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post #1201 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 07:15 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by buscemi View Post
That's a STRAW MAN if I have ever seen one. You are analogizing Seles being stabbed to a team losing the Super Bowl. In the latter case, you would be arguing: "What if David Tyree didn't catch that pass from Eli Manning?" or "What if Scott Norwood didn't miss that field goal?" That is in no way analogous to, "What if Monica Seles were not stabbed by a crazed Steffi Graf fan?"

In fact, do you know the best analogy? The 2004 Olympic Marathon. Vanderlei de Lima was leading the Olympic Marathon at the 2004 Olympics when Cornelius Horan, a defrocked Irish priest, tackled Lima, delaying and semi-injuring him. Lima finished 3rd. There were PLENTY of people in the press and on the message boards who called for awarding Lima a gold medal on the ground that he would have won if he were not tackled.
It only appears like a Straw Man's argument because you have overvalued the importance of the stabbing. In effect, the stabbing is no different than an injury which takes a competitor out of the game for a period of time. Only when you add the melodrama that seems to surround women's tennis, because of the loser mentality of most of its fans, does it become the singular event it is in your mind.

In other sports, players sustain injuries that end or curtail their careers. When that happens, fans of that player and the team just move on. It makes no sense to engage in "what if" scenarios because the conversation in that sport regards such thinking as ridiculous. Where are the Sterling Sharpe fans who claim that Jerry Rice's records should all have asterisks next to them? Where are the Bo Jackson fans who claim that Emmitt Smith's records should all have asterisks next to them? In pro football, injuries happen; players with great potential are murdered, die, or end up on bad teams with bad coaching. It is all the same. No one stops to cry or whine about these things. If a player wants to be great, regardless of his social or physical circumstances, he must overcome. See Dez Bryant or Adrian Peterson. Crying about things doesn't make you great.

By comparison, Seles never really came back from her injury and her fans still want her to be the greatest ever. It just doesn't work that way in other sports. But it works that way in women's tennis because of the loser mentality of some of its fans. If your analogy proves anything, it is that that loser mentality can from time to time contaminate other sports. So much for your analogy.

Steffi Graf was part of a youth tennis group that was studied from age 12 and then followed, and the scientists called her "the perfect talent" even then. In addition to her many tennis-specific skills, her aerobic capacity was on par with the best distance runners in Europe. --- David Epstein, The Sports Gene
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post #1202 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 11:13 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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It only appears like a Straw Man's argument because you have overvalued the importance of the stabbing. In effect, the stabbing is no different than an injury which takes a competitor out of the game for a period of time. Only when you add the melodrama that seems to surround women's tennis, because of the loser mentality of most of its fans, does it become the singular event it is in your mind.

In other sports, players sustain injuries that end or curtail their careers. When that happens, fans of that player and the team just move on. It makes no sense to engage in "what if" scenarios because the conversation in that sport regards such thinking as ridiculous. Where are the Sterling Sharpe fans who claim that Jerry Rice's records should all have asterisks next to them? Where are the Bo Jackson fans who claim that Emmitt Smith's records should all have asterisks next to them? In pro football, injuries happen; players with great potential are murdered, die, or end up on bad teams with bad coaching. It is all the same. No one stops to cry or whine about these things. If a player wants to be great, regardless of his social or physical circumstances, he must overcome. See Dez Bryant or Adrian Peterson. Crying about things doesn't make you great.

By comparison, Seles never really came back from her injury and her fans still want her to be the greatest ever. It just doesn't work that way in other sports. But it works that way in women's tennis because of the loser mentality of some of its fans. If your analogy proves anything, it is that that loser mentality can from time to time contaminate other sports. So much for your analogy.
But was it just a simple injury...or was it something bigger than 'just' an injury?!

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post #1203 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 11:51 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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It only appears like a Straw Man's argument because you have overvalued the importance of the stabbing. In effect, the stabbing is no different than an injury which takes a competitor out of the game for a period of time. Only when you add the melodrama that seems to surround women's tennis, because of the loser mentality of most of its fans, does it become the singular event it is in your mind.

In other sports, players sustain injuries that end or curtail their careers. When that happens, fans of that player and the team just move on. It makes no sense to engage in "what if" scenarios because the conversation in that sport regards such thinking as ridiculous. Where are the Sterling Sharpe fans who claim that Jerry Rice's records should all have asterisks next to them? Where are the Bo Jackson fans who claim that Emmitt Smith's records should all have asterisks next to them? In pro football, injuries happen; players with great potential are murdered, die, or end up on bad teams with bad coaching. It is all the same. No one stops to cry or whine about these things. If a player wants to be great, regardless of his social or physical circumstances, he must overcome. See Dez Bryant or Adrian Peterson. Crying about things doesn't make you great.

