Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams? - Page 4 - TennisForum.com
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post #46 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:08 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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Yes because that's really worked.




Laughable. All great female singles players (except Seles) are also doubles champions. Court, Graf, Wills, Navratilova, Evert, Williams, King, Connolly, Lenglen.

So I don't see why you can't use doubles as a tiebreaker when considering greatness.
Oh, so is Seles weaker than other greats who have the same singles achievements as her, in your view? Or is this another example of you only applying a criteria for greatness when it suits players you like?
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post #47 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:10 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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they don't if we compare someone with a player who didn't play doubles, it can be used as a tiebreak if players are tied in singles achievements



because now there are plenty of tennis players who don't play doubles
What is now? 2013?

Clijsters, Williams x 2, Stosur, Kuznetsova are also doubles champions. And they all won slams in the last 4 years.

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post #48 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:11 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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only if we compare their over-all greatness. When it comes to singles achievements, it's absolutely irrelevant.
yes.... actually singles and doubles are "different" sports , it's like when discussing who is a greater skier using someone's achievemtns in cross country skiing and biathlon achievements in addition

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post #49 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:13 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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Oh, so is Seles weaker than other greats who have the same singles achievements as her, in your view? Or is this another example of you only applying a criteria for greatness when it suits players you like?
Is Maureen Connolly greater than Seles? Yes, if she apply the doubles criteria. It's a legitimate criteria to use in women's tennis because all the great singles players were accomplished doubles players also.

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post #50 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:14 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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only if we compare their over-all greatness. When it comes to singles achievements, it's absolutely irrelevant.
Well yes and I thought that's what we're talking about: overall greatness.

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post #51 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:15 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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What is now? 2013?

Clijsters, Williams x 2, Stosur, Kuznetsova are also doubles champions. And they all won slams in the last 4 years.
Henin, Seles, Mauresmo, Sharapova

and mens tour even more , but who cares ? is Tod Woodbridge greater than Nadal? or Mike Bryan than Djokovic?

in order not to answer on such questions it's better not to take it into discussion when we talk about individual greatness in singles....

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post #52 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 06:10 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Venus - 7 Slams
Henin - 7 Slams
Hingis- 5 Slams
Maria - 4 Slams
Kim - 4 Slams

Doubles do Not count in a players Singles Slam count. A players greatness in based on their singles accomplishments, not doubles.
And just where does it say that doubles do not count.

If you are comparing 2 players career for greatness

how can you not count doubles. Its part of their career

and doubles had a bearing on the singles play and their

greatness. That a player can excel and win a slam in

singles and then do the same in doubles is a testament

to their greatness. Although I can see why some do not

want to count doubles if their fav sucked at it. Henin

fans are very quick the yell " doubles don't count " in

every comparison of the two. And Henin played doubles

she just didn't win much at it.

Last edited by rjd1111; Feb 3rd, 2013 at 06:21 AM.
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post #53 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 06:20 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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Originally Posted by NashaMasha View Post
she would have won Slams in doubles if played with Serena for instance

But it's not the point, doubles - too different to singles

otherwise Pam Shriver, Natasha Zvereva >>>> Justine Henin, Monica Seles ))) And it's not true
No Its not true Shriver was a great doubles player. But

she didn't do as well in singles. It is quite an achievement

to win a singles Slam and also to win a doubles slam.

But the greater achievement is when you can do both.
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post #54 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 09:14 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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Originally Posted by PetraReeMona View Post
Exactly! He speaks the biggest load of crap I've read on here... and that's saying something

That sentence takes the cake though What's even funnier is though ........ he believes it

Oh dear.
By far.
I find dsanders posts so annoying, as they usually interrupt a thread with page long self conceited exercises in mental jerking. If you have something interesting to say, make it CLEAR and CONCISE, donīt delude yourself you are being so so clever with wordy blocks of boring nothingness.
Well, at least they are good for
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post #55 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

Very good discussion,guys

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post #56 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 10:33 AM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

Further eclipse Vee?! Maria hasn't even CAUGHT up to Hingis yet...

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post #57 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:41 PM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

She'd better get moving fast then because Venus has 5 wimbledons .
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post #58 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 03:43 PM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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Originally Posted by I_Will2 View Post
True, if we are comparing their singles record than doubles is irrelevant. However, Venus's singles record is still superiors to Sharapova's so Venus > Maria. If Maria wins 6-8 slams and Venus never wins another than Maria will have a strong case but she's gotta get there first.

Let's just say Maria ends her career with 7 slams and Venus ends with her 7. Who is greater than? I know CareerGrandSlam comes into play but wouldn't doubles also act as a tiebreaker? Just a question.
As far as I'm concerned - the two are separate - a best singles player comparison and a best doubles player comparison. If it's just a best tennis player without specifying singles or doubles - then that equates to best singles player for me since if anyone mentions women's tennis without specifying doubles or singles - the assumption is singles. If they say on TV we are now going to show a women's match - it will be singles. If it's a doubles match they are going to show - they specifically say we are now going to show a women's doubles match.

Anyway - I don't just count up number of slam titles to decide anyway (although that would be the first and most important thing to look at). I'd want to look at titles, titles per tournaments played, consistency particularly at slams, ranking, overall career W:L as well. But I wouldn't look at doubles record at all. That's for comparing players at doubles.

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post #59 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 04:23 PM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

Obviously, Masha has NOT eclipsed Venus in singles. In the Court-King era, and mostly before, the top singles players also played doubles on a regular basis. Navratilova-Shriver, Connolly played in a weak doubles eras. Evert rarely played doubles. The same is true of Connolly, Graf and others. Sveta is not a great singles player. She has periods of greatness but has been very inconsistant throughout her career. Kim, in another weak doubles era won a few slams, when she was not winning slams in her first career. Today's singles game takes more physical effort, so it is understandable that the top players cannot do both. The Williams, bigger and more talented than most today, only play slams, often on their days off from singles. Still, their doubles accomplishments are admirable but should not affect their ranking as singles players. Serena would still be the greatest of her era even if she Never won a doubles title. Most pushing doubles here are trying to elevate Venus over others, especially Henin.
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post #60 of 91 (permalink) Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 06:39 PM
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Re: Can Masha further eclipse Venus by winning more slams?

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Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Obviously, Masha has NOT eclipsed Venus in singles. In the Court-King era, and mostly before, the top singles players also played doubles on a regular basis. Navratilova-Shriver, Connolly played in a weak doubles eras. Evert rarely played doubles. The same is true of Connolly, Graf and others. Sveta is not a great singles player. She has periods of greatness but has been very inconsistant throughout her career. Kim, in another weak doubles era won a few slams, when she was not winning slams in her first career. Today's singles game takes more physical effort, so it is understandable that the top players cannot do both. The Williams, bigger and more talented than most today, only play slams, often on their days off from singles. Still, their doubles accomplishments are admirable but should not affect their ranking as singles players. Serena would still be the greatest of her era even if she Never won a doubles title. Most pushing doubles here are trying to elevate Venus over others, especially Henin.

" Today's singles game takes more physical effort, so it is understandable that the top players cannot do both."


This statement. So when a player does both, and is successful at both, Should it not count for something
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