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post #31 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Originally Posted by eDonkey View Post
And a very sad 4th place player, who has lost almost to anyone in that tournament.
Well, sport is about ordering things, not everybody can win or be happy.



Watching the current Errani vs JJ, Sara would be one those players who would be glad to be in 3rd place match.
Even though this is a rubber match, it significant for Errani, she is doing everything to win it.

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post #32 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 08:56 PM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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You could right that it is rare, I don't know how many times YEC results has changed the top 3 spots.
It's not rare for the YEC to shuffle the top 10 a little bit, but it's not the YEC in its entirety we're talking about here. It's one match, and we'll have to have two players within ~200 pts of each other, who both have chance of taking the #1 spot, and have them make the SFs and both lose there. Realistically, it's a once-in-a-million scenario.

Here's 2011 for you... before the YEC*:
1. Wozniacki 7395
2. Sharapova 6370
3. Kvitova 5970
4. Azarenka 5750
*Points from the previous YEC dropped.

After:
1. Wozniacki 7485
2. Kvitova 7370
3. Azarenka 6520
4. Sharapova 6510

All Wozniacki had to do to secure the #1 spot was to win one RR match. Which she did, and nothing more. Kvitova won the whole thing but finished at #2 just short of Wozniacki.

But note how close Azarenka and Sharapova are. What happened that year was that Sharapova played two RR matches, lost both, and then withdrew with no chances of making the SFs, citing an ankle injury from Tokyo that had suddenly reinvented itself. Azarenka then had to play an alternate, Bartoli, in her 3rd RR match which was a dead rubber for her. In case you don't remember; she tanked it in three sets and couldn't care less. Was booed, deservedly.

Both Sharapova and Azarenka have people in their camps who know basic math and who can tally the what-if ranking scenarios. Neither of them (Sharapova and Azarenka) cared enough about the #3 spot to give a shit about the matches that would potentially have ensured them that spot. (Azarenka made the final, but without that she would have ended up #4. Sharapova could have secured the #3 spot by just playing her last RR match but chose not to).

This is the best example I can provide, because it really is just such an implausible scenario and nothing closer to a #1 vs #2 battle at the YEC has ever happened before. Sorry, but... they just don't care about the lesser spots. It's #1 or nothing.
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post #33 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Originally Posted by Marlene View Post
It's not rare for the YEC to shuffle the top 10 a little bit, but it's not the YEC in its entirety we're talking about here. It's one match, and we'll have to have two players within ~200 pts of each other, who both have chance of taking the #1 spot, and have them make the SFs and both lose there. Realistically, it's a once-in-a-million scenario.

Here's 2011 for you... before the YEC*:
1. Wozniacki 7395
2. Sharapova 6370
3. Kvitova 5970
4. Azarenka 5750
*Points from the previous YEC dropped.

After:
1. Wozniacki 7485
2. Kvitova 7370
3. Azarenka 6520
4. Sharapova 6510

All Wozniacki had to do to secure the #1 spot was to win one RR match. Which she did, and nothing more. Kvitova won the whole thing but finished at #2 just short of Wozniacki.

But note how close Azarenka and Sharapova are. What happened that year was that Sharapova played two RR matches, lost both, and then withdrew with no chances of making the SFs, citing an ankle injury from Tokyo that had suddenly reinvented itself. Azarenka then had to play an alternate, Bartoli, in her 3rd RR match which was a dead rubber for her. In case you don't remember; she tanked it in three sets and couldn't care less. Was booed, deservedly.

Both Sharapova and Azarenka have people in their camps who know basic math and who can tally the what-if ranking scenarios. Neither of them (Sharapova and Azarenka) cared enough about the #3 spot to give a shit about the matches that would potentially have ensured them that spot. (Azarenka made the final, but without that she would have ended up #4. Sharapova could have secured the #3 spot by just playing her last RR match but chose not to).

This is the best example I can provide, because it really is just such an implausible scenario and nothing closer to a #1 vs #2 battle at the YEC has ever happened before. Sorry, but... they just don't care about the lesser spots. It's #1 or nothing.
Thanks for the research.

Players like Errani would care.
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post #34 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 09:36 PM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Thanks for the research.

