whole I think. For example: "Stosur has won a slam" - and with that one argument the case is closed as far as most people is concerned in that Sam vs Caro poll. Just one example of a countless number that demonstrates the contempt of many tennis fans for anything other than slams. It really has nothing to do with Woz - that contempt shines through in threads that have nothing to do with her just as much.
As far as any poll regarding Caroline vs. whoever I have always maintained that it is silly to compare a 21 year old Caroline with a 27 year old Stosur, a 29 year old Li or a 30 year old Schiavone. Seems to me that it would make sense to wait until her career is over before comparing Caroline with other players, especially players that are five plus years older than her.

In general, I agree with you but the slams are the most important events. Caroline can win New Haven ten times in a row but if she fails to win a slam no one but her hardcore fans are going to care. Every player wants to win a slam and the very best up their games and try to play their very best at the slams. As of this writing I think there is some validity in the complaint that Caroline is not putting as much emphasis on the slams as she should be. Few would disagree that her clay schedule was too heavy and that Copenhagen was not ideal preparation for Wimbledon. Getting a clay title in Brussels was nice but might that week have been better spent resting? After making a final in 2009 and a semi-final in 2010 it must have been a nice feeling to win in Charleston but does playing on that mutant surface do her game any good heading into the European clay season? I can only speak for myself but I think that Caroline has won enough of the smaller tournaments, I think it is time for her do do her best on the biggest stages. That does not mean that she must win a slam in 2012 but I would like to see her go deeper at Roland Garros and Wimbledon and to see more fight from her when/if she does lose.

For me I have seen her win enough small events with weak fields, I want to see her competing in the bigger events (and that doesn't just mean the slams) that feature most of the top twenty. I see her career as a ladder. The premier events, of which she has won plenty, are the bottom. The mandatories and premier 5's are the middle, she has done well at these over the last year. Then we have the slams which are the top of the ladder. Despite making two semi-finals over the last year her results at the slams, especially considering that pesky "1" next to her name, have been slightly disappointing. It appears to me that she is using the premiers to peak for the mandatories and premier 5's. I would like to see her use the mandatories and premier 5's as a way to peak at the slams and to not worry as much about winning the premier's. We will have to wait and see how she does in 2012 but it seems to me that she is somewhat stalled at the middle stage of the ladder and she needs to have a breakthrough where she can start making semi-finals and finals at the slams on a more regular basis. I am sure that many of you will disagree with me but the fact that she has not made a slam final over the last two years is a big disappointment to me.

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post #175 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

My post really has nothing to do with Caro but with the general attitude of fans (at least those there are here) - I just used that poll as an example. I definitely agree that the slams are the most important events, but everything else is talked about with such contempt that I wonder why they even bother playing.

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post #176 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 05:59 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
My post really has nothing to do with Caro but with the general attitude of fans (at least those there are here) - I just used that poll as an example. I definitely agree that the slams are the most important events, but everything else is talked about with such contempt that I wonder why they even bother playing.
Well, to some people it was huge that Caroline lost early in Toronto and Cincinnati but if she had won either or both events those same people almost certainly would have labelled them as mickey mouse tournaments so it really doesn't matter what they think they will always find a reason to denigrate Caroline.

For me I always look at the field. For example, at the US Open this year the draw collapsed in a fairly spectacular way and I would argue that some of the mandatories and premier 5 events had better quarters, semis and finals matches. If you have a non slam that has all or most of the top twenty playing in it an argument could be made that it is just as difficult to win as a slam because the players do not get a day off between matches. Which is a greater feat, winning a slam or winning Indian Wells and Miami or Madrid and Rome or Tokyo and Beijing back to back?

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post #177 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 08:06 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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Originally Posted by Chrissie-fan View Post
My post really has nothing to do with Caro but with the general attitude of fans (at least those there are here) - I just used that poll as an example. I definitely agree that the slams are the most important events, but everything else is talked about with such contempt that I wonder why they even bother playing.
people do like to downgrade the non-slam events way too much, oh of course unless their favorite player wins one...then it's a great success. Unfortunately for them, Caroline takes most of those titles so maybe they have forgotten what that feeling is like

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Well, to some people it was huge that Caroline lost early in Toronto and Cincinnati but if she had won either or both events those same people almost certainly would have labelled them as mickey mouse tournaments so it really doesn't matter what they think they will always find a reason to denigrate Caroline.

For me I always look at the field. For example, at the US Open this year the draw collapsed in a fairly spectacular way and I would argue that some of the mandatories and premier 5 events had better quarters, semis and finals matches. If you have a non slam that has all or most of the top twenty playing in it an argument could be made that it is just as difficult to win as a slam because the players do not get a day off between matches. Which is a greater feat, winning a slam or winning Indian Wells and Miami or Madrid and Rome or Tokyo and Beijing back to back?
Great post...can't think of anything to add really. It's unfortunate that more of the non-slam events couldn't be upped a couple notches in people's opinions. I mean...Dinara can be laughed at for winning Rome and Madrid but then Kuznetsova grabs Roland Garros and it's one for the history books I mean I get why the slams are the most important but it would be nice if there weren't so many "wta fans" that see no issue in berating every non-slam tourney (give or take 2 or 3) as useless Mickey Mouse events. Do they not enjoy watching these players play more than four times a year? Is supporting the very full tour that we are lucky to have such a bad thing? Maybe this should be boxing...the two biggest names have a few big matches to see who takes the belt and is the undisputed champ until they arrange a rematch...yikes!

edit: okay I don't know much about boxing but my statement is kind of how I perceive it so just fyi..my apologies if that last line doesn't make sense

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post #178 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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edit: okay I don't know much about boxing but my statement is kind of how I perceive it so just fyi..my apologies if that last line doesn't make sense
In boxing there are so many titles, including - and especially world titles that everyone who doesn't suck is bound to win one sooner or later. The belt titles (wba, wbc, wbo, ibf, etc...) are more often than not REAL Mickey Mouse titles, but the casual sports fan doesn't have a clue. The legitimate world champs in boxing are those that are according to Ring Magazine. Even though those 'titles' are fictional, at least the're not the result of politics or corruption and the're the only titles boxing fans really take seriously.

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post #179 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 08:35 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

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In boxing there are so many titles, including - and especially world titles that everyone who doesn't suck is bound to win one sooner or later. The belt titles (wba, wbc, wbo, ibf, etc...) are more often than not REAL Mickey Mouse titles, but the casual sports fan doesn't have a clue. The legitimate world champs in boxing are those that are according to Ring Magazine. Even though those 'titles' are fictional, at least the're not the result of politics or corruption and the're the only titles boxing fans really take seriously.
thanks for the insight as a "very casual" fan of boxing...I've just tuned into those big "paperview belt" fights where my brother is like "oooh you gotta watch this one, this player in the undisputed champ but he might lose his belt tonight" type of fights. I have no clue about it really but I have to admit that the few fights I've watched...I've enjoyed it

edit: I just re-read my post and realized I used the word "player" to describe a boxer. I guess my head as a sports fan is deeply rooted into tennis

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post #180 of 5060 (permalink) Old Sep 16th, 2011, 08:35 PM
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Re: Womens Tennis in General

I think slams are the most important events in terms of the amount of points. However, they are also ījustī tournaments and a small part of the tour. I have an impression that some people have an impression that winning a slam will automatically make one unbeatable and better than the rest.
People who think this way are probably casual tennis fans who do not watch matches outside of slams or just repeat the same old for the sake of it because they donīt want to see the reality which shows them that to be the best in the world doesnīt require to win a Grand Slam and it is not easy to get atop of the ranking even if a player won one.
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