Ranking the 'elite' against each other: 2003 - TennisForum.com
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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Ranking the 'elite' against each other: 2003

Enough of the year has gone by that I think we can measure the players based on just this year. The 'Race to the Chase' approach. However, this is a different sort of ranking system. It only really measures out current top twelve players. It's designed to ameliorate, to an extent,
the differneces caused by players playing different numbers of tournaments. My interest is in trying to figure out who's being held up inthe rankings by beating up on lesser lights, or by playing a lot, as opposed to those who are actually beating top players. Also, the effects of an easy draw don't show up so much with this method. You only get credit for beating the top 12, and failure to beat players ranked lower than #12 is punished heavily.

The points work this way

+1 Win over 'elite' player
-1 Loss to 'elite' player
-2 Loss to no-elite player

Walkovers don't count
Retirements do

Here are the records for the current top 12, this year, acording to this method

Code:
Serena - (+6)

03 Jan 2003 Hopman Cup       R1 W CLIJSTERS      7-5 6-3   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  SF W CLIJSTERS      4-6 6-3 7-5   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  FR W V.WILLIAMS     7-6 3-6 6-4   
03 Feb 2003 Paris            FR W MAURESMO       6-3 6-2   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            SF W CLIJSTERS      6-4 6-2   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            SF W CAPRIATI       4-6 6-4 6-1   

Kim - (+2)

03 Jan 2003 Hopman Cup       R1 L S.WILLIAMS     5-7 3-6   
06 Jan 2003 Sydney           QF W RUBIN          6-1 6-2   
06 Jan 2003 Sydney           SF W HENIN-HARDENNE 6-2 6-3   
06 Jan 2003 Sydney           FR W DAVENPORT      6-4 6-3   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  QF W MYSKINA        6-2 6-4   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  SF L S.WILLIAMS     6-4 3-6 5-7   
10 Feb 2003 Antwerp          SF W HENIN-HARDENNE 6-2 7-6   
10 Feb 2003 Antwerp          FR L V.WILLIAMS     2-6 4-6   
24 Feb 2003 Scottsdale       FR L SUGIYAMA       6-3 5-7 4-6
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     QF W RUBIN          6-2 6-3   
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     FR W DAVENPORT      6-4 7-5   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            QF W DOKIC          6-2 6-0   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            SF L S.WILLIAMS     4-6 2-6   

Venus - (+1)
     
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  QF W HANTUCHOVA     6-4 6-3   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  SF W HENIN-HARDENNE 6-3 6-3   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  FR L S.WILLIAMS     6-7 6-3 4-6   
10 Feb 2003 Antwerp          SF W HANTUCHOVA     6-1 6-4   
10 Feb 2003 Antwerp          FR W CLIJSTERS      6-2 6-4   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            16 L SHAUGHNESSY    6-7 1-6

Justine - (0)

06 Jan 2003 Sydney           SF L CLIJSTERS      2-6 3-6   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  16 W DAVENPORT      7-5 5-7 9-7   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  SF L V.WILLIAMS     3-6 3-6   
10 Feb 2003 Antwerp          SF L CLIJSTERS      2-6 6-7
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            QF W MYSKINA        6-1 6-4   
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            SF W CAPRIATI       7-5 4-6 6-4   
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            FR W SELES          4-6 7-6 7-5   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            QF L RUBIN          3-6 2-6   

Amelie (-3)

03 Feb 2003 Paris            FR L WILLIAMS       3-6 2-6   
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            SF L SELES          3-6 2-2 Ret  
19 Mar 2003 Miami            16 L RUBIN          0-6 2-6   

Lindsay (-4)
     
06 Jan 2003 Sydney           QF W HANTUCHOVA     6-4 3-6 7-6   
06 Jan 2003 Sydney           FR L CLIJSTERS      4-6 3-6   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  16 L HENIN-HARDENNE 5-7 7-5 7-9   
27 Jan 2003 Tokyo            FR W SELES          6-7 6-1 6-2   
24 Feb 2003 Scottsdale       16 L SUGIYAMA       6-7 6-4 3-6
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     SF W CAPRIATI       6-4 4-6 6-4   
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     FR L CLIJSTERS      4-6 5-7   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            16 L BARTOLI        0-6 Ret