By comparison, Seles never really came back from her injury and her fans still want her to be the greatest ever. It just doesn't work that way in other sports. But it works that way in women's tennis because of the loser mentality of some of its fans. If your analogy proves anything, it is that that loser mentality can from time to time contaminate other sports. So much for your analogy.
This so-called "loser mentality" actually has great applicability...to the claim that Graf was in some sort of horrible slump from late 1990-May 1993, during which a 16 year-old Seles was able to take her lunch. It is not, however, at all applicable to the argument that Seles would have maintained her dominance had she not been stabbed by a crazed Graf fan who couldn't handle his fräulein being supplanted by a younger player who was only getting better. In my last post, I gave the 2004 Olympic marathon as the proper analogy to the Seles stabbing as opposed to the missed field goals and hip injuries that cause the typical what ifs. And your response is to talk about the Sterling Sharpes and Bo Jacksons of the world whose bodies simply could not hold up.
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post #1204 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 01:30 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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if we're talking about quality of the field then Serena doesn't hold a candle to Graf, Nav or Court.

Seles came back and although the event was very unfortunate, it is her fault she was never able to challenge Graf again.
None of this changes the fact that Graf has 22 majors, most in the Open Era.

I've already conceded if you want to call Court GOAT and Graf GOAT of the Open Era. Apparently, this is something Seles and Serena stans won't even accept no matter how reasonable it is.
The fact is that just having to play each other in finals, Evert and Navratilova had much tougher competition than Graf ever had after the stabbing. A 30 plus Navratilova had a 9-9 H-H against prime Graf. An even older Evert could give Graf a very tough time on clay, at least. Overall, I think Court had the toughest competition, THROUGOUT, her career than Graf or any of the other top champions who came after her. King, Bueno, Hard, Wade, Jones, Turner, Richey, Evert, Goolagong, Navratilova were most of the top players she had to contend with throughout her career. She was 30 or older when she played most of her matches agains Chris and Martina. Other than those two, Court had a healthy winning H-H advantage against her top competition.
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post #1205 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:04 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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I'd be very surprised if you get an answer on this from AcesHigh.
Of course niether he or the other Serena haters want to be more specific and then confirm how ridiculous they are by repeating this myth. Serena fans have repeatedly listed all her multi major, former #1 hall of fame rivalries over her career. It is very easy to make claims but a different matter to supply empirical evidence to support your claim.(reciepts)

This is not the first time I've posed this question and never got a response. I would really like to know the rivals that Graf faced that is comparable to Hingis, Venus, Justine, Lindsay, Jennifer, Kim, Pova and to a certain extent Monica.

To be fair when Monica return to the court she had all the above players to deal with and more, while prior to the stabbing she only had Graf so to speak. Even Graf had difficulty defeating these players during the infant stage of their careers.

Anyway back to the present, I hope we get to see some tennis soon so we can enjoy some good tennis and continue to cheer our girls on and they keep adding to the history books.

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the SILENCE OF OUR FRIENDS. MLK
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post #1206 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:15 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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In effect, the stabbing is no different than an injury which takes a competitor out of the game for a period of time.

You Graftards really have no shame

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post #1207 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:17 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by Petersmiler View Post
I beg to differ. I have a different opinion to you, but that does not make me wrong. Are you really 73? I thought you would have worked this out by now. I think what you meant to say was that you disagree with me.


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On the contrary, one player had their main rival stabbed at a crucial point in their career, whereas, the other player didn't. That is very simple and to the point. Yes, I am 73, and very, very young at heart, mind and you can say body too.

BTW, I type at 60wpm, so I am allowed some typos..
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post #1208 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:45 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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But was it just a simple injury...or was it something bigger than 'just' an injury?!
well, the way you guys love to overreact it seems like Graf herself ordered to murder Seles on court...it was very unfortunate accident, yes, but didn't Seles still win a slam after she returned back on tour?

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post #1209 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:52 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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LOL. Seles won as many Majors in 1992 as Henin won in 2006 and 2007 COMBINED. And then, we don't have to speculate as to what happened to Seles after 1992 and Henin in 2007. Seles continued her dominance before she was stabbed while Henin crumbled.

So, yes, you are right. Many people at the end of 2007 thought that Henin could catch Serena in greatness, but the argument wasn't on very solid ground: 2007 was the 1st year since 2003 in which Henin won more than 1 Major. Seles had won 7 of the last 9 Majors and 3 of the last 3 WTA Championships starting in late 1990. The argument that she was surpassing Graf was MUCH stronger.
While I agree the two situations are in no way comparable in fairness it did make sense for people, for many people, to be predicting Henin was overtaking Serena as the best player of their generation by the end of 2007. At that point Henin was only 1 slam behind Serena, but had won 5 in the last 3 years vs only 2 for Serena, and Henin had been the better player for 4 and a half years solid at that point. Of course what ensued was far from that, and Serena has reestablished herself as by far the best of her era and a GOAT candidate, while Henin's main legacy now is by far best of her era on clay, one of the best all time on clay, but she is barely hanging on for 2nd best of her era overall over Venus, but Henin overtaking Serena as the best player of their era was in many ways the only logical prediction at that point.
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post #1210 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:53 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by Vlover View Post
Of course niether he or the other Serena haters want to be more specific and then confirm how ridiculous they are by repeating this myth. Serena fans have repeatedly listed all her multi major, former #1 hall of fame rivalries over her career. It is very easy to make claims but a different matter to supply empirical evidence to support your claim.(reciepts)

This is not the first time I've posed this question and never got a response. I would really like to know the rivals that Graf faced that is comparable to Hingis, Venus, Justine, Lindsay, Jennifer, Kim, Pova and to a certain extent Monica.

To be fair when Monica return to the court she had all the above players to deal with and more, while prior to the stabbing she only had Graf so to speak. Even Graf had difficulty defeating these players during the infant stage of their careers.

Anyway back to the present, I hope we get to see some tennis soon so we can enjoy some good tennis and continue to cheer our girls on and they keep adding to the history books.
Are you serious? From 2008-present who are these "rivals" Serena had to face?
I dont respond to you or RVD because nothing either of you post is worth acknowledging.

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #1211 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:54 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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well, the way you guys love to overreact it seems like Graf herself ordered to murder Seles on court...it was very unfortunate accident, yes, but didn't Seles still win a slam after she returned back on tour?
Yes, Seles returned in Toronto in 1995, still not 100% physically, mentally, or emotionally from the stabbing and also having missed 2.5 years of development. She promptly won that tournament and made the final on the U.S. Open, giving Graf a hell of a fight before going down, 7-6, 0-6, 6-3. Her next tournament was Sydney 1996, which she won. Monica then played the Australian Open, where she injured her shoulder but still won the tournament to collect her 9th Major.

Unfortunately, that shoulder injury, which was directly attributable to the stabbing, never fully healed and in fact developed into a full blown torn rotator cuff because Monica felt that she had already missed too much time due to the stabbing and thus opted to forego surgery.
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post #1212 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:56 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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The fact is that just having to play each other in finals, Evert and Navratilova had much tougher competition than Graf ever had after the stabbing. A 30 plus Navratilova had a 9-9 H-H against prime Graf. An even older Evert could give Graf a very tough time on clay, at least. Overall, I think Court had the toughest competition, THROUGOUT, her career than Graf or any of the other top champions who came after her. King, Bueno, Hard, Wade, Jones, Turner, Richey, Evert, Goolagong, Navratilova were most of the top players she had to contend with throughout her career. She was 30 or older when she played most of her matches agains Chris and Martina. Other than those two, Court had a healthy winning H-H advantage against her top competition.
Go through most of those AO draws though and the competition in many of them is described as paltry at best.
But like I said, if you want to proclaim Court GOAT, I have no problem. I do say, however, that Graf is the GOAT of the Open Era.

Navratilova probably had it the toughest, having to fight through BOTH Evert and Graf.

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #1213 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:58 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Evidently majority of the Graf fanatics choose to ignore this fact. They claim Graf would have won 22 majors even if Monica wasn't stabbed and some of us disagree with that asumption. If you fanatics are going to discount Courts 24 majors based on the "quality" of the field then it is fair game that Graf's 22 is debatable also based on the quality of the field left after her main rival was deliberately stabbed in order to diminish the quality of the field.
Court's competition is very underrated. Yes her competition at the Australian Open sucked, but at the other 3 slams she had very hard competition. Much harder than any of Navratilova, Evert, or Graf, especialy Navratilova and Graf. The Graf and Navratilova eras were a joke for the most part. Court faced King, Bueno, Goolagong for many years, as well as other great players like Jones, Wade, Richey, and various surface specialists on both grass and clay (the only 2 prominent surfaces then) as well.
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post #1214 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 02:59 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Btw, I love how these Graf "haters" are completely oblivious to Monica's physical and technical limitations as if they would never be exploited. They were largely the reason she had hardly the same success after her return.

To ignore these realities is to be disingenuous. Other athletes have come back from tougher injuries to greater success. Of course no one would have faulted Monica from retiring after the stabbing. However, to somehow blame Graf for Monica's inabilities is ridiculous.

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #1215 of 2251 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 2013, 03:00 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by buscemi View Post
Yes, Seles returned in Toronto in 1995, still not 100% physically, mentally, or emotionally from the stabbing and also having missed 2.5 years of development. She promptly won that tournament and made the final on the U.S. Open, giving Graf a hell of a fight before going down, 7-6, 0-6, 6-3. Her next tournament was Sydney 1996, which she won. Monica then played the Australian Open, where she injured her shoulder but still won the tournament to collect her 9th Major.

Unfortunately, that shoulder injury, which was directly attributable to the stabbing, never fully healed and in fact developed into a full blown torn rotator cuff because Monica felt that she had already missed too much time due to the stabbing and thus opted to forego surgery.

Not to mention that she never was the same player again mentally. She developed an eating dosorder after the stabbing and the death of her father and wasn't fit.

Before the stabbing, being 5 years on tour, she won 8 Slams. After the stabbing, almost 9 years on the tour, she won one single Slam.
Madmax, you can do the math now.

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