Venus Williams - Over the last five years, the best clay court player in the world - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Venus Williams - Over the last five years, the best clay court player in the world

I've been having a look at the tenniscorner.net archives. I noticed something that makes me think that our biases (and her ability on hardcourts and grass), have led us to under-estimate Venus Williams as a clay court player. Since she made the U.S.Open final in 1997, Venus Williams has been the best clay court player in the world.

Whoa. WHOOOAA!!! Obviously, I wouldn't have said anything like that without some data to back it up. Below are the finalists of the six biggest clay events since Venus made the US Open final.

If you look, you'll see that Venus had made a Tier II clay final or better four out of those five years. No one else has done that. Besides Venus and the much missed Martina Hingis. Monica, Amelie and Mary Pierce have all made clay finals three of those five years. So who's WON the most Tier II or better clay tournaments since Venus made the '97 US Open final?

Martina Hingis. But she's no lnoger an active player. Among the 'actives'?

Venus Williams. At four wins.

Again, this is Tier II or better. The Sarasotas, Estorils and Madrids of the world I'm not counting. That's too much ananlysis of fields. Tier II or better on clay is Roland Garros, Rome, Berlin, Charleston/Hilton Head, Hamburg and Amelia Island.
Code:
1998 Hilton Head     Coetzer          def. Spirlea
1998 Amelia Island   Pierce           def. Martinez
1998 Hamburg         Hingis           def. Novotna
1998 Rome            Hingis           def. V.Williams
1998 Berlin          Martinez         def. Mauresmo
1998 Roland Garros   Sanchez-Vicario  def. Seles
                                                              
1999 Hilton Head     Hingis           def. Kournikova
1999 Amelia Island   Seles            def. Dragomir Ilie
1999 Hamburg         V.Williams       def. Pierce 
1999 Rome            V.Williams       def. Pierce
1999 Berlin          Hingis           def. Halard-Decugis
1999 Roland Garros   Graf             def. Hingis
                                                        
2000 Amelia Island   Seles            def. Martinez
2000 Hilton Head     Pierce           def. Sanchez-Vicario
2000 Hamburg         Hingis           def. Sanchez-Vicario
2000 Berlin          Martinez         def. Coetzer
2000 Rome            Seles            def. Mauresmo
2000 Roland Garros   Pierce           def. Martinez
                                                  
2001 Amelia Island   Mauresmo         def. Coetzer
2001 Charleston      Capriati         def. Hingis
2001 Hamburg         V.Williams       def. Shaughnessy
2001 Berlin          Mauresmo         def. Capriati
2001 Rome            Dokic            def. Mauresmo
2001 Roland Garros   Capriati         def. Clijsters
                                                       
2002 Amelia Island   V.Williams       def. Henin-Hardenne
2002 Charleston      Majoli           def. Schnyder
2002 Hamburg         Clijsters        def. V.Williams
2002 Berlin          Henin-Hardenne   def. S.Williams
2002 Rome            S.Williams       def. Henin-Hardenne
2002 Roland Garros   S.Williams       def. V.Williams
Now, name the RG winners since Venus made the US open final?
Oops.
Okay, maybe she's not the best.
But she performed more consistently, at a high level, on clay, than anyone else on tour for the past five years. Among the active players. Gotta give it up for Martina Hingis.

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Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Mar 31st, 2003 at 04:00 PM.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 03:17 PM
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That is good news to hear about the Goddes and it gives me hope for this year's RG event as well.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 03:30 PM
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Hingis reached finals of Tier I or II in 98,99,2000 and 2001 4 out of 5 years. Last year she could only play one event. Hamburg semis losing to Venus. So Martina has acomplished the same feat as Venus.

I dont think doing Tier II or even Tier I finals on clay events means that you are the best clay court player.
Grand slams are the events that count the most.

Anyway Venus reached finals of RG last year so a win could be no longer away from her in the future.

