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post #3526 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 29th, 2011, 10:35 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

I separate her hardcourt from clay & grass where she hasnt won a Tier I or made a slam SF.
On hardcourt she has 4 slam SF's.

I think she wasnt trying her best to win againt Vinci & mchale.
She was trying to be more aggressive, & that takes away some of her strengths - her consistency & stamina.

So to me, its just 1 bad loss to kanepi, and she has those kinds of losses now & then. Like Petkovic or Zvonareva.

The tour is on hardcourt thru Miami next spring. So I say lets see how this plays out.
If she doesnt make at least 1 final in Beijing or Turkey, I might agree something is wrong.

But I dont believe she was trying her best to win in those losses before New haven. I think she was trying to be more aggressive and see how she could do at it

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post #3527 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 29th, 2011, 11:06 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

I think Caroline did well on clay until the FO loss.
I think Charleston win, Stuttgart final, Rome SF, Brussels win is a good run.
Madrid was the bad loss, & Julia on clay is a tough matchup for Caroline.

Then she won Copenhagen.

I think the slam losses bothered her. A lot of what former players said is that she has to work on developing weapons. That led to Toronto & Cincy. She was trying to take the offensive.

She understood she had to go back to her game for the USO, and she did. She also went back to her game for New Haven, a tournament she cares about.

So I'm not a believer that she's fallen apart.
But I'm not sure, so like you guys who think she stinks now, I'll watch Beijing closely.

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post #3528 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 29th, 2011, 11:57 PM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
I separate her hardcourt from clay & grass where she hasnt won a Tier I or made a slam SF.
On hardcourt she has 4 slam SF's.

I think she wasnt trying her best to win againt Vinci & mchale.
She was trying to be more aggressive, & that takes away some of her strengths - her consistency & stamina.

So to me, its just 1 bad loss to kanepi, and she has those kinds of losses now & then. Like Petkovic or Zvonareva.

The tour is on hardcourt thru Miami next spring. So I say lets see how this plays out.
If she doesnt make at least 1 final in Beijing or Turkey, I might agree something is wrong.

But I dont believe she was trying her best to win in those losses before New haven. I think she was trying to be more aggressive and see how she could do at it
I understand that a lot of people have lesser expectations of Caroline on clay and grass but I am not one of them. Certainly she is better on hardcourts but I don't think that means she can not do well on other surfaces.

Eh, I think she should have been able to beat Vinci and McHale even if she wasn't playing her best/experimenting with a more aggressive style of play. Seeing her be completely helpless in dealing with Vinci's slice shots was not fun.

One bad loss to Kanepi? Eh, I fundamentally disagree. With just a couple of exceptions (Rome and the US Open) she has been underperforming for several months at the premier 5's, mandatories and majors.

If she does well at Beijing and/or the YEC I will be happy to be proven wrong but I think there is a serious problem and I expect this slump to run through the rest of the season and if she does nothing to address why her level of play has slipped she could have a rough time on the hardcourts from January-March, 2012. If she struggles on her best surface 2012 could be a very bad year for her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlox View Post
I think Caroline did well on clay until the FO loss.
I think Charleston win, Stuttgart final, Rome SF, Brussels win is a good run.
Madrid was the bad loss, & Julia on clay is a tough matchup for Caroline.

Then she won Copenhagen.

I think the slam losses bothered her. A lot of what former players said is that she has to work on developing weapons. That led to Toronto & Cincy. She was trying to take the offensive.

She understood she had to go back to her game for the USO, and she did. She also went back to her game for New Haven, a tournament she cares about.

So I'm not a believer that she's fallen apart.
But I'm not sure, so like you guys who think she stinks now, I'll watch Beijing closely.
True, decent results on clay until it really mattered. At Roland Garros she loses in the third round to Hantuchova? A player who in three previous matches had never won a set against Caroline? I didn't expect Caroline to win at Roland Garros but she made the quarters last year, I was expecting at least that much again this year.

Eh, isn't winning Copenhagen pretty much a given? Look at the field, the second highest ranked player was Klara Zakopalova at 32. If Caroline had not won there it would have been a bit of an embarrassment.

What about Wimbledon? She completely collapsed against Cibulkova similar to how she completely collapsed against Na Li at the Australian Open this year.

I'm not saying that she has completely fallen apart but look at the way she is losing at the majors, there's a fundamental problem that needs to be fixed. At the end of 2010 and the beginning of 2011 it appeared that she was making tremendous strides at the premier 5's and mandatories but since the middle of March she has regressed to her pre summer 2010 form, maybe worse.

