Is Clijsters the best the Williams have or could have played? - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 03:42 AM Thread Starter
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Is Clijsters the best the Williams have or could have played?

To me, Kim is overrated. I never say any player who's no.3 in the world is anything other than a great player, and Kim has proved that she is. She's tested - and beaten - both of the Williams'.

But to me, Kim's game is not that of a future no.1. She doesn't have the acceleration in her shots. She's a curious mix between Hingis and Serena. She has Hingis' shot production and a similar technique. Yet Kim has far less finesse and talent than Hingis. At the same time, however, she's quicker than Hingis and far stronger. She's built like a European version of Serena Williams, which is to say that she's not QUITE as formidable an athlete as Serena (or Venus).

So I feel Kim is not QUITE as athletic as Serena and NOT quite as clever as Hingis.

Like Hingis, Kim's forehand is where she lacks acceleration. She can time power very well with her immense strength, but she can't attack forehand-to-forehand without losing length (that wasn't meant to rhyme! LOL).

So, is Kim more of a threat to the Williams' than say, Aranxta in her prime would have been?

To be honest, I think Aranxta of 1994 would been able to beat both of the Williams' on clay, and frustrated them on other surfaces. She had a game that didn't play into their hands and was designed to frustrate and counter. In her prime she had just boundless energy, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Aranxta NEVER gave up. You could knock her down love and love and she'd still come back fighting the next time. She would willingly run miles to win a point, and had the heart and courage of a lion.

I pick Aranxta because Graf and Seles were both dominant champions, as was Navratlova. I'm interested in Aranxta because she was in many ways in Kim's position in the early and mid-90s. Sabatini would be another candidate.

To me, so many of the players lose to Venus and Serena because they simply don't believe in themselves enough to take advantage of the chances they are given. Mauresmo, Capriati, Kim, Justine, Davenport are all the same.

I just think players in years gone by, unique players like Aranxta, would have ACTUALLY provided stiffer opposition than those of today.
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 03:44 AM
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A curious mix between Hingis and Serena is supposed to be a bad thing?

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 03:50 AM Thread Starter
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Did you read the line when I said she's not quite as good in either department?

Of course it's not a bad thing, that's why she's no.3 in the world. But it's not enough to seriously challenge them, in my opinion. Both Serena and Venus are too good and match up to her game too well from her perspective.
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffica Greles
Did you read the line when I said she's not quite as good in either department?
Right. And she's also better at the Hingis things than Williams, better at the Williams things than Hingis. She'll be fine. Her results are an exact mirror of Venus at the same age. 1 Slam Final, career high ranking of #3.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 04:30 AM
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good point
and i agree with you as ASV has a very good record with both of the for that reason
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 07:43 AM
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I dont think ASV would have been better competition than Kim or Justine today. I think she would be easily overpowered. When Venus and Serena were just starting out they had tough matches with her, and now they have improved so much i think they would beat her most of the time.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 08:45 AM
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I think Kim may be the best in terms of absolute ability in a way...but ASV posed more problems for W/S at the time because they were more or less just starting and not as good as they are now.

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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 02:18 PM
 
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ASV was far superior to Kim mentally in her prime. The fact that she never gave up on anything was key to her winning those grand slam titles. Kim is still getting better though and I see no reason why she can't be that good too.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kart
ASV was far superior to Kim mentally in her prime. The fact that she never gave up on anything was key to her winning those grand slam titles. Kim is still getting better though and I see no reason why she can't be that good too.
ITA Arantxa was definitely better in her prime then Kim is now. Who knows how many matches Arantxa came back from and I don't think I've ever seen her choke in a match. IMO the Kim today is like the Arantxa in 92-93, Arantxa wasn't a grand slam winner but she was one hell of a consistent player and was a threat to the top 2 as well. But yes I think Kim can definitely improve.

As far as matching the Williams' sisters. Arantxa always gave them tough matches, especially Venus. When Venus was at her best at the end of the 2000 (when she had that winning streak) Arantxa took Venus to 3 tough sets at the Olympics and even last year when Arantxa was not even close to her best she took Venus to 3 sets as well!

ARANTXA SANCHEZ-VICARIO...Tennis legend in body and heart!