Gabriela Sabatini 2006 HOF
18 Grand Slam SFs, Won 27 titles, 1 GS Sin, 1 GS in Dubs,2 Masters
Sabatini vs Martinez ?
Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 9
Straight Seasons in the top ten: Sabatini 10 Conchita 6
Seasons in the top 5: Sabatini 6 Conchita 5
Straight seasons in the top 5: Sabatini 6 Conchita 4
Tier II and above titles
Sabatini 24 Martinez 17
Record at the Masters
Sabatini has 2 titles 2 Runner up and 3 SF
Martinez has 0 titles, 0 RU, and 0 Sf
Record against the best players
Sabatini 40% Martinez 21%
Head to Head
Sabatini leads 9-6 over Martinez
FWTT Hard 111(111 + ny)Carpet 104(104 + ny)Clay 107(107 + 4) Grass 100(100 ny)
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 03:45 PM
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Volcana, I get Hingis with five Tier II or better clay titles to Venus' four. 2 in 1998, 2 in 1999, 1 in 2000.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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petosp, King Lindsay - You're both right, and appropriate corrections were made to the initial post. I could have tried to weasel out and say I meant active players, but I didn't. I just couldn't seem to see 99 Hilton Head. (I think Anna's name in Tier I final wierded me out.) I've kinda given up hope, but I wish Martina would return. Healthy and in 1998 form.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 04:03 PM
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if Capriati can, maybe Martina can too. It's too early to give up hope.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 04:06 PM
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Last year she really proved to alot of people that she can have really great results, but if she was the greatest the last five years, wouldn't she have on the French in one of those five years? Plus she lost in the first round of the French in 2001, in straight sets too. So I say she has been really good the last five years, but not the best.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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yukon145 - Note the last few lines of the initial post.
Quote:
Now, name the RG winners since Venus made the US open final?
Oops.
Okay, maybe she's not the best.
But she performed more consistently, at a high level, on clay, than anyone else on tour for the past five years. Among the active players. Gotta give it up for Martina Hingis.
It was just a lead in to some facts of interest to Venus fans.

Isn't it interesting though, that the two players who've won the most big tournaments on clay the past five years have both failed to win RG, and both have made the final?

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 05:10 PM
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Volcana, I'm not bashing Venus at all. I enjoy watching her play most of the time and cheer for her when she's not playing one of my favs. I'm just stating my feelings about her as a clay court player.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 05:16 PM
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Hi there, does anyone remember Jelena Dokic? Barbara Schett???

WTA TOUR
ELENA DEMENTIEVA
KIM CLIJSTERS
ALSO STARRING
THE GIRLS ON TOUR!

ASAGOE~BOVINA~JANKOVIC~MOLIK
MYSKINA~SCHNYDER~ZVONAREVA

THE YOUNG GUNS

BACSINSZKY~CHAKVATADZE~IVANOVIC
JACKSON~KIRILENKO~LINETSKAYA
MAKAROVA~MIRZA


THE COMEBACK KIDS

BEYGELZIMER~DOKIC~HARKLEROAD
SPREM~VAKULENKO

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 05:19 PM
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interesting, indeed, and hopefully success on clay will continue with a RG win in the near future.

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Federer Blake Fish Roddick Grosjean Bryans x2

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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dava_russianrule - Name two players who's previous results indicate GS winning talent, but who through, stubborness, lack of discipline or sheer cussedness, are languishing and losing on tour.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 05:56 PM
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You're looking for Jelena Dokic and Barbara Schett aren't you. What I meant was those are the players who quite easily beat Venus in RG, thats all.

WTA TOUR
ELENA DEMENTIEVA
KIM CLIJSTERS
ALSO STARRING
THE GIRLS ON TOUR!

ASAGOE~BOVINA~JANKOVIC~MOLIK
MYSKINA~SCHNYDER~ZVONAREVA

THE YOUNG GUNS

BACSINSZKY~CHAKVATADZE~IVANOVIC
JACKSON~KIRILENKO~LINETSKAYA
MAKAROVA~MIRZA


THE COMEBACK KIDS

BEYGELZIMER~DOKIC~HARKLEROAD
SPREM~VAKULENKO

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 06:00 PM
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i don't recall the Roland Garros where Venus lost to Dokic. Must've missed that one.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 31st, 2003, 06:00 PM
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Talk about "Double Jeopardy"! lol

"I wouldn't even stoop so low as to get even with a wacky character like you!"
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