The most pressing concern is her serve and her inability to hold it. Blowing a third set 3-0 lead (2 breaks) against a player outside the top forty is completely unacceptable. Caroline could not have asked for a better start to that third set yet she completely imploded and gave the match away. Far too often lately when matches are close she looks scared and helpless. Fear and indecision are not qualities associated with number one. She needs to get her mojo back and she needs to do it quickly.

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post #3529 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 02:13 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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I understand that a lot of people have lesser expectations of Caroline on clay and grass but I am not one of them. Certainly she is better on hardcourts but I don't think that means she can not do well on other surfaces.
Indeed,part of all this depends on how one views Caroline.If one sees her as a Top 10-caliber player who had some flukishly-good results to get her to #1(e.g.,Dinara),then Caro's 2011 was QUITE nice by those standards.

However,if we listen to others such as Serena who claim that Caroline will become a dominant force in the WTA,a natural reaction is,"Okay,we're willing to wait a bit to witness that promise fulfilled but,if you don't mind,give us a ballpark figure on when that ascendancy is gonna happen."

Yeah,even some HOFers had Slam and Premier losses to Hantuchova types...but they were fairly rare....and those defeats aren't rare enough on Caro's results list yet

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post #3530 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 02:51 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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Indeed,part of all this depends on how one views Caroline.If one sees her as a Top 10-caliber player who had some flukishly-good results to get her to #1(e.g.,Dinara),then Caro's 2011 was QUITE nice by those standards.

However,if we listen to others such as Serena who claim that Caroline will become a dominant force in the WTA,a natural reaction is,"Okay,we're willing to wait a bit to witness that promise fulfilled but,if you don't mind,give us a ballpark figure on when that ascendancy is gonna happen."

Yeah,even some HOFers had Slam and Premier losses to Hantuchova types...but they were fairly rare....and those defeats aren't rare enough on Caro's results list yet
I think she got hot for about half a season and now has definitely cooled off arguably to below where she was pre-2nd half of 2010 hot streak. She's good enough to be in the top 10 as she was for over a year before her hot streak but I don't think she's good enough to dominate. Her defensive style leaves her a bit too vulnerable and she has other weaknesses as well.

Maybe I missed but I don't recall Serena or anyone like her talking about Caro becoming some dominant player. The only thing that comes to mind that's close to that is a general messages thread with a subject supposedly quoting Serena saying something like Serena: Wozniacki Can End Our Domination which was something Serena definitely didn't say in the article that article was referred to.
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post #3531 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 03:00 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

I thought she had a good clay season, except the loss to Hantuchova.
But she probably played too much before the FO.

But this hardcourt season, she didnt start it like every match mattered.
Even the way she played against Kanepi should beat Vinci & Mchale.

Next is the 1st mandatory since Madrid, then the YEC.

After the USO, these are the biggest tournaments between Wimbledon & the AO.

These 2 should show where Caroline is at.

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post #3532 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 03:02 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

tier I's shouldn't be her priority anyways, she needs to focus on getting results in slams. IMO it's better to do good at a slam and bomb out of a premier than to win a premier and bomb out of a slam. She needs to sort out her priorities better.
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post #3533 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 03:03 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

Here's a comparison of Caro's summer hard court results from 2009, 2010, and 2011:


2009
2nd round in LA (1st round bye) - lost to Cirstea 1-6 6-4 7-6 (5)
quarters in Cincy - lost to Dementieva 6-2 6-1
2nd round in Torono (1st round bye) - lost Zheng 7-5 6-3
Won New Haven
US Open final - lost to Kim 7-5 6-3, escaped against Kuznetsova in 4th round

2010
Won Copenhagen
3rd round in Cincy - lost to Bartoli 6-4 6-1
Won Montreal
Won New Haven
US Open semifinal - lost to Zvonareva 6-4 6-3

2011
2nd round in Toronto (1st round bye) - lost to Vinci 6-4 7-5
2nd round in Cincy (1st round bye) - lost to McHale 6-4 7-5
Won New Haven
US Open semifinal - lost to Serena 6-2 6-4, escaped against Kuznetsova in 4th round

Last edited by Protoss; Sep 30th, 2011 at 03:21 AM.
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post #3534 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 03:28 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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I think she got hot for about half a season and now has definitely cooled off arguably to below where she was pre-2nd half of 2010 hot streak. She's good enough to be in the top 10 as she was for over a year before her hot streak but I don't think she's good enough to dominate. Her defensive style leaves her a bit too vulnerable and she has other weaknesses as well.