Players like Errani would care.
Yes, and others would as well. But it takes two players who care to make an interesting match, cf. Azarenka vs. Bartoli at the YEC 2011.
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post #35 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Yes, and others would as well. But it takes two players who care to make an interesting match, cf. Azarenka vs. Bartoli at the YEC 2011.
Personal pride and professionalism could be another factor
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post #36 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 10:45 PM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Personal pride and professionalism could be another factor
Not worth an injury. And there's nothing left to have match practice for with it being the last tourney of the year.

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #37 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 11:19 PM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

Because the people playing dont give a shit. All those below Serena are weak hearted amateurs in it for a pay day.
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post #38 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 11:23 PM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

Once they made it RR, it's only logical to have a 3rd place match.

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post #39 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 11:38 PM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

3rd place playoffs is for where you win medals, such as Olympics.

In the YEC, I don't think there should be one. Not even if points and prize money are adjusted accordingly.


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post #40 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2013, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Not worth an injury. And there's nothing left to have match practice for with it being the last tourney of the year.
This is not real a good reason. You can risk injury in any match.
I would understand if a player is already nursing an injury suffered in earlier matches, and decide not to play for 3rd for risk of aggravating it.
In this case the player be automatically finish in 4th place, and the opponent 3rd.

You probably did not read the other reasons I included
Extra points, extra prize money to pick up, it is not like there is no incentives.

In addition, for some athletes with pride and competitive juice, it is chance to gauge where they stand exactly among the 4 semi-finalists.


In competitive sports, ranking and score keeping is the name of the game. You want to see where you are compared to the competition, especially when the elites of the sport are competing.

Last edited by tennislover22; Oct 26th, 2013 at 03:23 AM.
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post #41 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2013, 12:01 AM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

Absolutely pointless idea. The only event that 3rd place makes sense in is Olympics.
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post #42 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2013, 12:05 AM Thread Starter
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Absolutely pointless idea. The only event that 3rd place makes sense in is Olympics.
Somebody started it at the Olympics.

Before it started at the Olympic, there were probably people like yourself, with an aversion to trying new things.
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post #43 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2013, 01:30 AM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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That would be very interesting actually. They should do that as a warm-up for the final.

They also should be more clever scheduling the RR matches. We now have Empress-Heerrani as a dead match in terms of group standings and who advances, whereas if that had been played earlier NaNa-Vika would've mattered regardless.
I thought of that, but not really, cause if Jankovic won in straight, the Azarenka-Li match would have been a dead rubber.
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post #44 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2013, 03:12 AM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
This is not real a good reason. You can risk in any match.
I would understand if a player is already nursing an injury suffered in earlier matches, and decide not to play for 3rd for risk of aggravating it.
In this case the player be automatically finish in 4th place, and the opponent 3rd.

You probably did not read the other reasons I included
Extra points, extra prize money to pick up, it is not like there is no incentives.

In addition, for some athletes with pride and competitive juice, it is chance to gauge where they stand exactly among the 4 semi-finalists.


In competitive sports, ranking and score keeping is the name of the game. You want to see where you are compared to the competition, especially when the elites of the sport are competing.
Points and prize money are negligible and 3rd and 4th place don't matter in tennis. It's the winner and everyone else. That's how tennis is. You don't have a 3rd place match in any of the major American sports either.
And it is a real reason. It's why players don't push themselves in dead rubbers. They take it easy without it being a total tank job.

I always wanted to be somebody. If I made it, it's half because I was game enough to take a lot of punishment along the way and half because there were a lot of people who cared enough to help me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrinbaker00 View Post
When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #45 of 76 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2013, 04:12 AM
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Re: YEC: Why NOT Inlcude a 3rd Place Match On Final Day

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Originally Posted by Marlene View Post
This.

You can already see how the players can hardly find the motivation to play dead rubbers in the RRs, even though they get 230 pts and $140k for a win. (E.g. Radwanska yesterday, Stosur last year, Azarenka and Sharapova two years ago).
This is a very good point. I still haven't seen an answer from anyone claiming that players would be motivated by ranking points and money for a 3rd place playoff when they don't seem to be particularly motivated by ranking points and money in a dead RR rubber.

Also - what about advocating having 3rd and 4th place playoffs for losing semi-finalists at slams and other tournaments? Where do you stop? I don't really have any enthusiasm for this idea.

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Last edited by terjw; Oct 26th, 2013 at 04:21 AM.
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