Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate - Page 111 - TennisForum.com
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post #1651 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 01:21 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Most definitely Steffi. Even if Serena passes Margaret Court on slam titles won, I still wont recognise her as the greatest of all time. And I am not being biased here at all (I'm was not even a Steffi Graf fan). I still firmly believe that Venus is the next best/closest I have ever witnessed to Steffi Graf.
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post #1652 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 01:47 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Originally Posted by Boss Hogg View Post
Most definitely Steffi. Even if Serena passes Margaret Court on slam titles won, I still wont recognise her as the greatest of all time. And I am not being biased here at all (I'm was not even a Steffi Graf fan). I still firmly believe that Venus is the next best/closest I have ever witnessed to Steffi Graf.
And there we have it! Talk about head in the sand, this person is at risk of dying of asphyxiation with his or her heads face down in the proverbial sand.

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post #1653 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 02:04 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Most definitely Steffi. Even if Serena passes Margaret Court on slam titles won, I still wont recognise her as the greatest of all time. And I am not being biased here at all (I'm was not even a Steffi Graf fan). I still firmly believe that Venus is the next best/closest I have ever witnessed to Steffi Graf.
Like it or not, Court has won more slams, tournaments, highest winning % since 1960. Again, there was no women's pro tour. Therefore all top women were competing during the Court era too. Also, Court had very tough competition throughout her Entire career. The same cannot be said of Serena and especially Graf.
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post #1654 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 02:11 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Like it or not, Court has won more slams, tournaments, highest winning % since 1960. Again, there was no women's pro tour. Therefore all top women were competing during the Court era too. Also, Court had very tough competition throughout her Entire career. The same cannot be said of Serena and especially Graf.
what I don't get about people trying to dismiss Court's AUstralian Open titles is the players she beat there she was also beating at the other three slams and she had several years where she was winning all 4 or 3 of the 4 and a bunch of years where she won at least two slams.

Is this based on Court's religious personality and people are taking their hatred out on her accomplishments or they support another player and trying to elevate their player of choice above Court?

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post #1655 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 02:12 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Like it or not, Court has won more slams, tournaments, highest winning % since 1960. Again, there was no women's pro tour. Therefore all top women were competing during the Court era too. Also, Court had very tough competition throughout her Entire career. The same cannot be said of Serena and especially Graf.

Didn't she win 11 AO titles when most of the other top players weren't even playing that tournament?

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post #1656 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 02:15 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

well she had Bueno, King and Goolagong as major rivals at the Australian Open during that period and they were top players themselves at the tiume.

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So who will win the next 6 Wimbledons? Petra 2 of them, thats for sure. And dont even try to tell me that you see some hotter candidates than hers!
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post #1657 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 02:39 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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well she had Bueno, King and Goolagong as major rivals at the Australian Open during that period and they were top players themselves at the tiume.
Barely. Most of the field were australians and they had to play a total of 4-5 matches with seeds getting bye's in the first round. Nowhere near the level of competition since the late 80's and 90's to now.

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post #1658 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 02:54 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Like it or not, Court has won more slams, tournaments, highest winning % since 1960. Again, there was no women's pro tour. Therefore all top women were competing during the Court era too.
This is an important point often lost. The difference between the Open era and pre-Open era irrelevant for the women. Look at the years bracketing the beginning of Open tennis 1966-1970. Four players, Court, BJK, Richey, Haydon-Jones won slams in pre-Open tennis and Open tennis. The only player who won in the two years, prior, who didn't win in the Open era, was Francois Durr.

There are a couple other issues people overlook.

Doubles is NOT irrelevant. ALL the players in the GOAT debate played doubles at the slams. Some were just better at it than others. You can't ignore what Court and BJK and Navratilova and Wills-Moody accomplished in doubles and mixed, just because it complicates the argument.

Weeks-at-#1 is a stat of limited value, because how the #1 ranking was calculated changed fairly frequently. Also, how do you calculate weeks-at-#1 for players pre-computer rankings? YOu can just give them 52 weeks for each year they were voted #1 for the year,but it was a vote.

The Australian Open WAS a weak tournament many players skipped. Navratilova and Evert even skipped it often. Too much expense for not enough money. It's actually quite fair to argue Serena and Steffi Graf's numbers are somewhat inflated but OZ titles.