1989, 1994, 1998 French Open Champion, 1994 U.S. Open Champion
1994, 1995 Australian Open Finalist, 1995, 1996 Wimbledon Finalist
4- Time Olympic Medalist, 5-Time Fed Cup Winning Team, Inducted into Hall of Fame in 2007!!!
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 03:14 PM
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Hingis vs Venus 10-9

Hingis vs Serena, 6-7

That's all that needs to be said. Results don't lie.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyP
Hingis vs Venus 10-9

Hingis vs Serena, 6-7

That's all that needs to be said. Results don't lie.
No they don't-- but you conveniently omitted the fact that Venus won 4 of their last 5 matches.

Venus Williams (USA) vs. Martina Hingis (SUI)
1997-03-17 Key Biscayne Hardcourt R32 Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-2
1997-07-28 San Diego Hardcourt R16 Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-2 6-1
1997-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-0 6-4
1998-01-12 Sydney Hardcourt R16 Venus Williams (USA) 3-6 6-4 7-5
1998-03-02 Indian Wells Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-0 7-6(7)
1998-03-16 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 5-7 6-2
1998-05-04 Rome Clay F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 2-6 6-3
1998-05-25 Roland Garros Clay QF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 6-4
1999-05-03 Rome Clay SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-4 1-6 6-4
1999-08-02 San Diego Hardcourt F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-0
1999-08-30 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-1 4-6 6-3
1999-09-27 Munich Indoor Carpet SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 6-7(6) 9-7
1999-10-11 Zurich Indoor Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 6-4
1999-11-15 Chase Championships Indoor Carpet SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 7-6(2)
2000-06-26 Wimbledon Grass QF Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 4-6 6-4
2000-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 4-6 6-3 7-5
2001-01-15 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-1 6-1
2001-03-19 Miami Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 7-6(6)
2002-04-29 Hamburg Clay SF Venus Williams (USA) 7-5 6-3
Martina Hingis (SUI) leads 10:9
Hard: Martina Hingis (SUI) leads 7:5
Clay: Tied 2:2
Grass: Venus Williams (USA) leads 1:0
Indoor: Venus Williams (USA) leads 2:1



Topic related, ASV definitely frustrated the Williames-- I don't see Kim doing this yet or if ever waaaaaaaaaa


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Last edited by Infiniti2001; May 10th, 2003 at 03:56 PM.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 04:09 PM
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I get what you are saying Steffica.

Venus and Serena are like Monica and Steffi. Four very dominant players who separated themselves from the pack.

What Arantxa did, which Kim didn't, was that she had won a Slam at age 17, almost setting the scene for Arantxa's career. Obviously, things are tougher today, but Arantxa was a GS champ at a very early age which must have added to her confidence and mental toughness, which impacted on her future career.

I think Arantxa and Monica are THE most mentally toughest women out there. Kim may improve, but honestly, I don't think any of today's players (not even my beloved Jen) can match up to their level.

Kim does not seem as much of a threat to Venus/Serena as Arantxa was.

I mean even though Monica dominated their H2H (vs Arantxa) their matches were either close or very tight.

I can see Kim winning Slams, but I just don't know when.

In regards to Arantxa vs Williams, Arantxa 1994 vs Venus 2000 and Serena 2002 would have been a dream match-up.

Arantxa was the ultimate defensive player who had that extra ability to attack and place the ball extremely well. It was her speed that set a new level for on-court fitness (along with Monica's power and Steffi's athleticism).

Arantxa would have defnitely won some matches.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2003, 04:17 PM
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Great post DEE
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2003, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian
As far as matching the Williams' sisters. Arantxa always gave them tough matches, especially Venus. When Venus was at her best at the end of the 2000 (when she had that winning streak) Arantxa took Venus to 3 tough sets at the Olympics and even last year when Arantxa was not even close to her best she took Venus to 3 sets as well!
Not to mention French open 2000 . Amazing to think that Venus would go on to win Wimbledon a month later.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old May 11th, 2003, 02:08 PM
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I think Kim's game is that of the current number 2.

2000-2007: My "Kim years". My best years as a tennis fan. A few bitter losses but a lot of great matches and great wins. Thank you, Kim Clijsters!
26.03.2009: More Kim years to come!
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