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post #1 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:08 AM Thread Starter
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Monica vs Players-She-Can't-Overpower

I was looking at the thread on head-to-heads, and suddenly, something jumped up and bit me on the leg. Monica Seles had a VERY poor record against players she can't overpower.

Really? You say with appropriate skepticism. After all, first you have to FIND players she can't overpower, and indeed this is difficult. Three, however, come to mind. Serena Williams, Venus Williams, and Lindsay Davenport. Monica's combined record vs the three?

5-23

That's right. Five wins, TWENTY-THREE losses.

Yet, if Monica has even a LITTLE power advantage, say as in Mary Pierce or Jennifer Capriati, the head-to-heads swing to Monica's favor. 9-5 vs Jenn, 5-4 over Mary Pierce.

Meaning? Who knows? Did Monica's success come about largely because she hit harder than everyone else? Her greatest success came during a period when she was the hardest hitter on the tour. That's not the same as her greatest success came BECAUSE she was the hardest hitter on the tour.

My conclusion? Not enough data. But it IS interesting to note.

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Last edited by Volcana; Nov 23rd, 2003 at 02:31 PM.
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post #2 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:24 AM
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I think in a way the sisters are simply better not just in the power department. You know it doesn't have to be a Monica to have a lopsided losing record against the sisters. As for Davenport, Monica didn't or couldn't have the kind of mental edge she had over Pierce, Martinez, Sanchez as she had never faced Davy prior to the stabbing. So when she came back, Lindsay had no fear for Monica. Conchi and Arantxa were already traumatised by their past memories with Monica. That same can be said about Jennifer. She may be the same age as Lindsay but she debuted much earlier and so she knew how dominating Monica was back then. Those things combined I believe lead to the h2h records Monica has against them.
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post #3 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:25 AM
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monica beat venus in the oz 2002 and monica hit the ball just as hard some points harder...my point is monica isn't fit and can't get to all the balls but she has the power

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post #4 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Seiya
I think in a way the sisters are simply better not just in the power department. You know it doesn't have to be a Monica to have a lopsided losing record against the sisters. As for Davenport, Monica didn't or couldn't have the kind of mental edge she had over Pierce, Martinez, Sanchez as she had never faced Davy prior to the stabbing. So when she came back, Lindsay had no fear for Monica. Conchi and Arantxa were already traumatised by their past memories with Monica. That same can be said about Jennifer. She may be the same age as Lindsay but she debuted much earlier and so she knew how dominating Monica was back then. Those things combined I believe lead to the h2h records Monica has against them.
I think Lindsay was affected by Monica's great legacy the first two times they played. She had match points in both of those encounters but couldn't close out either of them. After that, her superior game and power were too much for Monica and she dominated the rivalry.
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post #5 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:12 AM
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Monica and Lindsay have had some extremely close matches in the past, and in my opinion, it's Linsday's serve that let her pull the matches out. Monica just can't win the easy service games as often as Lindsay or the sisters can.

In terms of groundstroke-making ability, Monica hits as hard as the sisters, and even harder when the ball is really in her power zone. But again, it is the superior serves of the girls, as well as their speed, that prevent Monica from winning these matches.

I believe Lindsay definitely hits the ball a little harder than Monica. However there are things about Monica's groundstrokes that still make them difficult to return: short backswing/taking the ball early, flat balls hit deep that carry through the court... and of course the angles.

Of course her lack of mobility is a huge factor as well. I don't think it's a matter of Monica not being able to over-power the three mentioned opponents... it's everything else, in my opinion: serve, speed, stamina.
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post #6 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:12 AM
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monica also won because she was pretty fast around the court then

look at her h2h against martina h. 5-16.
she definitely could overpower martina, but martina sure could outmanoeuver her

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post #7 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:23 AM
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I don't think it's the power that does it to Monica, it's the players that have use power AND angles. Remember, Monica isn't the best mover. I've always said that Jennifer is the only "big babe" that doesn't hit angles. She hits it hard, but her angles aren't as good as Lindsay, Venus, Serena.
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post #8 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 05:34 AM
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The pretty much sums her 2000 year. Practically beats everyone below her but not above her. These days there many more powerful players than her, ie - Petrova, which is why I unfortunately think there is an unsubstantial amount of petrol left in the tank
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post #9 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 06:50 AM
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Lindsay and the Williams are also the players who stand out as actually having a serve that Monica can't simply demolish.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #10 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyAidanm
The pretty much sums her 2000 year. Practically beats everyone below her but not above her. These days there many more powerful players than her, ie - Petrova, which is why I unfortunately think there is an unsubstantial amount of petrol left in the tank
LOL! Every time I hear the name "Petrova" on this board it is invariably someone making a comparison worth laughing at.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #11 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 06:59 AM
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And I'm sure Martina Hingis could overpower Monica, that's why Martina has a big lead in the H2H apartment right?

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post #12 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
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And I'm sure Martina Hingis could overpower Monica, that's why Martina has a big lead in the H2H apartment right?
Martina Hingis was just such a great tatical player - she knew what shot to hit against Monica where and when - and she would get Monica all out of sorts; Monica would not be as set up for her shots. Therefore Monica's shots were not as potent as norm. Martina Hingis played great tennis - and she could slice and dice, drop shot, lob - tons of variety, and Monica had a hard time dealing with the change up shots.

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post #13 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 10:12 AM
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Martina and Monica.

Give me a Monica with her pre-stabbing speed and I'll give you an even head-to-head with the aforementioned players.

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post #14 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hingis-seles
Martina and Monica.

Give me a Monica with her pre-stabbing speed and I'll give you an even head-to-head with the aforementioned players.
that won't make a difference
she's aged 10 years and NOTHING can bring that back.
you gonna be slower cos you're older.

you guys got to stop living in cloud cuckoo land.

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post #15 of 105 (permalink) Old Nov 23rd, 2003, 11:54 AM
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Interesting.....as others have said it ain´t just the power. It´s the power AND movement that has been dooming her against the other big-babes.

Plus Lindsay and the Williamses have serves that negate Monica´s magic on the return.

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