Seles (-4)

13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  64 L KOUKALOVA       7-6 5-7 3-6
27 Jan 2003 Tokyo            SF W RUBIN           4-6 6-4 6-2
27 Jan 2003 Tokyo            FR L DAVENPORT       7-6 1-6 2-6   
10 Feb 2003 Doha             16 L KRASNOROUTSKAYA 5-7 5-7
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            SF W MAURESMO        6-3 2-2 Ret  
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            FR L HENIN-HARDENNE  6-4 6-7 5-7   

Chanda (-5)

06 Jan 2003 Sydney           QF L CLIJSTERS      1-6 2-6   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  16 L MYSKINA        6-4 4-6 1-6   
27 Jan 2003 Tokyo            SF L SELES          6-4 4-6 2-6   
24 Feb 2003 Scottsdale       16 L GRANVILLE      6-4 2-6 1-6
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     QF L CLIJSTERS      2-6 3-6   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            16 W MAURESMO       6-0 6-2   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            QF W HENIN-HARDENNE 6-3 6-2   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            SF L CAPRIATI          

Jenn (-6)

06 Jan 2003 Sydney           16 L PANOVA         6-4 4-6 5-7
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open 128 L WEINGARTNER    6-2 6-7 4-6
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            SF L HENIN-HARDENNE 5-7 6-4 4-6   
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     SF L DAVENPORT      4-6 6-4 4-6   
19 Mar 2003 Miami            SF W RUBIN           

Anastasia  (-8)   

06 Jan 2003 Sydney           32 L BOVINA         3-6 5-7
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  16 W RUBIN          4-6 6-4 6-1   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  QF L CLIJSTERS      2-6 4-6   
17 Feb 2003 Dubai            QF L HENIN-HARDENNE 1-6 4-6   
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     64 L KUZNETSOVA     4-6 7-6 3-6
19 Mar 2003 Miami            64 L TAYLOR         5-7 4-6

Daniela (-9)

06 Jan 2003 Sydney           QF L DAVENPORT      4-6 6-3 6-7   
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open  QF L WILLIAMS       4-6 3-6   
03 Feb 2003 Paris            QF L DEMENTIEVA     5-7 3-6
10 Feb 2003 Antwerp          SF L WILLIAMS       1-6 4-6   
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     16 L COETZER        4-6 4-6
19 Mar 2003 Miami            64 L MOLIK          6-2 5-7 0-6

Jelena (-11)

27 Jan 2003 Tokyo            QF L RAYMOND        4-6 2-6
03 Feb 2003 Paris            QF L DANIILIDOU     1-6 3-6
10 Feb 2003 Antwerp          32 L SUGIYAMA       5-7 7-5 3-6
24 Feb 2003 Scottsdale       16 L SHAUGHNESSY    4-6 2-6
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells     64 L RITTNER        1-6 7-5 3-6
19 Mar 2003 Miami            QF L CLIJSTERS      2-6 0-6
NOTE: I don't personally like this system, because it ranks Kim ahead of Venus. But I didn't know it would come out that way when I started. I'm still strictly 'Venus #1', but the numbers are what they are.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Mar 30th, 2003 at 10:19 PM.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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So the rankings this way would be (tie-breaker is who's ranked higher now) ....

Code:
01 (+6) Serena

02 (+2) Kim
03 (+1) Venus
 
04 (00) Justine

05 (-3) Amelie
06 (-4) Lindsay
07 (-4) Seles
08 (-5) Chanda
09 (-6) Jenn

10 (-8) Anastasia
11 (-9) Daniela

12 (-11) Jelena
Remember, this is just 2003

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Mar 30th, 2003 at 10:19 PM.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 05:18 PM
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Volcana. Interesting.
One thing though...Jenn beat Chanda in Miami. So she should be -6, not -7.