Seles being stabbed can only be more of a tie-breaker kind of thing than anything definitive. According to Seles herself, she had an eating disorder long before she got stabbed. Anything could have triggered her weight gain. So I can't assume she'd have won slams that should be subtracted from Graf's total. OTOH, the circumstancial evidence that Seles stabbing had SOME effect of Graf's slam totals is quite strong.

'Weak era'. Nonsense. Era look weak because of dominant champions. If you just look at slam singles titles, the 60's look weak, the eighties look weak, the current era looks weak, because 1 or 2 players dominated. But if you look closer, it's a lot more like, we know what kind of player Lindsay Davenport actually was, but most poeple on this forum saw her player. We know how good Hingis was, how good Mauresmo was. But the history of tennis is littered with players who's accomplishments were just as good. But 50 years later, we've forgotten them.

Martina Hingis and Maria Sharapova are tied for 21st on the list of all-tim slam singles winners. I defy any to name all the player ahead of them without looking them up.

There's a lot to balance if you want to say who's GOAT. In absolute terms, just talking singles, in a round-robin tournament, each with their own equipment and training, Serena probably wins easily. If you're arguing accomplishments, it's probably still Navrtilova vs Court. Serena's accomplishments outside the slams still fall short.

But if you want to argue Graf, hey, whatever.

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post #1659 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 03:04 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Court- 24
Graf- 22
Serena- 21

As of right now
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post #1660 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 04:05 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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Didn't she win 11 AO titles when most of the other top players weren't even playing that tournament?
That is fiction.

Maybe the first 4 or so of AOs were indeed like that but the rest had top players - Billie Jean Moffit (later King) was the AO finalist in 1965. Now how on earth is that possible if the "top players" were never playing AO until the 80s (as the story goes)?

So the claim that Court won ELEVEN slams witout meeting the then top players is extreme exaggeration. If you subtract 4 or 5 slams out of 24 you are still left with 19 or 20. That's more than enough to KEEP Court a goat contender cuz there are no women other than Court, Serena and Graf who have 20 slams.
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post #1661 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 05:43 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

I think there should also be a asterisk beside the name/year of the player who won a slam title when there were 32 seeds.
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post #1662 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 06:04 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

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That is fiction.

Maybe the first 4 or so of AOs were indeed like that but the rest had top players - Billie Jean Moffit (later King) was the AO finalist in 1965. Now how on earth is that possible if the "top players" were never playing AO until the 80s (as the story goes)?

So the claim that Court won ELEVEN slams witout meeting the then top players is extreme exaggeration. If you subtract 4 or 5 slams out of 24 you are still left with 19 or 20. That's more than enough to KEEP Court a goat contender cuz there are no women other than Court, Serena and Graf who have 20 slams.
From 1959 to 1983 billie jean only played the australian Open only 5 times.
Nancy richey from 1958 to 1978 played AO just twice. Maria bueno played only twice in her career as well.
Only goolagong is the really only the one you could say was some sort of competition. But they didn't play enough times there to even warrant as competition. And goolagongs career was mostly after court was pretty much done.

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post #1663 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 06:10 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

Monica Seles.

Serena is the Greatest of All Time.

Monica Seles.

I might bet on Graf against Serena in a non Slam event since Serena's motivation can dip outside of Slams and Miami...but in Slams or Miami, Serena to win - NID.

Monica Seles.

There's another reason I think Serena has been the Greatest of All Time since she reached 19 and winning a second Serena Slam and/or a calendar Slam are merely icing on that cake...

Gunter Parche.

Monica Seles was better than Graf.

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post #1664 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 06:32 PM
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Re: Serena and Graf and the GOAT Debate

At the moment, if you subtract Graf and Serena's accomplishments from each other you get:

Graf: One Slam win, five runner ups, and 127 weeks at #1 more than Serena. 39 titles more than Serena.
Serena: Fourteens slams in doubles and three gold medals.

If that makes sense. IMO its close between the two right now. Serena gets one more SLam and she's the GOAT. Two more and it's not a contest. Her doubles success really comes into play if they both end up level on 22 Slams, especially if for instance Serena holds onto the #3 ranking for another 52 weeks or so.

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post #1665 of 2251 (permalink) Old Jul 25th, 2015, 06:54 PM
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Justice will finally be served when Serena passes Steffi Parche's 22 GS tally. The most overrated champion of all-time. I'm sick of hearing Steffi fans insult Monica and her fans by saying that without the stabbing Steffi would have still won 22 GS. It was disgusting to hear that Steffi is the GOAT year after year but now Serena will end this once and for all. In my book she already did.
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