Maybe I missed but I don't recall Serena or anyone like her talking about Caro becoming some dominant player. The only thing that comes to mind that's close to that is a general messages thread with a subject supposedly quoting Serena saying something like Serena: Wozniacki Can End Our Domination which was something Serena definitely didn't say in the article that article was referred to.
Yes,you DID miss it;Serena tweeted to Caro,"Girl,I'll enjoy watching you,in person,win all the big tournaments after I'm out of the game."

I might not have the wording 100% exactly right,but the spirit of the tweet is accurately portrayed above

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post #3535 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 08:49 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

The trouble is she set the bar so high for you guys through the summer of 2010 and winter of 2011. When it comes to making statements about her being worse than pre-summer 2010 and having high expectations for her on clay and grass and that she failed there - I'm more with Goldenlox.

Toronto didn't bother me. A long time not playing, Caro needd matchplay. So I half expected that. Cinci concerned me though.

But the thing that really concerns me about Caro this year is her failure to close matches out that she's been one step away from winning. I mean there's been these 3-setters especially when the set Caro has won has been like 6-1. With her fitness and we always used to think her mental strength - she should certainly not be letting slip away leads in the 3rd set.

I know what she says is true that players do try that bit harder against her now than they did before. But she used to be so mentally strong but the more this happens and if this pattern continues - players know that when they are down - to put a bit of pressure on her serve and she has cracked.

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post #3536 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 09:06 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

Beijing

[1] Wozniacki vs Hradecka
Medina Garrigues vs Gajdosova

Kanepi vs Zheng Saisai
Begu vs [14] Lisicki

[12] Peng vs Pennetta
Hantuchova vs Qualifier

Zhang Shuai vs Cibulkova
Jovanovski vs [7] Schiavone

[3] Zvonareva vs Bye
Zakopalova vs Petrova

Date Krumm vs Ivanovic
Dulgheru vs [16] Kuznetsova

[11] A. Radwanska vs Bye
Zheng Jie vs Brianti

Arvidsson vs A. Bondarenko
Bye vs [5] Kvitova

[6] Stosur vs Pironkova
Goerges vs Kirilenko

Errani vs Cetkovska
Paszek vs [10] Jankovic

[15] Vinci vs Marino
Dulko vs Qualifier

Hu Yue Yue vs Qualifier
Qualifier vs [4] Li Na

[8] Bartoli vs Benesova
Morita vs Qualifier

Qualifier vs Makarova
Safarova vs [9] Petkovic

[13] Pavlyuchenkova vs Qualifier
Peer vs Martinez Sanchez

Qualifier vs Hercog
Bye vs [2] Azarenka
....................................
OMG OMG what a horrible draw

Hradecka, Gajdosova, Kanepi/Lisicki
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post #3537 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 09:09 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

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tier I's shouldn't be her priority anyways, she needs to focus on getting results in slams. IMO it's better to do good at a slam and bomb out of a premier than to win a premier and bomb out of a slam. She needs to sort out her priorities better.
No - I think all T1s and slams are important. Caro is a player who likes matchplay. So there is no evidence to suggest that bombimg out early and not trying at T1s will help her do better at slams. Everyone and his dog has theories - but Caro's priorities are to win every tournament she plays with a slam as the top priority and that's not the problem. Although she does needs to sort out her clay season schedule where I have no expectations of her doing well at RG on her worst surface anyway.

Caroline Wozniacki

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post #3538 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 09:21 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

-----------------
[15] Vinci
Marino
[WC] Dulko
[Q]
[WC] Hu Yue-Yue
[Q]
[Q]
[4] Li
-----------------

What a draw, eh!
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post #3539 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 09:23 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

From the start of 2009 through July 2010 Caro made the quarters or better in 50% (6/12) of the premier 5 or greater hard court tournaments she played. I excluded the YEC from those figures as the Wta counts the round robin stage as the quarters and you don't have to beat anyone at the YEC itself to get to the round robin stage.

Caro has now gone 5 premier 5 or greater hard court tournaments without making a final. That's the same # as between the 2009 US Open final and the 2010 Indian Wells final. From the 2010 Indian Wells final to the 2011 Indian Wells final Caro didn't go more than 2 premier 5 or greater hard court tournaments without making a final.

Last edited by Protoss; Sep 30th, 2011 at 09:30 AM.
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post #3540 of 5027 (permalink) Old Sep 30th, 2011, 10:44 AM
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Re: Danish Delight - Caroline Wozniacki thread - vol 4

I still say her clay runup to the FO was a continuation of her solid year.
She's just better on hardcourt.
Its those 2 slam losses that were bad, not the other results.
But the FO & W losses led to the 2 bad losses in Toronto & Cincy. She kept hearing she had to change.

Beijing should be a good test because Kanepi/Lisicki looming early.

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