Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate - TennisForum.com

 193Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 01:31 AM Thread Starter
country flag MB.
Senior Member
 
MB.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,901
                     
Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

I'm consistently seeing posters (and now tennis players) assert that Serena is the greatest of all time, not Graf.

I'm wondering--in what empirical data as of this moment in time is Serena greater than Graf in terms of achievements? Or is it simply a peak versus peak hypothetical that she's greater?

I cheer on scrubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jankimfan View Post
JJ just cannot put any volleys in the court this year!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miracle Worker View Post
She's doubles specialist, not volleys specialist.
MB. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 01:36 AM
*Sesil*
 
KournikovaFan91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Éire
Posts: 19,749
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

In before the stabbing reference

In all seriousness I personally find it hard to pick between the two, I might give Steffi the edge because of 88 but I personally think its hard to pick one.
KournikovaFan91 is offline  
post #3 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 01:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 472
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Given the increased global competitiveness of the sport and the greater strain the modern game puts on the women's bodies, I don't think Graf-like achievements are possible anymore. Just my two cents.
blackandblue is offline  
post #4 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 01:43 AM
Senior Member
 
JRena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,175
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Steffi has the numbers for now, but Serena is seen to have the best peak of any woman.
JRena is offline  
post #5 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 01:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 337
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

I believe Serena wins the peak vs. peak debate. As has been stated by many posters and pundits-when at her best she has no weakness. There are few other players, including Graf (backhand) that you could say that about. Also she is adding to her legacy everyday now with this high level of play in the twilight of her career. The second French title 11 years after the first also gives her a much stronger argument for GOAT than she had prior (winning her weakest slam in her twilight years). Also, while it's unlikely, she *could* equal or beat Graf in slams. That rather unfortunately is the only shot she's got at beating Graf empirically, and it is a BIG ask to win 6+ slams past 31.
Ackms421 is offline  
post #6 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 01:48 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,467
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Neither. Martina Nav.........
Rex59 is offline  
post #7 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 01:57 AM
Senior Member
 
moby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 14,440
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Graf's backhand was not a weakness, certainly no more than Serena's footwork.

A single flow'r he sent me, since we met./All tenderly his messenger he chose;
Deep-hearted, pure, with scented dew still wet - One perfect rose.
I knew the language of the floweret;/'My fragile leaves,' it said, 'his heart enclose.'
Love long has taken for his amulet/One perfect rose.
Why is it no one ever sent me yet/One perfect limousine, do you suppose?
Ah no, it's always just my luck to get/One perfect rose.
moby is offline  
post #8 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:02 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 40,129
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackandblue View Post
Given the increased global competitiveness of the sport and the greater strain the modern game puts on the women's bodies, I don't think Graf-like achievements are possible anymore. Just my two cents.
Regardless of who is at Graf's heel, Seles stabbing is a serious elephant in the room when talking about Graf's record.


The trouble with this debate is that appearing to argue on the behalf of a particular player (challenging Seffi's record) often poisoned the debate, taking that element out makes for a better debate.


Let's not forget, Seles had the momentum when this happened. She had just won USO and AO, looking forward to RG.
Imagine Martina Nav the victim of a stabbing at the height of her rivalry with Chris Every.
I can't even think how many more titles Chrissy would have won, since they in so many finals

Last edited by tennislover22; Jul 1st, 2013 at 02:16 AM.
tennislover22 is offline  
post #9 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:04 AM
Senior Member
 
tennnisfannn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 9,308
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

It comes down to numbers and we will need to wait a few more years to see if that happens for Serena. But if the likes of McEnroe says it, well it is has got to be worth something.

Rena- a tennis great! 22 at striking distance.
tennnisfannn is offline  
post #10 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:09 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 48
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Graf is GOAT, enough said. Had a graceful game worthy of the title too.
blancopersempre is offline  
post #11 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:13 AM
*Sesil*
 
KournikovaFan91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Éire
Posts: 19,749
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Regardless of who is at Graf's heel, Seles stabbing is a serious elephant in the room when talking about Graf's record.

Let's not forget, Seles had the momentum when this happened. She had just won USO and AO, looking forward to RG.
Imagine Martina Nav the victim of a stabbing at the height of her rivalry with Chris Every.
I can't even think how many more titles Chrissy would have won, since they in so many finals
Ok, but Maria had momentum against Serena in 2004 which amounted to nothing. In theory the same could have happened with Seles/Graf. Coming up with theories and what ifs is ridiculous. The facts are what they are, Steffi has her slams and her golden slam which has no connection whatsoever with Monica.
KournikovaFan91 is offline  
post #12 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:20 AM
Senior Member
 
Bartoli's Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 684
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by MB. View Post
I'm wondering--in what empirical data as of this moment in time is Serena greater than Graf in terms of achievements?
At the current time, in terms of achievements, there isn't any. Although that could certainly change, but it's a long shot.

But remember that Court has better numbers than Graf in every area, except total weeks ranked number one. Which is something that really highlights how difficult it is to compare eras, since the computer rankings began in the mid-70s.

Last edited by Bartoli's Boy; Jul 1st, 2013 at 02:26 AM.
Bartoli's Boy is offline  
post #13 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:22 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 40,129
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Ok, but Maria had momentum against Serena in 2004 which amounted to nothing. In theory the same could have happened with Seles/Graf. Coming up with theories and what ifs is ridiculous. The facts are what they are, Steffi has her slams and her golden slam which has no connection whatsoever with Monica.
Maria example is weak one. That was her first GS.
The example of Martina Nav, is the most alike parallel to Monica's.
tennislover22 is offline  
post #14 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:24 AM
*Sesil*
 
KournikovaFan91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Éire
Posts: 19,749
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

And YEC, so she beat Serena in 2 big event finals in 2004.
KournikovaFan91 is offline  
post #15 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:25 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 472
                     
Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
And YEC, so she beat Serena in 2 big event finals in 2004.
She beat a Serena who literally couldn't serve in 3 sets. Let's be real.
blackandblue is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TennisForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome