Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate - Page 3 - TennisForum.com

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post #31 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:53 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by blackandblue View Post
Good to know John McEnroe doesn't know his tennis.

The smug sense of superiority reeking from this post is smothering.
"fanboys, sensationalists, or people who don't know their tennis history"

So there are two other options that could apply to John McEnroe.
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post #32 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:53 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Good to know John McEnroe doesn't know his tennis.

The smug sense of superiority reeking from this post is smothering.
Sensationalists. If you have followed John McEnroe as a commentator he has said a lot of ludicrous things about the men's game. He works in media. He knows what he's doing.

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #33 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:53 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Ok, but Maria had momentum against Serena in 2004 which amounted to nothing. In theory the same could have happened with Seles/Graf. Coming up with theories and what ifs is ridiculous. The facts are what they are, Steffi has her slams and her golden slam which has no connection whatsoever with Monica.
Saying Maria had momentum against Serena in 2004 is like saying that Seles had momentum against Graf in 1990. But then, there was 1991. And then, there was 1992. And then, there was early 1993. And Seles was just getting better. From the '92 U.S. Open to the stabbing, she was basically unbeatable, with a new, dominating serve to match her dominating groundstrokes.
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post #34 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:54 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Sensationalists. If you have followed John McEnroe as a commentator he has said a lot of ludicrous things about the men's game. He works in media. He knows what he's doing.
So no one in sports media has a valid opinion using this logic, right?
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post #35 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 02:55 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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What exactly makes Aranxta better than Sharapova?
If you watched the two play.. you would know.

And Sharapova is way past her SuperPova peak in 2006.

And Sharapova just got bounced be De Brito. Unreliable serve, average movement, no net game, no variety. She's reduced herself to a baseline power grinder with improved court coverage.


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So no one in sports media has a valid opinion using this logic, right?
No, I'm not saying that. But Johnny Mac has said things about Roddick, Agassi, Federer and Nadal that are very reactionary and in the moment. Either he constantly has a short memory or he is good at his job and exaggerates pretty well.

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When will you learn that "pushers" never make it past the club level, let alone #1 on the WTA computer? Will it be too late?
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post #36 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:00 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Arantxa/Sharapova...same scrubs.

difference is serena faced real competiton outside of weak azarenka/sharapova. their was also venus, capriati, hingis, and henin. that's what matters. graf had no competition after seles was stabbed.

serena is the greatest ever.
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post #37 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:01 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by KournikovaFan91 View Post
Did you even read what I posted I'm not suggesting it would have been a Maria Serena situation but it cold have been just as much as it could have been a Martina Chris one. It never occurred therefore thousands of theoretical possibilities exist and frankly you all just use the stabbing to discredit Steffi of her achievements. How about celebrate what Monica achieved rather than attempt (and usually fail) to discredit one of the GOATs.
So why mention Maria.
Hut you taking the easy wAy outby your "How about celebrate what Monica achieved rather than attempt to discredit ..." reference. This has been a fall back position for people who agree to this debate at first, then when things don't go their way, they use that line.
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post #38 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by tennisbum79 View Post
Regardless of who is at Graf's heel, Seles stabbing is a serious elephant in the room when talking about Graf's record.


The trouble with this debate is that appearing to argue on the behalf of a particular player (challenging Seffi's record) often poisoned the debate, taking that element out makes for a better debate.


Let's not forget, Seles had the momentum when this happened. She had just won USO and AO, looking forward to RG.
Imagine Martina Nav the victim of a stabbing at the height of her rivalry with Chris Every.
I can't even think how many more titles Chrissy would have won, since they in so many finals
I can't believe reetards go as low and use Monica's stabbing to diminish Steffi's accomplishments to make a case for Serena. What about WTA's weak-ass field post 2008 when Serena won half her slams.

RECEIPTS are RECEIPTS and until Serena wins a calendar golden slam and reaches 23 slams (winning at least 4 of each) and passes Graf's weeks at number one they will have to remain seated. Period.

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post #39 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:05 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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I can't believe reetards go as low and use Monica's stabbing to diminish Steffi's accomplishments. What about WTA's weak-ass field post 2008 when Serena won half her slams.

Receipts are receipts and until Serena wins a calendar golden slam and reaches 23 slams (winning at least 4 of each) and passes Graf's weeks at number one they will have to remain seated. Period.

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post #40 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:06 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by GOyoungUSA View Post
Arantxa/Sharapova...same scrubs.

difference is serena faced real competiton outside of weak azarenka/sharapova. their was also venus, capriati, hingis, and henin. that's what matters. graf had no competition after seles was stabbed.

serena is the greatest ever.
Serena faced an in shape Capriati, Henin, Hingis and Venus for a few years.

How is that any different than Graf facing Evert, Navratilova, Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario, Novotna and Seles for a few years?

Arantxa Sanchez Vicario Always #1
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post #41 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:12 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

It's a pointless argument. Each was/is the best of her era.

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post #42 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:24 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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I think this a fair point, but misses part of the argument--I don't think the Serena side is saying that Serena consistently dominates others day in, day out every match like Graf did, rather than that at their peak level, Serena def. Graf. (In other words, Graf's peak can last longer/be more consistent and Serena's may be only lasting a oouple matches, but Serena's potential level > Graf in a best 2 out of 3 match.
If that is the argument then I don't see how that makes Serena the "GOAT". I agree, Serena at her best would be hard to beat...but like you said Serena was rarely at her best, and rarely even NEAR her best...She has improved upon that in the the last 2 seasons, but for the rest of her career she was either great or off.

To me, and I'd imagine most people, you would want the best player to not just be the best on rare occasions. Graf vs Serena on 10 random days throughout their career would end in Graf's favor, because it would be highly unlikely Serena would be anywhere near her best in the majority of the matches, whereas Graf was consistently great.

Picture it this way---You have a player, let's say similar to Mary Pierce, who can just wake up one day and be untouchable. However, she rarely does so and only wins a couple grand slams. You wouldn't consider this player in the conversation for GOAT.

Or even think of a player like Sorana Cirstea. Cirstea has been phenomenal on VERY rare occasions. She likely could take down a few of the top ten players on those days. Yet no one would consider Sorana a better player than Radwanska.

What Serena proponents are missing when they claim her to be the sole "GOAT" is how huge of a role consistency should play. Serena is celebrating winning her 600th victory. She has 110 losses. Graf had just over 900 victories and only 115 losses. You can make the depth argument that tennis is more available in many different countries, but I counter that argument by saying that other women's sports are also far more popular than they were in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, and tennis might have even lost some popularity, which one certainly could say would take away from the talent/depth.


Her longevity is also questionable. Her ~710 career matches is less than half the total of what Navratilova WON (1442). I know the game is more physical now, but really? We all can agree that Serena played large portions of her career out of shape. The lack of total matches is due largely in part to that.

Serena certainly deserves to be in hallowed and rare company as A GOAT, but I can't see the argument for THE GOAT. Be content to have her name etched in history alongside Navratilova, Evert, Court, Graf.

Arantxa Sanchez Vicario Always #1
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post #43 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:26 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by GOyoungUSA View Post
Arantxa/Sharapova...same scrubs.

difference is serena faced real competiton outside of weak azarenka/sharapova. their was also venus, capriati, hingis, and henin. that's what matters. graf had no competition after seles was stabbed.

serena is the greatest ever.
I really try to stay out of those silly never-ending debates about Gaf-Seles, it becomes hard with so much false and bad info being cited time and time again.

First off Steffi had already completed her golden slam and was a 12 time slam finalist and a 9 time slam winner before Monica even came on the scene!!!

There's this false belief that Graf won everything significant in Seles' absence and I just wanted to she'd truth on that fallacy. Six of Graf's 22 slams happened during Seles' break from the game so that 16 slams won either before or during Seles time competing. Steffi missed almost as many slams because of injury as Seles did during her time away from the game. So had Steffi not been injured is just as valid as saying had Seles not been stabbed in the world of what-ifs.

As for this blanket statement of no competition, well the same players Seles beat to make her great were the same players Steffi beat. Seles has more slam victories under her belt not facing Graf than she does playing her.

You mentioned: Capriatti, Henin, Hingis, Azarenka, and Pova all great players but no greater than Sanchez-Vicarrio, Navratilova, Mary Pierce, Novotna, and Steffi beat both Hingis and Capriatti on her way to win slams as well . For every Radwanksa their was a Meeleva (so to speak)... Tennis Histroy


And to be clear I'm not arguing against Rena being the greatest i'm just arguing against your argument...

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post #44 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:32 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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I believe Serena wins the peak vs. peak debate. As has been stated by many posters and pundits-when at her best she has no weakness. There are few other players, including Graf (backhand) that you could say that about. Also she is adding to her legacy everyday now with this high level of play in the twilight of her career. The second French title 11 years after the first also gives her a much stronger argument for GOAT than she had prior (winning her weakest slam in her twilight years). Also, while it's unlikely, she *could* equal or beat Graf in slams. That rather unfortunately is the only shot she's got at beating Graf empirically, and it is a BIG ask to win 6+ slams past 31.
I dont really get how much this second Rg title in 11 years has to do with anything to add to her GOAT status.

Truly another Rg title adds to her legacy as she adds 2 of each at least to her count. But the 11 year span mean nothing and after all Graf won her first Rg in 1987 and her last in 1999, 12 years.

That being said i really think this pretty much shows how weak the tour is today, Errani a top 4 player almost, Vinci almost a top ten, this pretty much is a laught, in comparisson to what the talent was back then in 1999-2001 (Graf's 29-31 years old) and after that.

I really doubt Serena would be domianting tennis today with the competition as it was back in 2000-2001 (competition to what Graf would have faced as 31 years of age), you had top notch Venus, compare that to top notch Sharapova? Azarenka? , and the rest of the top 10-20 players in Serena herself, Davenport, Hingis, Mauresmo, Capriati, Dementieva, young Clijsters, Henin and so on.......

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post #45 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 1st, 2013, 03:34 AM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

So now Serena's peak abilities are as erratic as Cirstea and Pierce??
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