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It's alright

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 05:20 PM
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Try divisor rankings in that sense, i.e. divide your points by the number of "event"-counting points. Like Seles earned her -6 in 6 events, while Davenpot in 8, which, in a sense, makes Davenport "less" negative..

Also, equating loss to Serena and loss to Hantuchova is somewhat irrational.. It's like comparing someone succeeding at predicting something as rare as full solar eclipse with predicting a rain.

"..just knowing that as long as i choose life, there is hope."

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ys
Also, equating loss to Serena and loss to Hantuchova is somewhat irrational.. It's like comparing someone succeeding at predicting something as rare as full solar eclipse with predicting a rain.
Maybe a loss to Serena should be counted as -0. Or a 3 set loss to Serena could be counted as -0. There's not much shame in it.

You have to answer for Santino, Carlo.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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The point about losses to Serena is reasonable. Hell, losing to Serena probably shouldn't be as bad as losing to Venus or Kim. I'll have to think about that.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 05:39 PM
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Volcana, sorry to be picky, but I think you're still miscalculated Jenn.
________________________
Jenn (-5)

06 Jan 2003 Sydney 16 L PANOVA 6-4 4-6 5-7
13 Jan 2003 Australian Open 128 L WEINGARTNER 6-2 6-7 4-6
17 Feb 2003 Dubai SF L HENIN-HARDENNE 5-7 6-4 4-6
05 Mar 2003 Indian Wells SF L DAVENPORT 4-6 6-4 4-6
19 Mar 2003 Miami SF W RUBIN
________________________


Shouldn't that be -6 for her?

L Panova (-2)
L Weingartner (-2)
L Henin-Hardenne (-1)
L Davenport (-1)
W Rubin (+1)
L S. Williams (-1)

Little darlin'

Here comes the sun

It's alright

You can come on out


SERENA WILLIAMS - 2005 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION!!!


OFFICIAL BISHOP OF THE ROYAL COURT!

Andy_ & I are Zelda's Guys of the Decade!!!
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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vs1 - No problem at all. Corrections are gratefully accepted. It might even be fair to say I've always beena bad judge of Jenn's ability, so it's no surprise I can't add where she's concerned.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 06:18 PM
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interesting analysis
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 06:22 PM
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A loss is a loss, however I do think a win over Serena should garner more points. However since she has yet to lose, that point is moot.

I am not conceited, I am just convinced
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 09:01 PM
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Interesting. Though as the top 12 keep on changing it could be terribly complicated working who was ranked what when?

If you want to measure quality wins you could just rely on the quality points alone to give some idea as these are heavily biased to top ranked players - though I don't know how to just pull out the 2003 total. The yearly totals duplicate most of your ranking apart from Daniela and Lindsay's recent performance not showing. Both systems fail to allow for injury effects but they both fail in the same way.

1 Serena Williams 2503
2 Venus Williams 1668
3 Kim Clijsters 1564
4 Justine Henin-Hardenne 1191
5 Amelie Mauresmo 939
6 Chanda Rubin 925
7 Daniela Hantuchova 893
8 Jennifer Capriati 892
9 Lindsay Davenport 868
10 Anastasia Myskina 786
11 Jelena Dokic 746
12 Monica Seles 653
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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Actually, 'twelve' is a result. I was looking for the big break inthe points. Monica's on the wrong side of the break, but as our most accomplished active player, I bowed to reality (and the fact that she defends less than 100 points in the big clay events).

What I find intersting is that this really isolates the middle group that beats up on each other. Amelie, Lindsay, Monica, Chanda and Jenn.

The top four distinctly better than that group, and the last three are definitely less consistent.

Proud to be an American
Not blind. Not uninformed. We are party to atrocities. But the response of the world after 9/11 is worth noting. Even our most dire enemies offered aid. We should all be so lucky.

Last edited by Volcana; Mar 30th, 2003 at 10:23 PM.
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 2003, 11:49 PM
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thats why I really feel an average system is needed
take the number of tournaments played (17 max) and average the points.

that way if you get injured, your rank wont fall so low. also it will be quality over quantity
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